Prism sights in 2020 [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

mig1nc

07-21-20, 09:28

I kind of miss my ACOG. But with the LPVOs pushing 10x now, it's getting harder to justify the 4x plus red dot setup.

Has anybody gotten hands on with any 5x or higher mag prism sights in the market now?

The Sig Bravo 5 gets great reviews, but those don't really seem to get into the tactical rifle role I'm looking for. Plus it's made in China, although granted that doesn't really mean anything with regards to quality or capability.

I've never seen the 6x ACOG in person, but on paper it seems like a boat anchor.

Is there anything greater than 4x magnification that isn't either a total piece of crap or massive boat anchor?

I had a buddy lend me his Elcan Specter DR 1-4. I had mixed feelings about it, but thinking back, it was pretty good. I've heard the 1.5-6 Specter is not as forgiving as the 1-4 in terms of eye box.

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Mercs

07-21-20, 09:34

SomeOtherGuy

07-21-20, 09:49

I kind of miss my ACOG. But with the LPVOs pushing 10x now, it's getting harder to justify the 4x plus red dot setup.

Yes, yes it is. 3-4x prism sights still fill a niche when you want something small, light and rugged, but need some magnification. The TA11 in particular still seems like a good optic for some uses.

Plus it's made in China, although granted that doesn't really mean anything with regards to quality or capability.

You keep thinking that, anything from China will break on you at a bad time.

I've never seen the 6x ACOG in person, but on paper it seems like a boat anchor.

Haven't used it but have seen one, and yes it's really big and heavy. I can't think of any common use where it makes more sense than a conventional scope of some kind. Maybe for military use, on a machinegun, its durability is a good tradeoff for everything else.

Is there anything greater than 4x magnification that isn't either a total piece of crap or massive boat anchor?

Steiner and Burris, which are part of the same company (Beretta), offer some 5x prism sights that claim to be made in Germany and the USA respectively that are not outrageously big. But they aren't cheap and I can't see a real reason to buy those vs. a quality 1-6x.

mig1nc

07-21-20, 10:53

Yes, yes it is. 3-4x prism sights still fill a niche when you want something small, light and rugged, but need some magnification. The TA11 in particular still seems like a good optic for some uses.

You keep thinking that, anything from China will break on you at a bad time.

Haven't used it but have seen one, and yes it's really big and heavy. I can't think of any common use where it makes more sense than a conventional scope of some kind. Maybe for military use, on a machinegun, its durability is a good tradeoff for everything else.

Steiner and Burris, which are part of the same company (Beretta), offer some 5x prism sights that claim to be made in Germany and the USA respectively that are not outrageously big. But they aren't cheap and I can't see a real reason to buy those vs. a quality 1-6x.

Interesting, I did not know Steiner and Burris were part of Beretta. I used to run a Burris LPVO on my 3 gun rifle. It was good, and their customer service took real good care of me when I screwed up. Currently using a Steiner laser on my night vision setup.

Believe me, if given a reasonable alternative, I'll definably not buy from a hostile nation, especially not China.

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mig1nc

07-21-20, 11:03

My latest setup I have the a Gen3 PA 5x + dueck offset irons, and I favor this now. I would also use an acog of course but this was cheaper, more magnification, and still extremely rugged optic

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Sorry, I don't know how to multi quote in Tapatalk :)

This was one of the options I'm thinking about. Everybody seems to love the reticules.

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RKB Armory

07-21-20, 11:13

Has anybody gotten hands on with any 5x or higher mag prism sights in the market now?

We had a 6 power ACOG with piggyback red dot come through our shop. It was, as mentioned above, best for a machine gun. It was an impressive optic for that purpose.

If I needed to prioritize the weight and bulk of a rifle, a prism sight would be my choice. However, LPVOs have gotten so good, that I am willing to overlook those negatives.

Eurodriver

07-21-20, 14:08

mig1nc

07-21-20, 18:12

Fosho the ACOG is obsolete.

It’s main benefits are simplicity and weight - neither of which matter to guys who shoot twice a year from a bench.

PS: Buying a prism optic that isn’t an ACOG is stupid.

What about Browe? They have a nice looking new model, but again it's only 4x.

PS: looks like Steiner is made in Colorado and Burris is made in the Philippines as far as I can find in Google.

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SomeOtherGuy

07-21-20, 22:15

What about Browe? They have a nice looking new model, but again it's only 4x.

