View Full Version : PCC comparison and questions thread
has anyone done "the chart" that compares popular PCC, scorpion, stribog A1/A3, B&T etc?
I'm wondering why some guns like the B&T APC9K pro seem to have a mystique but on paper look kinda crappy. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not delayed blowback, much less roller delayed, right? it uses straight instead of curved mags. it looks like the barrel is really high compared to the grip, which would cause it to rotate in recoil more than competitors that let you get a "higher grip". the ergos for support hand look suboptimal, with the square mag well and in the review videos most people seem to have the tips of their fingers almost overlapping the ejection port. and the controls look proprietary unlike say the scorpion that you can run like an ar15 or an mp5.
but i still want one lol
granted, you usually have to make compromises to get a micro or "kompact" version, which is what i'd be interested in, but is there something i'm missing that justifies the price?
the stribog is very reasonably priced, and it looks like the A3 version is delayed, but I wonder what reliability is like, given the malfunctions in some of the videos.
has anyone worn any of these out yet? i'm a few thousand rounds into a scorpion micro, which is fantastic, but looks somewhat larger than the B&T. I wonder what parts will fail first. I like it so much i feel like I should buy another just for backup/parts gun. i did order some repair parts just in case. pins, springs and buffer.
if you were making a chart, what would you put on it?
size would be a nice start, since most of the ads for these don't say how large they are
B&T is a high grade, high QC manufacturer. Striborg not so much.
Also "features" don't equate to quality, A Colt 9mm SBR is straight blowback, a bunch of substandard HK clones are "roller delayed", but that don't make them as good as HK or even a Colt blowback.
There's not a chart so far as I know. But keep in mind the AR chart had nothing to do with "features", it was specifications. You seem to want to create a features chart which will do nothing to separate the quality and reliable from everything else.
As an example my XCR has a lot of cool features, and as a concept gun I enjoy it. But it might be the last thing I'd grab for any kind of HD scenario. It is a very unproven weapon system.
RetroRevolver77
07-22-20, 10:56
Delete.
I already have a scorpion micro with Osprey that I’ve shot a few thousand rounds through since beginning of the year. I love it. My question is ultimately do I also need a b&t and stribog etc.
I’ve used mp5 a lot (including FoF) but I’m not really a huge fan of them. I had an hk ump in 45 and liked it but eventually sold it. Also had ps90.
I don’t really want to make a chart myself. Lol I’m too lazy. I’m not trying to debate the difference between specs and features. I just want a compare and contrast. How are these guns different?
What makes b&t high grade?
Obligatory pics
Took the peq off since then and replaced it with the streamlight IR light and laser
Eurodriver
07-22-20, 13:39
What makes b&t high grade?
Same thing that makes anything high grade.
Quality of manufacturing. Materials. QC. Known reliability/accuracy.
I own an APC9 Pro and an APC9k Pro (and some others)
My buddy has a Scorpion.
They are the “same” in the same way Noveske and PSA AR15s are the “same”. They both make 9mm sized holes where you point them. They are both blow back. They are both relatively similar in size and weight (the B&T 9k is significantly smaller though than everything)
The Scorpion looks and feels and in some ways behaves like it costs $1,200 less than the B&T.
Some people just like having nice things. It’s what keeps Aston Martin and Louis Vuitton in business when a Hyundai or a Walmart purse will do the “same” thing.
I went through the same mental process. The gun is smooth as silk to me. Pull the bolt back and it’s smooth, very smooth. I never noticed the higher grip angle and never felt it. Me and my buddy that has every sub gun on the planet did a sub gun fest. All were more similar than different, but you can see and feel the quality of the APC over the cheaper counter parts. I did a thread on it with pics somewhere on here. Everything ran 100%.
My buddy prefers the K versions of all sub guns but usually buys both. No kids ! I bought Pro longer barrel. After shooting and looking at mine, he was like yours really isn’t that much bigger.
I’d like to get the 45, but money doesn’t grow in trees in my hood. Good luck with your decision.
PB
I got a Stribog, but at this point I could only recommend as a toy. They are still working out the magazine, and until that is rock solid, it isn’t a good proposition for most people. Why? If you need only one gun that works because that’s all the money you have, then this isn’t it yet. If you have enough money to waste on a toy that doesn’t have to work all the time, you probably also have enough to buy something that costs more but has better construction, materials, or design.
