View Full Version : Gauges
Recently found a Youtube channel called School of the American Rifle. He's got some pretty specific gauges for measuring everything on the gun.
One ideo was on a BCG. He had gauges for bolt tail NO GO and Field. Cam pin hole on the bolt. Bolt face etc, pretty cool stuff.
I've asked around and have reached out to get a better idea of what some of these gauges are. Understandably he needs to protect his intellectual property, which I completely get.
Going through TM 9-1005-319-23&P, I can get NSNs all day long but no real places to actually buy a few of these tools.
The ones I'm interested in right now would be
5220-01-043-9473 Gage, Plug, Taper Cylindrical
5220-01-075-5004 Gage, Plug, Plain Cylindrical
He used one similar to 5220-01-043-9473 Gage, Plug, Taper Cylindrical to find an egged out cam pin hole in a bolt. Just think it would be nice to have something like that on hand
to check things after a high round count, multi day class or possibly buying a used gun ? I do see Vermont Gauge offers the handles like in his videos, just not sure where to get
the actual gauge that would go in that handle. Haven't been in machine shop class since 1989 and am trying to piece together a better understanding. I've got no time to start
my own business, just want a few specific tools for piece of mind. Any ideas on where to source some of these tools or ones similar ?
The channel owner is a member here. As soon as he posts, the mouth breathers will start in with the "well actuallys". The last time, he remembered more pressing business elsewhere, our loss.
Andy
The channel owner is a member here. As soon as he posts, the mouth breathers will start in with the "well actuallys". The last time, he remembered more pressing business elsewhere, our loss.
Andy
Yeah just read through that mess. Not sure what that was about... I told him wouldn't bug him any more about it so am asking in other places along with just doing simple research with NSNs and cross referencing tools.
Something might be doable but would probably have to be a custom job.
I saw some of the gauges on the SOCOM barrel video. Pretty impressive tools, but honestly.. just my opinion... in 28 years on the AR platform, I've never found it necessary to use any of my gauges unless I'm checking out some garbage gun... maybe an occasional firing pin protrusion check if I'm getting pierced primers.
No offense if you want to get them, but it strikes me that they're more ideal for a manufacturer to have than even us high AR use shooters.
I saw some of the gauges on the SOCOM barrel video. Pretty impressive tools, but honestly.. just my opinion... in 28 years on the AR platform, I've never found it necessary to use any of my gauges unless I'm checking out some garbage gun... maybe an occasional firing pin protrusion check if I'm getting pierced primers.
No offense if you want to get them, but it strikes me that they're more ideal for a manufacturer to have than even us high AR use shooters.
Yup.
I do like the guys videos but he wastes a lot of time checking stuff that should never need to be checked if the parts were not bottom of the barrel junk to begin with.
Yup.
I do like the guys videos but he wastes a lot of time checking stuff that should never need to be checked if the parts were not bottom of the barrel junk to begin with.
Those gauges would be ideal for QC on parts ordered/purchased for assembly... like where you might have to reject a batch, etc. Cool stuff for sure, but really, IMO a waste of time for 99% of us end users.
Those gauges would be ideal for QC on parts ordered/purchased for assembly... like where you might have to reject a batch, etc. Cool stuff for sure, but really, IMO a waste of time for 99% of us end users.
It would fit my OCD profile, so I'm just looking into them.
I do like the guys videos but he wastes a lot of time checking stuff that should never need to be checked if the parts were not bottom of the barrel junk to begin with.
I like his videos too, and I understand what you're saying. But the thing is, there really is no other way to definitively say something is good or bad, other than by measuring it. Also, one thing I like about his analyses is that nothing is sacred. He will scrutinize and criticize even the most well regarded brands. That's the way it should be.
He obviously sees a very wide range of parts quality in what he examines, so of course he sees a lot of junk. I assume that wide range of experience and perspective is also why people go to him.
Compare what he sees to what a military or law enforcement armorer or gunsmith sees. They see a very narrow slice of what is out there. I'm sure most are good at what they do. But it's a very limited perspective in my opinion.
Joe Mamma
Okay, school me on understanding the pin gauges thing from McMaster.
Found similar items with a handle but it's saying the No Go side is minus ?
Do they mean minus material hence larger diameter ?
Then there's the figuring out the NOT GO modified gauge used to find egged out holes... That's the custom part. I did see a post from him on Instagram offering to sell the tools but that was over a year ago
and do not see that option on his site. I'd rather go that route honestly but can't keep pestering the man. Just tend to dive deep into anything I get interested in and would find some of these valuable
for buying used guns or checking defensive weapons after heavy use.
https://www.mcmaster.com/pin-gauges/plug-gauges-with-handle/
63220
Recently found a Youtube channel called School of the American Rifle. He's got some pretty specific gauges for measuring everything on the gun.