This one?

http://www.browe-inc.com/categories/4x32-BROWE-Combat-Optic-%28BCO%29/

That one has been around for a while, at least 5-6 years. I've owned two of them - one BCO and one BTO to be specific, the only difference is titanium body vs. 7075 aluminum. It is extremely similar to the 4x32 ACOG, and has similar strengths and weaknesses. The LED illumination and light sensor does work well, and the glass quality is very good, possibly better than the ACOG. However it has extremely short eye relief just like that model ACOG. If you are head over heels in love with the 4x ACOG, the Browe is a good option.

PS: looks like Steiner is made in Colorado and Burris is made in the Philippines as far as I can find in Google.

Each brand has had multiple models, but last I knew two of the three Steiner flavors were claiming Germany as their origin. Burris has long had a cheap asian prism scope in the $300 range, but also has a relatively new higher-end prism called the T.M.P.R. which is offered in 3x and 5x models and I believe is assembled in the US:

https://www.burrisoptics.com/sights/tmpr-prism-sights-series/t.m.p.r.-5-prism-sight-5x32

I have a 3x TMPR and like it quite well. FOV is very good, glass is good, eye relief is good, illumination is good. I paid a lot less than MSRP and would not buy one anywhere near MSRP. It is a decent value in the $500 range. But right now you can get a Vortex PST 1-6x for a little over $500, which is a pretty compelling alternative.

The only prism sight I think really holds its own today, even if "obsolete" (and arguably it is), is the TA11 3.5x35 ACOG. It has an excellent balance between magnification, FOV, sufficient eye relief, small size and weight, and ruggedness that balances out the fixed magnification. I'm keeping my TMPR too, but can't necessarily recommend it over a quality variable. All other prisms I've tried either had too little eye relief (Browe and 4x ACOG), questionable quality (Vortex), too small a reticle (Steiner), too much size and weight for the magnification (Steiner, other models of Burris), etc.

OrbitalE

07-22-20, 02:22

The only prism sight I think really holds its own today, even if "obsolete" (and arguably it is), is the TA11 3.5x35 ACOG. It has an excellent balance between magnification, FOV, sufficient eye relief, small size and weight, and ruggedness that balances out the fixed magnification.

TA33...

Eurodriver

07-22-20, 09:39

This one?. If you are head over heels in love with the 4x ACOG, the Browe is a good option.

Then why not just buy an ACOG?

mig1nc

07-22-20, 11:17

This one?

http://www.browe-inc.com/categories/4x32-BROWE-Combat-Optic-%28BCO%29/

I was thinking this one, I hadn't seen it until recently, but I could have just missed it: http://www.browe-inc.com/categories/4x32-BROWE-SPORT-Optic-%28BSO%29/

Edit: but yeah, still only 4x. I'm not overly concerned about price though. But I really like prism sights, even though they just don't make a ton of sense when you compare a prism plus offset red dot vs LPVO plus offset red dot.

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SomeOtherGuy

07-22-20, 15:00

Then why not just buy an ACOG?

It came out before the LED ACOG, and it has a light sensor to automatically adjust illumination level vs. the dial on a battery ACOG. But yeah, very similar optic.

SomeOtherGuy

07-22-20, 15:02

I was thinking this one, I hadn't seen it until recently, but I could have just missed it: http://www.browe-inc.com/categories/4x32-BROWE-SPORT-Optic-%28BSO%29/

That's been out 4-5 years I think. It's the same optical and mechanical system, but a different housing and no illumination, other than shining a flashlight to charge some phosphorescent reticle. I don't exactly think it has caught on, nor that it ever will at $1099.

If you want a Browe, there's periodically a "special offer" with a substantial discount on one or more models, usually around Christmas shopping season or SHOT.

mig1nc

07-22-20, 15:49

That's been out 4-5 years I think. It's the same optical and mechanical system, but a different housing and no illumination, other than shining a flashlight to charge some phosphorescent reticle. I don't exactly think it has caught on, nor that it ever will at $1099.

If you want a Browe, there's periodically a "special offer" with a substantial discount on one or more models, usually around Christmas shopping season or SHOT.

Ah, thanks for the suggestion.

I'm not overly hot on those. I'm also not opposed to buying used.

I think I'm going to look into those 5x Burris and Steiner units.

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SomeOtherGuy

07-24-20, 16:37

I think I'm going to look into those 5x Burris and Steiner units.

5x Steiner on clearance sale for around $595:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022378445

IMHO this is more of a novelty optic than a really great choice, but FYI. At least it's not Chinesium.