I’m not disappointed in the purchase, but it wasn’t my wisest. The magazine problems are known, but I didn’t realize how common before I picked up the Stribog. We’ll see how mine do.
The comparison of Aston Martin to Hyundai is more fair than Noveske to PSA. Assuming the new mags work all the time, it’s more KAC (B&T) to BCM (Grand Power). Just my not-poor but fairly-cheap opinion.
HardToHandle
07-22-20, 18:36
Same thing that makes anything high grade.
Some people just like having nice things. It’s what keeps Aston Martin and Louis Vuitton in business when a Hyundai or a Walmart purse will do the “same” thing.
I have five PCC/braced pistols. I am still looking for perfect, but Eurodriver nailed it - refinement costs. Some folks will pay the price, some will not.
I have one straight blowback 9mm AR that is almost roller delayed smooth. That was a pricey custom AR pistol to build, but exceeded my expectations. That said, you can spend $150 more and get a roller delayed blowback HK clone.
I've given up for now on the PCC holy grail.
Focusing on shotguns again lately.
Rifle > Shotgun > Pistol. No place for a PCC at this time for me. (I just realized my time training and practicing has actually been pistol, then shotgun, then rifle)
As for a PCC for fun plinking, a .22 lr does it cheaper.
There is no “perfect” PCC/SMG. There are pros and cons to all. Like all things, internet “research” is a poor substitute for hands-on experience with these things. You won’t go wrong with an HK SP5 or SP5K or B&T APC series, albeit at greater expense than other options. I personally hate the straight blowback Colt 635 iterations. The Stribog is not yet ready for prime time, though the new a1 delayed blowback and steel reinforced feedlip magazine may be the ticket - buy one and find out for yourself, if you don’t like it you can sell it.
One sleeper that doesn’t get enough mention is the Cmmg radially delayed blowback 9mm. It’s very smooth shooting, feels subjectively similar to a full-size mp5 with the right spring and buffer combo, and runs reliably with MEAN Endomags. We have some that are run on fullauto lowers and they are great. You’re better off buying the bolt group and barrel, building on an Aero XL ejection port upper with your rail du jour vs buying a complete upper from cmmg.
Just get an HK MP5. Sure it's expensive but it's the most widely distributed and easiest to acquire spare parts. It's essentially the standard.
At the end of the day there is a reason its still considered the gold standard. Its reliability is proven and nothing else I've shot is as smooth. The Sig MPX comes close though.
Honestly is sig hadn't screwed up the mpx with qc issues and well lack of parts that were promised it could be a contender. I've heard of people having issues with the piston system but never had the issue with mine.
Edit: Now if PCS could ever finish their axis system it could have some great potential. Modern MP5 using the roller lock setup but with billet aluminium receiver that you can caliber convert. Uses the hk roller lock trigger pack which means that style safety but they have atf approval for sear owners so yea. Later versions of the prototype are using ump mags so it can support last round hold open. Gun is convertible from a k config to full size too. On the early lowers with mp5 mags he had it drop free as well.
hotrodder636
07-23-20, 08:07
I have 2 B&T PCCs, the APC9 Pro and the KH9. My comparison to other things would be similar to how Euro describe LV and Walmart but I was going to use watches: you have nice Swiss watches like Patek Phillips (B&T) vs Stribog/Scorpion (Tavg Heuer). Nice things are nicer and cost money.
I have a CMMG Banshee, so far it’s my fave. I have the 5” barreled pistol. To be honest, I don’t think it’s recoil is that light, but I haven’t tuned it either. But one thing it definitely is, is light. It is maybe 4 1/2lbs. I also dig the AR controls. And while the angled magwell needed for Glock mags kinda sucks, I appreciate being able to share mags with my Glocks. It allowed me to get rid of those Scorpions and a Beretta Storm. I’ll be putting up for sale a B&T GHM9 I never fired...that’s how much I like my Banshee.
So are you guys saying the hk mp9 is still better than the b&t?
I’ve used the mp5 several times since the 80s and at several points in time almost bought one back when they were like $5000 and then $18000 (a k model and an sd model) (but I bought an m60 and registered AR lower instead). I love the guns from a collector pov but i never warmed up to using them practically. Lots of PD still have them stuffed in lockers and drag them to the range occasionally. Several guys who use them for work used to dog them as unreliable. I mean for usability I’d take my semi auto scorpion micro suppressed over a semi auto hk suppressed. So I was expecting you guys to say the b&t is way better than the mp5. If that’s not the case then I’m definitely not interested.
