View Full Version : Reconsidering the Bayonet in Modern Riot Control
As someone who has purchased AK's and AR's since the early 1980's, the bayonet was always a cool accessory to add to your collection. You'd put it on, play with it, then put it away in a box somewhere. For me, I always thought it would be a nice addition to your defensive position in a riot or defense of home or business.
I was in the African Countries of Chad (1988) and Somalia (1993). Just talking to the locals and soldiers from other nations, I was informed that the African Black has a phobia of getting stabbed or cut with a blade. They will charge a position facing gunfire, but they will think twice about running headlong into a rifle with a bayonet attached. I heard this from more than one source. I have always wondered if it was in the DNA and would be something to consider for the American rioting population?
A bayonet can give you stand off capability when dealing with a violent mob. Grabbing the barrel of your weapon with a mounted bayonet increases the risk of getting cut or seriously injured with a puncture wound. It can buy you time as well when doing a mag dump ammo reload. It could also be an ammo saver - a dead person you just shot during a riot is not the focus of a fellow rioter and they will return later to deal with the corpse. A stabbed rioter rolling around on the ground in pain and bleeding demands the focus of fellow rioters, and could take them out of the action in providing assistance.
Finally, you wonder about the mindset of a rioter when they see an armed defender sporting a bayonet on their weapon. Probably no different than a White guy in the hood sporting a big-ass Hillbilly Bowie knife which advertises this guy is someone not to mess with.
Diamondback
06-25-20, 12:26
"RAAAAAAAAAAAACIST!" :p
In all seriousness, as an armchair student I've been thinking along similar lines--I recalled having read something about the Marines still teaching bayonet fighting for psychological reasons, and wondered if there were any really good reads on the psychological and other effects of Fixing Bayonets.
militarymoron
06-25-20, 12:28
I don't have enough (any) expertise in this area to comment on a bayonet for riot control, but I always thought that the clear riot-control shields that police use should have a few pokey attachments facing the front. They could be non-lethal, but uncomfortable enough to prevent people from pushing against or touching the shield.
WickedWillis
06-25-20, 12:30
I can't wait for chainsaw bayonets
WickedWillis
06-25-20, 12:32
I don't have enough (any) expertise in this area to comment on a bayonet for riot control, but I always thought that the clear riot-control shields that police use should have a few pokey attachments facing the front. They could be non-lethal, but uncomfortable enough to prevent people from pushing against or touching the shield.
I have thought of this as well. Almost like those little spikes in punk leather gear. Something pokey enough to get a response
I remember a conversation with a buddy who ran convoy security in Iraq early on. He said it was always interesting how pointing an M4 or a M9 at a driver often didn't get much a response, but folks sure moved fast when you tapped on their window with a bayonet. Big knives tend to get attention from people. Way out of my lane, but his experience was one I found interesting.
I like the idea. Does anyone make a lug adapter for the modern rifle with the free float tubes?
A bayonet can give you stand off capability when dealing with a violent mob. Grabbing the barrel of your weapon with a mounted bayonet increases the risk of getting cut or seriously injured with a puncture wound. It can buy you time as well when doing a mag dump ammo reload.
A squad with fixed bayonets perhaps.
One guy depending on a fixed bayonet is in serious trouble if the mob gets close enough that he needs to make a point with it. Unless he has some way to funnel the crowd down (like at a gate or a door) to reduce the number of attackers he's facing at any given time.
There was footage of a guy with a recurve bow trying to keep people away from his car. It worked for a short period of time but the mob swarmed him from multiple sides and it went badly.
A stabbed rioter rolling around on the ground in pain and bleeding demands the focus of fellow rioters, and could take them out of the action in providing assistance.
Don't overestimate the bond between rioters.
Bayo might add a deterrent to predators trolling for easy victims. Overall, buttoned up appearance/posture would help too.
I remember a conversation with a buddy who ran convoy security in Iraq early on. He said it was always interesting how pointing an M4 or a M9 at a driver often didn't get much a response, but folks sure moved fast when you tapped on their window with a bayonet. Big knives tend to get attention from people. Way out of my lane, but his experience was one I found interesting.
My experience was the same. No concern for my m16, but when knives were out, they took notice. I always thought it was strange.
I remember a conversation with a buddy who ran convoy security in Iraq early on. He said it was always interesting how pointing an M4 or a M9 at a driver often didn't get much a response, but folks sure moved fast when you tapped on their window with a bayonet. Big knives tend to get attention from people. Way out of my lane, but his experience was one I found interesting.
My experience was the same. No concern for my m16, but when knives were out, they took notice. I always thought it was strange.
This is interesting. Maybe our gun control enemies of the 90's and their concern about bayonet lugs was actually founded in credible psychology? I am going to keep those dusty, ignored bayonets close at hand from now on. It might just give you the psychological edge in some major confrontation.
