Saferoom and Security Doors?

[kwelz]

I am in the process of remodeling our basement. Instead of buying a new safe I decided this was a good time to build a saferoom. 10x6 with concrete on 2 walls and the other walls made by 2x8 studs at 12 inch spacing with 2x6s in between the studs and then 3/4 inch Plywood on the outside. Not as good as concrete but I think it will do. Is there anything else I should consider or change?


The only problem I have is I am really not sure what I should do for the door. What have you all used? I really don't even know where to start on this part.

[Business_Casual]

If you added metal perf sheets you could keep EMP vulnerable items secure as well.

[sandsunsurf]

I don’t have a safe room but I have researched it a bit for a similar design- 2 sides are concrete in a split level house. I was going to use cinder blocks for the other two walls, I’m not sure if that’s an option for you. If you’re using wood, then I would think you can go with a high security metal door. If you’re on a budget, then use an exterior commercial door and a couple of deadbolts into a steel frame. You can also find higher security doors that have a lip on the hinge side and have multiple bolts, kind of like a gun safe.

[Alex V]

What kind of protection are you looking for?

Don’t forget, CMU isn’t all that bullet resistant if it’s left hollow.

When you say “concrete on two walls” I assume you mean the exterior foundation walls.

A solid wood wall won’t take long to get into and with one layer of 5/8” type X gyp will only give you 30 minutes of fire resistance.

What is the exact goal?

[AndyLate]

I would rather have 2x6 studs and ballistic wallboard rated to at least stop 9mm ball. I would not rely on 1.5" of plywood to do so. If you have a concrete slab for a floor, you can fill the walls with pea gravel or build walls with cinder block (concrete or gravel fill) and significantly increase ballistic protection.

If someone presents enough of a threat that you retreat into your safe room, it's a fair bet they will shoot at the wall/door at best or burn the house down.

I want to build a fortress in the sticks, but haven't win the lottery yet.

Andy

[vandal5]

Sounds like an interesting project. Guess ing you have other security measures for rhe main house. How secure are you trying to make this room?

With enough time just about any room can be broken into. I would think you want to make it tough enough so that it is not worth sticking around with the alarm going off.

Just food for thought here... If you can harden up the walls and door. You said it's in the basement. Whats above it? Can you cut your way in from the top?

Again with a house alarm going off, probably take too much time but that seems the next logical entry point.

[kwelz]

I guess I should have stated the goal. This is a room to securely store my firearms, accessories and other valuables. In addition it would also serve as a safe room in the event of a Tornado or similar event. Given my close encounter with one in 2012 I would like a bit more security there.

I know the room is not fire proof as is. I figured the only way to do that would be concrete. And that really isn't an option. This remodel has already gone WAY over budget due to some nasty surprises we found from he previous owners. It has turned into a full basement gut and start over. We even ended up re framing a lot of it.

I have no doubt that someone can get into it if they really want to. But it will take some work even as it sets now. If I am home it is a non issue since they will be dodging fire. If I am not it should delay them enough for Police to get here. As I stated above. Fire is an issue. But I am not sure how to fix that within my given budget. I saw Cinder block mentioned. That may be a possibility.

Vandal brought up a good point. I will probably put extra support in the Joist above it.

[ABNAK]

Does your house have a "root cellar" or "fruit cellar" underneath the front porch? Growing up in Ohio we had them and even my current house in Tennessee has one (although it is less common here). They make AWESOME gun rooms. I had a couple guys come in and built a steel frame around the doorway, pour in ~ 400lbs of concrete in the blocks surrounding the frame, and install a steel security door with four locks. Of course it is also an excellent storm shelter.

[kwelz]

Does your house have a "root cellar" or "fruit cellar" underneath the front porch? Growing up in Ohio we had them and even my current house in Tennessee has one (although it is less common here). They make AWESOME gun rooms. I had a couple guys come in and built a steel frame around the doorway, pour in ~ 400lbs of concrete in the blocks surrounding the frame, and install a steel security door with four locks. Of course it is also an excellent storm shelter.

