View Full Version : Self Defense and "Walk Away"
With the current two tier justice system I would have to seriously consider this. Biggest problem is the proliferation of cameras around today.
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=388934
" In these times when an attack can come from anywhere, I am reminded of the words of my martial arts instructor, himself ex IDF Special Forces, during knife defense training.
"Come at you with knife, take knife, put knife in neck, walk away."
I remember thinking how that was really bad advice for us in the U.S.
Not the put in neck part, but the walk away part.
Forensics would find you right? And if it did, you had to explain why you left and didn't report anything.
Many years later, and in the growing heat of a coalescing civil war the Left seems all to eager to bring on; and where the authorities seem all to willing to ignore the atrocities of the Left's open thuggery, well, I am much more inclined to his philosophy.
At this stage, I feel like I have a better chance dodging forensics than I do the judicial system."
"This isn't advice on getting away with murder. My best advice for that is to become a BLM activist. That is not a joke."
If it happens during a riot, leave if at all possible. Let your conscience be your guide regarding which law enforcement agency you contact once you are safe and you have spoken with a lawyer. Always wear a mask, for Covid19 of course, and wear drab clothes.
If it doesn't happen during a riot, pray for guidance and do what God tells you when you receive a reply.
Avoid riots and likely riot spots, situational awareness is key. Please do not counter-protest armed. When you give a spoiled child attention, it just encourages them.
Andy
To go along with the above I can remember during the Rodney King riots seeing the truck driver pulled from his truck and beat with a concrete block and thinking if I was in a functional vehicle I would be getting out of Dodge.
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=388928
"Woman in Fredricksburg, VA Calls 911, Complaining That Violent Thugs Are Blocking Her Car and Jumping on It; 911 Tells Her The Police Have Been Ordered to Let the Terrorists Do What They Want."
To go along with the above I can remember during the Rodney King riots seeing the truck driver pulled from his truck and beat with a concrete block and thinking if I was in a functional vehicle I would be getting out of Dodge.
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=388928
"Woman in Fredricksburg, VA Calls 911, Complaining That Violent Thugs Are Blocking Her Car and Jumping on It; 911 Tells Her The Police Have Been Ordered to Let the Terrorists Do What They Want."
Reginald Denny. Yeah he suffered some kind of permanent damage from that attack.
The "Walk Away" concept is an urban riot version of the Triple S in the rural setting (Shoot, Shovel, Shut-Up). If you dispatch an attacker, you cannot be certain any longer that the criminal justice system would protect you. Even if it does, you have the civil liability aspect of a lawsuit from the family of the dear-departed. In conversation with our local attorney, I asked about the defense in such a situation. He told me I could easily spend $30,000 + for the defense in a civil lawsuit, and if it was self defense, I would probably win. But calling it a win is kind of an empty thing because a counter suit to regain the money you lost may be fruitless since many of these ne'er-do-well types have no money.
The Triple S has been the talk of many conversations among old timers here in this part of rural New Mexico. You'll hear 80 year old men talk about so & so who left his house one day and never came back. You'll hear other talk about a certain canyon where you'll find bones washing out of a hillside, etc. Local justice was always the way in the old west because the long arm of the law was limited in it's reach. I'm still 45 minutes to an hour if I call 911 for a Sheriff's Deputy or State Police to reach my location.
Depends on circumstances. If you are not "doing anything", and you are attacked while police stand by, whether by order or personal choice, and then you defend yourself, then the police want to grab you, the answer is clear. The "system" no longer is legitimate. However, if you're smart, you won't even go where trouble is expected; enough happens which is unexpected.
Averageman
06-27-20, 08:34
I'm a big fan of "Avoiding Stupid Places, full of Stupid People", but when you can't a snub nosed .38 in your pocket and being grey might be then solution to your problems.
Just keep moving, head on a swivel and don't go to your car. Make your way home.
