View Full Version : Flash Hider vs. Muzzle Break----In An Insurrection?
Dr. Bullseye
07-23-20, 21:39
Sure, flash hiders and muzzle breaks do different things. I have a muzzle break and have only really thought about muzzle breaks, until recently. We live in a time where there is a possibility our weapons will be used on somebody or an opposing force. If this were about to happen and you realized it was about to happen, would you replace your muzzle break with a flash hider? Would you go on with the muzzle break? Would you try to find a combination device? I am thinking maybe a flash hider just in reserve.
Flash hiders are great for night time use. Or use a suppressor.
Is this on an AR? I don't understand the appeal of a break unless it's a races gun for an AR. There's so little recoil already. Comps are better if you're going to be suppressed most the time, the comp is easier on the suppressors internals.
I have zero plans on switching out MDs based on the scenario. That seems a little extreme to me. Ammo will play as much of a role, maybe more. Obviously suppressor would be best but I think we're still a ways off from well aimed shots on an armed target resulting in a barrage of gunfire back at you.
Five_Point_Five_Six
07-23-20, 22:48
I'm always a little surprised that people run brakes and comps on 5.56 guns outside of competition. Barrel length and ammo type are a bigger consideration than muzzle device. Few years back I shot a mangy coyote out my back door just after dusk with a MK18 and an A2 birdcage. The fireball that came out of the barrel was about as big as my head.
If you're that worried about flash giving your position away to an opposing force, get a suppressor.
militarymoron
07-24-20, 00:19
Muzzle brakes and comps on daytime fun/comp/plinkers only. Especially if you're going to do any night shooting or training. I had an AAC Brakeout on my SCAR16 until I went out shooting at night. Immediately replaced it with something less 'flashy' when I got home. Definitely a flash hider if you're going to be shooting with NVGs (if you can't own a can).
Judge for yourself from the pics below - how safe would you feel shooting at an opposing force in low light with a brake/comp like this?
https://i.imgur.com/PGjC12s.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Z0fGOnb.jpg
Unless you're some sniper, I wouldn't worry about it. Just focus on what you're trying to kill and if you have enough ammo to do the job. The current A2 flash hider does an ok enough job for most of the work the average shooter would be doing.
For me it was never an issue when you're engaging targets with an M134 mounted on your helicopter's left pylon - lots of noise and lots flash.
vicious_cb
07-24-20, 01:47
Muzzle brakes are stupid, the flashiest thing I have is a warcomp and sometimes I think thats too much.
"TIME OUT! I have to go home and get my flash hider!"
You're gonna fight with what you have on you when the fight starts.
grizzlyblake
07-24-20, 05:43
My two BCMs have their comp because that's how they were configured when in stock at BCM.
Ammo makes a huge difference in how much flash signature is seen. Bulk XM193 is really flashy, way more than with an A2 birdcage. However, good fighting ammo like Speer GDs, Federal TBBC, etc. creates no flash at all. I imagine other comps are similar.
everready73
07-24-20, 08:55
Flash hider is all i have used other than Forward Controls Design 6315. I just dont find a brake practical for my uses, maybe if i did competition.
I do like the 6315 though and will be using those going forward. Same flash supression as A2 with some better compensating. They claim 15-20% reduction which seems about right from using. They offer some Keymo mount options for suppressor use as well
In order of best to worst.
Silencer
Flash hider
Comp/break
Dr. Bullseye
07-24-20, 11:20
Suppressors are illegal in my state--illegal to even possess, even not on your rifle. A flash hider is illegal on the rifle but in an insurrection or other SHTF nobody should care. That is why I mentioned keeping one in reserve. There are probably a few states like mine out there.
Coal Dragger
07-24-20, 15:12
Competitive shooting oriented brakes/comps are pretty much not suitable for a carbine I would be planning to fight with.
Some of the hybrids devices on the other hand are pretty damn good depending on ammo, and barrel length. For example from personal experience the Precision Armament AFAB on a 16” or 18” barrel running M855 is tough for me as the shooter to differentiate flash wise from an A2 on the same barrels. Observing someone else shoot the rifle and there was some flash, but a very dull orange that really doesn’t stand out much.
Same for the Surefire Warcomp, although better at flash suppression than the AFAB while giving up a bit of muzzle control. My eyes could tell no difference with M855 on a 16” or 18” barrel between the Warcomp and an A2.
Using ammo with no flash retardant in the powder and I will grant that flash was more visible, but it was also more visible with the A2 as well. Ammo makes a difference.
