View Full Version : H&K under new ownership
Seems they're turning a profit recently, which is good news:
"A Luxembourg-based financial holding company, Compagnie de Développement de l’Eau (CDE), which has been shareholders in Heckler & Koch AG for a number of years, has taken over a majority stake in the company. HK returned to profit in 2019 for the first time in several years, with continued investment they hope to continue this trend and also secure 900 jobs in Oberndorf."
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/07/22/new-owners-for-heckler-koch/
hotrodder636
07-22-20, 19:52
Good news for us HK junkies.
Very good news. Maybe one day they will become customer service orientated to civies. Or any fkg body.
PB
Start with more HK innovation..
hotrodder636
07-22-20, 20:02
I just want more SP5s, so I can get 2...at least 1.
Start with more HK innovation..
We still suck and the still hate us. I hope they let social media girl keep her job, she spits fire.
I just want more SP5s, so I can get 2...at least 1.
I hear ya...lol.
MountainRaven
07-22-20, 21:29
Very good news. Maybe one day they will become customer service orientated to civies. Or any fkg body.
Everybody I've spoken to who has actually dealt with H&K's CS has said it's actually pretty good.
Start with more HK innovation..
I think HK has just about made itself irrelevant from a civi point of view. The only HK product I have any interest in is the VP9, yet I chose the PPQ M2 instead. HK rifles are overpriced and heavy, again I chose the SCAR (which is just overpriced) and I can get parts for it.
Forget the HK 5.56 offerings, they have nothing to offer me. The American ARs are so good now, Geissele is offering them in like six different colors so you can match them to your favorite boogaloo Hawaiian shirt.
Unless they innovate their Teutonic asses off, they are dead to me.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-22-20, 22:22
Hopefully good news. I am glad to see H&K is making money again.
BoringGuy45
07-23-20, 06:46
I think HK has just about made itself irrelevant from a civi point of view. The only HK product I have any interest in is the VP9, yet I chose the PPQ M2 instead. HK rifles are overpriced and heavy, again I chose the SCAR (which is just overpriced) and I can get parts for it.
Forget the HK 5.56 offerings, they have nothing to offer me. The American ARs are so good now, Geissele is offering them in like six different colors so you can match them to your favorite boogaloo Hawaiian shirt.
Unless they innovate their Teutonic asses off, they are dead to me.
I agree. HK makes some of the best stuff in the world, but nothing justified from their price point. The MR556 isn't even close to justifying its price tag. Even if it was a true civilian legal 416, it still wouldn't justify the cost considering other great piston AR offerings from PWS and LMT. They screwed the pooch on that one; if they offered real (semi-auto) 416s to the civilian market for even just $1000 less, they'd sell like hotcakes just because of their lore of being the gun that shot OBL.
Phillygunguy
07-23-20, 07:22
I agree. HK makes some of the best stuff in the world, but nothing justified from their price point. The MR556 isn't even close to justifying its price tag. Even if it was a true civilian legal 416, it still wouldn't justify the cost considering other great piston AR offerings from PWS and LMT. They screwed the pooch on that one; if they offered real (semi-auto) 416s to the civilian market for even just $1000 less, they'd sell like hotcakes just because of their lore of being the gun that shot OBL.
I'd like a civilian g36 myself at that price point. But they'll be some people questioning quality if it's priced cheaper
The_War_Wagon
07-23-20, 07:27
As long as it's NOT Cerberus!!! :fie:
Adrenaline_6
07-23-20, 08:24
I agree. HK makes some of the best stuff in the world, but nothing justified from their price point. The MR556 isn't even close to justifying its price tag. Even if it was a true civilian legal 416, it still wouldn't justify the cost considering other great piston AR offerings from PWS and LMT. They screwed the pooch on that one; if they offered real (semi-auto) 416s to the civilian market for even just $1000 less, they'd sell like hotcakes just because of their lore of being the gun that shot OBL.