PracticalRifleman
06-27-20, 09:33
The "Walk Away" concept is an urban riot version of the Triple S in the rural setting (Shoot, Shovel, Shut-Up). If you dispatch an attacker, you cannot be certain any longer that the criminal justice system would protect you. Even if it does, you have the civil liability aspect of a lawsuit from the family of the dear-departed. In conversation with our local attorney, I asked about the defense in such a situation. He told me I could easily spend $30,000 + for the defense in a civil lawsuit, and if it was self defense, I would probably win. But calling it a win is kind of an empty thing because a counter suit to regain the money you lost may be fruitless since many of these ne'er-do-well types have no money.
The Triple S has been the talk of many conversations among old timers here in this part of rural New Mexico. You'll hear 80 year old men talk about so & so who left his house one day and never came back. You'll hear other talk about a certain canyon where you'll find bones washing out of a hillside, etc. Local justice was always the way in the old west because the long arm of the law was limited in it's reach. I'm still 45 minutes to an hour if I call 911 for a Sheriff's Deputy or State Police to reach my location.
There are plenty of places in the Appalachians and Ozarks operating much the same way. Except there are ravines, old wells, caves, etc where they go.
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What about the poor citizen stuck in their vehicle, protesters swarming around, attempting to break open the windows, etc? I am thinking of the video of that woman in Louisville, KY who made her escape. I recall another incident in Portland where an elderly man was stopped by ANTIFA and he refused to go in the direction they ordered. My wife drives a 2014 SVT Raptor and she has indicated on more than one occasion she would drive right thru or over anyone trying to attack her in the truck. Whether in a vehicle or on foot, you could end up in a place you don't want to be because these riots seem to be fluid and moving around.
Here's my go-to-town truck; a 2012 F250 Super Duty Crew Cab with a heavy duty Road Armor front winch bumper (with a 15,000 lbs capacity Warn Winch). Don't think for a moment that I wouldn't drive thru any Marxist/ANTIFA American subversives. Refuse to be a victim:
https://i.imgur.com/v5ogoPAh.jpg
Avoid these places where mobs are known to congregate in. It's what I generally do and anyone else that has common sense. Besides, they break into your home and get DRT, not here will I be in trouble at all; That's easy to have no charges. But being out and about, totally different if the DA thinks that you went out of your way looking for a chance to pull that trigger.
USCCA. I highly recommend everyone at least consider a look. I think it's money well spent. Especially considering current events.
ferfal's story used to be free but now looks like its a book but he had lots on info on lessons learned about living through the 2001 Argentina economic collapse. Things like if someone walks into the road hit the gas, especially if they are pushing a baby carriage, you want a handgun with a large capacity that you can draw with your left hand in case you need to shoot while driving, if you live in the country and your dog suddenly dies or goes missing expect to get hit during the next few nights. In an urban environment you are most vulnerable entering and exiting your home so be extra alert for ambushes during these times, oh and always carry some cash for bribing cops because when times get really bad that's going to become the new normal.
https://ferfal.blogspot.com/
To go along with the above I can remember during the Rodney King riots seeing the truck driver pulled from his truck and beat with a concrete block and thinking if I was in a functional vehicle I would be getting out of Dodge.
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=388928
"Woman in Fredricksburg, VA Calls 911, Complaining That Violent Thugs Are Blocking Her Car and Jumping on It; 911 Tells Her The Police Have Been Ordered to Let the Terrorists Do What They Want."
I posted a link in another thread that was a video of BLM types stopping, detaining and pointing an AR at a motorcyclist for several minutes. There were a couple of occupied police cars across the street watching the whole thing. Us law abiding citizens are on our own so don't expect the government to do their job and protect us.
I do think that if Antifa roll to SD to attack both Mt Rushmore and Sturgis, there will be some happy trees in the Black Hills.
Andy
Coal Dragger
06-27-20, 13:23
Mt. Rushmore would require actual work to get to. Scale the face or hike up the back side, and the scale the back skip which is also vertical.
I'd actually thought about this too. I'd very seriously consider walking/driving away. AZ isn't as mentally retarded as all the lefty shitholes that are being overrun by animals. (that's no coincidence by the way)
But yeah... It's a real coin toss.