Don’t get me wrong. I appreciate refinement and quality. Heck my daily carry for ten years was a Wilson combat super grade compact. But no matter how well it fit together and how crisp the trigger was and nice the hand checkering and stippling was, I get hits faster with a $500 plastic gun so that’s what I carry now.
Have you guys shot the b&t vs hk vs scorpion on the clock? If you tell me the b&t is faster and more reliable I’ll believe you. But stuff like the straight mags makes me skeptical
Thanks for the thoughtful responses
Eurodriver
07-24-20, 16:16
I think you’re overthinking things.
I am faster with the B&T APC9 Pro than I am with an HK SP5 but that’s only because I shoot it more often and it has better ergos and an Aimpoint T1.
Both are dead nuts reliable. Too many people using clones/US made shit/non HK mags on MP5s for me to base any decisions on how they performed 40 years ago.
MountainRaven
07-24-20, 16:25
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone who has actually used an MP5 complain about it (except when they wished they had a rifle).
You don’t become king of the subguns by having shit reliability when the competition are Uzis and Colts (both straight blowback operated subguns using double-stack, double-position feed magazines).
Good thread.
Other than what I've found out online I know very little about PCC/PDW's, I did get to handle a reasonably priced Micro Scorpion the other day at the LGS and let it get away because I couldn't make a $1200 decision, I just don't know enough about them.
At this point I'm considering the 8" Scorpion and modifying it with HB parts to my liking or the CMMG 9mm but I think I want it with the 8" barrel for both real estate and velocity. The Banshee 300 with the 5" looks good. The wife and I have medium to small hands but I don't see enough room there for a flash light. Trying to put together an 8" CMMG might be a challenge with this market. I haven't ruled out the 5", there might be a light solution I'm not aware of.
The 8" Scorpion seems easier to find at the moment. I'm stuck with 15 rnd., mag limit for the time being whichever way I go. I'd cough up the extra cash for a B&T if it was really worth it.
Reliable feeding of hollow points is a must. If it isn't a 99% reliable self defense option I'm not interested. I've decided not to go less than 16" with 5.56 AR's w/o a suppressor, so AR15 5.56 pistol isn't an option.
Another issue I'm struggling with is do I really need it? Husband and wife home and possible vehicle defense and range use, we're just outside a large metro area which we both travel through for business purposes. Something that would fold or collapse into a 20" backpack type of PDW.
Interesting thread. Having shot MP5’s, albeit clones, Blowback AR9’s, MPX’s and Scorpion’s, the MPX was the standout for me. There’s definitely a B&T in my future tho. Probably an APC9K for extra handiness.
So are you guys saying the hk mp9 is still better than the b&t?
I’ve used the mp5 several times since the 80s and at several points in time almost bought one back when they were like $5000 and then $18000 (a k model and an sd model) (but I bought an m60 and registered AR lower instead). I love the guns from a collector pov but i never warmed up to using them practically. Lots of PD still have them stuffed in lockers and drag them to the range occasionally. Several guys who use them for work used to dog them as unreliable. I mean for usability I’d take my semi auto scorpion micro suppressed over a semi auto hk suppressed. So I was expecting you guys to say the b&t is way better than the mp5. If that’s not the case then I’m definitely not interested.
Don’t get me wrong. I appreciate refinement and quality. Heck my daily carry for ten years was a Wilson combat super grade compact. But no matter how well it fit together and how crisp the trigger was and nice the hand checkering and stippling was, I get hits faster with a $500 plastic gun so that’s what I carry now.
Have you guys shot the b&t vs hk vs scorpion on the clock? If you tell me the b&t is faster and more reliable I’ll believe you. But stuff like the straight mags makes me skeptical
Thanks for the thoughtful responses
The b&t APC9 Pro wins over the MP5 in my opinion due to the better ergonomics, last round bolt catch, and optic mounting capabilities.
The b&t APC9 Pro wins over the MP5 in my opinion due to the better ergonomics, last round bolt catch, and optic mounting capabilities.