I like the idea. Does anyone make a lug adapter for the modern rifle with the free float tubes?Pretty sure Geissele did at one point. It mounted to a picatinny rail if memory serves.
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Great points, OP. I bet prices on Gun Broker will spike when Joe Fudd realizes this. Puns aside, the SKS is a great platform for these criteria.
Dr. Bullseye
06-25-20, 13:09
Fit a six foot cattle prod to the bayonet lug.
Coal Dragger
06-25-20, 13:35
Why don’t we bring back the trusty halberd for riot control? The po-po in front already make a shield wall, so how about some halberds reaching through, spearing miscreants, chopping at them, and using the hooked blade on the back to cut at their feet/ankles/tendons? Worked on battlefields for several hundred years, and if a bayonet will make you think twice a pole arm will have you shitting your shorts.
Johnny Rico
06-25-20, 13:59
I have a friend whose father-in-law was a retired Gorkha. A couple of his old war stories involved the use (i.e., basically unsheathing) of his khukuri in crowd control situations.
It seems that cold steel, like a rattlesnake’s tail, elicits an instinctual and primal response.
Whiskey_Bravo
06-25-20, 14:03
Interesting.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/3b9474b4dd06abf219a493e3ce40a02a/tenor.gif?itemid=3393601
Johnny Rico
06-25-20, 14:09
I don't have enough (any) expertise in this area to comment on a bayonet for riot control, but I always thought that the clear riot-control shields that police use should have a few pokey attachments facing the front. They could be non-lethal, but uncomfortable enough to prevent people from pushing against or touching the shield.
It’s been done before. Check out the targe of Scottish Highland fame.
Diamondback
06-25-20, 14:33
Pretty sure Geissele did at one point. It mounted to a picatinny rail if memory serves.
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If memory serves it was only a prototype.
turnburglar
06-25-20, 14:39
in Afghanistan the M9 or red laser had the desired deterrent. For some reason a massive green laser or 50 cal was easily ignorable.
This is a terrible idea.
The re-introduction of the bayonet onto a modern weapon? The optics of the bayonet for use as propaganda against the user? The effectiveness of the bayonet when used in an offensive or defensive situation?
Pretty sure Geissele did at one point. It mounted to a picatinny rail if memory serves.
Sent from my SM-N910P using TapatalkI saw while googling to see what's out there. The rest that can be bought right now looks like crap though. I did see a stubby bayonet for both SBR's and dissipators, but it didn't last long.
The re-introduction of the bayonet onto a modern weapon? The optics of the bayonet for use as propaganda against the user? The effectiveness of the bayonet when used in an offensive or defensive situation?
The bayonet used in riot control.
Kind of going along the law of the instrument which is typified by this statement - if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
Remember that scene in Braveheart when they use those long spikes to stop the cavalry? Those 5ft long Mosins with 2ft long bayonets aren't so comical anymore, are they?!?!?![emoji16][emoji16]
Doesn't the USMC still issue bayonets?
The bayonet used in riot control.
Kind of going along the law of the instrument which is typified by this statement - if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
I guess you could phrase it: "If you have a bayonet on your weapon, every brick throwing rioter could use an introduction to a sharp point".
Since I'm not LE, I look at the bayonet as something that could deter rioters from getting up close and personal against the officers. As a private citizen, I see the bayonet as giving me an additional tool in the defense of property and life, and the possibility that just the look of the thing would deter their actions, and save me from having to fire the weapon.
I remember a fight in High School I had as a Freshman. The attacker was twice my size and two years older. I compensated by removing my belt with a recently earned rodeo buckle and went after the dude, holding the leather end while swinging it and hitting him with the brass buckle. He stumbled and I picked up piece of broken concrete along the sidewalk and chucked it at him, hitting him in the left shoulder. Never had any problems again.
Had a fight with another guy - a Mexican named Raul. I was in an electronics shop class and this Raul was a Chollo type with the tan khaki pants, white T-Shirt and a hair net. He kept putting his hand on my left shoulder when coming up from behind me. Kind of an intimidation thing. After a couple of different times with him doing the same thing and ignoring my protests, I had a Bic Ballpoint pen hidden in my right hand and I quickly brought it to use, stabbing Raul in the top of his right hand, causing quite the stir with lots of blood. Raul had to be taken to the hospital, and I went to see the vice Principal, followed by a week of in-school suspension.
The point I am making is to utilize any and all means of defense or deterrence when dealing with a violent enemy.
Yet another reason to have an FSB
My experience was the same. No concern for my m16, but when knives were out, they took notice. I always thought it was strange.
It wasn't gurkhas with rifles that made the Japanese shit their pants in WWII. Of course they come from a blade culture so that could have something to do with it. I guess that is also true from much of Africa where the machete is more likely to be used on unarmed villagers than a rifle.
