Circle_10 tries to build a Recce/DMR-ish rifle [Archive]

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Circle_10

08-11-20, 18:27

I've got a bunch of ARs, but I've always been a fixed FSB guy. So all of my ARs had fixed FSBs and plastic handguards of some type or another, a number of my ARs are Retro clones in fact. So i'd never really messed around with free float handguards.
At the same time I became aware that my AR assortment was lacking in something able to fulfill some kind of 'DMR'-ish niche. Seeking to rectify this I got a Steiner P4Xi a couple years back and stuck it on my 16" midlength

https://i.imgur.com/dmA00e8.jpg
The gun shot relatively well considering it had a non-free floated barrel. But I grew to dislike this setup, the LPVO made it a pig. It was clunky to use, and just overall it really wasn't a good configuration. After about six months I took the Steiner off, swapped the flash hider back to an A2 and put the Primary Arms 2.5x prism it had worn previously back on it. A much better "fit" for this gun.
The Steiner went into storage.

However as time passed I found myself wanting to take another crack at the Recce/DMR style concept. So back in July I ordered a Sionics Patrol 3XL upper receiver with Magpul MBUS Pro sights but without a BCG and charging handle. The upper was taking a while to ship with all the stupidity going on so in the interim I renovated one of my lowers with a BCM carbine receiver extension and a LaRue MBT trigger. Eventually my upper shipped and I got it last week. I added a BCM Gunfighter charging handle and a Sons of Liberty BCG.
https://i.imgur.com/aTQmfFN.jpg

Alright, now we are in business. Took it to the range for the first time today. Weather was brutally hot at 87 to 90 degrees, as well as humid. Zeroing the backup sights at 50yds required a lot of adjustment to the left, but whatever, they are going to stay folded down anyway. After that I broke out the Wheeler FAT wrench and some Loctite and got the scope mounted.

Zeroing the scope was a disaster. My immediate impression was that something about the cheekweld I was getting with the BCM stock really wasn't putting my face in the right position to use the scope. I also found the whole arrangement uncomfortable for some reason. Groups were not good. Something just wasn't working here. After about 50 rounds of XM193 I packed up in disgust and left the range. I only live about six minutes away so it was a quick ride home. immediately upon arriving home I headed downstairs with the rifle and removed the carbine receiver extension, and added a rifle extension, along with a Brownells repro "Type D" stock. My initial impressions were that, yeah the cheekweld felt better for some reason. Looked kind of good too....in my opinion.
https://i.imgur.com/wHO94Ww.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TLMDhGF.jpg
So the parts breakdown as it currently stands:

Lower - An unremarkable SAA lower receiver that had the ol' rattle can treatment at one point.
Rifle receiver extension
Brownells Type D repro stock
Hogue Beavertail grip
LaRue MBT trigger

Upper receiver - Sionics Patrol 3XL. 16" 1/8 twist chrome lined Medium Contour barrel with an A2 flash hider. I opted for the Medium Contour vs the lightweight profile because my intention was to use this gun in the aforementioned Recce/DMR style role. 15" Mlok rail.
Magpul MBUS Pro sights.
BCM Gunfighter charging handle, Mod 4 (Medium latch)
Sons of Liberty BCG
Rail covers of various types.

I debated putting a VFG on this gun but I find myself getting away from VFGs on guns that don't have lights mounted all the time. This gun has a rail section at 9 o'clock to allow a light to be mounted, but I don't think it will wear one full time.

One thing I am considering is some kind of bipod. As much as I don't want to put anything UTG on my guns their Mlok Flex bipod, in which the two legs mount directly to the handguard at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions - looked interesting enough in concept that I nearly bought it. But the idea of having that much weight on the front of gun was really off-putting and I decided against it....and also cuz UTG...
The next thing I looked at was the Heathen Assaulter bipod. Its an ultralight design, which I liked, instead of folding the bipod legs are removed and stowed either off the gun or along the handguard. Interesting idea, but the lack of adjustability for height was a turn off. And I started reading reviews that indicated that the design was somewhat frail and after a period of use the sockets started to fail to retain the legs properly. It sounded like a pain in the ass and I didn't feel like dropping $100 on it.

So when I start looking into bipods more seriously I'll probably just get a Magpul bipod with a QD attachment, so I don't have to leave the bipod hanging off the front end all the time.

Optic is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x LPVO. I'll talk more about that shortly. Mount is an Aero Ultralight SPR mount, which is....fine.