I agree with this and sold my Z5P to fund an APC9 Pro. Now if only the eForm 1 would clear. Been pending since 5/11, the 'ask the experts' email says it's in delay status pending FBI background checks.
https://i.imgur.com/49bCMvI.jpg
I gotta say though, this thing is phenomenal at banging up steel at night under nods.
Good thread.
Other than what I've found out online I know very little about PCC/PDW's, I did get to handle a reasonably priced Micro Scorpion the other day at the LGS and let it get away because I couldn't make a $1200 decision, I just don't know enough about them.
At this point I'm considering the 8" Scorpion and modifying it with HB parts to my liking or the CMMG 9mm but I think I want it with the 8" barrel for both real estate and velocity. The Banshee 300 with the 5" looks good. The wife and I have medium to small hands but I don't see enough room there for a flash light. Trying to put together an 8" CMMG might be a challenge with this market. I haven't ruled out the 5", there might be a light solution I'm not aware of.
The 8" Scorpion seems easier to find at the moment. I'm stuck with 15 rnd., mag limit for the time being whichever way I go. I'd cough up the extra cash for a B&T if it was really worth it.
Reliable feeding of hollow points is a must. If it isn't a 99% reliable self defense option I'm not interested. I've decided not to go less than 16" with 5.56 AR's w/o a suppressor, so AR15 5.56 pistol isn't an option.
Another issue I'm struggling with is do I really need it? Husband and wife home and possible vehicle defense and range use, we're just outside a large metro area which we both travel through for business purposes. Something that would fold or collapse into a 20" backpack type of PDW.
Putting a light on a 5”Banshee, I think my choice is an Inforce WML mounted at 12, at end of rail. Leave a little space behind it, then add front buis. This allows for a c-clamp hold. The short sight radius is no big deal because you will use a red dot of some kind anyway.
half way there
Are you just replying to every single thread on this sight with worthless responses?
Are you just replying to every single thread on this sight with worthless responses?
Yes..
call_me_ski
08-06-20, 13:28
Must have something he needs to sell quickly...
Looks like he got Arkansided.
RetroRevolver77
08-08-20, 18:35
delete
I can mount an optic on an MP5. Last round bolt hold open is over rated as I can reload before I'm empty if needed. So basically it's a got a bolt catch. Not sure if it's worth dumping proven MP5's over something that is relatively new and not widely distributed.
Next Gen MP5s had a last round bolt hold open and if HK wasn't trying to discontinue the MP5 series they'd have made a Gen II MP5 in 9mm. But they wanted to move onto the UMP, unfortunately for them almost nobody gave a damn about the UMP, especially after they shot one.
HK could have easily also incorporated a top rail onto the MP5 either going the Swiss San route (similar to the MSG90) or with a little more direct welding like the PSG1. Would have been easy, but back in the late 60s they were making a mass production SMG and optics and features like a last round bolt hold open weren't really what subguns (especially euro subguns) were about.
The MP5 is a victim of it's own success in that it is still a viable platform 50 years later. It really is a shame they didn't go into production with the MP5/45 with a dedicated magazine, last round bolt hold open (like we saw with the 10 and 40) and a top rail solution. But they were in development of their SMG I and SMG II and with the success of the Mark 23 / USP series of handguns they were fully committed to bringing in the next generation polymer SMG which would become the UMP which had ALL of those features.
HK actively tried to retire the MP5 on several occasions, when they finally stopped making the G3 and all of it's derivative models they really only had the HK 53 and the MP5 as legacy "stamped receiver / roller bolt" guns. I think the 53 may still be in production but I'm not certain.
Eurodriver
08-09-20, 06:16
I can mount an optic on an MP5. Last round bolt hold open is over rated as I can reload before I'm empty if needed. So basically it's a got a bolt catch. Not sure if it's worth dumping proven MP5's over something that is relatively new and not widely distributed.
The APC9 series is over ten years old and used by quite a few LEA’s and the US Army.
Everything is going to be “relatively new” compared to the MP5.
The MP5 is the 1911 of subguns, with all the positive and negative connotations that come with it.
HardToHandle
08-09-20, 20:53
So are you guys saying the hk mp9 is still better than the b&t?