Sadly no, this is something I lamented when we bought the house. My parents have exactly what you are describing and if I ever buy it from them, that is exactly what I will be doing. I have already roughly framed in where the room will go. It will be in the back corner of the basement with the only access through the room that will be my home office. I had also contemplated doing a hidden entrance instead of just a heavy door. The wife and I decided to put our built in shelves for foodstuff storage on the wall that is the outside of this room. So it won't even be obvious there is a room behind it.

[kwelz]

This is an old original drawing for the basement. We made a lot of changes, but for this purpose the safe room is the one in the upper right hand corner. We made it wider and moved the door to the left side in the room that will be my office. But that should give you a better idea. The far right side outer wall is the front of the house. The Basement has no windows or ingress/egress points other than the stairs.



https://i.imgur.com/ZAgZUwT.png

[SteyrAUG]

So given that the option to fortify doesn't really exist, think about conceal.

Frame off a section to make it look like an exterior wall and hang a bookcase where the door is. You can still do deadbolts and serious locks but if they don't know a room isn't there they won't think to break into that room.

[GH41]

I never understood the logic behind hiding from a storm in the basement. Do you have tools down there to cut your way out?

[matemike]

I'd go with something like this. They can be made to any shape and size, and should you ever move you could take it with you since they set up and break down easily.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Swisher-ESP-7-25-ft-x-3-5-ft-x-6-5-ft-Metal-Tornado-Safety-Shelter-SR84X039G/300200778

And the door concern you had in your opening post is taken care of since it is already a part of a system like this. Look at the videos to see how modular they are.

[gunnerblue]

I added an addition a couple of years ago and expanded my basement as well to include a gun/safe room. Poured concrete with rebar on all sides. For entry and exit I have two commercial-grade steel doors set in steel frames with Schlage ANSI level III electronic locks. I realize it isn't the most fireproof setup, but my primary intention was to secure firearms from children and also provide enough deterrent for smash-and-grab tweaker types.

[El Cid]

Most safe companies offer vault style doors but they are expensive. I’d want physical protection and a concealment such as SteyrAUG mentioned. Buys more time than just one of the other.

Also if this is to be a safe room from intruders and weather, I’d recommend having a plan for calling emergency services. Most robust safe rooms will block a cell signal so you could end up trapped without a way to get help. Maybe a cell signal booster or run a land line into the room?

Battery powered lights/lanterns should you lose power. And keep fire extinguishers and masks with some manner of filtration in there. We’ve seen the rioters use fire as a favored weapon lately. Finally breaching tools to extract yourself if a tornado collapses the house on top of you. After a natural disaster rescue may be overwhelmed and take hours or even days to get there.

[Bruce in WV]

Use PSP on your plywood walls to defeat chainsaw attack. Used that on safe room in our remote home in CO where Sheriff is 1+ hour or never.

Look this tornado door pub (and other tornado protection pubs from Texas Tech)- cheaper than true vault doors and still pretty secure:

http://www.securalldoors.com/storm_door.asp

[JimmyB62]

So given that the option to fortify doesn't really exist, think about conceal.

Frame off a section to make it look like an exterior wall and hang a bookcase where the door is. You can still do deadbolts and serious locks but if they don't know a room isn't there they won't think to break into that room.

I agree with this. Hardening is good but if they don’t know anything is there, your hardening won’t be tested. It’s like training for a fight but winning by not getting in a fight in the first place.

[26 Inf]

I agree with this. Hardening is good but if they don’t know anything is there, your hardening won’t be tested. It’s like training for a fight but winning by not getting in a fight in the first place.

The problem in his layout is designing something where it isn't obvious upon a cursory look that a hank of the basement floor space is missing. This might work:

62963

Another problem with the hidden in plane sight entrance is how often you want to access the room. You have to ask yourself, how many times am I going to be able to open or slide the bookcase door before it shows wear.

Just spitballing.