One ideo was on a BCG. He had gauges for bolt tail NO GO and Field. Cam pin hole on the bolt. Bolt face etc, pretty cool stuff.
I've asked around and have reached out to get a better idea of what some of these gauges are. Understandably he needs to protect his intellectual property, which I completely get.
Going through TM 9-1005-319-23&P, I can get NSNs all day long but no real places to actually buy a few of these tools.
The ones I'm interested in right now would be
5220-01-043-9473 Gage, Plug, Taper Cylindrical
5220-01-075-5004 Gage, Plug, Plain Cylindrical
He used one similar to 5220-01-043-9473 Gage, Plug, Taper Cylindrical to find an egged out cam pin hole in a bolt. Just think it would be nice to have something like that on hand
to check things after a high round count, multi day class or possibly buying a used gun ? I do see Vermont Gauge offers the handles like in his videos, just not sure where to get
the actual gauge that would go in that handle.
You can use these guys, or someone else, to request a quote:
http://www.positexinc.com/inspection-gages-and-precision-layout-tools-fsc-5220/page/195
You can use these guys, or someone else, to request a quote:
http://www.positexinc.com/inspection-gages-and-precision-layout-tools-fsc-5220/page/195
I actually did request a quote from a company today lol. Thank you for the link.
I like his videos too, and I understand what you're saying. But the thing is, there really is no other way to definitively say something is good or bad, other than by measuring it.
Shooting the firearm will tell you if something is not right.
Considering tolerances of parts - Do these particular parts work properly together?
Okay, school me on understanding the pin gauges thing from McMaster.
Found similar items with a handle but it's saying the No Go side is minus ?
Do they mean minus material hence larger diameter ?
Then there's the figuring out the NOT GO modified gauge used to find egged out holes... That's the custom part. I did see a post from him on Instagram offering to sell the tools but that was over a year ago
https://www.mcmaster.com/pin-gauges/plug-gauges-with-handle/
63220
From what you wrote, I'm not sure if you are asking how to use the catalog to order.
Class X gives you the +/- needed.
Determine your size. As an example, lets say the trigger/hammer pin hole size is .154” and the tolerances are +/- 0.001”. That gives you .153 as go and .156 as no-go (.156 because .155 would be go)
On the link you provided in the 'Class X' group click on the third line down 0.0751" to 0.1800" that will bring you to the order page. Use the boxes in the 'product detail' block to select the sizes, select quantity and add to cart - you just spent $41.42.
The hardest thing will be actually coming up with good go/no-go numbers.
The go no go I used is from this thread: Trigger/hammer holes are .154” the tolerances are +/- 0.001”.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?9830-How-to-SBR-Your-Lower-by-Scottryan
In this thread Iraqgunz (RIP) said: MILSPEC Colt holes are .155, not .156 and not .154. The reject for them is .163.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?123640-Trigger-and-hammer-pin-holes-questions-pics
So getting good data is important.
JMO
ETA: No handles, but these have worked for me:
https://www.amazon.com/HFS-0-061-0-250-CLASS-PLASTIC-STORAGE/dp/B00UCQO4HM?ref_=Oct_s9_apbd_orecs_hd_bw_bRB2gd&pf_rd_r=XYYT2HM3P2M1F5ECKY64&pf_rd_p=b805b314-e203-568f-9f0c-3fe818ae6c52&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-10&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=401593011
Here's a handle:
https://www.amazon.com/Accusize-0-2510-0-5005-Double-Handle-3350-0102/dp/B01AOES148/ref=lp_401593011_1_13?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1595644547&sr=1-13&th=1
In reference to gauges only being useful due to crap parts...
I find the SOTAR videos useful, because they do not only show only cheap manufacturers being afield of proper specs.
Tedfs,
My apologies if you have tried to contact me and haven't received a response. I get overwhelmed with messages and emails and it takes me a while to get around to responding.
I usually avoid commenting on Youtube because people don't read the replies. If that's where you tried to reach me, I do apologise.
As far as Gauges go, many of the ones I use are just Pin Gauges mounted to a handle. The TDP can give you a great deal of information to determine what pin gauges to use.
I do make my own taper pin/plug gauges. Some are copies of the military examples. The Military Gauges can be unobtainable/hard to find.
The non Military Gauges are ones I have fabricated from problem parts and extensive troubleshooting.
Many people will claim gauging is pointless if you buy quality parts. I have seen otherwise. Approximately 11k AR's have crossed my bench so people can take it or leave it.
