View Full Version : Ammo, Velocity, Barrel Length, Effective Range
With the exception of some specific target models, rifles are weapons designed to send a projectile into the body mass of a living creature, causing, by velocity and mass, enough damage to stop the creature from functioning, whether a human combatant or a game animal or a pest. Semi auto rifles with detachable box magazines such as the M4 are weapons designed specifically to maximize killing effectiveness for a foot soldier, with a round designed for humans (as opposed to game) and enough rounds to allow for repeated hits on one or multiple adversaries.
Starting from that proposition, what range are you comfortable using for M4/AR derivative weapon for its intended purpose with typical military or bulk full metal jacket ammunition?
I ask, because I read regularly how someone is going to take their 10.3 or 11.5 micro self defense carbine out to 150-300 yards, etc. Yet, a little math done a long time ago told me my 12.5” was generally good to between 75-100 yards depending on ammo selection. I don’t recall efficacy of most bulk ammo through a 16” barrel, but I don’t think it was 600 yards. This is not to say that a round from my 12.5” at 150 yards isn’t going to end a life or cause a really bad day. Rather... I’m asking whether that is the good, reasonable, or (to use game hunting terminology though the situation is not the same) ethical thing to expect of a chosen weapon.
Note: None of us want to use our carbines for their original purpose. I get that. But then people will bring up “SHTF” and similar, so it does seem like something that has value in discussion.
Considering most people* (*generalization without concrete evidence) don’t purchase true defensive ammo, instead using various FMJ .223 or 5.56 loads, with some Mk262 thrown in for good measure, are a majority of AR owners deluding themselves?
For those that use their AR derivatives for their original purpose, what do you find to be a reasonable expectation of your current carbine, specifically as relates to distance and ammo choice?
If nothing else, I hope this makes people consider their own expectations. Or someone can tell me I’m way off base.
grizzlyblake
06-22-20, 16:13
My ARs are for defense or offense if needed from human adversaries. I settled on 16” barrels, Speer and Federal 62gr bonded SP, and Aimpoints for my expected use. I would guess that’s 200yd and in which keeps velocity above 1800fps for reliable expansion.
I would think 500 yards but I've never killed anyone so......The iron sights on these guns go to 500, just a thought.
PB
My handload, using a 65 grain Sierra GameKing should have a muzzle velocity of 2565 from my 11.5" Sionics (using Ramshot TAC). I haven't chrono'd it yet, so I'll use what QuickLOAD shows.
Sierra Infinity shows that using 1800 fps as my velocity limit for expansion, the velocity drops below 1800 fps at 500 yards. It's got an MRO, so I will simply consider it's maximum effective range to be limited by my ability to deliver a solid impact on target, likely between 250 and 300 yards.
With the 16" with a 1-6 LPVO (and a solid shooting position) effectiveness to the 1800 fps point at 650 yards sounds very reasonable.
Those that use FMJ for anything besides training/bunching paper/ringing steel are....well, I was raised that if I can't say something nice....
My 10.5 SBR throws Federal 62 gr loads between 2575 (LE223T3) and 2650 fps (XM556FBIT3). This should put the expansion distance out to 350 or 400 yards or so using 1350 as minimum expansion velocity.
The 62 Gr Barnes TSX at 2665 should be good to 275 or so yards or so using 1900 as M.E.V.
Winchester Ranger 64gr at 2600 should be good to 300 or so using M.E.V. of 1600
These are from memory without consulting a ballistics chart but should be pretty darn close as I was researching this not too long ago.
Edit to add: These velocities were measured with a SilencerCo Omega on the gun
I only have one can of Mil Ball. All else is 75-77 gr. So 500 yards is highly doable with that bullet our of a 14.5" (I'd have to have binoculars to I.D. a bad guy, but I could let the air out of them with a dot or irons.)
vicious_cb
06-22-20, 19:06
Take a look at the .308 vs 6.5C thread. As distance increases the importance of terminal ballistics becomes less and less and it becomes more about getting hits on target. The problem with shooting ball ammo at distance is its poor accuracy.
I have used a 10.5" barrelled rifle and a 11.5 ", a 14.5" and a 20".
I always tried to stay with guns that allowed me to use 55 grain rounds over the 63grain green tip because it worked better. Most real shooting unless your in the middle of a flat desert will be much closer than you think, 100 to 150 max, most of it will be 75 yards or less in urban settings.
...
Those that use FMJ for anything besides training/bunching paper/ringing steel are....well, I was raised that if I can't say something nice....
Real M193 pressure spec out of my KAC SR-15 LPR (18" barrel) on a 20~30lb dog worked exceptionally well. In a dead flat full out hard run towards me, the round entered the open mouth and absolutely stopped the front in place and the rear end came up and over. Seriously, it was like that dog hit an absolutely impenetrable wall.
The 55gr FMJ hand grenaded in the body with no fragments breaking the skin. I'd call that a win.
In terms of being effective at a range, it really depends on the target. Are they wearing a T-shirt or Leather jacket? Are they sober or bulletproof thanks to modern street drugs or booze?
If I'm shooting at ~200 yards, I have time to shoot again if I need too. Closer in, even M193 will work if you get reasonable shot placement. DRT works the same whether using bulk blaster ammo or an AFRICAN boomer! In fact, I dare say my M193 is more effective in an anti-personnel role than my 470NE or any of my big CZ 550's (9.3x62 through 458 Lott).
grizzlyblake
06-23-20, 10:42
How about just buy ammo that is designed for shooting people instead of justifying cheap ball ammo? It's odd that this isn't a thing when it comes to pistols. People realize 9mm NATO ball sucks compared to any good JHP bullet.
Yeah, a thousand rounds of 62gr Bonded SP costs a little money, but this is a forum dedicated to duty ARs, not garagebuiltAK.net.
How about just buy ammo that is designed for shooting people instead of justifying cheap ball ammo? It's odd that this isn't a thing when it comes to pistols. People realize 9mm NATO ball sucks compared to any good JHP bullet.
Yeah, a thousand rounds of 62gr Bonded SP costs a little money, but this is a forum dedicated to duty ARs, not garagebuiltAK.net.Misers in the 2A community brings out the absolute worst in people.
And I've seen at least three persons trying to justify 9mm ball over HSTs or GD's.
In fact, when the scares all started, they bought up all the balls, and didn't buy the .223 TSX's, Fusions, GDSP's, or Nosler bonded. Same for the pistol calibers too. I just don't get it, ball is important for training, but none of the defensive stuff?
How about just buy ammo that is designed for shooting people instead of justifying cheap ball ammo? It's odd that this isn't a thing when it comes to pistols. People realize 9mm NATO ball sucks compared to any good JHP bullet.