I will go out on a limb and predict that short barrels are going to be harder to flash suppress than longer barrels, regardless of muzzle device. I’m sure taking the AFAB, or Warcomp and installing them on a 12.5” or shorter barrel is going to be a shit show if you’re worried about muzzle flash, not to mention how horrendously loud they would be.
The best device at strait killing flash I’ve personally used is the KAC 3 prong flash hider that came standard on my SR-15 16” carbine.
If my sole concern was keeping a low visual signature I’d put it back on the SR-15, but with appropriate ammo and that 16” barrel a hybrid device does well enough while also offering significantly increased muzzle control.
Flash hiders make sense in that scenario, but if it comes to that, we will have a lot bigger problems than muzzle flash.
Linear comps such as the BRT Covert Comp have a lot going for them . Adding 1.5" to your barrel reduces blast noticeably and they have far less flash than a bare muzzle.
Good flash hiders are easy enough to find - the A1 and A2 FH work and are ridiculously cheap compared to anything else. YHM Phantom is not priced too badly and has less flash than an A1/A2. The good 3 prongs (KAC, LMT, AAC) are the most effective, but not the cheapest. My AAC rings, but I cannot hear it when I shoot.
I have 2 BCM Mod 0 hybrid comps, but I am not a fan to be honest. I cannot feel a difference in muzzle movement and they have noticeably more flash and blast than the flash hiders I listed. Admittedly, I could use a sundial as a shot timer; maybe a faster/better shooter would benefit from a hybrid comp?
Andy
I guess I'd need to know more about the nature of this opposing force. If 30+ armed people are coming at you and your position, what difference would which muzzle device make? You should have left the area hours ago.
Suppressors do not make for good flash hiders. In fact, a can on a flash hider mount can be worse than the flash hider itself.
I agree with everyone else on the brakes having no business on fighting guns.
ColtSeavers
07-24-20, 17:02
I guess I'd need to know more about the nature of this opposing force. If 30+ armed people are coming at you and your position, what difference would which muzzle device make? You should have left the area hours ago.
Only two scenarios I can think of really.
1: You keep your mouth shut and go about your business, albeit armed, and pray you never have to use arms while also avoiding conflict as best as you can. Life as normal I suppose.
2: You intend to go out and look for conflict.
In scenario 1, what muzzle device you have doesn't really matter as if you have to use arms, it's a life and death situation anyway. Suddenly stopped in your car with your family by a flash mob that's trying to open the doors and need to gtfo? Suddenly there's a mob marching down your street looking to burn loot and murder? IDGAF what's on the end of my muzzle. I care far more about knowing my shit works and is zeroed. And as far as should have left before hand anyway, one's home is a hill many are willing to die on.
In scenario 2, I don't really think anyone should be commenting on that on a public forum.
I've gone back and forth on this a bit over the years. Comps/brakes help track sights faster and shoot harder, and aren't just a gaming thing. Hiders keep your visibility down and vision up and aren't just a fighting thing. Hybrids do both, some better than others. I'd not dismiss any of them.
Suppressors do not make for good flash hiders. In fact, a can on a flash hider mount can be worse than the flash hider itself.
Very true. However, I wonder how good suppressor flash performance can be.
Very true. However, I wonder how good suppressor flash performance can be.
https://youtu.be/LBUJuSDrBKU
Above is an example of a suppressor with a three prong end cap.
I have a collection of expensive muzzle devices, all of them in a bag now since I had gone to A2. When I ran out of A2s, I made our own (6315).
Having fired from inside a moving vehicle and indoors, even a flash suppressor is very loud. A comp or brake is loud outdoors, I would not shoot a rifle indoors or inside a car with either installed.
Brakes and comps were the rage till folks realize how impractical they can be.
A comp or brake is loud outdoors, I would not shoot a rifle indoors or inside a car with either installed.
I thought it was a great idea to put a SI Japan Type 89 comp on a lightweight upper for my wife.
One trip to the indoor range with that = Doesn’t really want to go shooting again
No MAMS love??
I love my MAMS as a break but that thing is louder and far more flashy than my only other comparable muzzle device which is the BCM Comp.
Also don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that a suppressor isn’t the best flash hider.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My 5ft wife has no problem handling the recoil from a 12 gauge shot gun shooting buck shots. Properly trained, recoil can be managed, it's unpleasant with a 12 gauge.
No MAMS love??
The first thing I did with my MAMS was to put it on my 11.5" SBR and go into an indoor range stall. When I first fired it, I was deafened, stunned, and felt confused as to what I was doing for a moment. Very effective, but it is very punishing firing it indoors. Now I just use it with my CQB mini.