I think HK has just about made itself irrelevant from a civi point of view. The only HK product I have any interest in is the VP9, yet I chose the PPQ M2 instead. HK rifles are overpriced and heavy, again I chose the SCAR (which is just overpriced) and I can get parts for it.
Forget the HK 5.56 offerings, they have nothing to offer me. The American ARs are so good now, Geissele is offering them in like six different colors so you can match them to your favorite boogaloo Hawaiian shirt.
Unless they innovate their Teutonic asses off, they are dead to me.
They would...but they can't. Do you think they would got through the time and expense of R&D'ing a civilian version of an already proven existing weapon for nothing? It makes no sense from a business stand point. It has nothing to do with hating us. Its called German export laws. Their hands are tied.
Yeah, social media girl is a dude btw.
Adrenaline_6
07-23-20, 08:41
Yeah, social media girl is a dude btw.
Not that I doubt it, but I haven't seen any confirmation on who "she" is yet. People have been wondering for awhile. I would think "she" is a bunch of people.
Regardless, new ownership should mean new ideas. I'm sick and tired of a company claiming to be "bleeding edge" when they haven't pushed rifle technology in over 40 years. The 416/G36 copy's the FN FAL operating system, while the roller locks clamber all the way back to the STG44. Cool stuff, but I can find other offerings for much cheaper that are leaps and bounds above their "civilian offerings".
Let's jumpstart it: Mp7 pistol chambered in 5.7 for the civilian market.
Their handguns are meh with the hammer fired guns triggers needing some serious work. The HK45 will always have a place in my heart as a lefty.
A new production HK 91 would be nice.
Adrenaline_6
07-23-20, 09:19
Regardless, new ownership should mean new ideas. I'm sick and tired of a company claiming to be "bleeding edge" when they haven't pushed rifle technology in over 40 years. The 416/G36 copy's the FN FAL operating system, while the roller locks clamber all the way back to the STG44. Cool stuff, but I can find other offerings for much cheaper that are leaps and bounds above their "civilian offerings".
Let's jumpstart it: Mp7 pistol chambered in 5.7 for the civilian market.
Their handguns are meh with the hammer fired guns triggers needing some serious work. The HK45 will always have a place in my heart as a lefty.
I feel you, being a preferred lefty myself (I can shoot right also - I just found I shoot left a little better). My P30 fits like a glove and is truly ambi. I hated the trigger at first, but I will admit, although frustrating in the beginning, made me a better shooter. Now, it doesn't bother me a bit. Gray guns has do it yourself kits now if you want to shorten the reset by a third. As far as their hammer fired guns goes, they are as reliable and bulletproof as anything out there and the ergos are as good or better than anything out there. Why would they need to change that? They work - and they work well.
An MP7 in a 5.7 sounds cool, but again, they would have to totally R&D a new AND DIFFERENT MP7 because German laws suck. The juice would have to be worth the squeeze business wise.
A whole lot of high end manufacturers are still making DI rifles. That's "old" technology too...but it works...and works well. Nobody is bashing on them...and they shouldn't.
MountainRaven
07-23-20, 15:14
TommyBuilt Tactical is working on an MP7 clone. In the proper 4.6mm caliber.
I suspect given TBT’s track record with their G36 clones and UMP clones - and H&K’s willingness to share their images on their social media - that H&K is at least tacitly supporting them.
Yes indeed!
A new production HK 91 would be nice.
Did someone say HK91?
https://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p843417471-5.jpg
Did someone say HK91?
https://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p843417471-5.jpg
Thanks, I just drooled all over my phone.....
TommyBuilt Tactical is working on an MP7 clone. In the proper 4.6mm caliber.
I suspect given TBT’s track record with their G36 clones and UMP clones - and H&K’s willingness to share their images on their social media - that H&K is at least tacitly supporting them.
Ahh, the hunt for a 4.6x30mm ammunition source begins.
