General questions & advice needed

[junkxp]

Take a seat ,as i have a few questions and more than likely they are stupid ones so you may get some entertainment value. Skip to the bottom if you want to bypass my ramblings. These are things i've wanted to ask and say in other threads but haven't and need to make a decision soon so i'll just put it all in one place. I know i'm forgetting a bunch but i'll add it as i remember i guess.

I'm looking to buy a kit or components to assemble an ar while i can but after a month or so of reading i'm still not clear on what's what and it seems the wait and prices aren't getting any better.

I guess i should give a little info on past experiences with ar's so...

I've only owned one ar before it it was a colt, setup for match. I'm not sure on all the specs anymore since i sold it around 97(was 17 and stupid) but it was a 20" flattop that had a brake i've never seen again, trigger was worked over(and never seen one like it) and i'm thinking the serial was ch000XX(#'s instead of x's). Anyway this weapon would group wonderfully and never had a single issue with it. It was a bench queen and had around a 1.5-2lbs trigger pull with no take up or over travel so you could get the rpm up there if you wanted to play so i think it's safe to say it cycled fine.

Anyway as i've been reading though 100's of threads on many sites i've noticed a number of people calling 3-5moa accurate and from many manufacturers, some even being the "quality" high dollar names. To me this is not accurate and never should be considering the cost for these weapons. Albeit most don't mention what ammo they are shooting ,conditions, if they have tried other loads or messed with handloads ect. I've only been around colts and bushy's but even a 11.5" bmi would group better than what i'm seeing many people post now.

The last time i even shot an ar was 10+ years ago and i'm seeing that many things have changed since i've stopped paying attention. By this i mean people who have had a hatred for brands in the past now say they are good and even own them. Then you have so many names to choose from now which just adds to it. On top of that add the " only a couple people make them and others just add their name so most is the same" or "we sell xxxx brand and then you read that xxxx doesn't sell to anyone other than military or leo" unless it's seconds.

What's the real story on all this stuff? Does forger a,b,c,d make every part and company a,b,c,d,e,f,g machine it and put their name on it or does company a,b,c,d machine it and then 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 put their name on it? It doesn't seem cost effective for 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 to forge or even machine all or most of the parts. What does seem cost effective is to say we sell parts made by a,d,c,d have great qc and great marketing. I'm not trying to start a flame war or run anyone down i honestly don't know but do know that other parts are made this way.

Can anyone give accurate knowledge on this?

Barrels.... 1-7,1-9,to chrome line or not , 4140,4150,stainless. Way to much info , opinions and what i have read lately seems to contradict what i have read in the past on some things.


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The reason i started this thread is because i'm wanting a 16"ish ar and i'm kinda lost on which direction to head. The budget is around 600-700$ (money being tight is an understatement). Still have to grab some more mags and ammo also.

I'm thinking a 16" mid or 14.5 m4 and the shorter the better but i do want it to shoot accurately(under 1"@100yrd with good ammo) , not malfunction and hold up for my uses.

I won't be shooting more than maybe 500-1000rnds a year and that will more than likely be using what ever ammo i find cheap that isn't steel cased and is a load that works in the barrel. I would like to reload but haven't looked at component prices for a while so i'm not sure how cost effective it is these days.
I know it used to be around 4$ for 20 rnds. This was using random cases , i'm thinking 24.5 grains of stick and sierra match 69 grain hpbt that shot better than any thing off the shelf in my colt so i'll be trying that if i get a 1-9 twist since i still have a couple.

Although it will be used to punch holes in paper and cans i want a weapon that i could dump a dozen or so mags through quickly if i ever need to and function correctly.

I'm favoring del-ton due to price, cs and haven't read about problems yet but have looked at m&a, j&t and model 1 sales. If i can get what i want at a comparable price(600-700), in the configuration i want and of better quality then i'm open for suggestions. I know i'll have to wait either way since i'm late but would like a short wait.

I'll be keeping it simple but may add a ff 4 rail and different gas block at a later date although i'd more than likely only do that on a middy.

What i'm looking for is..
16" mid or 14.5 m4 flat top
twist/chrome??? (confused)
m4 ramps
phantom flashhider
m4 stock
detachable carry handle
extended latch (if middy)
hogue grip
caa saddle
The ability to mount one of those dangerous knives on the end of the weapon also appeals to me even though i doubt it ever happens.

So far delton is winning being the least cost and offering both configurations. M&A seems to offer both also(- chrome lined) at comparable prices. j&t has the m4 but i didn't see a middy ,yet they are close enough i could go pick it up and then there is model 1 sales.

