View Full Version : good ol days of training over?
been looking for classes, training, even just a group of dudes to practice with. seems like slim pickins these days.
as a offhand way to check and see if it's just my perspective or nobody's actually training anymore, i counted the threads in the MISC training announcements here. I went back to a random year 2010 and compared it to last year 2019, since covid and lack of ammo probably affected a lot of training this year. There were 18 pages of threads in 2010 (pg 86-104) and 4 for 2019 (pg 2-5).
So what gives? is it economic and people just don't have the cash? seems unlikely given the Trump boom last year.
is it the passing of The Great Ones like Louis and Pat, and the newer trainers can't fill their shoes?
Are Gen Xers like myself losing interest in our late 40s/early 50s while younger generations are too busy with video games?
Maybe all the good training went underground and I missed the memo?
I just can't put my finger on it. NICS checks seem to be setting highs almost every year, and gun forums are still popular. why is no one training?
I mean, there's always been an extraordinarily high ratio of gun owners and talkers to actual shooters, but why has it gotten 4x higher (worse)?
Is it just a lull? are we going back to having lots of classes in a few years? I'd hope current events would spur some to train, but I get most can't afford ammo this year
edit to add, in my own case, i switched focus to shooting bolt guns and matches for a decade. but now that i'm back, the pistol/carbine world feels empty
MountainRaven
07-07-20, 13:54
The reason you're not finding much in the training forum is probably the same reason why you don't see instructors or SMEs post much on this forum any more: They've moved on to different media to communicate with students, potential students, and fellow instructors/SMEs.
Some of that will be movement to different forums, but some of it is also movement to Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, &c.
So what gives? is it economic and people just don't have the cash?
For me, it's a matter of having several classes already. Practice is the majority with maybe some refresher from time to time.
That... and I don't have the time for a 2 day class these days.... let alone something longer.
Averageman
07-07-20, 14:04
Covid -19, the see saw economy, Morons blocking highways, difficulties purchasing training ammo, so people aren't going to train when all of that is going on. Simple as that.
If everything goes our way, you'll have plenty of ammo, opportunity and cash sometime late this year or early next.
I wouldn’t base the state of the training industry on the number of threads in the training forum. Lots of instructors have their own websites and social media now and don’t need to post on forums to market anymore. All the usual suspects are still out there filling classes year round...aside from the shutdown due to Covid obviously.
Aside from that, there’s a number of factors that you touched on that may contribute to less guys training. I can only speak for myself but I put many more rounds down range in my 20’s before having kids than now in my 30’s with kids.
Like Mark said, with my background and training I’ve had, it’s less about going to classes as it is going to the range and maintaining skills.
I wouldn’t base the state of the training industry on the number of threads in the training forum.
Exactly. I have a carbine class on Saturday, and then I'm taking a Sentinel Concepts class later in October. I think the information is just out there for people more than it used to be. When I picked up my first AR, it seemed like everyone was just watching Magpul's the Art of the carbine, a few years later and they had classes all over from former Ranger Seal Delta Snipers. I giggle at this because I was first taught by an FBI tactical team guy, who was a Ranger at some point and I've been trying to unlearn his bad habits on pistol for the last few years.
I think it has become more standardized, as in most people know the ranges that host, and with social media, you can follow who interests you fairly easily. That said, there is quite a few instructors out there, and it can be a bit overwhelming if you start wading into the training waters.
thanks! well that makes me feel a lot better, though it sucks having to go to FB for anything. Is there a non-communist forum out there with class announcements? (the arfcom training forum is even more dead than here) or suggestions on where to get plugged back in?
TBH i'd like to do a class or two just to see how they've changed and what new techniques the cool kids are using, but some sort of group study monthly local session would be much preferred
it seemed like everyone was just watching Magpul's the Art of the carbine, ha! only for laughs :) hopefully you didn't bedazzle your jeans jk!!!
titsonritz
07-07-20, 16:17
I'm signed up a 2-day pistol class this weekend, (2) 1-day classes for both pistol and carbine 2nd weekend in August, a 2-day carbine course at the of end September and a 2-day pistol course in the beginning of October. So no, it ain't over from my perspective.
some sort of group study monthly local session would be much preferred
The regional training group forums are pretty dead, but you can try posting there and see if anyone bites. I would like to see them be more active. Where are you located?
It’s possible to train and do drills without taking a class.
Possibly requires more dedication alone or with a bud or two, like working out.