Since I'm not LE, I look at the bayonet as something that could deter rioters from getting up close and personal against the officers.
Close-in defense isn't really the problem, though. Here in Minneapolis, the closest protesters to the officers were the non-violent ones, with the violent ones using them as a barricade while throwing missile weapons hoping to instigate an escalated response.
Screw cold steel, we need the brown note!
I like the idea. Does anyone make a lug adapter for the modern rifle with the free float tubes?
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/05/geissele-picatinny-bayonet-mount/
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/05/geissele-picatinny-bayonet-mount/Never went into production.
stahljaeger
06-25-20, 21:30
There is a pyschological for me, maybe because I have been cut lots of times, but never shot? I can see a blade sometimes and get a spontaneous mental image and feel of it slicing into me. I have never had anything similar from a firearm. I don’t think it has changed my behavior much as I still use knives, saws and such daily, but it might if it was someone threatening me with one or the other.
There may also be a difference for the user. There is for me when slaughtering animals, but again it doesn’t really effect the end result.
I guess you could phrase it: "If you have a bayonet on your weapon, every brick throwing rioter could use an introduction to a sharp point".
Since I'm not LE, I look at the bayonet as something that could deter rioters from getting up close and personal against the officers. As a private citizen, I see the bayonet as giving me an additional tool in the defense of property and life, and the possibility that just the look of the thing would deter their actions, and save me from having to fire the weapon.
The reality is this.
Once upon a time LE had a wide variety of compliance tools. These included the baton, the PR-24, the asp and in some locations nunchaku. All impact weapons training from the mid 1970s forward centered around the idea of a compliance tool rather than a striking implement. Baton and asps were directed to non lethal areas such as knees, elbows and hands. PR-24s and batons also had a joint locking application if the officer had received advanced training. Nunchaku had many pinching techniques for compliance in addition to striking non lethal targets such as knees, elbows and hands.
The problem is when everything went to shit all of those items became Louisville sluggers and compliance / control methods were abandoned and this was dramatically demonstrated in the Rodney King video. It makes no difference if you believe Rodney King was innocent or guilty, it makes no difference if you think the officers in question believed they were defending themselves or not...every single one of them was using a PR-24 baton incorrectly and that was the night almost every LEO in the nation lost their impact weapons as an alternative to lethal force.
With the exception of some undercover detective types who were allowed to retain the ASP in their weapon inventory almost everyone else was left with only pepper spray and tasers. Then there were the multiple taser incidents which included a female deputy who intended to use a taser on a suspect who was already handcuffed and in the back seat of a patrol car and instead drew her Glock and shot the suspect TWICE.
She then blamed Taser for making a compliance weapon that was too similar to her duty weapon and LAPD backed her up and supported her on the lawsuit. That meant suddenly most cops lost their Tasers and not surprisingly Taser required special additional training before they would sell their products to law enforcement agencies after that point. They also redesigned tasers to look more like a space gun so GED educated individuals could distinguish one from a Glock 19 under duress. Add a few more "don't tase me bro" incidents and the other one where a cop claimed the suspect grabbed for his taser (even though most video didn't support that narrative) and he responded with lethal force.
So with tasers being viewed by many and presented as some kind of "death ray" a LOT of guys lost their tasers or were forced to operate under ridiculous new ROE which pretty much made most people skip the LTL part of the "lethal force continuum" and move directly to engaging with their duty weapon.
Even unarmed compliance and control methods have been so abused by a select group of complete dickheads that LEOs are now extra leery of any kind of choke hold despite the fact that your average MMA retard can do them with incredible success and serious injury is very, very rare.
And this flow chart of removing one compliance tool after another and restricting unarmed compliance methods after every negative incident has left most LEOs with only pepper spray as the TLT tool (which is often ineffective for many reasons and under many conditions) so it hardly should be surprising that a lot of LEOs were going "directly to Glock" in confrontations where a suspect was meeting the conditions for lethal force but in the past many LTL alternatives were available.
Suffice to say that in properly trained hands a bayonet could very well be an effective deterrence and compliance tool. But because there will always be that guy (and he will probably work for LAPD) who will just start punching holes into some kid guilty of wearing a hoodie that will be the end of that and very quickly.
The fact that the bayonet would be attached to a patrol rifle makes this a really bad idea by several magnitudes. First because you are bringing out a patrol rifle when the conditions don't yet necessitate it and using a patrol rifle for a spear increases the likelihood of the firearm being lost to large groups of aggressors. Poorly trained officers who can't properly apply compliance weapons aren't going to be any better at weapon retention skills.