MountainRaven
07-25-20, 23:20
Ahh, the hunt for a 4.6x30mm ammunition source begins.
I remember seeing Fiocchi 4.6x30mm on MidwayUSA (along with T/C Contender or Encore barrels) over a decade ago.
Looks like SGAmmo has a category for it (but nothing there) and Arms Unlimited lists S&B. Palmetto has Fiocchi in stock (allegedly).
In fact, it looks like most of the major online retailers stock either S&B or Fiocchi or both in 4.6x30mm.
Did someone say HK91?
https://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p843417471-5.jpg
I swear to god from 1981 to 1989 HK ruled the world. Black 91A3 with matching black finish stock, that is just beautiful.
I like the Chantilly rifles too :)
Please HK, don't make me resort to this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br7C5-Mo1nY
I think HK has just about made itself irrelevant from a civi point of view. The only HK product I have any interest in is the VP9, yet I chose the PPQ M2 instead. HK rifles are overpriced and heavy, again I chose the SCAR (which is just overpriced) and I can get parts for it.
Forget the HK 5.56 offerings, they have nothing to offer me. The American ARs are so good now, Geissele is offering them in like six different colors so you can match them to your favorite boogaloo Hawaiian shirt.
Unless they innovate their Teutonic asses off, they are dead to me.If it were not for Ronald Reagans signature in 1986, I would own more H&K products.
The MP7 would be at the top of the list.
I hope they see how well received the SP5 is in the US civilian market and expand upon it with similar good decisions.
I agree. HK makes some of the best stuff in the world, but nothing justified from their price point. The MR556 isn't even close to justifying its price tag. Even if it was a true civilian legal 416, it still wouldn't justify the cost considering other great piston AR offerings from PWS and LMT. They screwed the pooch on that one; if they offered real (semi-auto) 416s to the civilian market for even just $1000 less, they'd sell like hotcakes just because of their lore of being the gun that shot OBL.
I would gladly pay $2500-3500 for a true semiauto 416A5, if made exactly like the mil/LE line but SA only.
Regardless, new ownership should mean new ideas. I'm sick and tired of a company claiming to be "bleeding edge" when they haven't pushed rifle technology in over 40 years. The 416/G36 copy's the FN FAL operating system, while the roller locks clamber all the way back to the STG44. Cool stuff, but I can find other offerings for much cheaper that are leaps and bounds above their "civilian offerings".
Let's jumpstart it: Mp7 pistol chambered in 5.7 for the civilian market.
Their handguns are meh with the hammer fired guns triggers needing some serious work. The HK45 will always have a place in my heart as a lefty.
The g36 is not in the FAL lineage. It’s an AR18 iteration. And the 416 is the adaptation of the g36 gas system into the M16. The similarity to the FAL is in the short stroke piston, which was done prior to the FAL.
The SP7 must be made, I agree. But not in 5.7. Keep it in 4.6. Fiocchi makes reasonably priced 4.6 ammunition.
If it were not for Ronald Reagans signature in 1986, I would own more H&K products.
The MP7 would be at the top of the list.
FOP did not affect imports. That was the 1968 GCA with 925(d)(3), the “sporting clause”, with insult added to injury in 1989 and signed by Bush 1.
If it were not for Ronald Reagans signature in 1986, I would own more H&K products.
The MP7 would be at the top of the list.
Sorry your MP7 was banned back in 1968 by LBJ and the GCA. HK products were imported until 1989 and the Bush 41 EO aka the 1989 Import Ban.
Reagan didn't ban a single HK product.
Adrenaline_6
07-26-20, 19:21
Jeebus people. It doesn't matter what our laws are, was, or will be. German export laws prevent HK from selling any weapon that was meant for the military to be sold to the civilian market semi auto or otherwise. That is why there isn't a semi auto version clone of a 416, MP7 or any other weapon you want them to make for you. This shouldn't be that hard a concept to grasp.
They have to make a new design, which, in the end pisses you people off because it isn't like the original weapon. Its simple. It can't be.
