View Full Version : Lpvo on an Sbr is 1-4 optional?
I have an 11.3" sbr that I run suppressed I just started shooting it at the range and I want to try something with magnification. I can hit steel at 100 yards with a red dot but I feel the strain on my eyes focusing that far out lol. My guess is my maxim effective range is around 200 yards with the sbr in an SD situation. So in my head 1-4 lpvo is more than enough. It would be the equivalent of taking a 50 yard shot on 1x as taking a 200 yard shoot on 4x? Never shot magnification correct me if I'm wrong. I do understand bullet drop and trijectory though.
Is there disadvantaged to getting something that is 1-6 or 1-8? If I had to guess the only disadvantage are weight and eye relief? But I'm really new to lpvo's so that's why I'm asking.
Is the nightforce 1-4 a, good choice? Looking at it because it's light and small. What are some other great options in or around that size? I am going to pick up the leupold 1.5-4 lpvo for a 22 my kids shot so I'll get to work with something before I dive in.
Thanks for the help.
It would be the equivalent of taking a 50 yard shot on 1x as taking a 200 yard shoot on 4x? Never shot magnification correct me if I'm wrong.
Only if you have lenses with perfect clarity and correction, no atmospheric distortion (mirage), and no haze. In reality it's never quite that good.
sidewaysil80
08-10-20, 22:47
The majority, if not all lpvo’s will not have as good of 1x performance as a red dot. That performance gets worse when you start increasing magnification range (ie, x6, x8, x10) and more so with FFP. So if you want as close to red dot like performance, you want a 1-4/1-6 in SFP. If you plan on/intend on shooting at greater distance then say 100/200yds MOST of the time, then sure the higher magnification is more valuable then 1x performance and go with a x6,8, or 10. Personally I think the FFP on a lpvo does more harm then good as usually your shooting at either 1x or max magnification so FFP isn’t needed. Plus it comes at expense of 1x.
The majority, if not all lpvo’s will not have as good of 1x performance as a red dot. That performance gets worse when you start increasing magnification range (ie, x6, x8, x10) and more so with FFP. So if you want as close to red dot like performance, you want a 1-4/1-6 in SFP. If you plan on/intend on shooting at greater distance then say 100/200yds MOST of the time, then sure the higher magnification is more valuable then 1x performance and go with a x6,8, or 10. Personally I think the FFP on a lpvo does more harm then good as usually your shooting at either 1x or max magnification so FFP isn’t needed. Plus it comes at expense of 1x.
Im not sure what I want but in my head I want 1x for self defense and magnification for the range plinking out to 300 yards. So im looking to try an lpvo that could serve both those purposes so I don't need two optics. I love my leupold lco but when I'm at the range shooting out at 100+ it gets daunting and less fun.
Edit, I get ffp and sfp but what I read in one post was that sfp didn't seem to be as durable?
lordmorgul
08-10-20, 23:47
1-4 is perfectly functional to 300y, it’s actually (4.2x) the limit for service rifle competition at 600y where the top competitors are scoring nearly perfect (there now has been a perfect score all Xs). 4x is good. I like my 1-4 better actually than the 1-6 because the glass is a little better (1-4 Vortex Viper PST vs 1-6 Vortex StrikeEagle).
Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!
AwaySooner
08-10-20, 23:49
Get LPVO with day light bright illuminated recticle, you can shot close range close to speed of red dot. Or put a red dot with 45 offset mount, pretty popular set up nowadays thanks to the 3gunners.
Defaultmp3
08-11-20, 00:52
IME, LPVOs just aren't as good as an RDS for typical self-defense purposes. On the flat range running stand-up drills, and LPVO can be run just as fast as an RDS without too much effort, but once you get into unorthodox shooting positions, the RDS is typically for more forgiving; one could definitely work up the skill to run an LPVO as fast as an RDS, but there is much more effort involved, IMO, just because of eyebox issues. I am much more a pistol shooter than a rifle shooter, and when doing matches that utilize VTAC barricades, I find using my CompM5 on my 11.5" to be much more forgiving with head positioning than my Kahles k16i on my 14.5" when it comes down to doing the ports in awkward positions. If you're willing to put in the work, I think an LPVO with a good eyebox is definitely a great choice; if you're not going to be practicing regularly, or will not have the budget to get an LPVO with a good eyebox, I would be much more hesitant about having it on a gun that you plan to rely on for self-defense (if you have other guns you would usually grab before that one, then NBD IMO).