But is certainly doable.
I am not seeing a shortage of classes. Mostly a shortage of money and time to take all the classes I want. Currently I am good for 3 classes per two years.
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The regional training group forums are pretty dead, but you can try posting there and see if anyone bites. I would like to see them be more active. Where are you located?
East TN
thanks! well that makes me feel a lot better, though it sucks having to go to FB for anything. Is there a non-communist forum out there with class announcements? (the arfcom training forum is even more dead than here) or suggestions on where to get plugged back in?
TBH i'd like to do a class or two just to see how they've changed and what new techniques the cool kids are using, but some sort of group study monthly local session would be much preferred
ha! only for laughs :) hopefully you didn't bedazzle your jeans jk!!!
I didn't bedazzle my jeans but I did find an accessory or knife to stick into every pocket of my 5.11's
I have found the most practical way to do this is to form a shooting club and then arrange a "league night" with one of the local ranges.
East TN
There are tons of training opportunities around you. Valor Ridge, Tactical Rifleman (KY), and others. I personally never get down there and haven't taken any classes from these people but I hear good things. I would look at the Eagle Eye shoot complex south of Nashville, it looks like Runenation and Baer Solutions are doing a Concealed Carry Pistol course in October.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-07-20, 18:49
The lame ass that used to arrange all my training classes got too lazy to schedule them. SAM
Achilles11B
07-07-20, 21:52
The classes are out there. For me, the hurdle has been ammo, but that will pass eventually.
All of the instructors I was interested in were booked solid for several months or a year long before Wuhan virus, riots, etc., anyway. There was no signing up.
So it’s same ol’, same ol’ for me ...
I must not be in the same league as some of the shooters here, but since retiring the end of 1999, I have not set foot on a firing range, nor taken any formal firearms training classes. I guess I never felt the need for it after spending so many years deploying here and there worldwide, while heavily armed in one way or another.
I've seen plenty of Gunsite videos and that place always made sense to me because of it's location in Arizona. All the tactical moves, the various firing positions, reloads, etc., looked like fun, but I'm not a full-time LE member so I don't face the tough underbelly of society on a daily basis. I am proficient in the sidearm and rifle/carbine, but I guess you can always learn new stances and repetitive reflex actions that make you a better gunfighter.
The wife and youngest daughter do mounted cowboy action shooting, and that is quite impressive shooting targets from a horse at full gallop.
I must not be in the same league as some of the shooters here, but since retiring the end of 1999, I have not set foot on a firing range, nor taken any formal firearms training classes. I guess I never felt the need for it after spending so many years deploying here and there worldwide, while heavily armed in one way or another.
If I had the time and money I'd love to take a few classes with some famous names just to do it. Kind of like the people who pay money to take a NASCAR class and a few laps with whoever is the race king to those folks.
But personally I like to do staged shooting at least bi monthly just so I feel like I'm maintaining. Nothing huge, 10 stages and a couple hundred rounds covering all the basics. I like to know what I'm mostly capable of "right now" so I don't run my ass into a situation where I'm actually going to be in over my head. Also if I have to bet all the marbles I want to feel like I'm at least current.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-08-20, 01:48
Nothing will beat going to get Chocolate Frosty's with Chris and Travis, the golden age of training...
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-08-20, 02:00
Tons of classes being offered right here in N. Colorado: Travis Haley, Dave Kleiber, Kyle Defoor, and Sentinel all out here this summer.
Not only have I not seen a decline of classes, I have seen several prominent instructors go outside the box with media, like using zoom or video feedback. It's not 'same as' having them live, right at your hip on a range, but it's really good for a lot of things.
https://firearmstraininghub.com
This is a website that attempts to aggregate alot of the more reputable training operations around the country. From every discipline you can think of.
https://firearmstraininghub.com
This is a website that attempts to aggregate alot of the more reputable training operations around the country. From every discipline you can think of.
Thanks for this, I didn't know about this site before.
Here's the nutshell, some already touched on these points.
Not as many threads doesn't mean people aren't training. It means they aren't posting.
Fewer AARs, time consuming to do good ones, honest and candid ones aren't common. There's no incentive to write them, but plenty of potential butt-hurt.
Instructors and training companies are using different media platforms, IG, FB, etc.
Some instructors and study groups have gone dark, doing more closed/private events.