[joedirt199]

I started this exact project after shopping for a new safe. Have a 10x8 area in my unfinished basement I walled out with metal studs. 16" for the concrete walls and 6" for the exterior/accessible walls. 3/4" plywood and heavy drywall glued together for the exterior. 1/2" plywood on the inside for mounting. Shopped some commercial door vendors and found one that can make me the welded frame in whatever thickness I need, deadbolts on opposite sides of the hinges, a beveled edge door to create a tighter seal to the frame for pry protection and pinned hinges so that if someone cuts off the outside of the hinge the pin will keep the door from coming out. About $500 for the door/frame combo. I, like you want to have a room to store guns, ammo, food, guitars, dvr for security cameras big enough to get to for a storm but hard enough for a criminal to not just walk in and grab my stuff. And let's be honest, a kickass gun wall to show off to the friends.

[HardToHandle]

I never understood the logic behind hiding from a storm in the basement. Do you have tools down there to cut your way out?

Ever responded to an EF-5 tornado? Being buried is not an issue. Your above-ground house debris is three miles away. Most loose below ground items went with the debris. That said, you are not likely to survive unless buried in like a tick underground.

I have responded to a dozen real deal tornadoes. My first fatal tornado was 40 years ago. Never ever seen a serious below-ground entrapment. Most of the time neighbors just extract folks with hands or light tools. Citizen SAR is real.

On safe rooms, start with at least reviewing the FEMA Safe Room plans - https://www.fema.gov/safe-rooms. For instance, the FEMA plans always have inward opening doors (obviously). Then add security onto that concept. Life safety trumps property. And security is only buying time.

[SteyrAUG]

I never understood the logic behind hiding from a storm in the basement. Do you have tools down there to cut your way out?

It's better than being on the ground floor and impaled by all the remnants of the 2x4s in your walls as they shred out at speeds of 75 mph or faster. It's not the tornado that kills you so much as all the shit in the tornado that kills you. If you have a shelter room with sports drinks and snacks you can survive for 12 hours until the finally dig out your shelter room.

Of course sometimes the house is completely removed from the foundation and you open the door to the shelter room and hey, why is their bright sunlight in my basement?

[kwelz]

Thanks for the additional Info everyone. Especially the FEMA link, that is very helpful.



I never understood the logic behind hiding from a storm in the basement. Do you have tools down there to cut your way out?

For earthquakes perhaps. But I lived though an F4. There isn't anything left above ground to block you in. I am more worried about still having steps to get out of the basement if a tornado goes overhead and I ride it out int he safe room.

[Alex V]

When I used to design banks we would line the walls around the teller line with BR panels, can’t tell once they are under the gyp. I also used these in a couple lobbies at LOreal. They got scared after the Charlie Hebdo stuff went down. They are not cheap tho.

https://www.armorco.com/online-store/Fiberglass-Bullet-Resistant-Panel-UL-Level-3-Size-4x8-p84980793P

Personally I would use two walls/corner of the basement and build two more walls from CMU. #5 bar doweled and epoxied into the slab every 32” OC. Spliced with #5 bar up through the wall, fill cores solid with grout. The problem with this wall is that itnmaybexceed the punching sheet of a typical unreinforced 4” basement slab. Those slabs are crap. So you may have to saw cut 24” wide trench in the slab to pour a thicker section. Sort of a strip footing. Again, dowel into the existing slab.

You can build a three hour walk with metal or wood stud and gyp as well. It will weigh less but all you need is a keyhole saw to get through it. A three hour wall would be three layers of 5/8 type x on each side... more or less. CMU provides both fire protection and better security but it’s not as easy to get done.

8” nominal solid filled CMU provides 3Hours of fire protection. If you can’t afford a vault door, you can get a solid core metal door which is also rated for 3 hours. There are plenty of choices for hardware which can provide a fair level of security as well. One thing not to forget is a closer or one with a fusible link. No point in having fire protection if you left the door open.

The biggest problem will be the ceiling/1st floor as that assembly doesn’t provide much protection. You can sister up joists but that can be difficult depending on what utilities are up there. If an existing joist has a hole drilled for a 3” sanitary line you can’t exactly just notch the new one and expect it to have the same bearing capacity. If you can reinforce the ceiling/floor your only choice for fire protection is gyp. Base assumption is 5/8” type x gives you 30minutes but if the fire is stirring on the floor above and burns through the plywood now it’s eating your ceiling which will collapse your gyp. You could use ShaftWall but I’m not sure they have horizontal assemblies.