So for all these reasons, bayonets are just one more thing on a long list of tools LEOs will never be trusted to use ever again. And the worst part of all is a lot of lives, both LEOs and suspects, were saved because someone correctly applied batons, PR-24s, nunchaku, asps, maglites and a dozen other things that were once available to law enforcement.
titsonritz
06-26-20, 00:20
Should be standard issue IMO. Don't want to get stuck, respect the line and when it decides to move forward that's all there is to it, get the fuk out of the way. Breach the line, expect what is coming.
titsonritz
06-26-20, 00:27
The PR-24 needs to make a major come back. So many issues would be solved with it's competent use and it is such an incredible tool beyond an impact weapon.
The PR-24 needs to make a major come back. So many issues would be solved with it's competent use and it is such an incredible tool beyond an impact weapon.
Peacekeeper Batons exist and they’re pretty damn comparable. Makes an ASP look like a toothpick
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200626/83f0cce95a6d592811e473d2f3c69c47.jpg
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titsonritz
06-26-20, 00:51
Peacekeeper Batons exist and they’re pretty damn comparable. Makes an ASP look like a toothpick
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200626/83f0cce95a6d592811e473d2f3c69c47.jpg
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Those are some badass units and if I was limited to an expandable baton I'd much rather it over the ASP turd but I still believe the PR-24 has better utility. It's just more of a Swiss Army knife of the Impact weapon world.
Coal Dragger
06-26-20, 02:26
Impact weapons? How about a nice mace? Not the kind in a can, the kind used to cave in plate mail and skulls!
Issue those along with the pole arms.
titsonritz
06-26-20, 02:40
Impact weapons? How about a nice mace? Not the kind in a can, the kind used to cave in plate mail and skulls!
Issue those along with the pole arms.
Sure, if the goal is strictly to smash heads give me a flanged mace but the PR-24 has so many more applications beyond crushing a skull yet still wields the ability.
Suffice to say that in properly trained hands a bayonet could very well be an effective deterrence and compliance tool. But because there will always be that guy (and he will probably work for LAPD) who will just start punching holes into some kid guilty of wearing a hoodie that will be the end of that and very quickly.
The fact that the bayonet would be attached to a patrol rifle makes this a really bad idea by several magnitudes. First because you are bringing out a patrol rifle when the conditions don't yet necessitate it and using a patrol rifle for a spear increases the likelihood of the firearm being lost to large groups of aggressors. Poorly trained officers who can't properly apply compliance weapons aren't going to be any better at weapon retention skills.
So for all these reasons, bayonets are just one more thing on a long list of tools LEOs will never be trusted to use ever again. And the worst part of all is a lot of lives, both LEOs and suspects, were saved because someone correctly applied batons, PR-24s, nunchaku, asps, maglites and a dozen other things that were once available to law enforcement.
I deliberately made this thread broad enough to include LE as well as the private citizen. There have been some good points against the deployment of the bayonet for the Thin Blue Line. For the average Joe like me, I can see value in it, especially if I was defending my store against rioting looters. Of course I don't own a retail establishment, but the wife and I discussed how we would defend that imaginary place, and it would involve me there with an AR and about 200 or 300 rounds in loaded magazines. The bayonet plus mounted light on the Picatinny rail could be an addition.
I also own a Mossberg Cruiser 500 in desert sand camo with a breacher barrel. Those little pointy spikes at the end could be refined a little to make them even more sharper. That weapon could be used as a persuader if pushed up against the body.
Averageman
06-26-20, 09:35
I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think we will see any fixed bayonet's being used for crowd control any time soon. The results would upset the whole Bread and Circus population beyond the norm and if you think you've seen impeachment drama, if that happens, "You aint seen nothing yet !"
As a Civilian, If we get so close that I could bayonet someone, I really should have shot them at that point.
I always saw them as a last ditch effort to gain enough room to reload, they make the muzzle heavy and less balanced. Give me a snub nose .38 and keep the bayonet.
The PR-24 needs to make a major come back. So many issues would be solved with it's competent use and it is such an incredible tool beyond an impact weapon.
Key point: COMPETENT
Tool beyond impact weapon: pool cue jab, power stroke, figure-8 strike - maybe. In reality a riot baton gives you more reach and, in most cases, more leverage for retention.
If you are thinking of the handcuffing armlock, figure-four takedown, or the straight wrist lock, maybe after a good deflation, but there are a lot of things that have to come together for the techniques to be effective. Not going to hit them if the last time your practiced was during recert. Notice how the instructor didn't hit the set-up on the first shot with a posing subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONsOvDuZ7XA
LAPD used PR-24's on Rodney King, didn't they? How'd that work out for them on an impaired subject? Even then, he didn't come up with the trapping forearm to capture the wrist correctly, essentially he drug the guy down instead of taking him down with leverage and pain compliance.
In case you wonder where I'm coming from, I've got a couple of classes under my belt, IIRC the last card I issued was 500 something.