ViniVidivici
07-25-20, 01:11
Normally this is the part where I say "this is why many of us only use A2s anyway".
The OPs purpose is clear, and I'd say sure, why not keep some A2 cages and crush washers (or peel) around. Couldn't hurt.
The first thing I did with my MAMS was to put it on my 11.5" SBR and go into an indoor range stall. When I first fired it, I was deafened, stunned, and felt confused as to what I was doing for a moment.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200725/f925a52de90099fd6cd5579c07d4e2c5.jpg
Guess I’ll sell the one I just got. Was going to try it on KAC 14.5
A question for the SBR/Pistol AR users - what are you running as a MD?
I put a BRT Covert Comp on my 11.3" pistol when I built it and haven't seen a reason to change, but I'm curious.
It's loud and concussive with a linear comp outside, but it's a short 5.56 - that comes with the territory.
Andy
A question for the SBR/Pistol AR users - what are you running as a MD?
I put a BRT Covert Comp on my 11.3" pistol when I built it and haven't seen a reason to change, but I'm curious.
It's loud and concussive with a linear comp outside, but it's a short 5.56 - that comes with the territory.
Andy
I only run A2’s and honestly see no reason for me to run a comp. The recoil of a 5.56 is negligible and I don’t shoot one in competition so a loud, concussive compensator is of no use to me. YMMV.
A question for the SBR/Pistol AR users - what are you running as a MD?
I put a BRT Covert Comp on my 11.3" pistol when I built it and haven't seen a reason to change, but I'm curious.
It's loud and concussive with a linear comp outside, but it's a short 5.56 - that comes with the territory.
Andy
KAC MAMS on the 12.5 and FCD 6315 on the 10.3. The FCD will be replaced with a KAC 3 prong once I buy a can though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Warcomp on the 12.5.
Suppressor only (once out of jail) on the 11.5.
I also ran an A2 on the 11.3 after I took the J-comp off. It was fine.
Just taken off my last remaining comp (a battlecomp) which had been on a rifle for nearly 10 years and gone back to A2.
I just seem to have gotten over the whole fancy muzzle device thang...from what I've read here over the years, I don't think I'm the first to have reached that conclusion
Travelingchild
07-25-20, 08:50
....In scenario 1, what muzzle device you have doesn't really matter as if you have to use arms, it's a life and death situation anyway. Suddenly stopped in your car with your family by a flash mob that's trying to open the doors and need to gtfo? ......
3 Port brake on a SBR , Hell the obnoxious noise and concussion alone would make them leave...Might be deaf as you leave but alive..:cool:
FWIW DOD calls the muzzle device on the M16A2 and M4 a compensator. The bottom of the device is closed in.
Source: page 0005 00-4 in ARMY TM 9-1005-319-10, AIR FORCE TO.11W3-55-41
and NAVY SW 370-BUJ-OPl-010, 1998 edition.
The actual significance of your firing signature, visual and audible, will vary based on operating environment (terrain, time of day, buildings, soil,etc.) and tactics. If you are taking a single shot and unassing (technical term) your position in a wooded environment in stealth manner (or laying perfectly still in a well camoed position), the folks you just shot at will have a hard time spotting the shot, unless they are starring at/in your direction when you fire(other factors will be in play). If it's night time and you are leaning out of a building doing a mag dump you will be probably be easy to spot. We had a hard time spotting "snipers" in Iraq and ASTAN, machine guns where very easy to spot. Things like shot finders (which may or may not work,YMMV) can be a consideration. Realistic day/night training and shoot houses can also help you better visualize/understand.
I'll point out that DoD did some studies on firing signature and there is alot of interest in expanding suppressor issuing to include developing one for machine guns. Also they have developed and fielded suppressors for the M110 and I believe the M-2010 and M-107 sniper rifles. So firing signature and reducing it is a factor on the battle field. You might be able to data mine some of the documents on DTIC.
I was in NY when it was no flashhider/permanent comps only and then when it went no muzzle device (FUAC). So I wound up trying out the battlecomp and some of the other comps and then later hunting down non-threaded barrells. The signatures varied by design (i didn't mind the battle comp on an indoor range with ear pro). I'd recommend you google around as there are pictures and videos that show different firing signature. I've also been stationed in free states so I've got a Warcomp, a BCM comp, A2, etc. Looking at it retrospectively, I'd go with the A2 compensator as it fit my requirements (YMMV) and take the extra $$ and use that for ammo, oil and training. Truth in lending, I don't shoot suppressed or SBR, because It would suck having to sell them every time I PCsed to non-free state
In plain English, I'd look hard at how you are going to fight then look at muzzle devices, ammo etc IOT determine how much sleep you need to lose on your firing signature. Also, understand your mission, resources,environment and enemy and design your TTPS around it.
gunnerblue
07-25-20, 09:38
A question for the SBR/Pistol AR users - what are you running as a MD?