This will be going on a spikes lower since it was in stock locally and just eyeballing had been machined cleaner than the s&w, bushy, rra and dpms they had also. Didn't look like s&w could be bothered enough to even blow out holes or hot tank before finishing. Now i just have to get rid of the red and white paint in the safe/fire marks without damaging anything.

Like i said if there are other options in this price range i am open.

Another thing i might aswell add since it has me doubting one of the places is i was told by them a couple years ago that their kits are all made by a company that supposedly doesn't sell to the civvy market.

I'd also like to add that this site seems different(good way) and don't worry i don't post much.

Thanks in advance for any info that may help me make a decision or confuse me. If you have any rifles from these places please let me know what you think of them.

[ZDL]

Everything you need is located in the stickies. Take some time and read. If you have questions after that.... Read again. If you have questions AFTER that, use the search button and if you still have questions after all of that.... buy an AK or... start a thread. :cool:

Welcome to the forum.

[Dogface]

The budget is around 600-700$

Good luck with that (these days). I've seen lowers going for more than that.

I usually hate seeing: "Search is your friend" replies, frankly every question that can be has been asked and answered x 100, but if all anyone did was search, the forums would die, lol.

BUT

In the time it took you to post such a long, detailed post asking for answers, you could have found them, ;)

Good luck in your (late to the party) quest. Prepare to pay for your delay.

[junkxp]

Thanks for the welcome and i have read so many stickies and threads it's ridiculous on these rifles and most seemed geared towards people who will shoot 10,000 rnds a year and minute of body is good accuracy. To me this is like asking someone who drag races what cam i should use in my jeep.

Will continue reading but lack of first hand knowledge isn't doing me any good.

So far i haven't done too bad on the lower and mags i've been grabbing. Not late 80's early 90's pricing by any means as even nib colts were going for my budget then and off brands i could get 2. The sticker shock for a colt ,kay and other usgi mags took it's toll though. Still grabbed a lower and 3-30's and 20rnds for under 200$ so i guess it could be worse.

One thing for sure is prices usually don't fall other than ridiculously marked up preban.

[Failure2Stop]

When it comes to AR's you have 3 options
-Accurate
-Reliable
-Cheap
You get to choose 2.

AR reliability is a combination of parts durability, assembly and dimensional correctness. AR accuracy is linked to ammo, chamber type (specifically the free-bore/throat dimension), and barrel quality/configuration.

Good parts cost what they do due to material quality, inspection to adherence of standard, and appropriate testing. The only bolt carrier groups that I trust (as in personally used and recommended) are LMT and Bravo Company. They cost about $130, and are worth it. (I also like Colt, but their cost and availability are prohibitive, and will be left out of the discussion)

Lower receiver parts, while less critical to reliability than the BCG and barrel are still important, as a broken FCG will render your weapon useless or dangerous. Decent LPKs such as LMT or the G&R offering are made to standard of quality metal while most others are of unknown or inconsistent quality material to unknown specs.

Barrels capable of high accuracy and reliability are less than common. The weapon's accuracy potential is a combination of ammunition consistency, barrel quality, chamber type, and to a limited degree- the upper receiver. The 5.56 chamber is optimized to reliably function in adverse conditions and with significant fouling by a generous throat, which is detrimental to accuracy. The free-bore allows the bullet to travel a bit without being engaged by the rifling, which can allow the bullet to hit the rifling at a slightly different angle with each shot. Reducing or eliminating the free-bore can increase accuracy, but will then exhibit increased chamber pressure and sensitivity to fouling. Most true 5.56 ARs with most 5.56 ammo are 2-3 MOA guns, though that drops with better ammo, higher quality barrels, improved chambers, and to a degree- better upper receivers (shaving 1/8 to 1/4 MOA with some billet uppers, as reported by a reliable source). I have a preference for Noveske, as they seem to have struck a good balance- exhibiting superb accuracy but with high reliability. This comes at a cost though- about $450 for a 16.1 Recon barrel and gas block.

Proper assembly is also a factor. Correct torque specs and staking of components is usually poor or lacking in the cheaper options and novice assembly. Some things are pretty hard to screw up as long as you have basic mechanical skills- such as LPK installation. Lacking the right tools and knowledge for certain jobs is a road wrought with peril. While one can correct the deficiencies in some guns, in the end they are simply band-aids to deeper unknown issues.

Now, bare in mind that I consider all of my guns to be potentially relied upon to preserve life. As such, I make it a priority to be proficient with them, which requires training and practice, which requires a lot of shooting. If my gun dies while I am training with it, it fails to be useful to me. If it fails when employed in its intended function I put myself and others at significant risk. I want my guns to work. If I just wanted to put holes in paper I would just shoot a .22, at a significant monetary saving, so my advice may not mean much to you.