COVID- host site and training vendor limitations
COVID- less disposable income
COVID- less ammo availability
COVID- even if an event is occurring, traveling may have meant a quarantine on return home
COVID- even if an event is occurring, some combine tourism with training, and options may be reduced
Several 2020 events I had planned to attend or was coordinating cancelled or weren't viable enough given the above. Almost all are bouncing back. The 2021 schedule will be interesting. Many instructors and companies are revising deposit, cancellation, and host agreement conditions.
There's still a lot of training available out there and much of it is worth attending.
I’d ay that there are way more training opportunities now than 10 years ago. Follow trainers on Instagram and they post when they release their class schedules. Between traveling for work and coaching, time is the biggest limiting factor for me. I try to get in one class a year, but that doesn’t always happen. Last year I fit a 1 day Shrek McPhee carbine course and a 1 day low light/no light defensive pistol course. I even got my wife to got to that pistol course with me. The DMR course at The Site had been on my list for several years. Scheduled for that next month.
I'm personally not attending any more training because I currently don't benefit from it. Until I put in the effort of more practice and better physical fitness, attending another intermediate class is pretty much pointless for me now. I've attended four intermediate/advanced classes instructed by three nationally recognized instructors and it's become pay $500 (or more)plus another $200 in ammo (or more) to get my blaze on with very little individual attention to my shooting. Those classes were necessary to get my shooting to the level it is at now, but going forward I'm going to have to find something different.
I'm personally not attending any more training because I currently don't benefit from it. Until I put in the effort of more practice and better physical fitness, attending another intermediate class is pretty much pointless for me now. I've attended four intermediate/advanced classes instructed by three nationally recognized instructors and it's become pay $500 (or more)plus another $200 in ammo (or more) to get my blaze on with very little individual attention to my shooting. Those classes were necessary to get my shooting to the level it is at now, but going forward I'm going to have to find something different.
Locally a couple gun clubs went in together hired a "nationally recognized instructor" who did a 2-day pistol for 10 guys. It worked out to something like $300/person, but they each got a ton of one-on-one. But yeah, that can be a problem in big classes. I like LAV's and John McPhee's use of zoom and one-on-one video tutorials. Again, not same as being there, but almost as good.
I've attended four intermediate/advanced classes instructed by three nationally recognized instructors and it's become pay $500 (or more)plus another $200 in ammo (or more) to get my blaze on with very little individual attention to my shooting. Those classes were necessary to get my shooting to the level it is at now, but going forward I'm going to have to find something different.
I do agree on the individual attention, I would also add goal set. I can take classes in my home town about 10 minutes from my house by said "nationally recognized instructors" and I have before. The issue is that most of this is set up by the county and local PD and Swat guys, and because I know a few I fill out their rosters for attendees and in return the classes are usually a little cheaper. There is some good training taking place, and I tend to always learn something, however, I am not a cop, and the training is almost always focused in that direction. It can become monotonous, but I honestly feel like I get to learn something every time, and because I'm friends or have a decent relationship, they will point out one or two things that I can improve on if the instructor doesn't say something first.
I'm not seeing that at all. There is a bunch of training going on. Within the next two months Spencer Keepers will be here, Gamut Resolutions and also Sage Dynamics- and I'm in BFE, Texas. There were also two different "contractors" brought in in the last 3 months for various Church Security groups in town.
SeriousStudent
07-08-20, 23:33
I am a training junkie. I usually do between 10-12 classes a year. Last fall I went nine straight weekends, and four of those nine were instructor-level certification classes.
And what do I see? Usually the same people. Not kidding, I was in a shotgun instructor class in October, and I knew all but two of the 14 students, and had been in multiple classes with most. Everybody is shaking hands and playing the "where do I know you from" game.
Ernest Langdon was here two weeks ago, and I went by the class to bring some ice water and Gatorade, since it was over 100 that day. Plus, I just wanted to BS with him, he's a terrific guy. Sure enough, I ended up shaking hands with four guys I knew as we swept up the range.
So you have a lot of people that will take one or two classes, and that fulfills their needs. Then you have crazy people like most of the mods/staff here who are either take or putting on classes multiple times. A month.
There are a LOT of private Facebook groups now for trainers and their alumni. I am part of four of them.
I am a training junkie. I usually do between 10-12 classes a year. Last fall I went nine straight weekends, and four of those nine were instructor-level certification classes.