Yeah, a thousand rounds of 62gr Bonded SP costs a little money, but this is a forum dedicated to duty ARs, not garagebuiltAK.net.
Because people seem to have this weird notion that for some reason standard ball is best or all they want to use, or in SHTF you wont be able to find good ammo. OK maybe, but lets deal with that situation when were get there. Do any LE agencies actually use standard ball ammo in their guns? I doubt it. Yeah its odd people have no issue going out and getting a few boxes of HSTs for their pistol but wont shell out for some Gold dots or similar for the AR.
grizzlyblake
06-23-20, 12:41
I think it shows a disconnect with the real world and perceived use. Guys think they will actually use their CCW so they buy the right ammo for the job. The use of an AR is still some Hollywood fantasy so they buy cases of cheap ball envisioning a SHTF war zone or something.
I’m not opposed to stacks of ball ammo to be used for practice. I keep 500 per pistol and 1000 per rifle minimum just for that. I think it’s prudent to factor in good defense ammo and I personally use a minimum of two mag fills per gun. If you have 5 pistol mags you need enough defense ammo to fill them twice. Same with rifles. 10 AR mags needs 600 defense rounds minimum.
My ARs are for defense or offense if needed from human adversaries. I settled on 16” barrels, Speer and Federal 62gr bonded SP, and Aimpoints for my expected use. I would guess that’s 200yd and in which keeps velocity above 1800fps for reliable expansion.
I use 63 grain Sierra SMP's for the same reasons. Also from a 16" barrel.
kwg
I won't tell you where I'm from, but yes, yes there is at least one agency that uses Winchester white box 55 gr ball. Oh, and I won't describe their rifles. Your brain would explode and anyone from the agency would know I was talking about them.
I won't tell you where I'm from, but yes, yes there is at least one agency that uses Winchester white box 55 gr ball. Oh, and I won't describe their rifles. Your brain would explode and anyone from the agency would know I was talking about them.Mini-14?
Do any LE agencies actually use standard ball ammo in their guns? I doubt it.
Sadly, more than you think.
How about just buy ammo that is designed for shooting people instead of justifying cheap ball ammo? It's odd that this isn't a thing when it comes to pistols. People realize 9mm NATO ball sucks compared to any good JHP bullet.
Yeah, a thousand rounds of 62gr Bonded SP costs a little money, but this is a forum dedicated to duty ARs, not garagebuiltAK.net.
Sometimes it is scarcity. Sometimes it is to avoid price gouging. Sometimes you don't need uber-premium stuff to achieve DRT.
How many of us are shooting through windshields, sheetrock, etc.?
For me it is not about defeating armor but, something like a feral hog who is a tough critter for 5.56 just like a Jihadi wearing body armor of unknown pedigree.
In a self-defense shooting, how many of us will use a 5.56 rifle where M193 won't fragment upon impact? M855 is a bit more problematic for me but, is appropriate for use on hogs.
In all cases, up gunning to a 6.8SPC or 308W will help improve the odds of success.
Misers in the 2A community brings out the absolute worst in people.
And I've seen at least three persons trying to justify 9mm ball over HSTs or GD's.
In fact, when the scares all started, they bought up all the balls, and didn't buy the .223 TSX's, Fusions, GDSP's, or Nosler bonded. Same for the pistol calibers too. I just don't get it, ball is important for training, but none of the defensive stuff?
I doubt it is misers in the 2A community. More like a liberal gun hater or grandma who didn't own a firearm when shopping and bought some random pistol from the local ripoff artist and then found the 'blue light special' on ammo for a firearm they really knew nothing about. Panics are what they are!
While I have some nice 62 grain loads in pretty little brown boxes(and mags), have you seen what 55 grain (193) does at close "urban" settings? I'm certain some have, they aren't exactly "ice pick" wounds are they?
Mark, if it is permitted, do you have any reputable links that would demonstrate this usage of M193 in an urban scenario? I am curious as a reference.
I’m not an ammo snob. I’ve got my bedside read to go with a coupled mag of Gold Dot + M193 (...no longer zero’d for this) and another coupled mag of all IMI 77gr. Then I have a box of Wolf Gold for practice and a bunch of XM193 for when the Wolf Gold runs out if I can’t beat $.28/rd for brass. I’d have no problem running the XM193 through my SBR and expecting really good results at closer range. It just isn’t going to work as well as defensive rounds that need lower velocity and can therefore reach out a little further. But still, I’m not going to reach out that far from a 12.5” barrel and expect a critter to drop on impact.
Sometimes it is scarcity. Sometimes it is to avoid price gouging. Sometimes you don't need uber-premium stuff to achieve DRT.
How many of us are shooting through windshields, sheetrock, etc.?
For me it is not about defeating armor but, something like a feral hog who is a tough critter for 5.56 just like a Jihadi wearing body armor of unknown pedigree.
In a self-defense shooting, how many of us will use a 5.56 rifle where M193 won't fragment upon impact? M855 is a bit more problematic for me but, is appropriate for use on hogs.
In all cases, up gunning to a 6.8SPC or 308W will help improve the odds of success.
I am 3 for 3 on taking feral hogs with 223/5.56.
Two were with federal fusion 62 grain and one was with Wolf Gold 55 grain. All three were sows in the 80 to 130 lbs range - not exactly monsters.
If you shoot em in the head or shoulder, they tend to die. Is 6.8 better? Yes. But it’s not absolutely necessary. Also we kill them for extermination not for eating. If they run off into the woods and die, then mission accomplished.
I don't "have" data on who uses it or once did. Just observed usage at the street level. I can say that if arm stuck, a piece of skin may keep keep the arm hanging to the body. Chest hits(2) at close range will result in trauma, and a lifeless flop to the earth(55 193). 62 bonded (TBBC)one shot center chest is lights out and although odd, 55 TRU, angular to the face will be an emboldened felon with one eye and half a face.
My opinion, If all I had was good 193, I would sleep well. If you can obtain some good in essence soft point and/or bonded, 62 grain loads, better but you would sleep just as well.
Mini-14?
Nope, home brewed Ar's. The whole department besides a couple that bought and qualified with their own. I'd say that 90% didn't make it through the first qual without jamming, and I actually saw a catastrophic failure from pulling back the charging handle. I'm not kidding. With my own eyes.
Nope, home brewed Ar's. The whole department besides a couple that bought and qualified with their own. I'd say that 90% didn't make it through the first qual without jamming, and I actually saw a catastrophic failure from pulling back the charging handle. I'm not kidding. With my own eyes.