I have an assortment of rifles in various barrel lengths ranging from 10 to 16 inches. I use a variety of optics to include MRO and Romeo 4T red dots, as well as LPVOs. My favorite optic as of late has been the tried and true Trijicon Accupoint in 1-4X24 using the red triangle reticle. It is fiber optic illuminated during the day and tritium at night, so always on. Very bright during the day (adjustable) and bright enough at night. I use the tip of the triangle as a 50/200 zero and find it good to go. The easiest to shoot of everything I have tried so far. Reasonably lightweight and usual Trijicon tough. It's been around for awhile, but maybe there's a reason for that.
I have two of the Sig Tango4 1-4 optics and they are very good, the one knock on them is they aren't the brightest and can wash out a little in very bright sunlight.
Palmetto State has the version with the horseshoe on sale, I'm not sure how that reticle is on a LPVO though.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/sig-sauer-tango4-1-4x24-riflescope-w-sig-sauer-alpha1-steel-hunting-mount-sot41111-a1.html
Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
IME, LPVOs just aren't as good as an RDS for typical self-defense purposes. On the flat range running stand-up drills, and LPVO can be run just as fast as an RDS without too much effort, but once you get into unorthodox shooting positions, the RDS is typically for more forgiving; one could definitely work up the skill to run an LPVO as fast as an RDS, but there is much more effort involved, IMO, just because of eyebox issues. I am much more a pistol shooter than a rifle shooter, and when doing matches that utilize VTAC barricades, I find using my CompM5 on my 11.5" to be much more forgiving with head positioning than my Kahles k16i on my 14.5" when it comes down to doing the ports in awkward positions. If you're willing to put in the work, I think an LPVO with a good eyebox is definitely a great choice; if you're not going to be practicing regularly, or will not have the budget to get an LPVO with a good eyebox, I would be much more hesitant about having it on a gun that you plan to rely on for self-defense (if you have other guns you would usually grab before that one, then NBD IMO).
I find it interesting that unorthodox positions and especially a VTAC barricade is the litmus test for what is considered "real world" capable? How many times are you going to have to do urban prone, roll over prone, or shoot from your back in a real world use of your gun? How many VTAC barricades are you going to have to shoot through the low angled port from in the street? I'd bet 99% of real world shooting will be done on your feet, over and around cover, or moving (which is where I can see a real -albeit small- advantage to a RDS over a LPVO...then again, unless we're talking room clearing distance, you should probably be either shooting OR moving)
Conversely, how likely is it you'll need more than 1x to PID someone shooting up a wal-mart? Or just get the extra magnification to take a precision shot?
All this is fairly theoretical for us as civilians at this point, but if you're looking to get the most out of the AR platform, for a general purpose optic where you don't know what scenario is going to require you to use it, a LPVO beats a RDS...IMO.
For a HD gun, I run a RDS btw.
I find it interesting that unorthodox positions and especially a VTAC barricade is the litmus test for what is considered "real world" capable? How many times are you going to have to do urban prone, roll over prone, or shoot from your back in a real world use of your gun? How many VTAC barricades are you going to have to shoot through the low angled port from in the street? I'd bet 99% of real world shooting will be done on your feet, over and around cover, or moving (which is where I can see a real -albeit small- advantage to a RDS over a LPVO...then again, unless we're talking room clearing distance, you should probably be either shooting OR moving)
Conversely, how likely is it you'll need more than 1x to PID someone shooting up a wal-mart? Or just get the extra magnification to take a precision shot?
All this is fairly theoretical for us as civilians at this point, but if you're looking to get the most out of the AR platform, for a general purpose optic where you don't know what scenario is going to require you to use it, a LPVO beats a RDS...IMO.
For a HD gun, I run a RDS btw.
Taking a shot in a threat at 50 yards or more you better have a damn good excuse. I get what you're saying I'm looking for the best of both worlds because I'm using this as a range fun and an ad rifle. I'm going to get a cheap 1-4 for my kids 22 and see what I think. By cheap I mean good enough quality that it won't sour me to the idea but not something I'll be spending a fortune on for a 22.
IME, LPVOs just aren't as good as an RDS for typical self-defense purposes.
They pretty much suck at CQB... at least the few I've tried. You can do it, but it's awkward and makes my brain pause.