And what do I see? Usually the same people. Not kidding, I was in a shotgun instructor class in October, and I knew all but two of the 14 students, and had been in multiple classes with most. Everybody is shaking hands and playing the "where do I know you from" game.
Ernest Langdon was here two weeks ago, and I went by the class to bring some ice water and Gatorade, since it was over 100 that day. Plus, I just wanted to BS with him, he's a terrific guy. Sure enough, I ended up shaking hands with four guys I knew as we swept up the range.
So you have a lot of people that will take one or two classes, and that fulfills their needs. Then you have crazy people like most of the mods/staff here who are either take or putting on classes multiple times. A month.
There are a LOT of private Facebook groups now for trainers and their alumni. I am part of four of them.
So serious question, doing classes once a month, how much new "didn't know that before" material do you actually get from each class?
I don't think I've ever trained with someone where I didn't get something new, even if it was only unique perspective on something I had been shown before but I have so much "info" to work with now that I need time spent developing it or maintaining it.
Not for nothing but one doesn’t really need a class to work the fundamentals across a huge spectrum of performs metrics, drills and specific weapon manipulations. Deliberately focused training sessions, a shot timer, a cell phone for video can accomplish a lot. Initial exposure to the fundamentals notwithstanding.
It boils down to grip, sight alignment, and trigger press. Everything else serves to support those core functions.
Getting into training with multiple shooters, team tactics, and scenario based stuff is a different story obviously but you can absolutely make yourself a more competent shooter without paying someone else to teach you how.
My 2 cents
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So serious question, doing classes once a month, how much new "didn't know that before" material do you actually get from each class?
I don't think I've ever trained with someone where I didn't get something new, even if it was only unique perspective on something I had been shown before but I have so much "info" to work with now that I need time spent developing it or maintaining it.
I have taken the same classes with the same instructors and learned something new every single time (for example, 2-day pistol with Vickers). I love going back every so often and taking a fundamentals, basic, entry-level class. Many other classes just go so fast you simply don't have time to correct something that may not be 'quite right'.
Not for nothing but one doesn’t really need a class to work the fundamentals across a huge spectrum of performs metrics, drills and specific weapon manipulations. Deliberately focused training sessions, a shot timer, a cell phone for video can accomplish a lot. Initial exposure to the fundamentals notwithstanding.
It boils down to grip, sight alignment, and trigger press. Everything else serves to support those core functions.
Getting into training with multiple shooters, team tactics, and scenario based stuff is a different story obviously but you can absolutely make yourself a more competent shooter without paying someone else to teach you how.
My 2 cents
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I would tend to agree to a point. I have heard of a lot of USPSA shooters using coach's eye or other apps that record you so you can review your draw, grip to some extent, etc.
So serious question, doing classes once a month, how much new "didn't know that before" material do you actually get from each class?
I don't think I've ever trained with someone where I didn't get something new, even if it was only unique perspective on something I had been shown before but I have so much "info" to work with now that I need time spent developing it or maintaining it.
Valid. The more trainers and courses I attend on a topic the less new or novel stuff there is. What I look for are the gems and nuggets in an instructor's method, specific drills, explanations and verbalizations, how they organize information, class flow and timing, student-specific instruction and interaction, stuff like that. I capture as much as I can via a pocket notebook on breaks, and sometimes more writing or diagrams after class. The value of some things isn't immediately apparent, but I regularly refer back to the stacks of notebooks I've collected over the years. I can't think of any classes that I wish I'd gone completely without, but some were incredibly painful to get through with low net gain.
I appreciate all the replies. The convo has drifted a bit to an equally interesting aspect so I’ll chime back in.
I used to be a training junky but got a lot more value from matches which I viewed as learning opportunities if not training opportunities. I eventually stopped going to training classes because I wanted to focus on different things, particularly shooting with NV and much more movement than you typically get in a square range class.
I am very comfortable practicing on my own and with others what I already know. But one thing I appreciated from some classes I took was that some instructors updated their techniques regularly. That’s what I want out of training classes. Best practices. Things like insight into why something I might do on a 3gun stage might be a bad habit. I remember talking to Pat Rogers about why he was teaching such a slow technique for turning and firing and he said “what if the floor is covered in blood” and then it was immediately obvious his technique kept the center of gravity over your feet where I would have been hauling ass and then assing myself. Maybe it’s a dumb example but certainly something I’d never even considered as a civilian.