WTF kind of catastrophic failure was brought about from charging the weapon? I’m asking because I have a vivid imagination and want to be able to sleep at night.
Sent from 80ms in the future
While I have some nice 62 grain loads in pretty little brown boxes(and mags), have you seen what 55 grain (193) does at close "urban" settings? I'm certain some have, they aren't exactly "ice pick" wounds are they?
M193 for me doesn't ICE PICK at the ranges I use it. If your impact velocity is good, it will fragment well and do a great energy dump.
M193 for me doesn't ICE PICK at the ranges I use it. If your impact velocity is good, it will fragment well and do a great energy dump.
Like I said, I guess I should have spelled it out more clearly.
Thanks for this thread from a newbie. I understand 9mm ammo pretty darn well, but have been somewhat confused with the 223/556 platform. Am I understanding the basics that for target practice .223/55 gr., but for defensive should be > or = 62 gr. bonded, soft point or hollow point?
I just bought some of this for home defense...
https://www.speer.com/ammunition/gold_dot/rifle/gold_dot_rifle_personal_protection/19-24461.html
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Diamondback
06-25-20, 13:52
WTF kind of catastrophic failure was brought about from charging the weapon? I’m asking because I have a vivid imagination and want to be able to sleep at night.
Sent from 80ms in the future
Only things I could guess would be a slamfire out-of-battery, or a recoil spring so weak it couldn't shove the bolt carrier back into the upper preventing disassembly.
Dean Speir used to have an impressive gallery of catastrophic failures on The Gun Zone before he folded it, this sounds like something that would belong there.
WTF kind of catastrophic failure was brought about from charging the weapon? I’m asking because I have a vivid imagination and want to be able to sleep at night.
Sent from 80ms in the future
Jerked the ass end out of a polymer lower. Dude stood there staring at the charging handle in his hand. I'm currently sitting here thinking of how an AR fits together, and I can't envision how that even happened, but I was standing right next to him and saw it with my own eyes. I couldn't figure it out then, and I can't figure it out now.
Only things I could guess would be a slamfire out-of-battery, or a recoil spring so weak it couldn't shove the bolt carrier back into the upper preventing disassembly.
Dean Speir used to have an impressive gallery of catastrophic failures on The Gun Zone before he folded it, this sounds like something that would belong there.
The bolt never even had the chance to strip a round out of the magazine. I'm serious when I say he pulled the charging handle back, and it destroyed the lower. It wasn't a slam fire, it was pure freakishness.
Certainly not the optimum choice, but hasn't M193/M855 killed an awful lot of people at varying ranges over the decades? Some folks still like the old-fashioned 20 inch barrel, even though the 16-inch barrel has close to the same range/fragmentation capability with the same ammo (I think?).
Thanks for this thread from a newbie. I understand 9mm ammo pretty darn well, but have been somewhat confused with the 223/556 platform. Am I understanding the basics that for target practice .223/55 gr., but for defensive should be > or = 62 gr. bonded, soft point or hollow point?
I just bought some of this for home defense...
https://www.speer.com/ammunition/gold_dot/rifle/gold_dot_rifle_personal_protection/19-24461.html
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
I will not pretend to be the expert. However, the key is balancing your ammo type and needed velocity, and understanding at what point your chosen ammo will no longer have appropriate velocity to work as designed.
A short barrel results in decreased velocity, which results in reduced effective range for any ammo, but this is more pronounced with ball ammo.
Also, you bought good ammo.
I will not pretend to be the expert. However, the key is balancing your ammo type and needed velocity, and understanding at what point your chosen ammo will no longer have appropriate velocity to work as designed.
A short barrel results in decreased velocity, which results in reduced effective range for any ammo, but this is more pronounced with ball ammo.
Also, you bought good ammo.Thanks for the explanation. The rifle in question has a 16" barrel, mid-length gas system, chambered in 5.56. I am wanting to do target shooting out to eventually 100 yds, but for home defense due to my environs I can't imagine wanting to go beyond 50 yds, probably would be much less (pistol range).
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Misers in the 2A community brings out the absolute worst in people.
And I've seen at least three persons trying to justify 9mm ball over HSTs or GD's.
In fact, when the scares all started, they bought up all the balls, and didn't buy the .223 TSX's, Fusions, GDSP's, or Nosler bonded. Same for the pistol calibers too. I just don't get it, ball is important for training, but none of the defensive stuff?
How much are you going to train vs how many gun fights do you perceive happening?
I was forced to carry ball ammo in all our weapons for years. We made it work, terrorist died. Some times a lot of them on a weekly basis.
Is it nice to have the most modern self defense ammo, of course it is. But just don't freak out if all you have is ball, just do what you do in every real shooting tactics and shot placement
vicious_cb
06-26-20, 04:11
Most real shooting unless your in the middle of a flat desert will be much closer than you think, 100 to 150 max, most of it will be 75 yards or less in urban settings.
I like how everyone just glossed over this most important point, instead focusing on "muh effective range". People need to get this boogaloo fantasy out of their heads that they'll be shooting at dudes over hundreds of yards.
I like how everyone just glossed over this most important point, instead focusing on "muh effective range". People need to get this boogaloo fantasy out of their heads that they'll be shooting at dudes over hundreds of yards.
Today the worse case scenario in the USA is the rioting.
Their is almost ZERO chance, that you will have to return fire at people just 150 meters from you. Note I said return fire, because you will not open fire at people that far away from you just for having a long gun in their hands. You will go to jail, if you shoot people 100 yards away that are burning down a store.
In the intifada, fought in arab occupied towns, the action was up close. Even snipers in over watch were making very short range shots.
Post WW2 the US Army did a study and not only did they find most infantry soldiers even on the front lines didn't fire a shot but if I renumber correctly the average range of shots were 70 yards.
I was a sniper so I love rifles. But I also ran a ton of covert ops, which is where I fell in love the small PCC concept. A small package that can be carried covertly even on your body, but gives you accurate shots out to 150 which is well beyond what you really will need. Down on power compared to a rifle, but trust me you hit a guy in a riot situation even with 9mm ball center mass, 99.99% of the time he will be out of the fight.
Thanks for this thread from a newbie. I understand 9mm ammo pretty darn well, but have been somewhat confused with the 223/556 platform. Am I understanding the basics that for target practice .223/55 gr., but for defensive should be > or = 62 gr. bonded, soft point or hollow point?
I just bought some of this for home defense...
https://www.speer.com/ammunition/gold_dot/rifle/gold_dot_rifle_personal_protection/19-24461.html
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
It isn’t s much the weight of the bullet, but rather the construction. Cheaper FMJ stuff is great at the range for training. For defense, I use the bonded stuff like the Federal loads or the Barnes solid copper TSX bullets loaded by various companies. Both those I listed come in different weights. I prefer 62gr, but the other weights will do well also.