I’ve used the mp5 several times since the 80s and at several points in time almost bought one back when they were like $5000 and then $18000 (a k model and an sd model) (but I bought an m60 and registered AR lower instead). I love the guns from a collector pov but i never warmed up to using them practically. Lots of PD still have them stuffed in lockers and drag them to the range occasionally. Several guys who use them for work used to dog them as unreliable. I mean for usability I’d take my semi auto scorpion micro suppressed over a semi auto hk suppressed. So I was expecting you guys to say the b&t is way better than the mp5. If that’s not the case then I’m definitely not interested.
Don’t get me wrong. I appreciate refinement and quality. Heck my daily carry for ten years was a Wilson combat super grade compact. But no matter how well it fit together and how crisp the trigger was and nice the hand checkering and stippling was, I get hits faster with a $500 plastic gun so that’s what I carry now.
Have you guys shot the b&t vs hk vs scorpion on the clock? If you tell me the b&t is faster and more reliable I’ll believe you. But stuff like the straight mags makes me skeptical
Thanks for the thoughtful responses
Magazines. MP5 wins. Hands down.
B&T is great, except for their plastic mags. Their mags are good, but simply lack a commendable 55 year track record of H&K steel.
As the owner of both systems, I just have considerably more trust in the H&K execution.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-09-20, 21:43
As for a PCC for fun plinking, a .22 lr does it cheaper.
I go back and forth on this point. PCC is fun, but all pistol rounds suck for SD, so I’ll go More towards an AR rifle round gun- so that leaves PCC for fun, so why not 22lr at that point?
That said, an MP5 variant sounds like a hoot.
I go back and forth on this point. PCC is fun, but all pistol rounds suck for SD, so I’ll go More towards an AR rifle round gun- so that leaves PCC for fun, so why not 22lr at that point?
That said, an MP5 variant sounds like a hoot.
22lr just doesn't do it for me and I have 3 machineguns I can run it in. It just doesn't have enough recoil and yes I know that kinda sounds like a weird thing to complain about. It just doesn't feel like shooting a gun to me. Even the lack of weight in the magazines throws me off. Short of like some target practice of aluminum cans at a farm or something it just doesn't get broken out much. That and lack of magazine capacity in 22lr pistols.
My m16 with a 22lr upper will get run to hell and back at MG shoots as people enjoy it. I'd rather shoot a subgun or something else though.
I can mount an optic on an MP5. Last round bolt hold open is over rated as I can reload before I'm empty if needed. So basically it's a got a bolt catch. Not sure if it's worth dumping proven MP5's over something that is relatively new and not widely distributed.
Where did you see me suggest dumping the mp5? I would never do such a thing. I love my mp5s and would never get rid of them. Objectively and in actual use, the APC9 series beats the mp5. From the standpoint of collecting and shooting, the MP5-N is my choice above all other SMGs.
Next Gen MP5s had a last round bolt hold open and if HK wasn't trying to discontinue the MP5 series they'd have made a Gen II MP5 in 9mm. But they wanted to move onto the UMP, unfortunately for them almost nobody gave a damn about the UMP, especially after they shot one.
HK could have easily also incorporated a top rail onto the MP5 either going the Swiss San route (similar to the MSG90) or with a little more direct welding like the PSG1. Would have been easy, but back in the late 60s they were making a mass production SMG and optics and features like a last round bolt hold open weren't really what subguns (especially euro subguns) were about.
The MP5 is a victim of it's own success in that it is still a viable platform 50 years later. It really is a shame they didn't go into production with the MP5/45 with a dedicated magazine, last round bolt hold open (like we saw with the 10 and 40) and a top rail solution. But they were in development of their SMG I and SMG II and with the success of the Mark 23 / USP series of handguns they were fully committed to bringing in the next generation polymer SMG which would become the UMP which had ALL of those features.
HK actively tried to retire the MP5 on several occasions, when they finally stopped making the G3 and all of it's derivative models they really only had the HK 53 and the MP5 as legacy "stamped receiver / roller bolt" guns. I think the 53 may still be in production but I'm not certain.
The MP5 should have also been upgraded to a E/G41 type extractor design.
I have a love for the MP5. I sold a Scorpion Evo to help fund one.
That being said, if I had to choose a subgun to fight with, the MP5 wouldn't be my choice. The B&T APC or even the GHM9 would be my first choice, with the Sig MPX being the next. While the APC is a blow back gun, it does have recoil mitigation technology in the design that works well. I found it very easy to shoot off rapid strings of fire at moderate distances, 20-50 yards, and still get good repeatable hits on a steel IPSC.
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