MStarmer

07-25-20, 17:09

I'm kind of stoked to see the PA GLX-2X with the ACSS reticle. I preordered one just to give it a run on a backup rifle.

mig1nc

07-25-20, 17:50

5x Steiner on clearance sale for around $595:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022378445

IMHO this is more of a novelty optic than a really great choice, but FYI. At least it's not Chinesium.

Thanks bro. Appreciate the link.

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SomeOtherGuy

07-26-20, 09:17

I saw a TFL "review/preview" of this 3x prism a few days ago. But I can't find where it's made, so I'm going to assume China. Other than that (Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?), the FOV looks great.

https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/Trihawk-Prism-Scope-3x30

LimeSpoon

07-26-20, 19:16

It would be neat if Elcan were to release their OS6x. Current market trending towards higher magnification, I think it'd not be unsuccessful.

Stats wise, it looks better than the TA648 ACOG in almost every way, most importantly being close to a pound lighter.

Mysteryman

07-27-20, 04:07

Mercs

07-30-20, 08:34

Ok, I’m selling off all my chinese sh*t, EXCEPT my PA prism scope for now. I need a little more time lol

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mig1nc

07-30-20, 15:25

Ok, I’m selling off all my chinese sh*t, EXCEPT my PA prism scope for now. I need a little more time lol

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Dvor has the 5X Steiner on sale. You could replace your 5X PA with that.

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Mercs

07-30-20, 15:39

Dvor has the 5X Steiner on sale. You could replace your 5X PA with that.

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How much is it? I ran that once in a shoot and I didn’t like the reticle so much. The problem I have with getting rid of my PA Prisms (I have the 2x also on an AK), is that they are actually better for me, faster on target, never have failed and for the price I could literally carry a full brand new spare with me at all times. It’s only out of my deep disdain for Communist China, and now this Wuhan flu attack, that Will cause me to eventually part with them. I have made a deal with the devil and it’s hard to escape now lolol

I’ll probably start saving for an ACOG w ACSS

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mig1nc

07-30-20, 19:00

How much is it? I ran that once in a shoot and I didn’t like the reticle so much. The problem I have with getting rid of my PA Prisms (I have the 2x also on an AK), is that they are actually better for me, faster on target, never have failed and for the price I could literally carry a full brand new spare with me at all times. It’s only out of my deep disdain for Communist China, and now this Wuhan flu attack, that Will cause me to eventually part with them. I have made a deal with the devil and it’s hard to escape now lolol

I’ll probably start saving for an ACOG w ACSS

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$679 plus shipping.

Pretty decent price for those.

They have a bunch of Steiner on sale: https://www.dvor.com/search/steiner

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scooter22

07-30-20, 19:48

If there was a durable fixed power 6x or greater with good eye relief and eyebox, I'd pair it with an offset 1x RDS and be all over it.

SomeOtherGuy

07-30-20, 20:39

If there was a durable fixed power 6x or greater with good eye relief and eyebox, I'd pair it with an offset 1x RDS and be all over it.

Have you looked at the Leupold D-EVO? It doesn't seem to have caught on, but is a good fit with what you're asking for.

https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rifle-scopes/d-evo

Mercs

07-30-20, 20:45

Have you looked at the Leupold D-EVO? It doesn't seem to have caught on, but is a good fit with what you're asking for.

https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rifle-scopes/d-evo

Oh wow that is exactly what he was asking for lol

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BrigandTwoFour

07-31-20, 12:34

TA33...

Agree here. IMO, the TA33 and TA11 family are only ACOGs worth considering these days. The former because of its balance of light weight, eye relief, simplicity, and magnification. The latter because it is the the best "all around" prismatic optic available, and you're not going to get to that level of durability in an LPVO without paying double the price.

mig1nc

07-31-20, 19:24

Ash from Knights was on the last Primary and Secondary and he had a Steiner T536. Looks pretty interesting. It's about the last twenty minutes or so when he goes over an AR with law folder.

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ColtSeavers

07-31-20, 20:34

MStarmer

08-01-20, 17:53

Why not buy and Acog? I see that alot, but the tritium / fiber just doesn't get bright enough like an illuminated reticle. Although the battery powered one does pose an interesting alternative, other than price.

Jellybean

08-03-20, 20:34

maximus83

08-03-20, 21:23

I *really* want to try one of the Cyclops Prisms, because my eyes have started to go to $#!+ and red dots are starting to streak and blur, and that's the closest "not-red dot, red dot" 1x optic WITH a non-$#!+ reticle that I've seen. BUT the incessant reports of "the reticle is to small" is stopping me from trying it.