I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think we will see any fixed bayonet's being used for crowd control any time soon. The results would upset the whole Bread and Circus population beyond the norm and if you think you've seen impeachment drama, if that happens, "You aint seen nothing yet !"
As a Civilian, If we get so close that I could bayonet someone, I really should have shot them at that point.
I always saw them as a last ditch effort to gain enough room to reload, they make the muzzle heavy and less balanced. Give me a snub nose .38 and keep the bayonet.
For official use maybe, but for the salt of the earth citizen like myself, I could see value in it's deployment. But it's all going to hell anyway, so why limit your collection of tools to fight the hoards of the unclean? If I get confronted by Mr or Mrs ANTIFA, BLM, John Brown Gun Club, La Raza, The Lutheran Church in America or George Soros' Open Society outfit, I'll engage them in a loud and clear verbal discussion, then make a stronger "point" if need be. I'm starting to lose some of my compassion and regaining some of the numbness I developed during my Army years.
Everything is going retro now anyway. I flew the Kiowa Warrior from 1994-1999 and used on occasion the AGM-114 Hellfire. Now the government is deploying the Flying Ginsu, an expensive weaponized version of Ron Popeil's RONCO Chop-O-Matic, with a modern name of AGM-114R9X. It's gotta have some psychological effect on a mud hut dwelling savage in SW Asia.
P2Vaircrewman
06-26-20, 11:09
As someone who has purchased AK's and AR's since the early 1980's, the bayonet was always a cool accessory to add to your collection. You'd put it on, play with it, then put it away in a box somewhere. For me, I always thought it would be a nice addition to your defensive position in a riot or defense of home or business.
I was in the African Countries of Chad (1988) and Somalia (1993). Just talking to the locals and soldiers from other nations, I was informed that the African Black has a phobia of getting stabbed or cut with a blade. They will charge a position facing gunfire, but they will think twice about running headlong into a rifle with a bayonet attached. I heard this from more than one source. I have always wondered if it was in the DNA and would be something to consider for the American rioting population?
A bayonet can give you stand off capability when dealing with a violent mob. Grabbing the barrel of your weapon with a mounted bayonet increases the risk of getting cut or seriously injured with a puncture wound. It can buy you time as well when doing a mag dump ammo reload. It could also be an ammo saver - a dead person you just shot during a riot is not the focus of a fellow rioter and they will return later to deal with the corpse. A stabbed rioter rolling around on the ground in pain and bleeding demands the focus of fellow rioters, and could take them out of the action in providing assistance.
Finally, you wonder about the mindset of a rioter when they see an armed defender sporting a bayonet on their weapon. Probably no different than a White guy in the hood sporting a big-ass Hillbilly Bowie knife which advertises this guy is someone not to mess with.
Solders charge into a hail of gun fire but they can't see the bullet that kills them coming. The vision of a 10 " blade coming to stab you has a more intimidating effect to my mind. I can't imagine the violence and blood of battles with only edged weapons. Those who charged into battle with only hand held edged weapons get my admiration.
Key point: COMPETENT
Tool beyond impact weapon: pool cue jab, power stroke, figure-8 strike - maybe. In reality a riot baton gives you more reach and, in most cases, more leverage for retention.
If you are thinking of the handcuffing armlock, figure-four takedown, or the straight wrist lock, maybe after a good deflation, but there are a lot of things that have to come together for the techniques to be effective. Not going to hit them if the last time your practiced was during recert. Notice how the instructor didn't hit the set-up on the first shot with a posing subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONsOvDuZ7XA
LAPD used PR-24's on Rodney King, didn't they? How'd that work out for them on an impaired subject? Even then, he didn't come up with the trapping forearm to capture the wrist correctly, essentially he drug the guy down instead of taking him down with leverage and pain compliance.
In case you wonder where I'm coming from, I've got a couple of classes under my belt, IIRC the last card I issued was 500 something.
I was trained on and issued the PR-24 back when I first started in law enforcement. Once on the road I only ever saw it used as a straight baton in actual UoF instances.
Here is an 18” bayonet that goes on my son’s 1853 Enfield. Once mounted you have 6’ of stand-off room in your hands ;).62954
Solders charge into a hail of gun fire but they can't see the bullet that kills them coming. The vision of a 10 " blade coming to stab you has a more intimidating effect to my mind. I can't imagine the violence and blood of battles with only edged weapons. Those who charged into battle with only hand held edged weapons get my admiration.I will say this, that if my opponent has a bayonet at the end of his rifle or even that Kabar gag gift one at the end of their pistol, no matter how incompetent they look or not, they're going to get that same level of respect and treat the unknown as if they were very capable, to not get near them at all costs because of that psychological effect you mentioned.