The Speer load you bought will do well also. Like always, you need to put the bullet in the right spot.
Today the worse case scenario in the USA is the rioting.
Their is almost ZERO chance, that you will have to return fire at people just 150 meters from you. Note I said return fire, because you will not open fire at people that far away from you just for having a long gun in their hands. You will go to jail, if you shoot people 100 yards away that are burning down a store.
In the intifada, fought in arab occupied towns, the action was up close. Even snipers in over watch were making very short range shots.
Post WW2 the US Army did a study and not only did they find most infantry soldiers even on the front lines didn't fire a shot but if I renumber correctly the average range of shots were 70 yards.
I was a sniper so I love rifles. But I also ran a ton of covert ops, which is where I fell in love the small PCC concept. A small package that can be carried covertly even on your body, but gives you accurate shots out to 150 which is well beyond what you really will need. Down on power compared to a rifle, but trust me you hit a guy in a riot situation even with 9mm ball center mass, 99.99% of the time he will be out of the fight.
I appreciate the insight from experience.
This seems to be where I’m landing. My 11.5 and 12.5 5.56 are fine at any sort of interaction that could reasonably justified. And to your recent point... My most recent purchase is a Stribog. Smaller, lighter, less recoil (supposedly, picking it up tomorrow), less concussion in a confined area.
To the ever eloquent Vicious’ point, the idea that one needs to shoot further against people is a (dark) fantasy for most people. Hopefully this thread helps make that point, along with the reality that one shouldn’t plan/claim/expect a short SBR to be a do-all at any range, particularly with ball ammo.
I like how everyone just glossed over this most important point, instead focusing on "muh effective range". People need to get this boogaloo fantasy out of their heads that they'll be shooting at dudes over hundreds of yards.
I think about it all the time and I cant think of basically any situation where I would need to engage a target at over maybe 100 yards. So I try to set my stuff up with that in mind.
I think about it all the time and I cant think of basically any situation where I would need to engage a target at over maybe 100 yards. So I try to set my stuff up with that in mind.The Vegas shooter was shooting from 500 yards some odd away. What if a copycat or another tries and you're in a position to do something? I don't give a F what randoms think of this subject, Afghanistan and a home grown terrorist proved that at least myself should not get complacent with our marksmanship at range or terminal effects thinking any sort of cartridge will do.
Today the worse case scenario in the USA is the rioting.
Their is almost ZERO chance, that you will have to return fire at people just 150 meters from you. Note I said return fire, because you will not open fire at people that far away from you just for having a long gun in their hands. You will go to jail, if you shoot people 100 yards away that are burning down a store.
In the intifada, fought in arab occupied towns, the action was up close. Even snipers in over watch were making very short range shots.
Post WW2 the US Army did a study and not only did they find most infantry soldiers even on the front lines didn't fire a shot but if I renumber correctly the average range of shots were 70 yards.
I was a sniper so I love rifles. But I also ran a ton of covert ops, which is where I fell in love the small PCC concept. A small package that can be carried covertly even on your body, but gives you accurate shots out to 150 which is well beyond what you really will need. Down on power compared to a rifle, but trust me you hit a guy in a riot situation even with 9mm ball center mass, 99.99% of the time he will be out of the fight.This is not there though.
In Afghanistan long range firefights were a reality.
A home grown active shooter was shooting from 500 plus yards away. What if you were on a position to shoot back? That PCC would have done nothing. Me going to my car if I wasn't under fire or an unknown to the shooter's tunnel vision, would be better than a dead weight PCC.
Plus a rifle has superior terminal ballistics. We both know that FMJ will kill, but we both know that it takes a lot. Why on earth would we, should we be, hampered by the conventions of war when better is out there?
You guys do you, I'll continue to do me. The fantasy that we will never defend ourselves past 100 yards, even 50, is laughable to be honest.
You guys do you, I'll continue to do me. The fantasy that we will never defend ourselves past 100 yards, even 50, is laughable to be honest.
Then select the barrel length and ammunition for your required scenario. If you think it will be 500 yards, then you are going to need more than a short barrel.
Then select the barrel length and ammunition for your required scenario. If you think it will be 500 yards, then you are going to need more than a short barrel.I wouldn't be mentioning any of that if I already hadn't selected the barrel length, ammunition, etc to begin with.
You know people just amaze me.
They read a post here and don't really read it.
I posted about the current situation we face in a lot of our cities in the USA now.
People respond with the distance that troops are shooting in A-stan.
Really!
I also have clearly stated that I love rifles, I was a sniper.
I love PCC, make that small PCC, for PDW which means for us in the USA right now it very well will be covert carry.
Why is this so hard to understand. Different missions mean different tools. Duh!
You know people just amaze me.
They read a post here and don't really read it.
I posted about the current situation we face in a lot of our cities in the USA now.
People respond with the distance that troops are shooting in A-stan.
Really!
I also have clearly stated that I love rifles, I was a sniper.
I love PCC, make that small PCC, for PDW which means for us in the USA right now it very well will be covert carry.
Why is this so hard to understand. Different missions mean different tools. Duh!
Why a PCC instead of a SBR? I assume 9mm PCC vs 5.56 or 300 BO SBR. I would very much value even a brief explanation.
I think it's safe to say that when you talk about what works in violent riots, we should listen.
I have a 11.3" 5.56 AR pistol that will be my default "car gun" if the need arises. It's loud AF though.
Andy
You know people just amaze me.
They read a post here and don't really read it.
I posted about the current situation we face in a lot of our cities in the USA now.
People respond with the distance that troops are shooting in A-stan.
Really!
I also have clearly stated that I love rifles, I was a sniper.
I love PCC, make that small PCC, for PDW which means for us in the USA right now it very well will be covert carry.
Why is this so hard to understand. Different missions mean different tools. Duh!Because you clearly missed the point. In the US, your own logic, the Las Vegas Shooter. Was in the US. Mentioning Afghanistan was akin to you mentioning Israel. If you're going to apply what you learned there, then I can apply from what I learned over there just as much, that's REALLY why.Why not be well rounded? Why is that hard for you to understand as well?
Keep doing you, if you feel that it is right. Meanwhile I'll keep doing me and not change, because I know what's right just as much as you feel. Deal?
