View Full Version : Dr. Voddie Baucham: Ethnic Gnosticism otherwise known as racism in America
Dr. Voddie Baucham is a brilliant pastor and speaker, and he coined the phrase "ethnic gnosticism" to describe racism in America. What he has to say in this video is refreshingly honest, especially when he discusses racism and cultural Marxism.
https://youtu.be/Ip3nV6S_fYU
Here is a great interview of Voddie where he talks further about what I call the fallacy of systematic racism in America.
https://youtu.be/pd1swytlzBg
Thanks for posting those. Excellent points made by Dr. Baucham, in a very non-confrontational way.
Thanks for posting those. Excellent points made by Dr. Baucham, in a very non-confrontational way.
My pleasure. I really enjoy his sermons. His love for his fellow man and his passion for sharing Christ is very obvious.
I found his reasoning for going to Oxford for his doctorate very interesting and revealing.
Keep listening, maybe he'll get you to believe TULIP eventually. Lol
Keep listening, maybe he'll get you to believe TULIP eventually. Lol
Negative Ghostrider.
Keep listening, maybe he'll get you to believe TULIP eventually. Lol
What is that?
What is that?
Calvinism. The belief that God predestined a minority of individuals to go to heaven before He created the world and the rest to go to hell.
I don't subscribe to this belief.
BoringGuy45
07-04-20, 22:43
What is that?
Calvinist doctrine:
Total Depravity: Human beings are completely sinful and depraved and incapable of asking for redemption.
Unconditional Election: God predestined all who will be saved and all who will be condemned; basically, nobody "chooses" to become a Christian or not to be a Christian.
Limited Atonement: Jesus didn't come to save everybody, he only came to save the predestined.
Irristable Grace: If you were predestined, once God calls you, you will inevitably believe and follow Him.
Preservation of Saints: Nothing can make the predestined lose their salvation. Anybody who denounces their faith is determined to have never truly believed in the first place.
Calvinism is central to Presbyterian theology, but it's also taught in congregational churches and some small baptist denominations. Most other denominations either reject Calvinism outright, or take Calvin's theories as one of many commentaries on Protestant theology and nothing more.
I'm not a Calvinist and I have serious issues with the doctrine taken as a whole. I also take issue with the fact that a lot of Presbyterian churches and thinkers tend to be anti-Israel and anti-Judaism. Not antisemitic; they don't hate Jews, but they do believe that God has rejected Israel and that the church is the "new Israel." Basically, the Jews have no further role to play in God's plan. My late Presbyterian granddad felt this way.
While I do believe that there are things that are destined to happen, and God does call some more persistently than others, I believe the call for salvation is universal. I also don't believe in fate-by-another-name; that is, that everything, good and bad, that happens, God wrote in the timeline before he create the world, and everything we do was fated to happen.
Calvinism. The belief that God predestined a minority of individuals to go to heaven before He created the world and the rest to go to hell.
I don't subscribe to this belief.
Actually my church and many Reformed churches believe much much more than a minority will be saved.
Calvinist doctrine:
Total Depravity: Human beings are completely sinful and depraved and incapable of asking for redemption.
Unconditional Election: God predestined all who will be saved and all who will be condemned; basically, nobody "chooses" to become a Christian or not to be a Christian.
Limited Atonement: Jesus didn't come to save everybody, he only came to save the predestined.
Irristable Grace: If you were predestined, once God calls you, you will inevitably believe and follow Him.
Preservation of Saints: Nothing can make the predestined lose their salvation. Anybody who denounces their faith is determined to have never truly believed in the first place.
Calvinism is central to Presbyterian theology, but it's also taught in congregational churches and some small baptist denominations. Most other denominations either reject Calvinism outright, or take Calvin's theories as one of many commentaries on Protestant theology and nothing more.
I'm not a Calvinist and I have serious issues with the doctrine taken as a whole. I also take issue with the fact that a lot of Presbyterian churches and thinkers tend to be anti-Israel and anti-Judaism. Not antisemitic; they don't hate Jews, but they do believe that God has rejected Israel and that the church is the "new Israel." Basically, the Jews have no further role to play in God's plan. My late Presbyterian granddad felt this way.
While I do believe that there are things that are destined to happen, and God does call some more persistently than others, I believe the call for salvation is universal. I also don't believe in fate-by-another-name; that is, that everything, good and bad, that happens, God wrote in the timeline before he create the world, and everything we do was fated to happen.
And we don't. Of course any Christian should reject Judaism simply because it rejects Jesus. But some Reformed churches uphold the idea that God is not finished with national Israel. It's just that God's plan would incorporate the Jews into the church universal. Your description of Calvinism as "fate" of some sort is in serious error. God controls and has purposed everything that comes to past....that's not fate.