For official use maybe, but for the salt of the earth citizen like myself, I could see value in it's deployment. But it's all going to hell anyway, so why limit your collection of tools to fight the hoards of the unclean? If I get confronted by Mr or Mrs ANTIFA, BLM, John Brown Gun Club, La Raza, The Lutheran Church in America or George Soros' Open Society outfit, I'll engage them in a loud and clear verbal discussion, then make a stronger "point" if need be. I'm starting to lose some of my compassion and regaining some of the numbness I developed during my Army years.
Your hidden 11A is coming out man! Bayonets? From a fly-guy? :cool:
FWIW, they still had the "Bayonet Assault Course" for Infantry OSUT at Benning in 1983 when I went through.
Your hidden 11A is coming out man! Bayonets? From a fly-guy? :cool:
FWIW, they still had the "Bayonet Assault Course" for Infantry OSUT at Benning in 1983 when I went through.
Nah, I'm just getting sick of seeing people trashing my Country. Considering my upbringing, who would have ever thought that I'd be advocating violence against my fellow citizen?
We trained with bayonets at Fort Knox in 1978. I was at Fort Benning in August 1978 for 3 weeks of Jump School, then I did Air Assault at Fort Campbell in June 1983. That was enough running around and ground pounding to last me a lifetime. I think I mentioned before that I was at the back of the pack for the 3 hour/12 mile ruck on the final day of Air Assault. I finished at 2 hours 43 minutes (17 minutes to spare). Had bleeding blisters on my feet. I was a 23 year old 1LT.
Your hidden 11A is coming out man! Bayonets? From a fly-guy? :cool:
FWIW, they still had the "Bayonet Assault Course" for Infantry OSUT at Benning in 1983 when I went through.He was a Kiowa pilot, in Iraq they were well known for going Winchester and then pulling out their M4's making runs. Not positive but if they knew that they could have gotten away with it, survived, and not grounded, they would have intentionally used their blades if they knew that was what it took to save some lives below.
dwhitehorne
06-26-20, 12:42
I was trained on and issued the PR-24 back when I first started in law enforcement. Once on the road I only ever saw it used as a straight baton in actual UoF instances.
"Trained" is the key word. We have issued the PR24 on my department since I came on in 1998. In the USMC I received the 40 hour PR24 certification. As a security guard I attended another 40 hour PR24 certification class. In FLETC I received a 2 hour class on the PR and then a 2 hour practical exercise. Our issued PR is aluminum not the polymer version. On the line during a demo we only ever used the long extended position jab to move the crowd back. Once the fight really started "training" went out the window and instinctual evolution took over of swinging a pipe. Sergeants on the line have to check this. With with the ideal 6 to 1 ratio in the crush of bodies it is hard keep all of the sticks down.
I couldn't imagine the bayonet in any LE situation. When the line starts to crumble some officers panic and do stupid things. They have quite a normal instinctual response but nothing that is tolerated any longer in modern law enforcement. The blood alone would cause many officers to crumble. David
He was a Kiowa pilot, in Iraq they were well known for going Winchester and then pulling out their M4's making runs. Not positive but if they knew that they could have gotten away with it, survived, and not grounded, they would have intentionally used their blades if they knew that was what it took to save some lives below.
I only flew the Kiowa Warrior from 1994-1999 after I got promoted out of the 160th. Reaching O-4 also lessens your flight time. For the previous 11+ years I flew the MH-6/AH-6 Little Bird. In Somalia our issued back-up weapon was the HK MP5.
The only times in my career when I fired small arms out of the aircraft were in Grenada (1983) and Nicaragua (1984-1985). I was young and impulsive during those times. In Grenada I got shot in the right hand from a fragmented suspected 7.62 round. I pulled my sidearm and popped off some rounds at where I thought the offending fire came from while orbiting the location. In Nicaragua, I had a vintage (and well worn) XM177E2 that I carried in my aircraft, and used on occasion while flying, including the time we hard landed at a jungle LZ when the tail boom took fire and caused tail rotor transmission failure. It was a couple of hours in the mud waiting for another aircraft for exfil, with assorted hostiles in the area.
Oh yes, "going Winchester". Haven't heard that or used that term in ages. Thanks for the memory...!!!
Key point: COMPETENT
Tool beyond impact weapon: pool cue jab, power stroke, figure-8 strike - maybe. In reality a riot baton gives you more reach and, in most cases, more leverage for retention.
If you are thinking of the handcuffing armlock, figure-four takedown, or the straight wrist lock, maybe after a good deflation, but there are a lot of things that have to come together for the techniques to be effective. Not going to hit them if the last time your practiced was during recert. Notice how the instructor didn't hit the set-up on the first shot with a posing subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONsOvDuZ7XA
LAPD used PR-24's on Rodney King, didn't they? How'd that work out for them on an impaired subject? Even then, he didn't come up with the trapping forearm to capture the wrist correctly, essentially he drug the guy down instead of taking him down with leverage and pain compliance.