I have been stocking up on Black Hills 50 grain Barnes TSX as it's a terrific HD/LE round and since I have only been in urban environments for years, I'm not unhappy with it's relatively short effective range. If my calculations are correct using BC and the stated FPS for full expansion, I would not expect it to perform at 100% much past 165-175 yards. Does that mean it ain't gonna' kill ya at 200? No but if I'm understanding the OP's question, albeit with my ammo selection, this is my answer. I do have mags with handloaded and ASYM 70 grain TSXs as well (to simulate the .mil's "brown tip" round) that extend range by quite a bit out of my 16" barrels but at the expense of not being nearly as barrier blind as the 50 grain Black Hills loading. I know it isn't anything scientific but it is visually impressive to just obliterate 2 liter soda bottles filled with water at my 200 yard range in Jersey with the B.H. load
https://www.speer.com/ammunition/gold_dot/rifle/gold_dot_rifle_personal_protection/19-24461.html
Speer Gold Dots are a good choice. For home defense, light to mid-60's gr options are GTG. While I don't feel under-gunned with 55gr FMJ M193, I'd swap for Gold Dots without a doubt if they cost close to M193.
Today the worse case scenario in the USA is the rioting.
Their is almost ZERO chance, that you will have to return fire at people just 150 meters from you. Note I said return fire, because you will not open fire at people that far away from you just for having a long gun in their hands. You will go to jail, if you shoot people 100 yards away that are burning down a store. ...
True in certain contexts and problematic with racial politics today in the USA but, in some states, you can legally shoot someone committing a felony to stop a felony which ARSON is even if you don't own the thing being burned. Whether that is a reasonable thing to do or not is a different topic for a civilian.
IF no one is willing to stand up to rioters, including police, what will be left of our cities? That being said, I agree with some of the abuses being prosecuted as murder but, others are really more of a political and news event and not about justice. This isn't just a binary right or wrong thing and is various shades of the two depending on the specific circumstances. In no case is burning down or looting an independent store owner's business justified. Like the black grandma who asked where will I buy my prescriptions and groceries now? Lets be honest, it really hurts the people most we are trying to help.
At realistic self-defense distances, any centerfire rifle is pretty good option. FMJ ammo may not be best but, dead is dead.
The Vegas shooter was shooting from 500 yards some odd away. What if a copycat or another tries and you're in a position to do something? I don't give a F what randoms think of this subject, Afghanistan and a home grown terrorist proved that at least myself should not get complacent with our marksmanship at range or terminal effects thinking any sort of cartridge will do.
Being in a position to shoot the VEGAS shooter from 500 yards or more away is definitely a good skill to have. And in my case, my KAC SR-15 LPR is certainly capable of putting lead on target but, I'm going to grab my 7.62x51 if at all possible. Even a 6.5x55 Swede would be a better choice if available. Realistically, how many of us could find the target from 500 or more yards out in an urban setting and the ensuing confusion so, even though legal it is an extremely unlikely scenario. Even if it goes to trial, I'm confident 12 peers would not find me guilty in that scenario which is a valid defense of third parties even if you can't argue a direct threat to life (i.e. running away).
You know people just amaze me.
They read a post here and don't really read it.
I posted about the current situation we face in a lot of our cities in the USA now.
People respond with the distance that troops are shooting in A-stan.
Really!
I also have clearly stated that I love rifles, I was a sniper.
I love PCC, make that small PCC, for PDW which means for us in the USA right now it very well will be covert carry.
Why is this so hard to understand. Different missions mean different tools. Duh!
Exactly!
Being in a position to shoot the VEGAS shooter from 500 yards or more away is definitely a good skill to have. And in my case, my KAC SR-15 LPR is certainly capable of putting lead on target but, I'm going to grab my 7.62x51 if at all possible. Even a 6.5x55 Swede would be a better choice if available. Realistically, how many of us could find the target from 500 or more yards out in an urban setting and the ensuing confusion so, even though legal it is an extremely unlikely scenario. Even if it goes to trial, I'm confident 12 peers would not find me guilty in that scenario which is a valid defense of third parties even if you can't argue a direct threat to life (i.e. running away).Use what you're most confident in. But realistically as you speak of, why would I not want to be well rounded and have a do all rifle that I can use both in CQB and if the need be, for far away? Focusing on one and leaving the other is being complacent with horribly bad tunnel vision of preparedness.
Listen, we can argue all day and night, nobody is going to change what they do because their minds are already concluded. Best to carry or have ready what you think is appropriate and not worry about what the other fella does, uses, trains with, etc., as it does nothing to effect your focus and training to begin with here. And I think that we can all agree that at least people are trying to be prepared as best as possible rather than to be a defenseless subject of prey.
Being in a position to shoot the VEGAS shooter from 500 yards or more away is definitely a good skill to have.
FYI nobody in the world,could hit the Vegas shooter, with a rifle, from the ground below the hotel.
He was high up in the hotel and had built a shooting platform, well back from the window. The only way to shoot him would have been from a higher position either from a helicopter or from an other hotel.
I have actually never shot farther than 300 m and although I don't have eagle eyes, mine aren't bad and I've found that target discrimination at that point is difficult without a magnified optic. Even on the Army "pop up" course of fire, you have to be on your game or won't see the targets at 300 m when they come up. Although I do believe they are a bright orange now at West Point, where I've shot, rather than the green that they were before that blended in pretty well.
FYI nobody in the world,could hit the Vegas shooter, with a rifle, from the ground below the hotel.
He was high up in the hotel and had built a shooting platform, well back from the window. The only way to shoot him would have been from a higher position either from a helicopter or from an other hotel.Whose to say that the next active shooter will be shooting so high and with enough cover and concealment? Being able to effectively shot place at 500 is still a good skill to have and maintain.
Guys at Keating once organized were doing exactly that, uphill and further than 500 with rifles at haj using rocks for cover, so I wouldn't say no one because it simply isn't true.
hotrodder636
06-26-20, 14:46
Please continue to share your knowledge and experience. Many/most of us here appreciate it as we have a good idea what you were/are. Thank you.
You know people just amaze me.
They read a post here and don't really read it.
I posted about the current situation we face in a lot of our cities in the USA now.
People respond with the distance that troops are shooting in A-stan.
Really!
I also have clearly stated that I love rifles, I was a sniper.
I love PCC, make that small PCC, for PDW which means for us in the USA right now it very well will be covert carry.
Why is this so hard to understand. Different missions mean different tools. Duh!
MountainRaven
06-26-20, 16:43
I have a 11.3" 5.56 AR pistol that will be my default "car gun" if the need arises. It's loud AF though.
I think you answered (part) of your own question.
Plus PCCs can be quite a bit smaller than 5.56mm rifles - and even most 300 BLK rifles - and still run well. And thus you can conceal a PCC in a much smaller, less conspicuous bag than a 5.56/300BLK.