Got a Cyclops for the same reason about a year ago (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?217878-BCM-Aero-franken-rifle), my vision was giving me trouble with the aimpoint red dot I had. The Cyclops for me was great, I agree the reticle would ideally be enlarged, but it's usable and the clarity for my astigmatism was a god-send. Only problem now is, I'm avoiding getting more Chinese-source gear as much as possible.

everready73

08-04-20, 08:24

I just had a PA 2.5x Prism a few months ago.
I'm used to PROs and I have a PA 1-6x SFP in an ADM mount, but... maybe it was the way it sat up high in the mount, but it felt bulky and top-heavy on the rifle.
I can't imagine that would improve with their 5x options. YMMV, just my opinion.

I *really* want to try one of the Cyclops Prisms, because my eyes have started to go to $#!+ and red dots are starting to streak and blur, and that's the closest "not-red dot, red dot" 1x optic WITH a non-$#!+ reticle that I've seen. BUT the incessant reports of "the reticle is to small" is stopping me from trying it.

Also will be interesting to see what happens to the QC of anything from China post-Corona...

Depending if you like the reticle or not, the Swampfox Blade might be worth a look. It has the larger reticle, but off sets are not typical. They are for closer range 5, 10 and 15 yard holds. DLO has had some good things to say about the brand in general although they are newer. I would say quality is right there with PA cyclops. I would def go with a PRO or similar if i had the choice, but if vision is an issue options are always good

Jellybean

08-04-20, 12:43

Depending if you like the reticle or not, the Swampfox Blade might be worth a look. It has the larger reticle, but off sets are not typical. They are for closer range 5, 10 and 15 yard holds. DLO has had some good things to say about the brand in general although they are newer. I would say quality is right there with PA cyclops. I would def go with a PRO or similar if i had the choice, but if vision is an issue options are always good

Yeah, I'd just as soon get the Vortex or SIG options before that one.
Not only does the Blade have a lot of features I don't care about (seriously, holdovers for close range? WTF?), nor do I feel the price is worth, I also have barely heard of them and I don't trust them.

The ONLY reason I even consider Primary Arms an option at all is there is so damn many of them on market, that between the end users and (hopefully) trustworthy people in the shooting industry/community, if there were major flaws they'd have found them by now, but instead, the vast majority of experiences seem to be positive.
So after a few years, I'd say PA is about as "proven" as a Chinesium optic maker can get.

When/if Swampfox gets to that level and quits the gimmicky names/'features', maybe I'll consider them again.

IF I can ever find a Cyclops for a decent price on the used market, or someone with one I can borrow, I'm going to give it a try, just to be thorough and see the reticle for myself.
However, I'm betting I'll probably still be sticking with the 1-6x LPVO.

maximus83

08-04-20, 14:55

IF I can ever find a Cyclops for a decent price on the used market, or someone with one I can borrow, I'm going to give it a try, just to be thorough and see the reticle for myself.
However, I'm betting I'll probably still be sticking with the 1-6x LPVO.

Stick with LPVO, if straight-up T2 or similar not working for you. Cyclops is solid not spectacular. But I'm really waiting for an American company (or at least, something made by a US ally) to put out a quality prism sight. I know about Leupold's offerings, all of those suck IMHO. ACOG not an option, no ocular adjustment. Given the whole China situation, if I were you, I'd forget the Cyclops and go with your LPVO plan. I don't think there's enough demand for prism sights in the current US market that anybody is bothering to make them at the medium or high end of the optics market.

mig1nc

08-04-20, 15:11

Burris makes a 1x prism, which I can only assume is made in the Philippines like the rest of the stuff they are known for: https://www.burrisoptics.com/sights/ar-sights-series/ar-1x

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maximus83

08-04-20, 16:05

Good find, I hadn't seen that one, might be interested in that myself.

ETA: Ok wait, those are a new design, it doesn't look like these have been through any kind of user testing yet. Back to the drawing board. Super frustrated with the lack of choices due to the China situation, but what I'm left with is Aimpoints (which I can't see clearly without correction, even the T2's) or LPVO's using the ocular adjustment. That's it.