In case you wonder where I'm coming from, I've got a couple of classes under my belt, IIRC the last card I issued was 500 something.
Rodney King was a perfect example of how NOT to use a compliance weapon properly. They had what? 18 potential opportunities to actually handcuff and arrest him? Instead they kept playing whackamole.
Diamondback
06-26-20, 15:44
Creepy coincidence... I catch up on this thread and then immediately get an email from ArmsUnlimited pushing trade-in PR24's. Weird.
titsonritz
06-26-20, 16:52
Key point: COMPETENT
Tool beyond impact weapon: pool cue jab, power stroke, figure-8 strike - maybe. In reality a riot baton gives you more reach and, in most cases, more leverage for retention.
If you are thinking of the handcuffing armlock, figure-four takedown, or the straight wrist lock, maybe after a good deflation, but there are a lot of things that have to come together for the techniques to be effective. Not going to hit them if the last time your practiced was during recert. Notice how the instructor didn't hit the set-up on the first shot with a posing subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONsOvDuZ7XA
LAPD used PR-24's on Rodney King, didn't they? How'd that work out for them on an impaired subject? Even then, he didn't come up with the trapping forearm to capture the wrist correctly, essentially he drug the guy down instead of taking him down with leverage and pain compliance.
In case you wonder where I'm coming from, I've got a couple of classes under my belt, IIRC the last card I issued was 500 something.
LOL, yeah ya got to be less lame than that. What is that techniques called, the Nun Move? The "beyond" I was referring to is blocking, trapping, hooking and such. My experience is not LE based but rather martial arts, I was always a fan of the tonfa and Arnis. It's like any other weapon, 'tis the Indian, not the arrow.
Rodney King was a perfect example of how NOT to use a compliance weapon properly. They had what? 18 potential opportunities to actually handcuff and arrest him? Instead they kept playing whackamole.
Agreed.
Have you ever thought what it would look like if when he got up they waited for an overt move - towards them, etc. before wailing away?
Enjoy.
https://youtu.be/7dLReruvgBo
After dealing with protestors in my city for a week I can't see the utility of a bayonet. Typically the only long guns that you'll see near a skirmish line will be behind you, either a LL shotgun, or a grenadier with chemical munitions.
For a large and semi-stationary group you might have snipers in an elevated position. My city didnt see the issues that a lot of other places had simply because we had the capability to get 400 - 500 trained riot officers into an area pretty quick and that quelled most of our small issues before they became big issues.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
06-26-20, 23:39
I think a bayonet on a long gun is an excellent option for a private citizen defending their property during civil unrest and for National Guard troops during the same.
Unless we're wanting to get our own gendarmes - and use them as a literal internal military - I don't see their utility in law enforcement in the US.
Agreed.
Have you ever thought what it would look like if when he got up they waited for an overt move - towards them, etc. before wailing away?
I've heard different versions from people who were close to the event. Supposedly he was non cooperative and was forcibly removed from his vehicle and was non compliant with the arresting procedures that were in place with the LAPD at the time which to many in that time and place constituted "physical resistance" (even if he was so under the influence he didn't understand his situation and might not have been competent enough to fully cooperate) and so began the climb up the force continuum ladder.
Now probably any "non city" cop who wasn't just absolutely sick to death of gang banger types (not saying Rodney King was banging but to the LAPD all males were potentially "bangers" until you could determine otherwise) there were at least a dozen opportunities where Rodney King could have been brought under complete control by no more than two, and probably even one competent officer and then handcuffed and carried to the back seat. But given common mindsets of the LAPD at the time, these guys simply spun the OODA loop without bringing it to a logical conclusion.
And while Rodney King as a person makes a rather poor civil rights martyr, those LAPD officers did more harm to law enforcement nation wide than any random criminal could achieve. Instead of being professionals, they simply acted like a rival gang representing their set.
It was probably the most dramatic example of law enforcement incompetence until the Chris Dorner fiasco.
ThirdWatcher
06-27-20, 02:41
FWIW, I attended Army MP School in 1973 at Ft. Gordon, GA and we trained for Riot Control with fixed bayonets. This was in the days before one station unit training but we’d all had Bayonet Training in BCT so everyone was doing “butt stroke to the groin and a vertical slash”. I don’t see it ever happening but I guarantee you it would be an effective way to clear out the rioters.
As far as dealing with armed rioters, every outfit I ever served with had snipers watching over us (and at WTO we also thankfully had a USSS Blackhawk over us).
I guess Big Army still has some of those pig stickers lying around. From Army Times:
Top military officer: Troops were issued bayonets in DC unrest
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/07/02/top-military-officer-troops-were-issued-bayonets-in-dc-unrest/
Let's get it, Girls!
https://i.imgur.com/77u6JJD.jpg?1
Let's get it, Girls!