This is why you have the MR556, SP5, and the USC.
FOP did not affect imports. That was the 1968 GCA with 925(d)(3), the “sporting clause”, with insult added to injury in 1989 and signed by Bush 1.
Sorry your MP7 was banned back in 1968 by LBJ and the GCA. HK products were imported until 1989 and the Bush 41 EO aka the 1989 Import Ban.
Reagan didn't ban a single HK product.
Full auto guns made after 86 were banned by Reagan when he signed the Hughes amendment, right? I thought I read that Glock couldn't make a .380 because of sporting clause, but they are selling them now, right?
If not for that H&K COULD have a US plant, like Glock, Sig etc making the MP7 today, right?
Bush 41 EO aka the 1989 Import Ban.
Since it was only an EO, we can get an EO repealing it...
Reagan didn't ban a single HK product.
Well Reagan "banned" new FA H&K for civilians in a sense.
Jeebus people. It doesn't matter what our laws are, was, or will be. German export laws prevent HK from selling any weapon that was meant for the military to be sold to the civilian market semi auto or otherwise. That is why there isn't a semi auto version clone of a 416, MP7 or any other weapon you want them to make for you. This shouldn't be that hard a concept to grasp.
They have to make a new design, which, in the end pisses you people off because it isn't like the original weapon. Its simple. It can't be.
This is why you have the MR556, SP5, and the USC.
Yes, but without the 1968 GCA which has the sporter clause to provide a basis for the 89 import ban, HK could import semi auto versions that are much closer copies as they did with the G3 semi auto, HK41, HK43, HP91, HK93, HK94 and SP89.
If not for the 89 import ban, we could have a 1:1 416, G36, UMP semi auto that simply didn't accept full auto parts without serious modifications to the receiver.
I know exactly what you are talking about regarding German Export Laws and I genuinely appreciate the fact that I'm having this discussion with somebody who actually knows something about something, but those laws have been in place for a long time and we were still importing reasonable semi auto versions of HK military firearms.
Full auto guns made after 86 were banned by Reagan when he signed the Hughes amendment, right? I thought I read that Glock couldn't make a .380 because of sporting clause, but they are selling them now, right?
If not for that H&K COULD have a US plant, like Glock, Sig etc making the MP7 today, right?
No full autos were first banned in 1968 regarding IMPORTS. That is why every transferable MP5 and Uzi began life as a semi auto import. All true machine guns are pre 86 dealer samples, and that applies to every machine gun going back to the 1968 GCA.
This is why domestic machine guns made in 1974 are transferable but anything imported like AKMs, FALs, G3s or MP5s are dealer sample ONLY.
The big thing that changed in 1986 is you could no longer register NEW domestic machine guns that would be transferable. So any M-16s made after that date are post samples, this is why transferable M16A2s cost so much, because so few were made before FOPA went into effect. You could also take a semi auto import and convert it to a machine gun by registering some part (receiver, sear, trigger box) as a domestic machine gun which allowed you to install it in a semi auto host.
But more importantly, of all the versions, Reagan signed the best one. The one Hughes / Rodino wanted to pass would have made ALL NFA weapons non transferable in 1986. That meant those who have them have them and they can't sell them to anyone and once those people die they are forfeited to ATF.
Nobody today would have a legal machine gun, suppressor, SBR or any of that stuff. Not to mention everything else in FOPA 86 that few gun owners would have been able to live under. Pretty much every transaction in every EE on every gun forum would be illegal if not for FOPA 86.
Also it's important to understand what the "sporting clause" is, it's a list of qualifications the ATF uses to decide if a firearm is "suitable" for importation to the US and in some cases if a firearm is suitable for domestic production.
This is why we still cannot have a TRUE Walther PPK imported, the PPK/s is not a PPK. Every legit PPK was imported prior to 1968.