MStarmer

08-29-20, 18:31

I'm still waiting on my PA GLx 2X for my 11.5 as I think it will be a great fit, maybe with an ADM mount. In the mean time, I'm right there with the 52yr old eyes and an astigmatism. Red dots are good with glasses, not so much without so I run a Scalarworks front sight post in addition to the dot as it's crystal clear. Currently running an MRO HD which is good but putting a Sig Juliet 3X behind it is golden. Using the diopter on the magnifier gives the ability to tune that dot perfect (at least +/- 2). I may move this setup to my 16" gun if the PA is a winner. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50283979876_eefde3956d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jBqxmh)IMG_20200829_143217 (https://flic.kr/p/2jBqxmh) by Michael Starmer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156641484@N07/), on Flickr

SteveL

08-29-20, 21:32

I just had a PA 2.5x Prism a few months ago.
I'm used to PROs and I have a PA 1-6x SFP in an ADM mount, but... maybe it was the way it sat up high in the mount, but it felt bulky and top-heavy on the rifle.
I can't imagine that would improve with their 5x options. YMMV, just my opinion.

I *really* want to try one of the Cyclops Prisms, because my eyes have started to go to $#!+ and red dots are starting to streak and blur, and that's the closest "not-red dot, red dot" 1x optic WITH a non-$#!+ reticle that I've seen. BUT the incessant reports of "the reticle is to small" is stopping me from trying it.

Also will be interesting to see what happens to the QC of anything from China post-Corona...

I tried the 1x Cyclops a while back. I've been on a long journey looking for optics that are friendly with my astigmatism. IMO the Cyclops is a good optic overall and was crystal clear for my eyes. The drawbacks are the tiny reticle and I wish the eye relief was longer. Note the retie is small because they insist on putting their ACSS reticle in it. The ACSS may be a good reticle under magnification, but i feel its features are all but worthless at 1x. I think the optic would be better if they dropped all the dots and increased the size of the horseshoe and chevron.

I've also used the 1x prism sight from Vortex and liked it quite a bit too. If I had to pick one I would go with the Vortex because I like the reticle better.

Jellybean

08-30-20, 18:02

I tried the 1x Cyclops a while back. I've been on a long journey looking for optics that are friendly with my astigmatism. IMO the Cyclops is a good optic overall and was crystal clear for my eyes. The drawbacks are the tiny reticle and I wish the eye relief was longer. Note the retie is small because they insist on putting their ACSS reticle in it. The ACSS may be a good reticle under magnification, but i feel its features are all but worthless at 1x. I think the optic would be better if they dropped all the dots and increased the size of the horseshoe and chevron.

I've also used the 1x prism sight from Vortex and liked it quite a bit too. If I had to pick one I would go with the Vortex because I like the reticle better.

I'm going to have to press X for doubt. I don't think it has anything to do with the ACSS features, I think they just plain made the reticle to small.
As stated before I have a PA 1-6x SFP with the ACSS and it's perfectly sized at 1x. And that's a SFP optic, so the reticle stays the same size at 1x or 6x or anywhere in between.Granted, the holds won't be accurate at anything but 6x, but... it still *looks* the same size.
So, at the right sizing scale, it's definitely not worthless at 1x. If anything I would think it would be even more useful in a 1x optic, since it gives you nice, easy to understand useful holdovers.

Maybe I am just an idiot, and the reticle needs to be that micro-size to scale correctly for the holds when used in a 1x optic, BUT.... you'd think by now with all the complaints about reticle size they'd have re-scaled it.
I still need to try one to be sure for myself, but as this is an ongoing complaint specific to this optic...I really don't understand why it hasn't been addressed at this point.

Mercs

08-30-20, 18:32

The primary arms 2x is even better than I imagined

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SteveL

08-30-20, 19:32

I'm going to have to press X for doubt. I don't think it has anything to do with the ACSS features, I think they just plain made the reticle to small.
As stated before I have a PA 1-6x SFP with the ACSS and it's perfectly sized at 1x. And that's a SFP optic, so the reticle stays the same size at 1x or 6x or anywhere in between.Granted, the holds won't be accurate at anything but 6x, but... it still *looks* the same size.
So, at the right sizing scale, it's definitely not worthless at 1x. If anything I would think it would be even more useful in a 1x optic, since it gives you nice, easy to understand useful holdovers.

Maybe I am just an idiot, and the reticle needs to be that micro-size to scale correctly for the holds when used in a 1x optic, BUT.... you'd think by now with all the complaints about reticle size they'd have re-scaled it.
I still need to try one to be sure for myself, but as this is an ongoing complaint specific to this optic...I really don't understand why it hasn't been addressed at this point.