Coal Dragger
06-27-20, 15:51
Unless it was in some really strange circumstance where sticking around and calling the authorities was a real danger to me I’m calling the police in the event of such an incident. If staying at the scene is too dangerous then I’m un-assing the area but still calling the police. My assumption is that most likely encounter will be in a populated area where video surveillance either public or private is going to be a thing. I would rather face a civil suit for justified use of force in self defense, than murder charges after the po-po investigation and they find me. Their assumptions will be that I committed murder and not self defense at that point.
If we devolve into some hellish dystopian non functioning government then I obviously will be lawless like everyone else.
PracticalRifleman
06-27-20, 15:55
How long will it be until “contact tracing” via phone GPS becomes the standard for crime scene investigation?
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How long will it be until “contact tracing” via phone GPS becomes the standard for crime scene investigation?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It’s already being used :) so not sure about standard I reckon if you cant do it other ways it will become the standard
Traffic cams on intersections the ones that some folks still say are not kept are used in cases even months later they pull up footage and have used it
This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I was talking about in the Ahmad Auberry thread. SHIT HAS CHANGED! All that, "Call the police" etc...white bread, middle class, normalcy bias will not serve people well in the future in store for this country.
You had better be studying how things work in places like Brazil, South Africa, the Philippines.....The country you were born in, its ways-are gone.
If you find yourself in a spontaneous deadly force situation, you've left a mountain of evidence already. Think of all the cameras you’ve appeared in front of without knowing, all the towers your cell phone has ping’d without your knowledge, your spent brass all over the ground that you don't have time to pick up, any people around that’ll immediately tell dispatch what you are wearing and your last known direction of travel.
You won’t get away with it in all likelihood. Better to call it in. Better yet, stay out of rough areas, and stay home after dark, if at all possible.
Diamondback
06-28-20, 00:06
If you find yourself in a spontaneous deadly force situation, you've left a mountain of evidence already. Think of all the cameras you’ve appeared in front of without knowing, all the towers your cell phone has ping’d without your knowledge, your spent brass all over the ground that you don't have time to pick up, any people around that’ll immediately tell dispatch what you are wearing and your last known direction of travel.
You won’t get away with it in all likelihood. Better to call it in. Better yet, stay out of rough areas, and stay home after dark, if at all possible.
I was always taught "don't go anywhere WITH a gun you wouldn't go WITHOUT one." Developing and maintaining Situational Awareness, the farther out the better, is key here... particularly looking for anomalies in things like vehicle or foot traffic patterns. Me, if I see a large number of people out in the street or even just on the sidewalks I'm going somewhere else without stopping to find out what's up... but then again I was a suburbs/smaller town kid and cities in general just creep the living hell out of me on general principle--maybe because I was a late Cold War kid and I think of dense population centers as "ICBM goes HERE."
Ayoob used to cover this all the time. It’s called “fleeing the scene of a crime”, and it puts you in a bad light as far as both law enforcement and the courts/jury goes; the idea is that only the guilty flee.
Hoping for it all to go away is about as useful as wishing upon a star. Are you going to destroy evidence too?
This is different than leaving a dangerous situation and calling the police. That’s just common sense. And when I say calling the police, I mean it’s about being the first to contact the police. That goes for a pepper spray incident as well as shots fired - if you defend yourself, be the one to initiate contact with the cops.
Sent from 80ms in the future
Fleeing the scene should be reserved for the protection of life, whether you used force or not. If able, call it in and find a secure spot or follow directions. On occasion folks even did this during crashes where one party was threatening the safety of others. We aren't talking about driving 10 miles to daddy's house either.
The point is the justice system has changed. Especially in democrat cities. A legit use of deadly force, especially white on black, that checks all 3 boxes, (opportunity, intent, capability) may very well get you charged and locked up for a year or two pending the trial. We are no longer living in the era of Masad Ayoob's advice although it was good advice in its time.
Running through and over protesters is a no brainer if there you're the lead vehicle and can escape. If you can only accelerate a block or 2 before being stopped again after you running through a crowd, they'll dismember you. Or if your sitting behind other cars already you're a sitting duck.
I would submit that you must make that decision to hit the gas pedal rather quickly. I envision that as they surround your vehicle at least one of those bastards is ice-picking or slicing your tire sidewalls. Sitting too long enables them to disable your best evasion strategy----the gas pedal!