People assume my gauging has no basis in actual repairs and troubleshooting, but they are mistaken. Everything I check has a purpose or I wouldnt be checking.
I no longer make gauges for the public because they are extremely time consuming to make, and in all honesty I lose money making them. I do make them for students on a limited basis, but it's very limited.
Thank you for following my work. I'll do my best to respond here. I respect M4C and it's mission.
Thank you for the kind words gentleman. I did have some probems with a few people here, but I won't let them run me off.
Tedfs,
My apologies if you have tried to contact me and haven't received a response. I get overwhelmed with messages and emails and it takes me a while to get around to responding.
I usually avoid commenting on Youtube because people don't read the replies. If that's where you tried to reach me, I do apologise.
As far as Gauges go, many of the ones I use are just Pin Gauges mounted to a handle. The TDP can give you a great deal of information to determine what pin gauges to use.
I do make my own taper pin/plug gauges. Some are copies of the military examples. The Military Gauges can be unobtainable/hard to find.
The non Military Gauges are ones I have fabricated from problem parts and extensive troubleshooting.
Many people will claim gauging is pointless if you buy quality parts. I have seen otherwise. Approximately 11k AR's have crossed my bench so people can take it or leave it.
People assume my gauging has no basis in actual repairs and troubleshooting, but they are mistaken. Everything I check has a purpose or I wouldnt be checking.
I no longer make gauges for the public because they are extremely time consuming to make, and in all honesty I lose money making them. I do make them for students on a limited basis, but it's very limited.
Thank you for following my work. I'll do my best to respond here. I respect M4C and it's mission.
I did contact you via email with talk of an NDA but promised not to bother you anymore if it was a problem on your end. You replied with the time you had, which I appreciate.
275 hours at work in the last three weeks, being busy is understandable. Not trying to reinvent the wheel, just want to invest in some quality tools that will tell me if my kit is in order.
Going Alice, rabbit hole deep is just something that I do with things that spark a passion.
I'd be more than willing to buy the specs from you, just promised in my last email to not bother you anymore about it if there was an issue.
Hence my post here to not take up your time via email.
More just thinking out loud to try and understand what's going on. The NOT GO modified gauges are of particular interest to me, the normal round gauges are a dime a dozen
on any decent site. I can PM here or email but would rather not break my promise.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Trying not to bother you with the journey. Taking a class from you would be ideal but getting the time off to actually travel out of state, during the current issues at hand,
is out of the question.
Tedfs3...
...
In this thread Iraqgunz (RIP) said: MILSPEC Colt holes are .155, not .156 and not .154. The reject for them is .163.
...
Wait, what ? I haven't been here in a very long time. That RIP part just ruined my week. Had no idea.
end transmission...
Shooting the firearm will tell you if something is not right.
Actually, it won't. You can have a gun with out of spec parts that functions fine. Let's say it's a competition gun that has been modified considerably, and functions fine. Then, put a new part in, and it stops working. Is the new part out of spec or is it something else, or a combination of multiple out of spec parts. You wouldn't know without comparing various parts to some specification.
Joe Mamma
Well one quote came back for one of the special NOT GO gauges, a few bucks shy of $900. So that's a No Go, pun intended.
Are there specs for the NOT Go gauges somewhere or is that proprietary ? Could possibly have some regular pin gauges modified if the specs are out there. I don't think Chad does that anymore due to workload.
I did save a boatload of measurement pics from wbparts:
https://www.wbparts.com/rfq/5220-01-043-9473.html
Still have to figure out the bolt NOT GO, haven't seen one of those so they might be a custom.
Thank you everyone for the help and links. Just trying to keep my brain working by learning something new besides work
Forster makes gauges for headspace, but you'll have to remove the ejector and extractor. IMHO, worth the squeeze if you are interested.
hotrodder636
07-29-20, 00:07
Glad to hear you are sticking around.
Thank you for the kind words gentleman. I did have some probems with a few people here, but I won't let them run me off.
Chad is a good friend and a great guy. As a manufacturer, his attention to detail is what we strife for, and we have benefited from his input to make improvements. As a perpetual student, I've learned quite a few things from Chad.
Folks can be quick to make judgements about SOTAR, would that if they approached gauging and Chad's videos with an open mind, I think they would learn something they never knew before.
Chad is a good friend and a great guy. As a manufacturer, his attention to detail is what we strife for, and we have benefited from his input to make improvements. As a perpetual student, I've learned quite a few things from Chad.
Folks can be quick to make judgements about SOTAR, would that if they approached gauging and Chad's videos with an open mind, I think they would learn something they never knew before.
I agree. Wish there was a way for me to make one of his classes. Worth the price of admission from what I've seen in his videos.