This is from the product description on the Primary Arms website:

Patented ACSS Cyclops reticle provides fast target acquisition, range estimation, and moving target leads out to 400 yards.

Wouldn't the reticle need to be sized very precisely/specifically for all those features to work at a particular magnification level (1x in this case)?

maximus83

08-30-20, 19:55

The primary arms 2x is even better than I imagined

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I saw that listed on their site, sounds like they've upgraded the glass. My only problem with a fixed 2x is basically it's not really optimized for anything: it's not enough magnification to really reach out, and not a true 1x for CQ.

Mercs

09-04-20, 09:44

I saw that listed on their site, sounds like they've upgraded the glass. My only problem with a fixed 2x is basically it's not really optimized for anything: it's not enough magnification to really reach out, and not a true 1x for CQ.

You can shoot it with both eyes open like a red dot for cqb if you turn on the illumination, put the reticle on the target and there is minimal parallax shift when using it that way

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mig1nc

09-04-20, 09:48

You can shoot it with both eyes open like a red dot for cqb if you turn on the illumination, put the reticle on the target and there is minimal parallax shift when using it that way

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Plus, as has been stated elsewhere, the GLx series is made in the Philippines not China.

So that's another plus.

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Blackhalo

09-04-20, 13:22

Plus, as has been stated elsewhere, the GLx series is made in the Philippines not China.

So that's another plus.

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Not the Prism :(

I've got one on order and would have ordered one a while ago if they were. I'm trying to go away from China stuff, hopefully in the future they can move their factories elsewhere.

Blackhalo

09-04-20, 13:24

I saw that listed on their site, sounds like they've upgraded the glass. My only problem with a fixed 2x is basically it's not really optimized for anything: it's not enough magnification to really reach out, and not a true 1x for CQ.

I think it's a good Balance. The ACSS can be hard to pickup on 1x optics. Should be a good SHTF optic.

marsh1

09-04-20, 14:22

I think it's a good Balance. The ACSS can be hard to pickup on 1x optics. Should be a good SHTF optic.

With the 1X Cyclops just put if more forward. Reticle appears bigger and eye relief can handle it

marsh1

09-04-20, 14:34

1x: Yes. Have it, still use it and love it. Fantastic RDS alternative.
2x: I don't see the point, though I've only emulated it with an LPVO @2x, maybe it's better live?
2.5x: See above
3x: I've done it, and it does work pretty well as a do all, but i'm over it.
4x: I don't think anyone other than Trijicon makes one anymore?
5x: I have tried the Burris 536 with piggyback and offset Fastfire 3. It should have worked, but the incredibly tiny eyebox of the 536 kills it for anything other than benchwork.

The Primary Arms Glx 2x has my attention, but yet again, they put horribly dinky reticle in it, I'm reading and seeing mixed claims of brightness, and now they're having cracked base problems because china is being china.

Plenty of feedback on a 2X including people in this thread also a 10 page thread on Arfcom. No issues with reticle size. It is daylight bright. This is different than a red dot. You have a crisp balk reticle that is better in some situations. Base was wrong material used on clamp, we missed it. We have already replaced them for customers. If you buy from our .com you have 90 days to send it back on our dime with no questions asked. ColtSeavers would love to get one in your hands!!

marsh1

09-04-20, 14:45

If you find your 1X Cyclops reticle small push it forward. The eye relief can handle it and that makes reticle appear larger.

marsh1

09-04-20, 15:03

I saw that listed on their site, sounds like they've upgraded the glass. My only problem with a fixed 2x is basically it's not really optimized for anything: it's not enough magnification to really reach out, and not a true 1x for CQ.

Glass was not upgraded. This is our all new mid tier line called GLx. New design from the ground up. IMHO 1.5-2X is perfect for a home defense carbine. Based on the popularity of the new 2X a lot of other people agree.

Disciple

09-04-20, 16:25

IMHO 1.5-2X is perfect for a home defense carbine. Based on the popularity of the new 2X a lot of other people agree.

How is this generally utilized? Both eye open "Bindon Aiming Concept" or focus through the tube taking advantage of the relatively wide FoV at 2X?

maximus83

09-04-20, 16:47

Glass was not upgraded. This is our all new mid tier line called GLx. New design from the ground up. IMHO 1.5-2X is perfect for a home defense carbine. Based on the popularity of the new 2X a lot of other people agree.