Driving on through (if you're not blocked in by other vehicles such as tomfoolery on an interstate) is the easiest, likely least-threatening action legally you can take. Whipping out the Glock and commencing to lay waste shows a little more forethought and malice. You could theoretically show a reasonable escalation of force by "panicking" ("I was scared") and driving on through, then if your vehicle is disabled the firearm would be the next step because you then had "no other choice".
The point is the justice system has changed. Especially in democrat cities. A legit use of deadly force, especially white on black, that checks all 3 boxes, (opportunity, intent, capability) may very well get you charged and locked up for a year or two pending the trial. We are no longer living in the era of Masad Ayoob's advice although it was good advice in its time.
Running through and over protesters is a no brainer if there you're the lead vehicle and can escape. If you can only accelerate a block or 2 before being stopped again after you running through a crowd, they'll dismember you. Or if your sitting behind other cars already you're a sitting duck.
Well then we truly are lost. Stay out of the cities, stay out of “their” territory. What I said still applies. You WILL be on camera a zillion times that day, you WILL leave a pile of evidence against you. Flee or stay, the Democrats’ goon squad will find you.
Stay out of their territory. If you absolutely must go in, invest in some gray man camouflage. Find out what lefties of your age-range typically wear.
PracticalRifleman
06-28-20, 12:59
It’s amazing how different parts of our country are. The places I haunt I can go days without a camera capturing me. I don’t have service at most places I go outside of town. But I’m not likely to run into those types; more likely a meth cooker or grower.
It hasn’t been that long that people disappeared around here.
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NickySantoro
06-28-20, 13:05
Forensics would find you right?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Well then we truly are lost. Stay out of the cities, stay out of “their” territory. What I said still applies. You WILL be on camera a zillion times that day, you WILL leave a pile of evidence against you. Flee or stay, the Democrats’ goon squad will find you.
Stay out of their territory. If you absolutely must go in, invest in some gray man camouflage. Find out what lefties of your age-range typically wear.
I agree 100% about avoiding trouble spots. That said, my wife and I live way out in the sticks but work in the city, so that kind of makes a conundrum. We have to be prepared for shenanigans to and from work but all our other time doesn't involve potentially troublesome areas.
I agree 100% about avoiding trouble spots. That said, my wife and I live way out in the sticks but work in the city, so that kind of makes a conundrum. We have to be prepared for shenanigans to and from work but all our other time doesn't involve potentially troublesome areas.
Get a vehicle with high torque/ high ground clearance. For pushing objects out of your path, and hopping curbs with no damage or effects on drivability. If you find yourself under attack, you can flee no matter what creative driving you have to do.
MountainRaven
06-28-20, 14:28
Homicide database: Mapping unsolved murders in major U.S. cities - Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/unsolved-homicide-database/)
Short version: You basically have a 50/50 chance of getting away with murder in the US. Some places (like NYC, where ~40% of homicides are unsolved) are better at closing out murder cases than others (like Phoenix, AZ where it's ~60%).
So if you're smart and you set out to murder someone, you will probably get away with it: You can do it in a manner that minimizes the evidence you leave, you can attack people who have no connection to yourself, you can find ways to attack them where there are few or no witnesses. If you're attacked in the street, you lose control of all of that and now the odds that were stacked in your favor are now stacked against.
If you go to the cops, you may get arrested and charged with murder. But probably not.
If you don't go to the cops, you may still get caught. But if you do get caught, you will be arrested and charged for murder. And you will almost certainly go to prison.
If you live some place where the cops will probably arrest you for defending yourself after going to them, do you really think the judge will let your defense team play videos of BLM and Antifa? Do you really think the jury will be sympathetic to a defense playing videos of BLM and Antifa?
And I think you will find it much harder to defend against a civil suit for wrongful death when you're in prison for murder than if you're acquitted - or never even charged.
If you live somewhere where you think going to the cops after defending yourself will result in you going to prison - MOVE. Don't make excuses. Don't hide behind the family you're begging to have destroyed. Move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQZP7utR1wg
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