And last time I checked, there weren’t any really good defensive loads for 300 BLK, unless you’re willing to accept a lot of overpenetration. Or a regular failure to achieve appropriate penetration.
Glock9mm1990
06-26-20, 16:47
I think you answered (part) of your own question.
Plus PCCs can be quite a bit smaller than 5.56mm rifles - and even most 300 BLK rifles - and still run well. And thus you can conceal a PCC in a much smaller, less conspicuous bag than a 5.56/300BLK.
And last time I checked, there weren’t any really good defensive loads for 300 BLK, unless you’re willing to accept a lot of overpenetration. Or a regular failure to achieve appropriate penetration.
Barnes 110gr TSX is really the only good load for 300 as far as I know.
Let me be clear, being able to accurately shoot a rifle out to the limit of the caliber is great talent to have.
I was a sniper, actually rated as a master sniper, so I have rifle love.
But I also have operated in the middle of uprisings under cover, where discovery would mean being ripped to shreds. So I also know that a small PCC has it's place.
The issue in my mind as of this day in 2020 what is the scenario I will likely encounter in the USA, will
it be A) a 500 meter counter sniper shot B) facing a mob of marxist that might want to beat me severely or murder me.
I always stress that mission is what must drive your choices, not your emotions toward an inanimate object made of metal and plastic.
Barnes 110gr TSX is really the only good load for 300 as far as I know.
If you want less penetration, the 85gr Maker loads should do.
I’d usually insert my “under-penetration is worse than over-penetration” argument here, but I think I’ve made it already in this thread.
Risk assessments are everything. The PCC is not relevant to being pertinent with how I go about in my travels, has horrible ballistics, and has no place with me. You're just going to have to accept that very fact and stop worrying about it.
And my "mission" (point) is to stay alive. That means I avoid demonstrations and large gatherings, and I live in a rural area, there's only logic behind preferring only for a rifle, not one bit of emotion is to be found, just the facts and only the facts where a solid conclusion was made. You're going to have to accept that aspect as well, too.
I say we move on and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing to protect himself. You do you.
vicious_cb
06-26-20, 17:43
Let me be clear, being able to accurately shoot a rifle out to the limit of the caliber is great talent to have.
I was a sniper, actually rated as a master sniper, so I have rifle love.
But I also have operated in the middle of uprisings under cover, where discovery would mean being ripped to shreds. So I also know that a small PCC has it's place.
The issue in my mind as of this day in 2020 what is the scenario I will likely encounter in the USA, will
it be A) a 500 meter counter sniper shot B) facing a mob of marxist that might want to beat me severely or murder me.
I always stress that mission is what must drive your choices, not your emotions toward an inanimate object made of metal and plastic.
Yep, when people see a 10x optic on my rifle they're like "you think you're a sniper bro?". Nope its to see the dude crouched down behind the car at 100m with a lighter and bottle trying to set the building on fire.
People think precision shooting = distance shooting. For me precision shooting is shooting through a brick sized murder hole in the wall at 75m or putting a shot between the A-frame of car a partially exposed head at 150m is more important to me than shooting at steel silhouettes at 500m.
If I lived in a rural place, then the PCC would just be something fun to play with. I would have a 6.5 grendel or 6.5 creedmoor AR in my truck.
People think precision shooting = distance shooting.
Great post, especially the above.
Yep, when people see a 10x optic on my rifle they're like "you think you're a sniper bro?". Nope its to see the dude crouched down behind the car at 100m with a lighter and bottle trying to set the building on fire.
People think precision shooting = distance shooting. For me precision shooting is shooting through a brick sized murder hole in the wall at 200m or putting a shot between the A-frame of car a partially exposed head at 150m is more important to me than shooting at steel silhouettes at 500m.Right on.
If I lived in a rural place, then the PCC would just be something fun to play with. I would have a 6.5 grendel or 6.5 creedmoor AR in my truck.
I'm glad that we're finally getting it. We all don't live in the same states, same places, and so on. A lot of people get that disconnect where they only think of their own terrain and not others.
Depending on where I go, it's either a 5.56 AR15 or an AR10. From here to visit a friend doing TDY at Yuma? AR10 all day, nothing but hills, mountains, and desert for all three plus hours of driving. Through town? AR15, still lots of hills nothing major that requires more octane. Up into the mountain house? Ponderosa trees literally everywhere, AR10 all day too because there are gaps here and there with extreme distances.
I'm glad that we're finally getting it. We all don't live in the same states, same places, and so on. A lot of people get that disconnect where they only think of their own terrain and not others.
.
I have always stated mission is what tells us what we need to carry. I just drove across half the country went through some cities that had issues but never left the interstate.
Weapons in the car, Tavor due to it being legal in all the states I was driving through and it is as short as my SBR but doesn't need me to alert ATF on travel. 2 9mm pistols.
No PCC, because it didn't fit mission profile.
Today the worse case scenario in the USA is the rioting.
Their is almost ZERO chance, that you will have to return fire at people just 150 meters from you. Note I said return fire, because you will not open fire at people that far away from you just for having a long gun in their hands. You will go to jail, if you shoot people 100 yards away that are burning down a store.
In the intifada, fought in arab occupied towns, the action was up close. Even snipers in over watch were making very short range shots.
Post WW2 the US Army did a study and not only did they find most infantry soldiers even on the front lines didn't fire a shot but if I renumber correctly the average range of shots were 70 yards.
I was a sniper so I love rifles. But I also ran a ton of covert ops, which is where I fell in love the small PCC concept. A small package that can be carried covertly even on your body, but gives you accurate shots out to 150 which is well beyond what you really will need. Down on power compared to a rifle, but trust me you hit a guy in a riot situation even with 9mm ball center mass, 99.99% of the time he will be out of the fight.
The internet told me that this is a lie.
ColtSeavers
06-26-20, 20:43
Yep, when people see a 10x optic on my rifle they're like "you think you're a sniper bro?". Nope its to see the dude crouched down behind the car at 100m with a lighter and bottle trying to set the building on fire.
People think precision shooting = distance shooting. For me precision shooting is shooting through a brick sized murder hole in the wall at 75m or putting a shot between the A-frame of car a partially exposed head at 150m is more important to me than shooting at steel silhouettes at 500m.
Halle-effin-luja
I am so sick and tired of being counter pointed that statistically you'll never shoot more than blah blah yards and more than blah blah shots so a rds and .300blk will do it all...
Yoni,
What do you like for a small PCC?
I’m curious...as long as you don’t say “Uzi.”
Glock9mm1990
06-26-20, 22:01
If you want less penetration, the 85gr Maker loads should do.
I’d usually insert my “under-penetration is worse than over-penetration” argument here, but I think I’ve made it already in this thread.