Even if HK had production in the US, they probably couldn't built a semi auto MP7, look at the concessions FN had to make to produce a PS90 carbine, especially when it came to ammo. When they finally offered the USG handgun on the market, the ammo available was a joke, and then ATF declared even that ammo "non suitable" and "armor piercing" and they had to develop even more neutered versions of the 5.7mm round.
This is why everyone is jumping all over the Swiss SAN rifles and B&T imports that somehow managed to get approval for import.
Since it was only an EO, we can get an EO repealing it...
Well Reagan "banned" new FA H&K for civilians in a sense.
Who is going to do it? Who is going to sign an EO that permits new machine guns?
You want to get rid of them all, including the Reagan ban on registering new domestic machine guns? You have to go after the "sporter clause", without that that basic for deciding what guns are suitable and what guns aren't disappears.
But the first time anyone successfully removed large parts of the 1968 Gun Control Act was in 1986 with the very legislation you are talking about, the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. Reagan is the ONLY president who signed any bill into law that removed some of the worst parts of the 1968 GCA.
Prior to that, ammo sales were logged like firearms sales. Dealers recorded who they sold ammo to and how much. There was no such thing as mail order ammo until FOPA.
Surplus military firearms were not importable. So all those K98s, Mosin Nagants, Enfields, SKS rifles and hundreds of military handguns were suddenly eligible for import. That is why pre 68 (mostly veteran bring back) P-38s and Mausers cost thousands of dollars but 1990s imports of Russian captures were a couple hundred dollars.
But the big one was "profitable sales or trades", if you didn't hold a FFL and you made a favorable sale or firearm trade, you could be arrested as an unlicensed dealer. This is why there were so many kitchen table FFLs prior to 1986, every serious collector had one to cover his ass. There were lots of stings at gun shows where ATF agents would sell a gun for $50 and then have uncovers solicit to buy the gun from you for $100, and if you took the deal you were busted.
FOPA drew a clear distinction between collectors and dealers for the first time. Before that it was up to the ATF to decide what they thought you were doing.
Who is going to do it? Who is going to sign an EO that permits new machine guns?
The 89 Bush Ban was not machine guns. It was semi auto rifles. I am not talking about an EO to overturn anything NFA related, but the EO Bush signed that banned import of cool foreign made rifles.
The 89 Bush Ban was not machine guns. It was semi auto rifles. I am not talking about an EO to overturn anything NFA related, but the EO Bush signed that banned import of cool foreign made rifles.
I should have been more clear. When they proposed that ban, the presented it to the public as a ban on machine guns. Hell even with the oncoming sunset of the Clinton Ban, everyone presented it as "machine guns will now be legal."
I had hundreds of emails from people in 2004 who wanted to buy new machine guns thinking that had just finally happened.
They will present semi auto imports in the same light.
I should have been more clear. When they proposed that ban, the presented it to the public as a ban on machine guns. Hell even with the oncoming sunset of the Clinton Ban, everyone presented it as "machine guns will now be legal."
I had hundreds of emails from people in 2004 who wanted to buy new machine guns thinking that had just finally happened.
They will present semi auto imports in the same light.
What does that have to do with anything? Just get Trump to can the 89 Bush EO. Since the 89 Ban was not an act of Congress but an EO than we don't need an act of Congress to overturn it.
No full autos were first banned in 1968 regarding IMPORTS. That is why every transferable MP5 and Uzi began life as a semi auto import. All true machine guns are pre 86 dealer samples, and that applies to every machine gun going back to the 1968 GCA.
This is why domestic machine guns made in 1974 are transferable but anything imported like AKMs, FALs, G3s or MP5s are dealer sample ONLY.
The big thing that changed in 1986 is you could no longer register NEW domestic machine guns that would be transferable. So any M-16s made after that date are post samples, this is why transferable M16A2s cost so much, because so few were made before FOPA went into effect. You could also take a semi auto import and convert it to a machine gun by registering some part (receiver, sear, trigger box) as a domestic machine gun which allowed you to install it in a semi auto host.