I want to take a few classes from instructors teaching the latest greatest. I don’t want to pay someone to tell me how things were done in the 80s or even 10 years ago. And I don’t want to feel like someone is reading the internet to me.
And then I want a group to practice with.
I’ve taken classes where the instructors was painfully bad. Years ago that didn’t bother me. I had the vacation time and a good attitude “a bad day training is still better than being at work” and I can learn a lot from a dummy too. But these days I’ve lost my tolerance and patience for that. I feel focused and motivated but maybe it’s a bad attitude lol. I was planning to be very selective and then surprised that I have almost no classes in my area. Ok if I have to travel but was hoping to avoid it. And at the moment I’m just hesitant to pay someone ive never heard of who has basic mil service resume $700
I want to take a few classes from instructors teaching the latest greatest. I don’t want to pay someone to tell me how things were done in the 80s or even 10 years ago. And I don’t want to feel like someone is reading the internet to me.
And then I want a group to practice with.
I totally understand your statement and your goal. Just my 2 cents here, the greatest classes I have ever taken just pushed the basics over and over again, even the advanced courses just pushed those basics in differing and more difficult situations. There are a few Pew Pew guys out there that wear all the Crye, and are sponsored by X $3k rifle company, and look like they came off a Bond movie set, but what their teaching isn't necessarily what is going to help you fire rounds accurately and quickly in a gun fight.
I would do 2 things in your situation, first look into training that is coming nearby, and reach out via email or do some research into the training and instructors, and second, look into a range nearby that either hosts, or has a few guys that run AR's and are similar minded in their training, the more involved you are the more people tend to come out of the woodwork.
I am a training junkie. I usually do between 10-12 classes a year. Last fall I went nine straight weekends, and four of those nine were instructor-level certification classes.
And what do I see? Usually the same people. Not kidding, I was in a shotgun instructor class in October, and I knew all but two of the 14 students, and had been in multiple classes with most. Everybody is shaking hands and playing the "where do I know you from" game.
Ernest Langdon was here two weeks ago, and I went by the class to bring some ice water and Gatorade, since it was over 100 that day. Plus, I just wanted to BS with him, he's a terrific guy. Sure enough, I ended up shaking hands with four guys I knew as we swept up the range.
So you have a lot of people that will take one or two classes, and that fulfills their needs. Then you have crazy people like most of the mods/staff here who are either take or putting on classes multiple times. A month.
There are a LOT of private Facebook groups now for trainers and their alumni. I am part of four of them.
The estimates I have seen are that there is a VERY SMALL number of people who make up the real clientele of professional trainers. That number is somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 people- out of a country of 330 MILLION. So yea, there are lots of trainers and they are all SCRAMBLING for their cut of that small pie- that's why all the Facebook, Instagram, Youtube ---"LOOK AT ME" stuff........It's very competitive.
Valid. The more trainers and courses I attend on a topic the less new or novel stuff there is. What I look for are the gems and nuggets in an instructor's method, specific drills, explanations and verbalizations, how they organize information, class flow and timing, student-specific instruction and interaction, stuff like that. I capture as much as I can via a pocket notebook on breaks, and sometimes more writing or diagrams after class. The value of some things isn't immediately apparent, but I regularly refer back to the stacks of notebooks I've collected over the years. I can't think of any classes that I wish I'd gone completely without, but some were incredibly painful to get through with low net gain.
Same. Anymore, after training regularly for 20 years if I find ONE THING I can take away....It's been a good class.
The estimates I have seen are that there is a VERY SMALL number of people who make up the real clientele of professional trainers. That number is somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 people- out of a country of 330 MILLION. So yea, there are lots of trainers and they are all SCRAMBLING for their cut of that small pie- that's why all the Facebook, Instagram, Youtube ---"LOOK AT ME" stuff........It's very competitive.
I would think it would be more than 5-10k. Hell, even my father in law with his Ruger SR9 and DPMS has been talking about trying to get into a class, and he only gets up from his camo lazyboy to ride his Harley or wash his High Country.
I would think it would be more than 5-10k. Hell, even my father in law with his Ruger SR9 and DPMS has been talking about trying to get into a class, and he only gets up from his camo lazyboy to ride his Harley or wash his High Country.
Well yea, burn down a few major cities and people who normally have two modes- Grazing and STAMPEDE will STAMPEDE. Not surprising. The data I have seen was collected by Karl Rehn of KR Training and Karl is very meticulous- he was an Engineer working at the University of Texas on major Government- military, grant projects etc....He knows how to work data.