Taking a shot in a threat at 50 yards or more you better have a damn good excuse. I get what you're saying I'm looking for the best of both worlds because I'm using this as a range fun and an ad rifle. I'm going to get a cheap 1-4 for my kids 22 and see what I think. By cheap I mean good enough quality that it won't sour me to the idea but not something I'll be spending a fortune on for a 22.
I’m not discussing legal ramifications for taking a shot. That had better be hammered out in your head before you even pick up the rifle, regardless of the range of engagement. I’m only talking about the capability of the optic/platform. PID doesn’t have to mean several hundred yards. It can be an obscured target at ANY range that you can’t make out at 1x.
grizzlyblake
08-11-20, 12:35
What about a red dot with magnifier?
vicious_cb
08-11-20, 15:08
I’m not discussing legal ramifications for taking a shot. That had better be hammered out in your head before you even pick up the rifle, regardless of the range of engagement. I’m only talking about the capability of the optic/platform. PID doesn’t have to mean several hundred yards. It can be an obscured target at ANY range that you can’t make out at 1x.
Indeed, magnification helps you see what you need to see not to help you shoot better.
I'm a big fan of an LPVO on an SBR. I'm currently running a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 1-6x on a BCM 11.5" gun and it's my go-to gun. I like it because it's handy and versatile. I shoot it in matches where I might have to shoot paper at three yards and then an 8" gong at 200-300 yards. I couldn't do that with a RDS because most of the time I can't even see the gong at that distance. Admittedly the LPVO adds some heft to the gun that it wouldn't have with a RDS but it's a tradeoff worth making IMO. Having said all that, if I had a gun whose sole purpose was HD I'd just run a RDS on it.
I’m a big fan of the 1.5x mini ACOGs. TA44 & TA45
I find them very fast as an alternative to a straight red dot. Red dots are the fastest sight, until they aren’t. If you can’t see your target, it’s going to slow you down. I’ve had / have multiple LPVOs and while they are great for 100-300 yards, they are generally quite a bit slower for me. As in full blown heavier scope / eye box / eye relief / FOV thing slow.
All depends on what your eyes need, distance expectations, quality of optic choices and how much you’re willing to train with said optic(s).
I guess that’s why I’ve got so many stinkin’ rifles because as soon as you have one setup, you’ve made a compromise somewhere. Optics on SBRs are all about compromise. What’s the mission? Get the optic for that mission. Is access to more than one rifle realistic in x scenario or do you need to build one to try to do it all?
That’s why you see goofy things like RMRs sitting on top of 3.5x ACOGs. ACOGs are tough to beat for crystal clear, crisp, fast magnification 50 yards and beyond. There’s a reason our guys use them - they’re an amazing optic that transformed the lethality of our armed forces.
But you don’t want to be stuck @ 3.5x down your 30ft hallway inside your house. Or a fast moving target @ 50 yards.
Unfortunately, for me, I have to try n buy. That can be expensive with optics, but it’s necessary. I’ve had a TON of ‘em.
Your eyes change, too. What was great 10 years ago, isn’t as great anymore.
Couple key things to an LPVO on an SBR if you’re going to go that route is eye relief is king, along with a throw lever to quickly change magnification. Some LPVOs are so stiff and worthless without a throw lever that you have to take your eyes off the target to change magnification. All LPVOs should come with a throw lever on the scope.
My advice is to try stuff. See what makes your eyes happy. What looks good on paper can be crap for you in real-world drills. Maybe watch / participate in some 3 gun matches. It’s amazing to see what some of those guys can do with LPVOs, but, then, you’re starting to step outside of traditional SBR roles there too.
Brahmzy I've been learning all week as much as I can. Like you most times I have to buy to try. Currently looking at the leupold mark 6 1-6 and the nightforce nx8 1-8. Both have a similar eye box both are light weight. The nightforce is brighter and has 2x more. The leupold, I like the cmr retical has a bigger exit pupil. They both check important boxes and I don't need more than 6x. I'm not sure I'd even like an lpvo and considering this is an HD gun 1x is the most important.
My fix for now is I purchased a leupold vx freedom 1.5-4 lpvo for my kids 22 rifle. I'm hoping that gives me some idea of what it might be like and I got it used with an ultralight aero mount so it's a cheap trial entry.
sidewaysil80
08-16-20, 19:25
Im not sure what I want but in my head I want 1x for self defense and magnification for the range plinking out to 300 yards. So im looking to try an lpvo that could serve both those purposes so I don't need two optics. I love my leupold lco but when I'm at the range shooting out at 100+ it gets daunting and less fun.
