View Full Version : Concealed Carry and Off-Duty Pistol, South Hill, Virginia, February 21 & 22, 2009
David Pennington
11-28-08, 12:04
Deleted
Is is wrong to take the same class again? Stupid question. I am in as well.
:D
Dave you can mark two more slots down.
My father and I will be there, and he'll be up to speed by then.
Dave, Sam Edwards (aka Mr. MachineGun) is also down for this as well.
GLOCKMASTER
11-28-08, 15:34
Email sent and I'm in.
Awesome class, I would not miss it for the world.
John_Wayne777
11-28-08, 18:12
Sign me up as well. Message sent to Mr. Pennington.
Looks like I'm shopping for a BUG at the show tomorrow. :D
Heavy Metal
11-28-08, 19:11
Email sent.
David Pennington
11-28-08, 20:02
The class is full plus some. I've replied to the first 10 E-mails and they are confirmed.
I am now going to try to sort out who replied on this thread vs via E-mail vs both and look at a standby list or second class.
Everyone standby for an E-mail.
That filled up quick.
David teaches a great class and covers a ton of subjects. Lots of shooting, bring plenty of ammo.
30 cal slut
12-02-08, 08:59
Ah, Crap, late to the thread as usual.
Would definitely be interested in a second class.
Dave - Count me in!
Brian
I'm interested in attending as well.
Please let me know if/when another class is scheduled.
Thanks, Mark.
Matt Edwards
01-24-09, 20:55
I, too, would be interested. Oh, and seeing you again might be OK as well.
No, I don't know what the little face means. I hit it by accident and don't know how to get rid of it.
John_Wayne777
02-05-09, 13:42
The rest of my tuition is in the mail.
Doh! Did I miss the reminder?
GLOCKMASTER
02-05-09, 16:18
The rest of my tuition is in the mail.
Mine is going out tomorrow. I'm really looking forward to this class.:)
John_Wayne777
02-19-09, 17:03
Well, the class happens this weekend. I'm really looking forward to it.
I'm also sick as a dog with the worst sinus infection I've ever had, and apparently a combination of some sort of bug that's been running around my area for the last month.
I'm planning to arrive in South Hill in mid to late afternoon tomorrow.
It's kind of a custom for the South Hill classes for M4Carbine.net members to get together for a little fellowship the night before class starts. I'm up for giving it a shot if I'm not dying. If anyone is interested, shoot me a PM...or just respond in the open here.
That works too.
I should be heading down from NOVA mid-to-late afternoon so I can hit the beginning of the NOVA rush hour and not miss any of the Richmond rush hour either - yay...
At that point I might be up for several rounds of fellowship.
Right now I am experiencing the finger ache of preloading a butt load of mags.
Heavy Metal
02-20-09, 10:07
Crabapplebees at 7:00PM?
Have fun, guys. This is an outstanding class.
John_Wayne777
02-20-09, 11:05
Crabapplebees at 7:00PM?
That's about what I'm thinking. Some folks have PMed me their cell numbers. I'm about to walk out the door now. I'll start making some calls after I'm settled in.
GLOCKMASTER
02-20-09, 17:40
Since I only live about 50 minutes away I will be commuting each day.
Looking forward to class tomorrow and having dinner with everyone tomorrow night.
I don't have much to offer in the way of an AAR that's very different from what I said about the first class. Excellent instruction, the subject matter is so relevant to what many of us do on an everyday basis, good shooters in the class.
The falling plate steel was an excellent training aid/reactive target for the barricade scenario.
Buzz had a squib round of Winchester White Box that lodged a bullet in the barrel. Good thing people recognized the pop for what it was and stopping Buzz from completing the "bang" on his tap-rack-bang. Another vote for electronic hearing protection and good SA.
I didn't know I could get sunburn (windburn?) when it's 40 degrees out. Dummy. How many times do I have to learn the lesson to bring sunblock to a class?
Total round count was a bit down from the first class. I'd put it around 850-900 this time around. I took a couple of drills off, so I'm sure some guys shot more than I did.
I'm more convinced than ever that I need to find some Ranger 9mm. Most of the 9mm defensive loads look pretty similar at night. The Ranger is noticeably different. It's the only round I'm aware of that has flash suppressant in the powder.
s_z, actually, Buzz's squib was Remington UMC green box.
What it looked like to me....and this is unscientific, just knee jerk observation...the round had a wee bit of powder in, but not a full charge. The powder ignited, but because it wasn't a full charge, the case ruptured at the vent that the M&P has in the chamber. The bullet was lodged in the barrel about....1" down the pipe.