Voddie is a Calvinist when it comes to the doctrines of salvation, but he is not Reformed.
Reformed theology is the essential belief that God is completely sovereign. If God is not absolutely sovereign; He isn't God.
People take issue with it because they want to believe that they are somehow instrumental in their salvation. Unfortunately, the Scripture simply doesn't support this position.
The idea that His purposes can be thwarted by man's will, is based on an inadequate understanding of who the Scriptures show Him to be.
Without getting into a lengthy discource, it would be easier for any who have questions about what TULIP means to read this succinct explanation:
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html
Reformed theology is the essential belief that God is completely sovereign. If God is not absolutely sovereign; He isn't God.
People take issue with it because they want to believe that they are somehow instrumental in their salvation. Unfortunately, the Scripture simply doesn't support this position.
The idea that His purposes can be thwarted by man's will, is based on an inadequate understanding of who the Scriptures show Him to be.
Without getting into a lengthy discource, it would be easier for any who have questions about what TULIP means to read this succinct explanation:
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html
I think the scriptures would overwhelming support what you have said.
BoringGuy45
07-05-20, 07:45
And we don't. Of course any Christian should reject Judaism simply because it rejects Jesus. But some Reformed churches uphold the idea that God is not finished with national Israel. It's just that God's plan would incorporate the Jews into the church universal. Your description of Calvinism as "fate" of some sort is in serious error. God controls and has purposed everything that comes to past....that's not fate.
That's fate by another name. That's where I believe Calvin was wrong. I also don't believe that God purposes everything that comes to pass. That would suggest that God is also the author of evil. God uses everything that comes to pass, but that doesn't mean he planned everything.
Also, we Christians should embrace Judaism as our wellspring. God is not going to incorporate the Jews into the church; rather, the church has been incorporated into Israel. John 4:22: You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. This doesn't mean that we must therefore hold to all Jewish laws and customs as Christians, nor does it mean we have to adhere to modern Jewish theology. But what it does mean is to see God through Jewish, rather than gentile, eyes.
Keep listening, maybe he'll get you to believe TULIP eventually. Lol
Off topic. This thread started out good until someone had to derail it with divisive theological comment. I hope this doesn’t devolve any further into a debate over pedobaptism or women wearing head coverings.
Off topic. This thread started out good until someone had to derail it with divisive theological comment. I hope this doesn’t devolve any further into a debate over pedobaptism or women wearing head coverings.
This thread wasn't going much of anywhere, what a whole 3 guys commented on the videos in a week? My comment was tongue in cheek since the guys that did comment are free-willers and Voddie is a Calvinist. I guess even Calvinists get something right once in a while.
That's fate by another name. That's where I believe Calvin was wrong. I also don't believe that God purposes everything that comes to pass. That would suggest that God is also the author of evil. God uses everything that comes to pass, but that doesn't mean he planned everything.
Also, we Christians should embrace Judaism as our wellspring. God is not going to incorporate the Jews into the church; rather, the church has been incorporated into Israel. John 4:22: You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. This doesn't mean that we must therefore hold to all Jewish laws and customs as Christians, nor does it mean we have to adhere to modern Jewish theology. But what it does mean is to see God through Jewish, rather than gentile, eyes.
Fate is driven by impersonal forces. And it wasn't just Calvin that was a theological determinist, it was pretty much every reformer, pastor and elder of the 1st and 2nd reformation, they were all Augustinians in nature and theology. If God doesn't purpose all things, knowing the beginning from the end, working all things after the counsel of His own will, and upholding all things by the word of His power, then who is? What power besides God is there? Duality isn't biblical. To me your thoughts of God are too lowly. It sounds like you are denying His omniscience and omnipotence, His mind is as infinite as His being. As for the origin of evil, how can it not originate with God? He has a purpose for everything including evil and how exactly are you using "author"? I use it to mean He doesn't actually do evil. From where evil come then? Again, what power is there beside God?
You make a false assumption concerning Israel and Judaism. The Judaism of 2000 years ago to present isn't the same as practiced by Moses. Christ said as much when He told the Jews of His day that if they believed Moses they would believe Him, they didn't believe either for the most part. It is true that God used the Jewish nation to advance much of His plan of salvation, and that in one sense the church in the OT and NT had it's roots in TRUE Israel, but the Nation for all intents and purposes perished in 70 AD. The Israel of today is comprised of mostly unbelievers. Not all Israel is truly is truly Israel as Paul says. And what Jewish eyes see clearly today? Paul says they read Moses with a veil over their eyes. I would except those Jewish brethren that do in fact understand and believe the gospel. The church from Adam and Eve to today has always believed in the coming messiah or the come messiah.
Would a moderator please delete everything from post 5 on as those posts don't relate to the original intent of this thread. Thank you.