Edit, I get ffp and sfp but what I read in one post was that sfp didn't seem to be as durable?
I've never heard about ffp being more durable then sfp or vice a versa. However I'm also not a scope engineer(?) and therefore not an expert.
I've never heard about ffp being more durable then sfp or vice a versa. However I'm also not a scope engineer(?) and therefore not an expert.
I read that in one random post. The more I read and learn I don't see how one is more durable than the other so long as your compair the same quality optics. There are plenty of high end optics that are second focal plain.
My guess is the person had experience with low quality sfp lpvo's and generally ffp optics tend to be higher end because there more expensive to make because you're etching a smaller retical. His claim was he had expert with all kinds of optics and never had a quality issue with ffp but had several fail that where sfp. I was sceptical, but I didn't have enough knowledge to even know how to dispute it at the time.
Ricardo China
08-17-20, 17:44
I'm new here and to the AR/SBR in general, but very impressed by the amount and quality of the informations here.
Thank's a lot guys.
davidjinks
08-17-20, 20:08
I used a NF 1-4x24 for quite some time on a 10.3” and 11.5” SBR. I had no issues with it.
The only downside I can see with using any LPVO is eye relief/eye box.
I have an 11.3" sbr that I run suppressed I just started shooting it at the range and I want to try something with magnification. I can hit steel at 100 yards with a red dot but I feel the strain on my eyes focusing that far out lol. My guess is my maxim effective range is around 200 yards with the sbr in an SD situation. So in my head 1-4 lpvo is more than enough. It would be the equivalent of taking a 50 yard shot on 1x as taking a 200 yard shoot on 4x? Never shot magnification correct me if I'm wrong. I do understand bullet drop and trijectory though.
Is there disadvantaged to getting something that is 1-6 or 1-8? If I had to guess the only disadvantage are weight and eye relief? But I'm really new to lpvo's so that's why I'm asking.
Is the nightforce 1-4 a, good choice? Looking at it because it's light and small. What are some other great options in or around that size? I am going to pick up the leupold 1.5-4 lpvo for a 22 my kids shot so I'll get to work with something before I dive in.
Thanks for the help.
I read that in one random post. The more I read and learn I don't see how one is more durable than the other so long as your compair the same quality optics. There are plenty of high end optics that are second focal plain.
My guess is the person had experience with low quality sfp lpvo's and generally ffp optics tend to be higher end because there more expensive to make because you're etching a smaller retical. His claim was he had expert with all kinds of optics and never had a quality issue with ffp but had several fail that where sfp. I was sceptical, but I didn't have enough knowledge to even know how to dispute it at the time.
This is BS. Neither is more durable than the other, assuming you're comparing scopes of equal quality.
Many consider the Razor HD Gen II and Gen II-E to be the gold standard of LPVO's and they're SFP.
As a matter of personal preference I don't even like FFP in a 1-6. IMO the reticle always turns out to be too small at 1x to be of any use, and may be damn near impossible to use without illumination. I don't like having to rely on illumination in an LPVO because they have such poor battery life.
I just recently mentioned this is another thread, but the Trijicon TR24 1-4x LPVO is an excellent choice. True 1x, under 15oz, no battery needed, bright illumination that can be manually turned down, quick to adjust power, and affordable on the secondary market. Mine was $500ish.
The only real downside is the lack of BDC or ranging, which is why it is on a rifle without that need.
https://i.ibb.co/n0tpCzw/20190317-142244.jpg (https://ibb.co/1njc680)
I was thinking about this topic this morning, and the two ass aches with scopes on a potential defense gun are:
1. If it has dial up capability, there's the risk that you're dialed up to 500 yards or something and forgot to dial back down. (I do this with Irons and Scopes)
The risk being that you have to make a precise shot and the bullet sails over the target and hits something/someone it should not have. and,
2. The variable power is inevitably on the wrong magnification that you'd like for the shot you want to make.
I was thinking about this topic this morning, and the two ass aches with scopes on a potential defense gun are:
1. If it has dial up capability, there's the risk that you're dialed up to 500 yards or something and forgot to dial back down. (I do this with Irons and Scopes)
The risk being that you have to make a precise shot and the bullet sails over the target and hits something/someone it should not have. and,
2. The variable power is inevitably on the wrong magnification that you'd like for the shot you want to make.
I think that in most cases, the extra magnification is not so much for long-range shooting, as it is for target identification. Long-range capability is nice, and that's why I prefer a BDC, but for most civilian applications, long-range would be 100 yards.
vicious_cb
08-19-20, 15:41
^ This.