Hard agree, over penetration is over blown and I would much rather have a round that does 20” in gel then a round that only does 9-10”.
MountainRaven
06-26-20, 22:17
The internet told me that this is a lie.
I recently rewatched Ian McCollum's interview with Ken Hackathorn on subguns: Ken said that a semi-auto triple tap from a subgun into a grapefruit-sized area of someone's sternum generally almost always has the intended impact on someone.
Hard agree, over penetration is over blown and I would much rather have a round that does 20” in gel then a round that only does 9-10”.
I'd rather have overpenetration than underpenetration, but the lack of appropriate defensive ammunition - in view of the many excellent options available for 5.56mm and 9mm - is just one more reason to not get into 300 BLK.
Glock9mm1990
06-26-20, 22:25
I recently rewatched Ian McCollum's interview with Ken Hackathorn on subguns: Ken said that a semi-auto triple tap from a subgun into a grapefruit-sized area of someone's sternum generally almost always has the intended impact on someone.
I'd rather have overpenetration than underpenetration, but the lack of appropriate defensive ammunition - in view of the many excellent options available for 5.56mm and 9mm - is just one more reason to not get into 300 BLK.
Couldn’t agree more, I personally don’t even see a practical use for 300 really. At least not for anything I need.
FYI nobody in the world,could hit the Vegas shooter, with a rifle, from the ground below the hotel.
He was high up in the hotel and had built a shooting platform, well back from the window. The only way to shoot him would have been from a higher position either from a helicopter or from an other hotel.
Yes, modern sniper tactics are an unrealistic scenario for most civilians. However, if the shooter can see me, I could see them. High angles with setbacks and small holes in hard walls is a vastly different scenario from most general civil disturbances. I'll leave various Arab conflict scenario specifics out the picture because the structure of our cities and buildings is enough different to be off-topic for this thread.
Most of the people on this site on a one-way mission to HELL could probably inflict significant damage from a barricaded position in most urban areas. However, even if all the good guys could do is harassing fire on a window frame or brick wall, it would probably significantly disrupt the shooter and give others time to attack the building, room, etc. the bad guy is in. I view this a bit like an armored car, all that does is buy you time to get out of the situation before your bulletproof windows or armor plates are defeated.
So yes, if I couldn't put lead on the Vegas shooter due to angles and setbacks, I would still prefer to be able to put rounds on the window frame. Who knows, maybe GOD, or luck, is on my side and a ricochet or bullet fragments would affect the outcome.
In the end if I lack the skill or the tools, I am nothing but a lamb at the slaughter. With a good rifle and skill, I have a choice. ;)
Let me be clear, being able to accurately shoot a rifle out to the limit of the caliber is great talent to have.
I was a sniper, actually rated as a master sniper, so I have rifle love.
But I also have operated in the middle of uprisings under cover, where discovery would mean being ripped to shreds. So I also know that a small PCC has it's place.
The issue in my mind as of this day in 2020 what is the scenario I will likely encounter in the USA, will
it be A) a 500 meter counter sniper shot B) facing a mob of marxist that might want to beat me severely or murder me.
I always stress that mission is what must drive your choices, not your emotions toward an inanimate object made of metal and plastic.
Yoni, I have huge respect for you and your perspectives. You are a valuable contributor to this site and I am thankful to be around to benefit from it.
As you said, what is right or best for one person or scenario is unlikely to be best for someone else. In my case, what I have in my safe at home does me ABSOLUTELY no good if I am not at home. Then there is the issue of skill and most of us, to be honest, have enough trouble being skilled with one rifle, much less several so, I'll leave my WALTER MITTY fantasies to my dreams and use a less than optimal rifle for CQB and concealment that I can run well. In my case, if I can grab an SBR from under or behind the seat of a car, I could also grab my KAC SR-15 LPR.
Will 8" of extra barrel length make a difference? Only if I can run it better when the 'pucker factor' is off the scale. If the zombie or marxist horde is upon me, I have probably already lost whether I have an MP-5/Uzi or M-16 so, unless other people are around to support me, it is 'game over' for me in such a scenario with the other detail being how many 'zombies' I took with me before the end.
So yes, understand the scenario and what your options are. However, most of us will only fight if the time comes with what we have on or with us at the time whether that is a simple 9mm pistol or deer rifle or waterfowl shotgun. In my case, I have an SBR I could use but, I choose to take my KAC SR-15 LPR with me like I carry my billfold or pocket knife.
If I lived in a rural place, then the PCC would just be something fun to play with. I would have a 6.5 grendel or 6.5 creedmoor AR in my truck.
Absolutely! What is appropriate for someone in rural East Texas versus metropolitan or big city Dallas/Fort Worth is drastically different. In my case right now, I'm avoiding big cities and venture out to larger places only as needed when there is no known protest activity. That doesn't mean a gang banger or robber won't cross my path but, chances are slim to none. Big city Dallas is a different story and one I avoid. My biggest fear out here is Meth related craziness. Chemistry fueled problems are the real issue where I live in East Texas, as they were in Alabama and Arizona. In my travels around the USA previously, marijuana usage was the worst I had to deal with but, today harder drugs are the reality.
I never Chronographed a 20" M-16 with any issue ammo. I did chronograph my 16" Sig with 6 different types of ammo, from 40 to 75 grain. The average drop in muzzle velocity from what was on the box is right at 350 fps. They all dropped below the "standard" 1800 fps at between 275 and 375 yards. None were MilSpec, all were commercial .223 from Federal, Winchester, PMC, Barnes and HPR. A shortened AR (less than 20") is NOT a long-range rifle. I would guess that the average range to the VC we were shooting at was not much more than 100 yards, certainly no more than 200. Most engagements in the bush were very close. The AR itself was never designed as a long-range weapon. Reducing the barrel length to make it a Close Combat (indoors) weapon made it less so. If I ever have to use mine, it will be for targets I can hit at less than 200 yards. Preferably, less than 100. Further out, I have multiple varieties of Model 700 Remington.
If only there were other calibers for the AR15, even the AR10 that can be above or right at 2,000 FPS for those ranges if that is what you're seeking...oh wait, there already is, if that is what you are after
It really makes my head shake the lengths people go to try to change minds, which usually never happens anyways. Besides, if I need to bring two totally different rifles with when in fact only one is needed as a do all, then I'm already doing it wrong.
Plus why would any person in their right mind be using regular ball when there's better, much better ammunition out there like ELD's, TMK's, BSP's, that were made specifically for long range terminal effectiveness etc? And even if ball was being used, how many did the Vegas shooter kill over 500 yards with just ball, hm?