Home defense carbines don't need magnification--they need a true 1x--which this sight doesn't give you.

Also, another made-in-China optic. Pass....

marsh1

09-04-20, 16:56

How is this generally utilized? Both eye open "Bindon Aiming Concept" or focus through the tube taking advantage of the relatively wide FoV at 2X?

I shoot both eyes open. The brain will quickly adjust so you still have situational awareness using both eyes but can easily take shot at very short distance if needed.

marsh1

09-04-20, 17:28

Home defense carbines don't need magnification--they need a true 1x--which this sight doesn't give you.

Also, another made-in-China optic. Pass....

It is a prism scope thread so I will qualify my statement by saying home property defense. We know that is what many will be using them for. It is not an off the shelf design. Our design new from the ground up but yes made in China. With the 20%+ current import duties and political climate everyone is exploring alternatives but we have been using this OEM for 10+ years and they produce a quality product to our specs. That said we have the same ACSS reticle in the TA44 1.5X Acog.

maximus83

09-04-20, 17:36

It is a prism scope thread so I will qualify my statement by saying home property defense. We know that is what many will be using them for.

Fair enough, good clarification.

maximus83

09-04-20, 17:41

No issues with reticle size. It is daylight bright. This is different than a red dot. You have a crisp balk reticle that is better in some situations.

I agree with this completely. The reticle size on the P.A. prism optics is a canard. You hear a few folks repeat it, honestly don't get why folks say this, it's not my experience of these reticles. I still have the 1x Cyclops prism sight, it's the only Chinese-made optic I still have. And though I wouldn't buy it today because it was made in China, in spite of that it's an outstanding optic and reticle. I'd put it up against any other 1x optic I've had for precision, getting quickly on target, and a robust design that has been torture tested. Including my Aimpoint T1 and T2.

What people forget about the 1x reticle is that it has the large horseshoe for close range shooting, I'm not sure how many MOA wide that thing is--even the manual doesn't specify the subtensions on the horseshoe (Marshall, do you know?). But even with my aging eyes and astigmatism, it's easy to use that at close range and it's daylight bright. Just shot it today in bright sunlight, had to set in on 11 to get full brightness, but it was fine. The little chevron aiming point in the reticle *is* tiny, but it's supposed to be, that is your precision aiming point you only use when you're setting up on a target. I like having the option to use this because it obscures less of the target than almost any red dot does, and when I compare it to my Aimpoints, which are never perfectly round dots, the Cyclops chevron is crystal clear.

If P.A. would just take this excellent sight design, and get it made by one of our allies or any friendly democratic country, I'd happily pay an increased price on this scope if necessary, and would probably buy another 1 or 2 of them. Going back to the point of this thread, I wish that more prism sights would be made, I hope that other makers follow P.A.'s lead and keep designing these, they're far superior to red dot optics for clarity, accuracy, and plus there's the simple fact that with a glass-etched reticle, you have a built-in backup for dead batteries.

marsh1

09-04-20, 18:34

I agree with this completely. The reticle size on the P.A. prism optics is a canard. You hear a few folks repeat it, honestly don't get why folks say this, it's not my experience of these reticles. I still have the 1x Cyclops prism sight, it's the only Chinese-made optic I still have. And though I wouldn't buy it today because it was made in China, in spite of that it's an outstanding optic and reticle. I'd put it up against any other 1x optic I've had for precision, getting quickly on target, and a robust design that has been torture tested. Including my Aimpoint T1 and T2.

What people forget about the 1x reticle is that it has the large horseshoe for close range shooting, I'm not sure how many MOA wide that thing is--even the manual doesn't specify the subtensions on the horseshoe (Marshall, do you know?). But even with my aging eyes and astigmatism, it's easy to use that at close range and it's daylight bright. Just shot it today in bright sunlight, had to set in on 11 to get full brightness, but it was fine. The little chevron aiming point in the reticle *is* tiny, but it's supposed to be, that is your precision aiming point you only use when you're setting up on a target. I like having the option to use this because it obscures less of the target than almost any red dot does, and when I compare it to my Aimpoints, which are never perfectly round dots, the Cyclops chevron is crystal clear.

If P.A. would just take this excellent sight design, and get it made by one of our allies or any friendly democratic country, I'd happily pay an increased price on this scope if necessary, and would probably buy another 1 or 2 of them. Going back to the point of this thread, I wish that more prism sights would be made, I hope that other makers follow P.A.'s lead and keep designing these, they're far superior to red dot optics for clarity, accuracy, and plus there's the simple fact that with a glass-etched reticle, you have a built-in backup for dead batteries.