Great catch by DP when that happened.
Otherwise, exactly what s_z said.....outstanding class, absolutely relevant for civvie and LEO concealed carry.
We had some very strong shooters in the class, we had some guys who can benefit from more trigger time (who doesn't?), but ALL of the shooters were safe and learned a ton.
I've got some pics I'll upload and post when I get the chance.
Wish I could've made it. Hopefully next year.
Heavy Metal
02-23-09, 14:42
Buzz owes DP dinner for that catch.
Buzz had an Angel on his shoulder yesterday for sure. It was divine providence that it was the first round he tried to fire and the one closest to where everyone else was. And that most of us all had our eyes on him.
I shudder to think if it had happend at the double barrels mid-magazine. There was just enough room to chamber a fresh round.
Anyway, it was an outstanding, chock-full class that has provided me much new info and some new techniques to further hone my skills.
It was good seeing everyone again. Thanks again to DP for an truly outstanding class.
Yes, I have bought my lottery ticket!
And I do owe Dave, and Jeff, who I think hollered as well (and whacked that bullet out of the barrel), a big dinner. Although Dave opted for the big dessert!
I am just so happy that I DON'T get to share what that (almost) follow-up shot was like!
Great course, great instruction and interaction with others, and a super bunch of guys!
Came away with another long list of stuff to learn . . . trigger control, always . . . weak hand shooting . . . shooting on the move . . . etc. At least the target looked more like a full choke pattern than an improved cylinder. Baby steps . . .
And let's not even get into Machine Rest Freuler's steel plate shooting on the walk back - - - what was it, 125 yards?? Twice. Geez . . .
I, too, did not realize it was possible to get a sunburn in February in Virginia - but I definitely have M-Frame "raccoon eyes."
Round count (for me) was about 850 rounds. I can definitely benefit from some quality time dry firing to get my trigger control consistent, as my open choke patterns showed - though they narrowed to a Flite Control wad-sized group by the second day.
This was the most practical "every day" class I have taken, or even heard of for that matter. I used the same belt, holster, mag pouch, etc. that I use every day. No tacticool rigs here. DP goes through the gamut of skills and techniques progressively, starting with basic bullseye shooting and progressing all the way through clearing malfunctions one-handed (weak and strong) and shooting on the move. A "roundtable" type discussion was held as well regarding holster, magazine pouch, belt, and clothing selection. Very good information from both DP and other folks in the class chiming in.
I had the distinctly humbling honor of shooting on the line next to Jeff "I can ping the steel plate with a G19 at 125 yards one handed with my eyes closed" Freuler. Being surrounded by very good shooters sets a high bar and improves your performance. I was noticeably better on day 2.
The night shoot was illuminating (pun intended). Each of us fired 5 rounds of duty/carry ammo as a demo to see the flash signature. Gold dots were well represented and most produced perhaps a baseball-sized, subdued orange flash. I fired Winchester Ranger 127 gr. +P+ and, surprisingly (to me), several people commented that it had a very small flash compared to the others. I expected a Hiroshima-like muzzle blast from that load, but it was apparently just the opposite. None of the loads seemed really blindingly bright - I don't think any of them would cause significant issues in "real life."
Thanks to all, and especially DP, for an excellent and practical class.
Outstanding course!
Several made comments that this course had the most practical application of all the ones we have taken(except in the event Zombies invade)
A big take from this class was one handed marksmanship and manipulation(strong and weak hand) Talk about a humbling experience doing malfunction drills! Nothing you look forward to doing, and especially nothing you tend to practice on your own, but here you got it.
On another note - exercising draw techniques from layers of clothing(because it did get that cold) This one will make anything done more mild weather seem easy.
On another note - exercising draw techniques from layers of clothing(because it did get that cold) This one will make anything done more mild weather seem easy.
I can tell you that it makes life interesting to have two layers on, one closed front and one open front.
I had to sweep my jacket out of the way, then hook the soft shell to get access to the holster. I practiced it because I find myself dressing like that every now and then and wow is it not fun to draw from.
After doing that, going back to all open front sweeps did seem ridiculously easy.
I can tell you that it makes life interesting to have two layers on, one closed front and one open front.
I didn't think anyone even attempted this until I saw a couple folks doing it at the class. I've always tried to "dress around the gun" and put only one layer on top of it. I think I'll stick with that, but certainly this class proved that it's possible to do 2 layers and still function reasonably well.
GLOCKMASTER
02-24-09, 19:07
I thoroughly enjoyed the class and shooting with the others from M4C.