Plus we haven't fought the VC since the early 70's, that was then, things are different now. The people we fought and bullet technology along with propellants, have changed. Then there's the issue of body armor that's being seen more common, where a precise shot even at 100 yards, irons simply won't do. Times have changed, we need to change with it.
Plus we're supposed to be a nation of riflemen, let's at least try to act like it instead of trying to discourage it, which is then not being beneficial at all.
I really like the B&T TP9, for it's size and light weight. But any of the B&T guns would work, I have not shot them all but they have such a great name, I don't hesitate to say they are good to go.
Other guns the CZ micro scorpian, MP5k.
I don't like the Uzi's due to weight, and they didn't modernize the guns they way they should.
Steve_in_Allentown
06-28-20, 08:26
WTF kind of catastrophic failure was brought about from charging the weapon?About a thousand years ago in BCT (D-3-3) at Ft Dix I watched a guy on the firing line blow up his M-16. This guy wasn't the brightest bulb in the box and had loaded a round from the magazine in the normal manner without realizing there was a live round already sitting in the chamber. Tip of the bullet struck the primer and KA-BOOM.
Those that use FMJ for anything besides training/bunching paper/ringing steel are....well, I was raised that if I can't say something nice....
Funny, but thousands upon thousands of people have been killed by M193... Just like thousands upon thousands that have been killed by 9MM FMJs.
Are there better loads? Of course. But I doubt I'll get any takers to be my moving target holder downrange for some M193.
I always stress that mission is what must drive your choices, not your emotions toward an inanimate object made of metal and plastic.
Game, set, and match right here gents.
Nobody in this thread has stated that M193 isn't lethal.
When shopping for the couple hundred rounds to use as your primary HD ammo, you walk past the ammo loaded with Speer Gold Dot and TBBC, Barnes TSX, Sierra GameKings and Partitions, etc and select FMJs?
Do hunters going after antelope and deer choose FMJ over ammo loaded with Nosler Ballistic Tips, Accubonds, & Partitions, ,Hornady SSTs and InterLocks, etc? Nope. They choose the best bullet for the intended purpose. Is ball better than all of the above bullets, that have been designed with terminal performance as a critical aspect?
How is my goal of quickly putting a bad guy down as quickly and reliably (to end a threat) any different than a hunter trying to put a deer down as quickly and reliably (to not loose game)?
ColtSeavers
06-28-20, 10:59
Nobody in this thread has stated that M193 isn't lethal.
When shopping for the couple hundred rounds to use as your primary HD ammo, you walk past the ammo loaded with Speer Gold Dot and TBBC, Barnes TSX, Sierra GameKings and Partitions, etc and select FMJs?
Do hunters going after antelope and deer choose FMJ over ammo loaded with Nosler Ballistic Tips, Accubonds, & Partitions, ,Hornady SSTs and InterLocks, etc? Nope. They choose the best bullet for the intended purpose. Is ball better than all of the above bullets, that have been designed with terminal performance as a critical aspect?
How is my goal of quickly putting a bad guy down as quickly and reliably (to end a threat) any different than a hunter trying to put a deer down as quickly and reliably (to not loose game)?
And that's exactly why threads like this one are a complete circle jerk.
People justifying being cheap instead practical and trying to play it off as being prudent.
How far is m193 or m855 terminally effective? As far as you can shoot it accurately, it'll put holes in things. How far will it reliably be terminally effective? Again, up to your ability.
Oh, you wanted seconday wounding characteristics? Then you should've chosen a different round designed to offer such, not fmj that can hopefully be forced to produce secondary wounding characterietics, from fragmentation for example, in certain scenarios.
I now eagerly await the "I'm going to be hunting Elk at 500 yards, which woould you choose between .22 murder hornet and .300 poop out. Any suggestions of neither or something else are not welcome" thread.
vicious_cb
06-28-20, 12:49
Funny, but thousands upon thousands of people have been killed by M193... Just like thousands upon thousands that have been killed by 9MM FMJs.
Are there better loads? Of course. But I doubt I'll get any takers to be my moving target holder downrange for some M193.
Please dont go down this line of arguing. This is exactly how ammo discussions go on TOS and how you get people like Molon or DocGKR to leave the playground to the children.
Treat ammo like you would any other piece of gear. Do research and buy the best s*** you can afford and stop worrying about it.
Treat ammo like you would any other piece of gear. Do research and buy the best s*** you can afford and stop worrying about it.
This.
Did you really ask that question? Name a sizeable town or city in Viet Nam.. Think 1968. Urban warfare? Hue. Khe Sahn. Saigon. Does no one read history? Watch the History Channel or the Smithsonian Channel. They rerun it from time to time. Find an old guy like me, late 70's, Marine or Army Infantry.
I really like the B&T TP9, for it's size and light weight. But any of the B&T guns would work, I have not shot them all but they have such a great name, I don't hesitate to say they are good to go.
Other guns the CZ micro scorpian, MP5k.
I don't like the Uzi's due to weight, and they didn't modernize the guns they way they should.
My Mini-Uzi isn't as nice as an MP-5F which is a super smooth shooter. However, the Mini-Uzi is a nice compact package. Granted it is not setup for all the modern do-dads but, still it is a great option IMHO. The full-size Uzi is a different topic being much larger and heavier.
Nobody in this thread has stated that M193 isn't lethal.
When shopping for the couple hundred rounds to use as your primary HD ammo, you walk past the ammo loaded with Speer Gold Dot and TBBC, Barnes TSX, Sierra GameKings and Partitions, etc and select FMJs?
Do hunters going after antelope and deer choose FMJ over ammo loaded with Nosler Ballistic Tips, Accubonds, & Partitions, ,Hornady SSTs and InterLocks, etc? Nope. They choose the best bullet for the intended purpose. Is ball better than all of the above bullets, that have been designed with terminal performance as a critical aspect?
How is my goal of quickly putting a bad guy down as quickly and reliably (to end a threat) any different than a hunter trying to put a deer down as quickly and reliably (to not loose game)?
I get your point but, my 'deer' rifle isn't loaded with only 5 rounds either. At 4 times the cost, modern bullets have their place but, I'd rather have 4 boxes of FMJ's versus 1 box of whatever the pick of the litter is for modern bullets. DRT doesn't care what your bullet choice is. If one won't do the job, there are plenty more to follow up. If economics allow it, sure I'd rather have 4 boxes of the modern wonder rounds but I also won't feel unduly deprived if M193 is all I have.
Lead on target is what counts. A wonder bullet won't do much if you don't put it where it counts. ;)
The thread is starting to wander and finds the trails end. Let's try to get it back or it will be closed.
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