BoringGuy45
07-05-20, 11:48
Fate is driven by impersonal forces. And it wasn't just Calvin that was a theological determinist, it was pretty much every reformer, pastor and elder of the 1st and 2nd reformation, they were all Augustinians in nature and theology. If God doesn't purpose all things, knowing the beginning from the end, working all things after the counsel of His own will, and upholding all things by the word of His power, then who is? What power besides God is there? Duality isn't biblical. To me your thoughts of God are too lowly. It sounds like you are denying His omniscience and omnipotence, His mind is as infinite as His being.
God is in control. That doesn't mean He micromanages. God has a sovereignty that we can't fathom. There is nothing outside of his control. That doesn't mean he authors everything. And to the contrary, I feel that my view makes God all the greater. He is in control of not one flow of time that he planned out to the T; He sees the trillions upon trillions of possibilities that can happen in the vast universe he created and no matter what happens, nothing will thwart his purposes. I believe that God has a gameplan, rather than a blueprint, for our lives, to paraphrase Larry Osborne.
Also, it doesn't matter if Calvin and the other reformers were determinists or not. It doesn't matter if they followed the philosophy of Augustine or not. Augustine's works are not scripture; they are a commentary on scripture. A Christian can pick and choose from his views, as well as Calvin's views, with which they agree and disagree.
You make a false assumption concerning Israel and Judaism. The Judaism of 2000 years ago to present isn't the same as practiced by Moses. Christ said as much when He told the Jews of His day that if they believed Moses they would believe Him, they didn't believe either for the most part. It is true that God used the Jewish nation to advance much of His plan of salvation, and that in one sense the church in the OT and NT had it's roots in TRUE Israel, but the Nation for all intents and purposes perished in 70 AD. The Israel of today is comprised of most unbelievers. Not all Israel is truly is truly Israel as Paul says. And what Jewish eyes see clearly today? Paul says they read Moses with a veil over their eyes. I would except those Jewish brethren that do in fact understand and believe the gospel. The church from Adam and Eve to today has always believed in the coming messiah or the come messiah.
I believe the book of Hosea lays out God's continued pursuit of Israel and makes my point.
Anyway, I've said my peace and why I believe what I believe. You're a Presbyterian, and so you believe in Calvinism. I am not. Agree to disagree.
BoringGuy45
07-05-20, 11:55
Baucham made some excellent points about how the social justice warriors completely poison the well. They're essentially trying to gaslight us: We can't trust our senses or logic, because they compromised due to our privilege. We don't see the world correctly, but the self-declared oppressed do. So we must accept everything they tell us as absolute truth without argument or question. They know our own thoughts better than we do. We must also obey everything they say, because only they can make rational decisions.
I would answer you, but Tex ole' boy isn't having anymore of it. We can go back to watching a 53 min video on a pastor who he thinks is heretical on the subject of salvation.
This thread wasn't going much of anywhere, what a whole 3 guys commented on the videos in a week? My comment was tongue in cheek since the guys that did comment are free-willers and Voddie is a Calvinist. I guess even Calvinists get something right once in a while.
I know you were joking, but some people are too serious when it comes to theological matters.
BoringGuy45
07-05-20, 12:17
I would answer you, but Tex ole' boy isn't having anymore of it. We can go back to watching a 53 min video on a pastor who he thinks is heretical on the subject of salvation.
Disagreeing with Calvinism isn't accusing the position of heresy; it's simply saying that one does not agree with that interpretation. That is allowed on some positions within theology. And the fact of the matter is, I think we all agree on what Baucham has to say here.
I would answer you, but Tex ole' boy isn't having anymore of it. We can go back to watching a 53 min video on a pastor who he thinks is heretical on the subject of salvation.
This thread was discussing the topic of perceived racism in America until you decided to hijack it. I have not and would not label Dr. Baucham a heretic. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Baucham, agree with a majority of his beliefs, and have been spiritually fed by a number of his sermons. Just because we disagree on Calvinism doesn't mean we aren't brothers in Christ.
I’ve been influenced by Voddie’s sermons and other preachers on the other end of the theological spectrum (within the realm of true Christiandom). Voddie is a solid bible teacher.
The important thing to keep in mind when considering a theological doctrine or source of truth is whether or not it makes you more Christlike or not.
There are open handed and closed handed doctrines. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water. If you find yourself perturbed by a contrary view on an openhanded doctrine, you’re probably holding on too tightly.
I used to be overly concerned about mine and others’ theologies but what I’ve come to learn over the years about God and theology is summed up with a C.S. Lewis quote: “He’s a good lion, but not a tame lion.”
This thread was discussing the topic of perceived racism in America until you decided to hijack it. I have not and would not label Dr. Baucham a heretic. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Baucham, agree with a majority of his beliefs, and have been spiritually fed by a number of his sermons. Just because we disagree on Calvinism doesn't mean we aren't brothers in Christ.