Well yea, burn down a few major cities and people who normally have two modes- Grazing and STAMPEDE will STAMPEDE. Not surprising. The data I have seen was collected by Karl Rehn of KR Training and Karl is very meticulous- he was an Engineer working at the University of Texas on major Government- military, grant projects etc....He knows how to work data.
This was even before we all learned that we were secretly racist because I put a certain syrup on our pancakes. But it would be interesting to find out who is taking classes, where and why. I think that it would be an interesting write up whether it be Karl, or another gun friendly source.
This was even before we all learned that we were secretly racist because I put a certain syrup on our pancakes. But it would be interesting to find out who is taking classes, where and why. I think that it would be an interesting write up whether it be Karl, or another gun friendly source.
Interesting, definitely, but some awfully skewed data unless it's 100% anonymous, especially in this day and climate.... But what a great piece of academia, especially if you can capture historical data points as it relates to all aspects of training (i.e., before/after AWB, before/after a mass shooting when congress is threatening to take away guns, etc.).
IBut what a great piece of academia, especially if you can capture historical data points as it relates to all aspects of training (i.e., before/after AWB, before/after a mass shooting when congress is threatening to take away guns, etc.).
Totally agree. I'm not sure where one would start, I'm still fairly new to the shooting game as I got into it after getting out in 2012, but I would imagine that Clint at Thunder Ranch, and the guys who knew Jeff Cooper and Gunsite could give us a starting point.
I think there are quite a bit of quality instructors doing a lot of training. As others have said, they use their own social media accounts to promote rather than M4C or ARFCOM
Nothing will beat going to get Chocolate Frosty's with Chris and Travis, the golden age of training...
I've gone to dinner with Chris twice in the three classes I have taken with him. Really good opportunity to pick his brain on EVERYTHING!
SeriousStudent
07-09-20, 22:40
So serious question, doing classes once a month, how much new "didn't know that before" material do you actually get from each class?
I don't think I've ever trained with someone where I didn't get something new, even if it was only unique perspective on something I had been shown before but I have so much "info" to work with now that I need time spent developing it or maintaining it.
Serious answer - in virtually every class I get something. As other people have mentioned, I'll watch for the delivery of a drill or a tip or explaination.
Tom Givens is one of the best firearms trainers around. He and his wife Lynn have gone to Quantico multiple times to help train the FTU at the FBI academy. He makes an excellent point on why he goes and takes classes as a student every year. He's looking for new ways to teach a specific idea.
Gabe White was a house guest last year while teaching a class here in Texas. He gave me an idea on how to track my front sight during recoil that was simple and helped reduce my split time. Note - I do NOT worship at the altar of fast split times. But if I have to transition from a chest shot to the head, that tip is important. (Note: Some people are unimpressed when you shoot them in the chest. But connecting to the skull brings results, even if it's just temporary.)
Can you imagine how many people have worked with my poor dumb self to do that over my life? But Gabe gave me a lightbulb moment sitting on my couch drinking Bourbon.
Ernest Langdon helped me with recoil control. Spencer Keeper taught me a nugget about grip. Paul Sharp got me thinking about my pinkie strength. John Murphy showed me a tell on an opponent's draw stroke. Craig Douglas showed me a neat tip on double-edged blades. Chuck Haggard taught me a cool trick about pepper spray and baseball caps. Chris Fry about blade carry, Steve Tarani about improvised weapons, Cecil Burch about regaining your feet in a fight.
Wayne Dobbs, Darryl Bolke, Guy Schnitzler, Claude Werner, Hany Mahmoud, Gary Greco, Mark Fricke, Greg Ellifritz, John Farnam......I can go on and on about nuggets from dozens of teachers. All of those people are tremendous trainers that I have sought out multiple times. And I know I am leaving people out - sigh.
I have a habit of taking a beginner handgun class every year. I ain't showing off, and I keep my mouth shut and don't play Mr Know It All. I do it so I can run my carry gun with my weak hand.
I've been the weirdo in class running a S&W 686 L-Frame revolver and speedloaders. Why? Because if you put 17,000 rounds through a double-action revolver in a year of classes, guess what that does to your trigger control on a striker-fired pistol? The answer is you'll never pin a trigger again, and you'll be very fast and accurate. You'll also need to send the thing back to S&W for some warranty work - that was worth it. :cool:
There is always something to learn. You have to be a disciplined enough student to watch and learn.