But more importantly, of all the versions, Reagan signed the best one. The one Hughes / Rodino wanted to pass would have made ALL NFA weapons non transferable in 1986. That meant those who have them have them and they can't sell them to anyone and once those people die they are forfeited to ATF.
Nobody today would have a legal machine gun, suppressor, SBR or any of that stuff. Not to mention everything else in FOPA 86 that few gun owners would have been able to live under. Pretty much every transaction in every EE on every gun forum would be illegal if not for FOPA 86.
Also it's important to understand what the "sporting clause" is, it's a list of qualifications the ATF uses to decide if a firearm is "suitable" for importation to the US and in some cases if a firearm is suitable for domestic production.
This is why we still cannot have a TRUE Walther PPK imported, the PPK/s is not a PPK. Every legit PPK was imported prior to 1968.
Even if HK had production in the US, they probably couldn't built a semi auto MP7, look at the concessions FN had to make to produce a PS90 carbine, especially when it came to ammo. When they finally offered the USG handgun on the market, the ammo available was a joke, and then ATF declared even that ammo "non suitable" and "armor piercing" and they had to develop even more neutered versions of the 5.7mm round.
This is why everyone is jumping all over the Swiss SAN rifles and B&T imports that somehow managed to get approval for import.Thank you for that explanation, I learned something new today.
I also stand corrected on both my previous posts in this thread.
I swear to god from 1981 to 1989 HK ruled the world. Black 91A3 with matching black finish stock, that is just beautiful.
Thank-you, that means a LOT coming from you.
Adrenaline_6
07-27-20, 15:41
Yes, but without the 1968 GCA which has the sporter clause to provide a basis for the 89 import ban, HK could import semi auto versions that are much closer copies as they did with the G3 semi auto, HK41, HK43, HP91, HK93, HK94 and SP89.
If not for the 89 import ban, we could have a 1:1 416, G36, UMP semi auto that simply didn't accept full auto parts without serious modifications to the receiver.
I know exactly what you are talking about regarding German Export Laws and I genuinely appreciate the fact that I'm having this discussion with somebody who actually knows something about something, but those laws have been in place for a long time and we were still importing reasonable semi auto versions of HK military firearms.
Gotcha. Yes, I find it hilarious that everyone blames HK. They are a business, if they could just make a semi-auto version of an existing firearm they would. It would require a lot less R&D and expense, people wouldn't bitch about it, and they would probably sell a sh*t ton of them.
The other fact that goes unknown is how much the US actually butt f*cked HK with that ban. The only reason HK deals with us is because we are the biggest civilian gun market. If it weren't that way, they would have gave us the middle finger long ago.
Gotcha. Yes, I find it hilarious that everyone blames HK. They are a business, if they could just make a semi-auto version of an existing firearm they would. It would require a lot less R&D and expense, people wouldn't bitch about it, and they would probably sell a sh*t ton of them.
The other fact that goes unknown is how much the US actually butt f*cked HK with that ban. The only reason HK deals with us is because we are the biggest civilian gun market. If it weren't that way, they would have gave us the middle finger long ago.
Yeah, the 90 series was pretty much made for the US. Every other country could buy their actual select fire guns or couldn't have semis at all. Even worse, after the 89 ban they gave us ban compliant versions like the HK 911, SR9, SR9T, SSR9TC and our government simply kept adding them to the ban list. So HK came up with some "ban proof" firearms like the USC and the SL8 and the US gun buyers declared them to be neutered shit and blamed HK for making "football bat" guns.
Sometimes I'm amazed HK is willing to talk to us at all. If I owned HK, I'd tell the US gun market to give me a call when they have their stupid gun laws sorted out. The only good thing to come from those stupid bans is the HK USP.
Weren't HK and Benelli partners for a while on the M1 Super 90?
Weren't HK and Benelli partners for a while on the M1 Super 90?
Hk was the importer for Benelli in the early days.
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