Special bracket to mount that bayonet with the 16 inch barrel?
Averageman
07-08-20, 14:02
I'm pretty sure that if push comes to literally a shove, that muzzle device is going to leave a hell of a mark if used like a bayonet.
I have always traveled with a blade and a 14 oz sap.
I have 3 blades that have been my go to blades, Cold Steel Spartan, Fairbairn Applegate 6" fighting knife, a big Bowie knife. I have never been stopped going through customs.
The last trip to Africa before Corona shut us down, we were staying in the best hotel in a city of 8 million people. The hotel had a metal detector at the front door, the first time we went out the front door I paid the head of security for us to not have to go through the detector. You should have seen his eyes when I pulled a 11.5" Bowie out from under my suit, and the sap from my right front pocket.
When people figure out you carry a big ass knife in Africa, they will leave you be. Same for Arabs. When people would ask me why I carried a big knife when I was also packing a pistol. I smiled and replied the knife if for fun.
I have friends that swear by a Tomahawk, but I have never used one.
I have always traveled with a blade and a 14 oz sap.
I have 3 blades that have been my go to blades, Cold Steel Spartan, Fairbairn Applegate 6" fighting knife, a big Bowie knife. I have never been stopped going through customs.
The last trip to Africa before Corona shut us down, we were staying in the best hotel in a city of 8 million people. The hotel had a metal detector at the front door, the first time we went out the front door I paid the head of security for us to not have to go through the detector. You should have seen his eyes when I pulled a 11.5" Bowie out from under my suit, and the sap from my right front pocket.
When people figure out you carry a big ass knife in Africa, they will leave you be. Same for Arabs. When people would ask me why I carried a big knife when I was also packing a pistol. I smiled and replied the knife if for fun.
I have friends that swear by a Tomahawk, but I have never used one.
When I was in Chad in 1988 and Somalia in 1993, I heard the same thing from the locals and soldiers from other nations. The Skinnies had a phobia about getting stuck with a blade, but getting shot didn't freak them out. Just watch how those Somali and Ethiopian pirates will charge gunfire from merchant ships in their crappy boats.
Grand58742
07-08-20, 14:44
When I was in Chad in 1988 and Somalia in 1993, I heard the same thing from the locals and soldiers from other nations. The Skinnies had a phobia about getting stuck with a blade, but getting shot didn't freak them out. Just watch how those Somali and Ethiopian pirates will charge gunfire from merchant ships in their crappy boats.
So, quite possible merchant shipping could have saved a lot of money by hiring Michael Dudikoff?
I had a guy in the Dominican with a machete, pissed at me because he rear ended my car and took off. I had the urge to chase his piece of shit car down and force him off the road.
He got out of his car with a machete, and I had left my 12 ga pump in my car, I was smiling at him and told him I didn't want to fight him. I just wanted to know who he was so he could pay for any damage he did to my car. He was yelling and swearing at me walking to me,telling me he was going to kill me. I reached under my shirt and pulled out my 11.5" Bowie knife and told him let's get it on.
He dropped the machete, and he started to apologize and his whole family started begging me not to kill him.
My game plan, was to close with him, so to limit his ability to use that big ass machete. I was actually wishing I had the 6" Fairbairn Applegate instead of the Bowie. But it all worked out.
Has several times a knife worked to my benefit in Africa
So, quite possible merchant shipping could have saved a lot of money by hiring Michael Dudikoff?
Never heard of him. Had to do a search to discover he's a martial arts actor. I don't follow that genre of Hollywood personality.
Grand58742
07-08-20, 18:00
Never heard of him. Had to do a search to discover he's a martial arts actor. I don't follow that genre of Hollywood personality.
Okay, you were supposed to chuckle when you saw he did a B rate ninja movie (a series of them actually) but really nothing since.
I guess when you have to explain the joke, it's not funny.
Okay, you were supposed to chuckle when you saw he did a B rate ninja movie (a series of them actually) but really nothing since.
I guess when you have to explain the joke, it's not funny.
Not your fault. I'm just not up on a lot of current celebrities. I'm also in Albuquerque tonite picking up my West Point Cadet son. Typing this on a Samsung phone. Big fingers and little keyboard on phone. Not fun.
Diamondback
07-08-20, 23:45
Not your fault. I'm just not up on a lot of current celebrities. I'm also in Albuquerque tonite picking up my West Point Cadet son. Typing this on a Samsung phone. Big fingers and little keyboard on phone. Not fun.
Suggestion, you might consider a cheap Bluetooth keyboard. I have one salvaged from my first tablet's case that I keep in the bag with the new tablet; it's a godsend when I have to do email or posts from the phone or some idjit insists on being an SMS chatterbox.
Edit for the more important part that Fumblefingers hit post before remembering to type: Bravo Zulu to your son!
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