Coming from Florida, you know that summer is usually break time. Very few trainers come to Texas in the summer, it's honestly dangerous to students. So from mid-June to early September, I'm not doing classes. I'm practicing the drills I learned in the first of the year. So it's basically three months of training - two month summer break - then four more months.
I hope that helped a little bit.
SeriousStudent
07-09-20, 22:42
The estimates I have seen are that there is a VERY SMALL number of people who make up the real clientele of professional trainers. That number is somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 people- out of a country of 330 MILLION. So yea, there are lots of trainers and they are all SCRAMBLING for their cut of that small pie- that's why all the Facebook, Instagram, Youtube ---"LOOK AT ME" stuff........It's very competitive.
I think that number is correct. Pat Rogers (God rest his soul) quoted that number fairly regularly.
SeriousStudent
07-09-20, 22:44
Well yea, burn down a few major cities and people who normally have two modes- Grazing and STAMPEDE will STAMPEDE. Not surprising. The data I have seen was collected by Karl Rehn of KR Training and Karl is very meticulous- he was an Engineer working at the University of Texas on major Government- military, grant projects etc....He knows how to work data.
Yes, Karl is very sharp, and you should read the training book he wrote with John Daub. I've trained with Karl several times, he's good people. So is John - he's very good and a personal friend.
Serious answer - in virtually every class I get something. As other people have mentioned, I'll watch for the delivery of a drill or a tip or explaination.
Tom Givens is one of the best firearms trainers around. He and his wife Lynn have gone to Quantico multiple times to help train the FTU at the FBI academy. He makes an excellent point on why he goes and takes classes as a student every year. He's looking for new ways to teach a specific idea.
Gabe White was a house guest last year while teaching a class here in Texas. He gave me an idea on how to track my front sight during recoil that was simple and helped reduce my split time. Note - I do NOT worship at the altar of fast split times. But if I have to transition from a chest shot to the head, that tip is important. (Note: Some people are unimpressed when you shoot them in the chest. But connecting to the skull brings results, even if it's just temporary.)
Can you imagine how many people have worked with my poor dumb self to do that over my life? But Gabe gave me a lightbulb moment sitting on my couch drinking Bourbon.
Ernest Langdon helped me with recoil control. Spencer Keeper taught me a nugget about grip. Paul Sharp got me thinking about my pinkie strength. John Murphy showed me a tell on an opponent's draw stroke. Craig Douglas showed me a neat tip on double-edged blades. Chuck Haggard taught me a cool trick about pepper spray and baseball caps. Chris Fry about blade carry, Steve Tarani about improvised weapons, Cecil Burch about regaining your feet in a fight.
Wayne Dobbs, Darryl Bolke, Guy Schnitzler, Claude Werner, Hany Mahmoud, Gary Greco, Mark Fricke, Greg Ellifritz, John Farnam......I can go on and on about nuggets from dozens of teachers. All of those people are tremendous trainers that I have sought out multiple times. And I know I am leaving people out - sigh.
I have a habit of taking a beginner handgun class every year. I ain't showing off, and I keep my mouth shut and don't play Mr Know It All. I do it so I can run my carry gun with my weak hand.
I've been the weirdo in class running a S&W 686 L-Frame revolver and speedloaders. Why? Because if you put 17,000 rounds through a double-action revolver in a year of classes, guess what that does to your trigger control on a striker-fired pistol? The answer is you'll never pin a trigger again, and you'll be very fast and accurate. You'll also need to send the thing back to S&W for some warranty work - that was worth it. :cool:
There is always something to learn. You have to be a disciplined enough student to watch and learn.
Coming from Florida, you know that summer is usually break time. Very few trainers come to Texas in the summer, it's honestly dangerous to students. So from mid-June to early September, I'm not doing classes. I'm practicing the drills I learned in the first of the year. So it's basically three months of training - two month summer break - then four more months.
I hope that helped a little bit.
More power to you.
I guess if a person has time, money and opportunity. I get everything you are saying but to use an analogy there was a time in my martial arts journey where I was taking on 7 to 10 styles / systems at the same time and working with as many as 5 different instructors. But despite holding high rank in some and middle rank in others, I realized that no matter how good my teachers were I simply had too much on my plate and I was only advancing in my core systems and baby stepping everything else. On top of that I had a tendency to do "this in that class and that in this class" and it was sometimes a chore simply to keep it all organized in my head to say nothing of "available to me without thought."
