View Full Version : SilverTip .223
Hi Doc, my agency just transitioned from the American Eagle 55gr. to the Winchester Ranger SilverTip Bonded 55gr. I conducted my own elementary test and saw the SilverTip fragmented much better than the Eagle or even the TAP 60gr.
What's your thoughts on the SilverTip.
Many thanks.
SecretNY
Bonded bullets do not generally fragment.
What is the catalog number on the box?
The Winchester rifle caliber "Silvertips" are typically re-labeled Nosler Ballistic Tips; these are non-bonded varmint rounds and readily fragment.
If you use the .223 Winchester 55 gr Silvertip (#SBST223B or RA223BSTA), this often has insufficient penetration and mediocre intermediate barrier ability and is not necessarily an ideal load for U.S. LE use.
The Q3283 60 gr Nosler Partition load is a better choices for LE use; you might also consider the RA223R2 64 gr JSP.
The box reads RA223BSTA. Unfortunately the round selection is at a level beyond me. If I PM you, is it possible to get a little more info on why it's not an ideal round? I believe we switched to it after a recommendation from a nearby agency.
Thanks for the reply.
DocGKR...
You mentioned the 60 gr Partition load, which intrigues me. I have leaned toward 62-65 gr offerings for overall performance in my personal defense ammo choices, while my affiliated agency has gone with the 62 gr TRU/TBBC, which was ordered based on yours and others' testing.
I've got a coffee can full of .223 60 gr Partition bullets I picked up at a gun show last year, and I'm thinking if my supply of TRU's ever gets low due to unforeseen dire circumstance, these might be a good fallback bullet for handloads. I've knocked down a lot of game with Partitions. I haven't seen any data on them with respect to intermediate barriers, however. I'd like to assume they handle windshield glass, etc, with aplomb, but what's your experience with 'em?
Jim from Houston
01-25-09, 10:58
If I recall correctly, I think that Dr Roberts once indicated that the 60gr Nosler Partition is actually the standard issue FBI .223 load...if that's correct, then it must at least show acceptable performance in all of the FBI terminal ballistics test events...
The Winchester 60 gr JSP Nosler Partition (Q3283) load is the current FBI .223 load. In addition to the Winchester product, Black Hills also does a very nice loading of the 60 gr Nosler Partition. The previous load was the Federal 62 gr JSP TBBC (LE223T3) loading. All are reasonably good .223 barrier loads, with an advantage to the Federal Tactical bonded loads in both 62 gr, as well as the 55 gr load (LE223T1 or identical P223T2). Another option would be the Hornady 62 gr JSP TAP Barrier load. The Swift 75 gr Scirrocco and various Barnes TSX loading in 45, 53, 62, and 70 gr weights are also good projectiles. We are also in the process of testing the new 64 gr Speer Gold Dot JSP and the new 62 gr Remington bonded JSP loads, as they show good promise.
Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift.
My department had hornady out to our range about a year or so ago. While I didnt witness the testing, feedback was that the barrier round wasn't all that great through glass. While I use the 8126N 75gr for general patrol work, I'd still choose the TBBC for glass or to get inside a car. I'lm interested to see your results with the ATK and remington bonded rounds as well as your comparison with the TBBC, plus any other Blind-To-Barrier offerings that you might "come upon".
TBBC and Nosler Partition are FAR better than the Hornady Barrier at glass.
As for the 55gr Winchester Silvertips in the Ranger lineup, it is Dallas PD's round of choice.
However a shooting a few years ago showed this bullets poor performance against windshields and door panels. Not a single round from the multiple ARs deployed that day made it through an early 90's Chevy Caprice windshield or door. In fact several officers used their sidearms which did get through.
DPD brass still wont change the .223Rem load. Ft Worth PD did.
Although I have seen that Dallas shooting incident written up as a failure of the .223 rounds involved, I have some inside information on that one.