David has developed an outstanding class for people who carry concealed on a daily basis. He thoroughly covers topics that need to be covered for concealed carry beyond just having the permit. This class also helps lay a minimum foundation that every person who carries a pistol concealed should have prior to actually carrying a concealed pistol. As already mentioned above by a couple of people, this class is a very practical class for everyday people and law enforcement officers who carry off duty or in plain clothes. One of the best parts of the class was the discussion on the different methods of concealed carry. It was nice to hear what worked for some and not for others as carrying concealed is a very personal thing.
It was also nice to see a father and son out enjoying a shooting class together. Templar and his dad are good company.
Paul H. and Tom C. can be a hoot as well.:p
I enjoyed meeting folks from here at M4C. Even though he is an attorney, it was also nice visiting with and shooting with DBrowne again. :p
David is a very nice guy and an outstanding instructor. I hope to see him again in the future.
Since it's only 58 miles from the house, I will be hitting more classes at South Hill in the future.:)
Enjoy the pictures!!!!!
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I think I need to find another picture hosting site. The pictures are actually better than what is showing.
GLOCKMASTER
02-24-09, 19:07
This was the remains of the squib load. I'm glad David was on his toes this could have been ugly.
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John_Wayne777
02-24-09, 19:29
JFreuler managed to post the one picture where it actually looks like I know what I'm doing.
Thank you, sir.
Here are some more pics......
My dad doing some barricade work. I want to thank Dave and everyone for making him feel comfortable, this was his second class.
Not bad for a 68 year old veteran. :cool:
He's using his shiny new Glock 19 with standard night sights with a Kramer #3 and Kramer double mag pouch.
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JFreuler doing storng side only malfunction clearance drill.
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dbrowne1 doing the same drill.
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The Usual Suspects......M4Fun, J_W777, Dinger, Subzero.....
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I'm really, really, really bummed I missed this class :(
But I'm glad I'm down here in the sunshine state because it looked like it was cold there!
Hopefully DP will run this class again soon.
dbrowne1 doing weak side only malfunction clearance. Probably the most suck drill yet devised. :o
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J_W777 and Subzero, same drill. Didn't help that it was raining and a bloody mess, but they cowboy'd up and made it happen.
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John_Wayne777
02-24-09, 19:56
I guess we should post about the equipment used....
Most of the shooters were using Glocks, and a fair number were carrying in Raven Concealment gear. I found the RCS gear to be extremely comfortable and easy to use. This was the first time I've used it in a class and it performed admirably.
I shot my Glock 17 for a big chunk of TD1...but this time without the Glocktail. Everyone at the course got a good look at the very real phenomenon of Glock slide bite. It's pretty bad when the instructor says "Dude, your gun is all bloody and I don't want to touch it...."
I spent a lot of time fighting with the extended slide lock on the Glock. I had a couple of issues with it in the Vickers Advanced pistol/carbine class in July, but it was heinous this weekend. I lost count of how many times I prematurely locked the slide to the rear. It was pretty damned annoying. On the plus side, my muscle memory for a reload when the slide locks seemed to be in great shape. I performed quite a few reloads from concealment and they all went very well. Of course, that's a skill I practice regularly.
The extended slide stops on my Glocks have got to go.
My M&P (I shot most of the course with it) experienced a FTX on TD1 that led to a double-feed situation. I'm not sure why it happened, but aside from that hiccup it didn't have any issues. That's the first real malfunction I've experienced with that handgun. WWB has given me lots of problems in the past, so I'm not comfortable blaming the weapon.
The malfunction clearing portion of the course left my M&P covered in mud. Combined with the crud from a lot of WWB and the lack of cleaning from the VCDL range day a couple of weeks ago and it's quite dirty at the moment. I fired more rounds than the bare minimum...partially because I was sort of out of it thanks to all the disease, and partially because I just wanted to get some awesome split times. During my run on the steel targets I sort of forgot the point of the drill and just went wookie on the steel. Shooting steel is fun, but it's a little bit like dating a midget.
A number of us had Warren sights on our handguns...and they proved useful during malfunction clearance. I've heard Warrens dinged by some folks because of their sharp edges, but when you're doing a one handed malfunction clear in the mud you sort of appreciate those sharp edges.
Use of the dummy rounds for malfunction clearance drills was a good idea. It kept what could have been a problematic section of instruction safe.
Dinger doing a weak hand draw.
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Walk back drill.
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I just wanted to get some awesome split times. During my run on the steel targets I sort of forgot the point of the drill and just went wookie on the steel. Shooting steel is fun, but it's a little bit like dating a midget.