So I had to back off, refocus on main systems and then add additional information in smaller bites and over longer periods of time so that I could more successfully incorporate it.
I have found the same to be true of firearms. Now tactics, strategies and things like that - even ideas that are new to me or simply presented in a different light I can usually incorporate right away.
But if you give me new methods such as a physical approach to a target, an alternate way to manipulate firearms or something else completely new and different then I need the training course to get a "nuts and bolts" understanding and then I need several months of being able to incorporate it into what I already do so that it become part of the greater whole. And I've had some very qualified guys who have tried to give me lots of new material and I had to do the same thing, I had to cherry pick the things that seemed most important or most easily incorporated into what I already had and then seriously had to revisit the rest of it several months later.
I like being exposed to new methods and concepts. I may never adopt a Costa hold on my rifle but seeing it done spins the wheels and I understand what they are doing and why and it makes me consider the ways I do things and if there are elements I wish to incorporate that I wasn't fully addressing and didn't even realize I wasn't fully addressing them.
I also know my limits, I'm dedicate but I'm not a sponge. I know guys who are a sponge, they can see it once and they have it. You can feed them material all day long and by the end of the day they can do it and sometimes even end up with a more efficient version of what they were just shown. Having seen more than a couple of those guys, I know that's not me.
But again, if I had greater time, money and opportunity I probably wouldn't be opposed to some deep immersion training even if I can't retain all of it.
I like the way Tom Givens thinks. Like other instructors, I will take a handgun, carbine or shotgun course once in a while to see if there is something I should be teaching or if there is a better way to teach the material. It's good to view things from the perspective of the student once in a while.
Serious answer - in virtually every class I get something. As other people have mentioned, I'll watch for the delivery of a drill or a tip or explaination.
Tom Givens is one of the best firearms trainers around. He and his wife Lynn have gone to Quantico multiple times to help train the FTU at the FBI academy. He makes an excellent point on why he goes and takes classes as a student every year. He's looking for new ways to teach a specific idea.
Gabe White was a house guest last year while teaching a class here in Texas. He gave me an idea on how to track my front sight during recoil that was simple and helped reduce my split time. Note - I do NOT worship at the altar of fast split times. But if I have to transition from a chest shot to the head, that tip is important. (Note: Some people are unimpressed when you shoot them in the chest. But connecting to the skull brings results, even if it's just temporary.)
Can you imagine how many people have worked with my poor dumb self to do that over my life? But Gabe gave me a lightbulb moment sitting on my couch drinking Bourbon.
Ernest Langdon helped me with recoil control. Spencer Keeper taught me a nugget about grip. Paul Sharp got me thinking about my pinkie strength. John Murphy showed me a tell on an opponent's draw stroke. Craig Douglas showed me a neat tip on double-edged blades. Chuck Haggard taught me a cool trick about pepper spray and baseball caps. Chris Fry about blade carry, Steve Tarani about improvised weapons, Cecil Burch about regaining your feet in a fight.
Wayne Dobbs, Darryl Bolke, Guy Schnitzler, Claude Werner, Hany Mahmoud, Gary Greco, Mark Fricke, Greg Ellifritz, John Farnam......I can go on and on about nuggets from dozens of teachers. All of those people are tremendous trainers that I have sought out multiple times. And I know I am leaving people out - sigh.
I have a habit of taking a beginner handgun class every year. I ain't showing off, and I keep my mouth shut and don't play Mr Know It All. I do it so I can run my carry gun with my weak hand.
I've been the weirdo in class running a S&W 686 L-Frame revolver and speedloaders. Why? Because if you put 17,000 rounds through a double-action revolver in a year of classes, guess what that does to your trigger control on a striker-fired pistol? The answer is you'll never pin a trigger again, and you'll be very fast and accurate. You'll also need to send the thing back to S&W for some warranty work - that was worth it. :cool:
There is always something to learn. You have to be a disciplined enough student to watch and learn.
Coming from Florida, you know that summer is usually break time. Very few trainers come to Texas in the summer, it's honestly dangerous to students. So from mid-June to early September, I'm not doing classes. I'm practicing the drills I learned in the first of the year. So it's basically three months of training - two month summer break - then four more months.
I hope that helped a little bit.
this illustrates why i often learn as much in class from other students as i do from the instructor
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