My comment about no issues with size was referring to the new 2X. For some the 1X with Cyclops reticle does appear small. That is why I posted above that the easy fix is to run it more forward than is 100% ideal for eye relief. Makes it appear bigger without impacting effectiveness. To actually make it bigger you would change the zero point which has been discussed. I will look up the MOA measurement when I get back on Tuesday

maximus83

09-04-20, 18:53

My comment about no issues with size was referring to the new 2X. For some the 1X with Cyclops reticle does appear small. That is why I posted above that the easy fix is to run it more forward than is 100% ideal for eye relief. Makes it appear bigger without impacting effectiveness. To actually make it bigger you would change the zero point which has been discussed. I will look up the MOA measurement when I get back on Tuesday

To put the Cyclops horseshoe reticle in perspective: my Leupold MK IV 1.5-5.5x20 scope has the CMR-2 horseshoe reticle (https://www.leupold.com/reticles/reticle-cm-r2-illuminated-41) that has a 5 MOA inner circle, a 7.5 MOA outer circle, all around a half MOA aiming dot. That is easy to see and I've heard only a few folks complain it was too small, there are still people seeking that now-discontinued scope even today for its great glass, light weight, and reticle. In a visual comparison, the Cyclops ACSS horseshoe reticle appears almost identical to me in size, it's at least as easy to see, maybe more so as the Cyclops illumination is a bit stronger than the Leupold's. I'd guess the inner diameter of the Cyclops circle is very close to the Leupold's, be surprised if it's not at least 3 MOA. Still don't get why anyone has any trouble seeing the horseshoe for fast heads-up close range shooting, I can acquire it faster than my 2 MOA Aimpoint dots which are definitely smaller. If you have no problem acquiring an Aimpoint, you should have no problem with this reticle.

Disciple

09-04-20, 19:11

If someone were expecting or used to a 65 MOA circle I could see how that might still be described as small.

Canonshooter

09-10-20, 06:12

I shoot both eyes open. The brain will quickly adjust so you still have situational awareness using both eyes but can easily take shot at very short distance if needed.

This is true. Also, long eye relief greatly aids both-eyes-open shooting.

I offer the following strictly based on my own experience. It's an easy one to dismiss out of hand (as I suspect many will), but I'll take the time to offer input on it as a data point of one.

After decades of less-than-happiness trying Aimpoints (blurry dot from astigmatism), LPVOs (too heavy, other issues with the models I tried), 1x prism sights (Leupold Prismatic, would have been better as a 2x) and compact ACOGs (no diopter adjustment), I'm now using a setup I decided to try entirely on a whim;

https://i.ibb.co/7j48Zjp/rifle-3.jpg

Leupold FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm (https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rimfire-scopes/fx-ii-ultralight-2-5x20mm) in a DD mount (https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defenser-1-optics-mount-double-ring.html).

I've been using this setup for a few years and have been surprisingly happy with it. For my use, which is recreational shooting from CQC ranges out to 300 yards, it fits the bill far better than I thought it would.

A few key points;

Light weight - scope and mount combined weigh 12 ounces
Exceptional eye relief - nearly five inches (look at the position of the scope on the upper and all the room to grab the CH)
Forgiving eye box
Excellent glass
Very streamlined and "snag free" with no large turrets or mounting levers/nuts protruding
Due to the long eye relief, forgiving eye box and slim design, very easy to shoot with both eyes open
Simple, non-illuminated duplex reticle that can be rendered razor sharp with the adjustable/lockable ocular
Actual magnification is 2.2x

I use the scope as my primary sighting device with the MI Combat Rifle Offset Sight Set (https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/Combat-Rifle-Offset-Sight-Set-p/mi-crs-oss.htm) as back-up. I have the scope zeroed at 200 yards "Maximum Point Blank Range" style which allows simple center aim out to 230 yards with no more than +/- 2 inches of deviation of POI from POA. At 300 yards the hold over is nine inches, which is easy to estimate based on target size.

For any low-light applications, the use of a WML makes the reticle pop just fine, or just roll the rifle to use the large aperture MI offset BUIS.

The scope and mount have proven to be rock solid. It's about as simple and "non-tactical" as one can get, but it fits my needs quite well for use on a light weight, general purpose carbine. All for about $400 of made in the USA goodness.

FWIW and undoubtedly not for everybody, but I really like this setup...