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Use of the dummy rounds for malfunction clearance drills was a good idea. It kept what could have been a problematic section of instruction safe.
Very true.
GLOCKMASTER
02-24-09, 20:24
During the class I ran my G19 with Warren Tactical Night Sights. I used a Kramer Vertical Scabbard and a Wilderness Tactical Five Stitch Belt. For a magazine carrier I used the Comp-Tac mag carriers. The only difference in my off duty carry setup is that I use a leather belt designed by the Belt Man (http://www.thebeltman.net/).
I really like the Warren Sights. I have the two dot orange rear sight with the green front and I find this works very well for me.
For mags I used a combination of G19 and G17 mags. I have read on another site that you shouldn't use G17 mags with a G19 because you can over insert the G17 mag. I have yet to experience this problem. After talking with DP, I'm considering getting some +2 extensions for the G19 mags. He had some and they seem to be GTG.
This is the first class I have had the opportunity to use my G19. I really enjoyed wringing it out a little. I have been very pleased with the G19 as my carry pistol. For such a cheap pistol it's amazing how accurate and reliable it can be.
More walk back drill and the "car tire" drill.
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Heavy Metal
02-24-09, 20:33
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/DP%20Concealed%20Class%2021-22%20Feb%2009/P1010696.jpg
See Larry! I wore the Frikkin Glasses!!!!
Jay Cunningham
02-24-09, 20:39
My M&P (I shot most of the course with it) experienced a FTX on TD1 that led to a double-feed situation.
http://talentedapps.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/kijinnmaru-inconceivable.jpg
The CURSED ONE HAND RIP DRILL!!!!! Along with South Hill mud, it makes for an interesting sight picture... :D Sorry I had to miss this one.
http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/DSC_1413-1.jpg
John_Wayne777
02-24-09, 21:20
Something else worthy of note...our walkback drills went back to 125 yards.
Handguns with open sights, and we had multiple shooters still standing at 100 yards.
John_Wayne777
02-24-09, 21:31
http://talentedapps.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/kijinnmaru-inconceivable.jpg
Another thing...the zero on my sights is messed up. You would figure at 100 yards I would have to aim at the top of the 12"x12" plate to hit it...but I was actually aiming UNDER the thing when I broke the shot. On the couple of shots I missed during the walkbacks I don't think any of them was low...I think I either shot over the target or to the right.
My weapon was shooting a bit to the right throughout the course. With the duty ammo (the first 30 or so rounds of the course were bullseye at various ranges using duty ammo) it seemed to be close as far as elevation....but at those longer distances I basically had to have a 6:00 hold to hit the steel with the FMJ ammo.
The only explanation I can come up with is that I was heeling the gun as I broke the shot.
The FTX bothers me quite a bit. At the time I just did a rip drill (which I was pretty familiar with thanks to previous training) and moved on...but in retrospect I should have stopped and tried to figure out what went wrong.
The CURSED ONE HAND RIP DRILL!!!!! Along with South Hill mud, it makes for an interesting sight picture... :D Sorry I had to miss this one.
It f-ing sucks. What you don't see is me exclaiming my surprise to find mud in my rear sight (loudly), and blowing/brushing it off so I can get some semblance of a sight picture before pulling the trigger.
The one hand rip drill isn't so bad, it's just hard keeping all of that stuff in your mind, in order, every time. To me, WHO draws are way worse, both mentally (and for me) physically. I keep telling myself "hurry up and get the f-ing gun out dummy" and my damn hand won't reach, like Tantalus and those stupid grapes.
My gear:
Glock 19 with Larry mag release, Pearce grip plug, Heinie Straight 8s and a 3.5lb connector. CCC AIWB Looper worn at 3 o'clock. CCC single mag pouch for 9mm Glock. Wild Bill's Concealment belt (1.5", double thick, very sturdy.)
The Heinie's got a bit ripped up sometime during day 2, probably during SHO/WHO manipulations. Nothing some cold blue won't fix. I was able to get good purchase with the Heinies either on the belt, on the holster or on the sole of my boot during SHO/WHO manipulations. I like the Heinie's, but I got used to the Warren's on my M&P. I'm wondering if I can swap the Heinie rear for a Warren and keep my serrated front sight. From what I can tell, the Tritium front that comes with the Warren sets is .215" high and .125 wide, same as the Heinie Straight 8 front from Brownells. MLE Shooting Sports sells the rears separately, so maybe I can go that route. I could always order one of the replacement height Glock front sights from Heinie, as they make 3 or 4 different front sight heights.