Building off of what 26 Inf posted, looks like it will be possible to get the GO/NO GO gauges built with handles at McMaster-Carr. Just need to come up with some good specs.
Using what he posted:
lets say the trigger/hammer pin hole size is .154” and the tolerances are +/- 0.001”. That gives you .153 as go and .156 as no-go (.156 because .155 would be go)
Would you just use the tolerance specs to build each GO/NO GO ? Obviously the taper pin gauges are expensive but if there were specs for those somewhere, it would be possible to get some made that were more affordable.
You can build several Gauges by using the proper go and no go dimensions. The handle just makes them more "handy".
Unfortunately some of the no go dimensions are not looking for round holes and require the pins to be modified so they can detect an out of round hole. That's the pain in the rear part of the gauges I make.
I am working with a very large company to bring all my gauges to the commercial market, but I have no ETA.
titsonritz
08-11-20, 12:48
Thank you for the kind words gentleman. I did have some probems with a few people here, but I won't let them run me off.
Glad to hear you are sticking around. I find your contributions to this forum worthwhile.
Glad to hear you are sticking around. I find your contributions to this forum worthwhile.
I second that.
Glad to hear you are sticking around.
Glad to hear you are sticking around. I find your contributions to this forum worthwhile.
I second that.
I'll... fourth it.
You can build several Gauges by using the proper go and no go dimensions. The handle just makes them more "handy".
Unfortunately some of the no go dimensions are not looking for round holes and require the pins to be modified so they can detect an out of round hole. That's the pain in the rear part of the gauges I make.
I am working with a very large company to bring all my gauges to the commercial market, but I have no ETA.
This is great news and I look forward to purchasing some of those hard to get ones whenever they come to market. Trying to plan a possible trip next year to come out and take a class.
Not sure how it will work out but I am looking into hotels and such this weekend. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge so freely.
PleasE start with the headspace gauges with milled bases! Very useful
PleasE start with the headspace gauges with milled bases! Very useful
This would be great. I finished a build last night, disassembled the bolt, checked headspace, and reassembled... It would probably be worth the price of admission to not have to disassemble the bolt.
This would be great. I finished a build last night, disassembled the bolt, checked headspace, and reassembled... It would probably be worth the price of admission to not have to disassemble the bolt.
Yeah, I’ve been lookin for something like this for a while.
So I'm trying to understand the Bolt Tail No Go. Seems to me after some reading and watching it would be an undersized gauge ? No clue what the Field gauge would be.
hotrodder636
08-15-20, 21:55
Great to read that last part!
You can build several Gauges by using the proper go and no go dimensions. The handle just makes them more "handy".
Unfortunately some of the no go dimensions are not looking for round holes and require the pins to be modified so they can detect an out of round hole. That's the pain in the rear part of the gauges I make.
I am working with a very large company to bring all my gauges to the commercial market, but I have no ETA.
Tedfs,
My apologies if you have tried to contact me and haven't received a response. I get overwhelmed with messages and emails and it takes me a while to get around to responding.
I usually avoid commenting on Youtube because people don't read the replies. If that's where you tried to reach me, I do apologise.
As far as Gauges go, many of the ones I use are just Pin Gauges mounted to a handle. The TDP can give you a great deal of information to determine what pin gauges to use.
I do make my own taper pin/plug gauges. Some are copies of the military examples. The Military Gauges can be unobtainable/hard to find.
The non Military Gauges are ones I have fabricated from problem parts and extensive troubleshooting.
Many people will claim gauging is pointless if you buy quality parts. I have seen otherwise. Approximately 11k AR's have crossed my bench so people can take it or leave it.
People assume my gauging has no basis in actual repairs and troubleshooting, but they are mistaken. Everything I check has a purpose or I wouldnt be checking.
I no longer make gauges for the public because they are extremely time consuming to make, and in all honesty I lose money making them. I do make them for students on a limited basis, but it's very limited.
Thank you for following my work. I'll do my best to respond here. I respect M4C and it's mission.
I found your YouTube channel via suggested videos and I just want to thank you for putting out content. I've learned a bunch from watching your videos and just want to say thank you. I find your data driven approach to be very refreshing; there is a lot of root cause analysis going on which again is really great compared to the "start swapping parts until it works" approach that seems to be so prevalent. Thanks !
I just would like to add my two sense. I think gauging is very import, and that what SOTAR has shown the world is neat and informative. A lot of people foolishy believe that Ar15s are like legos. I've seen products from high end companies and unknown companies have serious issues from the beginning. With issues like out of spec gas ports,very out of spec bolt carries, extremely tight mag wells and in all honestly these parts "worked" but not effectly.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.