That was a failure in tactics, and the angle of the car, along with positioning, meant that the officers would have needed a .50 to get to the bad guy.
Engine blocks stop anything you can fire handheld that isn't rocket propelled.
Actually it wasnt a training failure, the car was engaged from 2 sides, the front and right. Not a single 55gr Silvertip made it through the windshield or car door. However the pistol rounds did. Wesley Ruiz was hit 6 times that day as he laid on the floorboards under the dash, all by handgun rounds fired through the door.
Whats disturbing isnt that they didnt get Ruiz with the rifles, but that none of the rounds made it through a tough, but beatable intermediate barrier, until several rounds blew chunks of windshield out. By then, Ruiz was already hiding low. DPD does have barrier rounds in the form of the 60gr Nosler Partition. However, DPD issues those exclusively to DPD Tactical.
Because of this incident, alot of DPD officers carry 20rd mags loaded with ball. Some believe it will help.
"Because of this incident, alot of DPD officers carry 20rd mags loaded with ball. Some believe it will help."
It won't...if they want an alternative to defeat intermediate barriers, they should carry a barrier blind round like the Federal 55 or 62 gr Tactical JSP, Nosler 60 gr Partition, Remington 75 gr Swift Scirroco II PT, or Barnes TSX load, etc...
"Actually it wasnt a training failure, the car was engaged from 2 sides, the front and right"
Actually, it was. The initial approach by the officer who was killed, failure to apply a felony car stop tactic, etc., were glaring tactical/training failures.
From the front?,,,,, again, engine blocks stop bullets.
My information is that the bad guy was already laid down when shots were fired, thus every round into the windshield was over the top of him, ineffective regardless of ammo.
I'm done commenting on that part of the issue on an open forum.
Ball ammo? What Doc said, it will be no more effective, and likely less so, than the SilverTip.
Cor Bon DPX and Federal Bonded Tactical are the answer to the question of how to get into a car with a .223 rifle.
"Actually it wasnt a training failure, the car was engaged from 2 sides, the front and right"
Actually, it was. The initial approach by the officer who was killed, failure to apply a felony car stop tactic, etc., were glaring tactical/training failures.
I am speaking of the deployment of the rifles and the way the officers attacked the suspect once the officer had gone down. Not prior.
From the front?,,,,, again, engine blocks stop bullets.
Thus far, you are the only one to mention engine blocks, I am speaking of windshields.
My information is that the bad guy was already laid down when shots were fired, thus every round into the windshield was over the top of him, ineffective regardless of ammo.
He was initially laying down, but once he fired the 3 rounds, he decided to Rambo it, sat up, and tried to used his AR pistol again but it jammed. When he sat up was when the windshield was fired at.
Ball ammo? What Doc said, it will be no more effective, and likely less so, than the SilverTip.
Apparently you are confused in my words, I did not say it will help at all, I know better, but some of the officers believe it to be an advantage.
Feel free to IM for details. I dont get on here everyday so there may be a delay.
It won't...if they want an alternative to defeat intermediate barriers, they should carry a barrier blind round like the Federal 55 or 62 gr Tactical JSP, Nosler 60 gr Partition, Remington 75 gr Swift Scirroco II PT, or Barnes TSX load, etc...
DPD SWAT uses the 60gr Nosler Partition, but thats it, they wont general issue that load.
A local news station (KDFW/Lynn Kawano reported) did a story on the round that Patrol uses. The chief interviewed, I forget his name(1 star), said that they wanted a round that fragments, and arent concerned with much else.
One reason I think they stick with the 55gr stuff is the various ARs on patrol. The issue rifle is the Colt 6920, but officers who want their own rifle, and dont want to wait for the dept to get to them can purchase Rock River Arms. The RRAs they can buy have 1/9, while the Colts have 1/7. There are also some officers from waaaaaay back who still are allowed the "Armalites"(though I think they are Colt SP1s) they bought back in the day.
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