The Looper works pretty good as a standard IWB holster. I gave appendix a little try, but as you can see I'm a big fat stupid looking bastard and appendix carry is a bad joke when you're fat like me. Unless of course you never sit down or bend at the waist in any fashion.
My M&P had a FTE/Double Feed at the last class (at night) that gave me fits. I broke my striker not long after, which is a big reason I'm back to the G19 for carry.
I had a thing where my shots kept getting higher and higher on the first drill as we moved back each time. I'm certain I was hunting the front sight and picking it up ever so slightly causing me to hit high. I fight that all the time. When I'm not fighting El Snatcho. I found this text tonight looking for info about the Warren's:
Warren Tactical and Sevigny competition and carry sight sets for Glock pistols. All Warren/Sevigny sight sets are designed for a six o'clock sighting method. If you prefer the center hold method, note in the order form comments that you want the .245 tall front sight.
From here: http://www.cpwsa.com/warren_sevigny_sights.htm
It was an outstanding class. As with any class I have attended from Dave the instruction was top of the line. The shooting instruction was excellent and the lecture portion very relevant (different carry & concealment techniques, various holster styles & configurations, various mag pouch styles and configurations, ETC.) All of which is outstanding training.
I shot my HK45 to get some rounds through it, and came away very impressed. I was originally planning on buying a set of Heinie sights for it, but during the class I figured out the stock sights work just fine. Now I just need an HK P30 LEM.
It was nice to meet some new guys and get in two great days of training.
IMO: If you have not attended this class yet, beg Dave to hold another one in 2009. If you conceal carry or plan on doing so you owe it to yourself to attend this class.
I'm sorry I missed this one. The first one Dave taught in '08 was excellent, and well worth attending.
I shot my HK45 to get some rounds through it, and came away very impressed. I was originally planning on buying a set of Heinie sights for it, but during the class I figured out the stock sights work just fine.
Dinger - The stock sights on my P30 were fine for me in daylight, but I found that they were not terribly useful at night, unless I first "charged" them with a handheld light - obviously not very practical outside of class or competition. I've since switched over to Heinie Straight-8's. (For those who are not familiar with them, the factory HK45 and P30 "night sights" use some type of "glow-in-the-dark" paint, rather than tritium. They only emit visible levels of light when first exposed to a light source.) Sorry for the slight divergence from topic..
Warren Tactical and Sevigny competition and carry sight sets for Glock pistols. All Warren/Sevigny sight sets are designed for a six o'clock sighting method. If you prefer the center hold method, note in the order form comments that you want the .245 tall front sight.
From here: http://www.cpwsa.com/warren_sevigny_sights.htm
Does anyone know if the Heines are the same? Are they designed for a six o'clock or a center hold?
Oh and I sure hope Dave conducts another class this year!
Dinger - The stock sights on my P30 were fine for me in daylight, but I found that they were not terribly useful at night, unless I first "charged" them with a handheld light - obviously not very practical outside of class or competition. I've since switched over to Heinie Straight-8's. (For those who are not familiar with them, the factory HK45 and P30 "night sights" use some type of "glow-in-the-dark" paint, rather than tritium. They only emit visible levels of light when first exposed to a light source.) Sorry for the slight divergence from topic..
Hello my friend, I guess I should have been more clear. My HK45's sights are "stock" but do have ToolTech Gunsight installed Trit inserts. I guess that does not really qualify them as being stock anymore.
Does anyone know if the Heines are the same? Are they designed for a six o'clock or a center hold?
Oh and I sure hope Dave conducts another class this year!
Mine hits with the 6 o'clock
FWIW, the stock Warren tritium front is .215". Per Brownells, the front sight that comes with the Heinie Straight 8 package for the Glock is also .215". Heinie offers 3 replacement front sight heights (.225, .235 and .245 if memory serves) so you could move your hits around after you've confirmed your zero.
So if you bought the front and rear separately, you could get a Warren rear with a Heinie serrated front in whatever height you choose if you hit high.
The problem JW777 described during the walkbacks sound like a front sight that was a touch too low (bullets going higher as he moved back) but this only manifested itself at 50+ yards. It could also be very very slight misalignment of the front and rear (hunting for the tip of the front sight, driving it a bit too high) causing the same thing. I fight that all the time.
Heavy Metal
03-01-09, 13:43
I shoot center hold and run the tallest Heinie on my G-19, what are you running Sub?
Just what it came with. I'm reluctant to switch out, since I'm never sure if it's the gun or me. I hit at 75 yds on the walkback holding COM so I have to figure I'm doing ok.
Heavy Metal
03-01-09, 14:19
I had to switch mine out, I was hitting way too high.
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