I put a BRT Covert Comp on my 11.3" pistol when I built it and haven't seen a reason to change, but I'm curious.
It's loud and concussive with a linear comp outside, but it's a short 5.56 - that comes with the territory.
Andy
Dead Air or Surefire flash hiders on two 11.5" and a 12.5." I rarely shoot unsuppressed, however
A question for the SBR/Pistol AR users - what are you running as a MD?
I put a BRT Covert Comp on my 11.3" pistol when I built it and haven't seen a reason to change, but I'm curious.
It's loud and concussive with a linear comp outside, but it's a short 5.56 - that comes with the territory.
Andy
All are suppressed except for one. That has a BRT Covert Comp. The Covert Comp is still loud, but all the concussion is pushed down range.
I've had the honor and privilege to shoot with Ken Hackathorn on a private range. I had a 10.5 inch AR pistol with a Battlecomp. On a 20 or 16 inch barrel, the BC didn't have much more side blast than the A2 did. On 10.5 inch barrel, it was a firebreathing beast! After a few shots out of my AR pistol, Ken took me aside and politely said "Today, you're a guest on my range and welcome to shoot. But, if you were in a class I was instructing, I'd have you pull that comp and install a flash hider before continuing."
The next time I got the opportunity to shoot with Mr. Hackathorn, I made certain to use a suppressor on my shorty.
I only run A2’s and honestly see no reason for me to run a comp. The recoil of a 5.56 is negligible and I don’t shoot one in competition so a loud, concussive compensator is of no use to me. YMMV.
To clarify, the Covert Comp is a linear, not a brake-like, compensator. I'm trying to push the concussion downrange.
Andy
A closed bottom muzzle device has the added benefit of reducing dust signature. The concussion at the muzzle will still kick up dust, it's significantly less than with a comp or brake.
The closed bottom does have some effect on muzzle movement. For laughs, this is what happens when the 12 o'clock port is rotated to 3 o'clock on a 6315. On an A2 the effect is less but still present.
https://youtu.be/jz5M_0ORG3s
Another video at Big Sandy a decade ago. The comp was loose on this HK51 and started to rotate, the muzzle started moving in the opposite direction of the 12 o'clock port.
https://youtu.be/Hxj3HVm-Bjg
nightchief
07-25-20, 10:55
A question for the SBR/Pistol AR users - what are you running as a MD?
I put a BRT Covert Comp on my 11.3" pistol when I built it and haven't seen a reason to change, but I'm curious.
It's loud and concussive with a linear comp outside, but it's a short 5.56 - that comes with the territory.
Andy
Smith Vortex if I'm not planning to suppress it. Comps on a short barreled gun unsuppressed are just no bueno IMO.
Coal Dragger
07-25-20, 12:03
Stop being so obsessed with saving your hearing..... we both know you ignore people talking to you in person or on the radio at work anyway.
Guess I’ll sell the one I just got. Was going to try it on KAC 14.5
I would use it if you all ready have it. It is a great for its intended purpose. Just don't be me and fire it in an enclosed box.
Only thing I hate worse than a gun oil thread is a nerdy ass muzzle brake thread. And it’s BRAKE
ViniVidivici
07-25-20, 16:58
Stop being so obsessed with saving your hearing..... we both know you ignore people talking to you in person or on the radio at work anyway.
Get outta my head.
Dr. Bullseye
07-25-20, 22:20
Only thing I hate worse than a gun oil thread is a nerdy ass muzzle brake thread. And it’s BRAKE
Yeah, I have noticed that here. There is something for everyone to hate and nobody is shy about participating in threads they hate.
ColtSeavers
07-25-20, 22:38
Only thing I hate worse than a gun oil thread is a nerdy ass muzzle brake thread. And it’s BRAKE
By gun oil, you mean crisco vegetable oil, right? :p
ColtSeavers
07-25-20, 23:06
Yeah, I have noticed that here. There is something for everyone to hate and nobody is shy about participating in threads they hate.
Get some thicker skin.
Coal Dragger
07-26-20, 00:48
By gun oil, you mean crisco vegetable oil, right? :p
Lubes guns and helps fry up the critters you kill with the guns into delicious meals!
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