1. People arent dialing on a fighting carbine.
2. Most people who have LPVOs run offset RDS as a back up and for close range surprises
1. People arent dialing on a fighting carbine.
This.
Dialing is for when engaging from an FFP against a known distance target. Holds are the name of the game.
vicious_cb
08-19-20, 17:54
This.
Dialing is for when engaging from an FFP against a known distance target. Holds are the name of the game.
Click Click Click...aaaand hes gone.
If you NEVER dial on your gun, so be it. We dial on all of our guns that have the ability.... All of my fighters are non-Magnification (RDS) for this reason.
I'm running a loaner LPVO from Pappabear. It's got a cool offset mini RDS. The problem is you have to turn it on if you need it, and your head position to see the dot is off the stock. So I have to bob around until I, ONE, figure out if the thing is on, and TWO, find the dot.
In time compression, you'd be better off just shooting with magnification.
ColtSeavers
08-19-20, 18:53
I think that in most cases, the extra magnification is not so much for long-range shooting, as it is for target identification. Long-range capability is nice, and that's why I prefer a BDC...
I agree with this.
I would like to add that reticle choice is extremely important with FFP optics. People like to lie to themselves and choose a 1-4 FFP for a shtf/combat/general purpose gun, and use it for shooting groups from the bench and then bitch about how the reticle sucks, and vice versa.
Pick a reticle that matches the role.
daddyusmaximus
08-19-20, 19:04
Count me in the "red dot for all defensive guns" camp. Sure there's the bad shooting positions thing, but there's also the being rushed... the being scared because now it's real... the I haven't had time to train much lately... Add to that the fact that it's "self defense" and unless it's SHTF rule without law... you're gonna have to answer for why you took the shot. Good luck trying to convince the 6 or 8 liberals on the jury that the 100+ yard shot was "defensive" in nature.
An AR pistol, or SBR is a close range gun if it's for self defense. Besides, with terminal ballistics, you don't really want to be using a shorty AR at that kind of distance anyway...
Now it you want it for range shooting... sure a 1-4 LVPO is plenty enough depending on your eyesight.
Me, I have a 1-8 on my 18" Larue Stealth 2.0, but I'm old, and have bad eyes.
I agree with this.
I would like to add that reticle choice is extremely important with FFP optics. People like to lie to themselves and choose a 1-4 FFP for a shtf/combat/general purpose gun, and use it for shooting groups from the bench and then bitch about how the reticle sucks, and vice versa.
Pick a reticle that matches the role.
This. IMO nobody has cracked the code yet for a good FFP reticle for a 1-4x optic. It's either too small to be useful at 1x or it's too thick to be precise at 4x. Anything in the 1-4x or 1-6x range I say just stick with SFP. Even 1-8x is questionable for me. YMMV.
I gone the route that you use different rifles/ optics for different roles.
At home I have a suppressed 11.5 " barrel with a T2 and a white light.
If I leave the house, its a 16" barrel with a Gen2 Razor 1x6. It also mounts a brighter white light with more throw. The suppressor is optional.
I have a Steiner 1x4 on another 16", but it doesn't match the eye box and ease of use of the Vortex.
All LPVO get throw levers and stay on low power. Anything that might be used for real, white light. I can't picture a realistic scenario where I will be "defending" at a range I need to dial. So set a zero appropriate to the task, inside or out, and know your holds.
Now it you want it for range shooting... sure a 1-4 LVPO is plenty enough depending on your eyesight.
Me, I have a 1-8 on my 18" Larue Stealth 2.0, but I'm old, and have bad eyes.
Yep. The 1-8 I run is totally a range toy for shooting 100-750 yards. ZERO part of the LPVO (that I can think of) makes sense for defense in the civilian role.
This. IMO nobody has cracked the code yet for a good FFP reticle for a 1-4x optic
No doubt. We run two LPVOs for med/long range, but every so often we'll run them at 40 yards or so on the plate rack. The first time I dialed the 1-8X down, I was like "Where did the reticle go?"
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.