I hijacked what, almost nobody gave a hoot, at least I livened it up a bit. LOL. Just kidding on that last part. Agreeing with someone on the majority of their beliefs means on the others you at minimum think they are erroneous. Some errors can rise to the level of heresy. Disagreeing on who does what in salvation is probably right under the errors of who, and what God, Christ is, in the history of the church. But I take the characterization of heresy back, Voddie is only in error on the doctrines of grace
Disagreeing with Calvinism isn't accusing the position of heresy; it's simply saying that one does not agree with that interpretation. That is allowed on some positions within theology. And the fact of the matter is, I think we all agree on what Baucham has to say here.
The Synod of Dort would disagree. Not that they were perfect or anything. I just happen to agree with their views.
I don't agree with the idea of "agree to disagree, agreeably". At least on matters of theology. It's been an engine of schism and serious error throughout history. It's why we have the sin of denominationalism.
I’ve been influenced by Voddie’s sermons and other preachers on the other end of the theological spectrum (within the realm of true Christiandom). Voddie is a solid bible teacher.
The important thing to keep in mind when considering a theological doctrine or source of truth is whether or not it makes you more Christlike or not.
There are open handed and closed handed doctrines. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water. If you find yourself perturbed by a contrary view on an openhanded doctrine, you’re probably holding on too tightly.
I used to be overly concerned about mine and others’ theologies but what I’ve come to learn over the years about God and theology is summed up with a C.S. Lewis quote: “He’s a good lion, but not a tame lion.”
How important to God do you think theology and doctrine is? I see the problem as NOT holding fast to sound words. Would you count as a brother someone who denied the trinity?
You guys need to get back on track...you're still talking to me. Seriously...back to Voddie.
How important to God do you think theology and doctrine is? I see the problem as NOT holding fast to sound words. Would you count as a brother someone who denied the trinity?
Trying... to... stay... on... topic... argh! I give up! I love a rabbit hole! You guys can call me a hypocrite.
I would agree with you that there is a line.
In regards to someone who denies the doctrine of the Trinity, perhaps I would call them a brother, but perhaps not. I think it depends on whether there in fruit in their life or not. I believe in the Trinity, but it is not an easy concept to understand. I find it to be one of those Devine mysteries that leave me in awe of Him. What if they are a new Christian? Maybe they are not very sophisticated or not very intelligent. By not considering them a brother would I be then condemning them? I’m not trying to evade answering your question, but I don’t think there is an easy answer. In any case, I think it’s important to answer the person, not the question.
Frankly Tom,
One of the biggest turn offs to "Reformed Theology" is the arrogance of people like yourself. Just about every vocal proponent of Calvinism - with the exception of Voddie Baucham and Paul Washer - comes off as an arrogant ass who looks down on those who don't agree with them and therefore must not be part of the "elect".
The topic of Calvinism has come up a few times on the forum and never once have I seen you respond with love and compassion, but with arrogance and pride. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not arrogant or prideful in person, but that is how you come off here anytime Calvinism is discussed.
Proverbs 16:5
Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Assuredly, he will not be unpunished.
James 4:6
But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.”
Frankly Tom,
One of the biggest turn offs to "Reformed Theology" is the arrogance of people like yourself. Just about every vocal proponent of Calvinism - with the exception of Voddie Baucham and Paul Washer - comes off as an arrogant ass who looks down on those who don't agree with them and therefore must not be part of the "elect".
The topic of Calvinism has come up a few times on the forum and never once have I seen you respond with love and compassion, but with arrogance and pride. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not arrogant or prideful in person, but that is how you come off here anytime Calvinism is discussed.
Proverbs 16:5
Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Assuredly, he will not be unpunished.
James 4:6
But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.”
I see, Tex, now you judge my heart. Just So I understand Tex, what is the most arrogant thing I have said?
I acquiesced to your request. I responded to some offline and seriously said get back to Voddie. I made a joke at #4 post or there abouts and left it at your respnse. OTHERS went on about TULIP not me, I made no answer until much later and then tried to get the thread back on track. And now instead of talking about Voddie, you want to talk about me and my sin. What do you want man. Back to Voddie.
Calvinism sounds lame.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Calvinism sounds lame.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1 Corinthians 2:14-15
You guys take the internet waaaaaaaaay too seriously. Everyone lighten up a bit, and try to keep it near the topic please.
Dr. Voddie is an exceptional teacher. I observed him one time in a rather stressful situation having to do with airline travel, and I can definitely say he’s a better man than I am!
As to ethnic gnosticism, I can’t wait to use it when accused of systemic racism... definitely get into somebody’s OODA loop with that.
Thanks for sharing these. Been a while since I watched/heard anything from the good reverend.
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