So after my slight reconfiguration it was back to the range. Because my cheekweld was different with this stock I removed the scope and double checked my iron sight zero at 50 yards. Seemed fine. Re-mounted the scope with the FAT wrench. Initially I dialed the scope in at 50yds with Federal 55gr .223. I then started in on a 100yd target to tweak the zero as needed.
https://i.imgur.com/8X80hPI.jpg
by this point the heat was getting to me though, even in the shade. And my face was starting to slide all around on the stock, which wasn't helping my groups. Also the fact it was cheap ball ammo wasn't helping either. POI seemed alright though, as far as windage and elevation were concerned.
I then tried some RUAG Ammotec 55gr 5.56. 100 yd results were "meh".

Next up was IMI 77 gr Razor Core, which I am running low on, but really wanted to try. My experience with IMI 77gr has been that it basically never shoots to the same POI as 55gr ball, which isn't surprising. Why would it?
What I've always run into with this stuff though is not just vertical shift, but usually a lot of lateral shift as well. Today was no exception. By this time so much sweat was pouring off my face that maintaining a solid cheekweld had become impossible so after some intial adjustments I basically gave up trying to dial it in with the IMI because who knows if the POI shift was actually due to the ammo or the fact I could barely keep my face positioned behind the scope properly.

The actual group sizes weren't really too bad, ranging from 1.32'.....but off center, to my dumbass 2.25" group, which was also off center. I have mild OCD (literally) and off-center groups drive me nuts. So you can probably imagine how many vile words I called myself after seeing these groups. For groups #3 and #4 I adjusted my POA slightly to offset the high 100yd POI from having a 50yd zero.
https://i.imgur.com/Jqr5Rmb.jpg
I suspect the gun is capable of better than that, and I'm pretty sure I am too. So I'll be going back on a milder day to try and get things sorted out, which seemed like a better idea than endlessly tweaking my windage trying to correct a POI issue that may have had nothing whatsoever to do with the equipment.

So now more about that Steiner scope. I f*****g hate the P3TR reticle in the P4Xi. I know some people really like it but I just hate it. I hated it from the first time I took it to the range way back when and I hate it now. Even on 4x it obscures way too much of my target and I do believe the fact the reticle covers up what I'm trying to hit contributed to the off center results above and some similar issues I had with it during my first go round with it on my other gun. If I work with it enough, after a while it becomes usable for me and that's about it. The reason why it ended up on this gun is because...well I already had it. I think I was hoping I could make it work, and honestly, when I get back into the swing of using it again, I very well might. But today's outing made me realize how little I missed looking through it.
Part of it is my own fault, because I don't think the P4Xi is really intended for what I'm trying to do with it. I like the idea of a DMR style gun with a 1x capability, because thats just how I am. I think I need something with a higher top end magnification, at least 1-6x, and a different reticle to really get this gun where I want it.

Sometime in the coming months there's a decent chance a used P4Xi is going to end up listed in the Equipment Exchange but for now I guess I'll put up with it.

everready73

08-11-20, 20:22

hazmatt

08-11-20, 20:34

I feel ya on the Steiner. I have that scope . It’s really not a precision scope as it’s more like an alternative to a magnified red dot imo. I am quick on the dot from a high port though. But yeah for shooting groups, meh. Let us know what you end up with. I’d be interested in an alternative. I’ve got a fund going for possibly an nx8 or similar. I’d like more magnification but I’d also like to keep the weight down.

Esq.

08-12-20, 15:58

I have several SPR TYPE guns. I've been very happy with the B5 stock or the Magpul SL but yea, you need a good cheek weld for SPR work. For a scope I might suggest a Vortex Razor 1-6x. They have different reticles and surely you can find one you like.

Circle_10

08-12-20, 22:32

Nice build! I like the look with the rifle buffer set up. Those groups are nothing to laugh at considering the conditions and a 4x scope. I am sure you can do better, but I would be happy with that

You could probably get a good price if selling the Steiner. Many people like them and market is in your favor. If you wanted to stay in the same price range s PST 2, xtr2, meopta optima 6 would be decent options to look at.

I think 1-6/8/10 makes sense for your application more than a top end of 4x

I was surprised to see how much the P4Xi is listed at now. I got mine for like $448 or something a couple years back. I’ve been seeing them advertised at over $700 lately. Yeah I definitely think more magnification would help. A 1-10x would be awesome but I’m pretty sure those are going to be pricey for awhile. I think I could make do with a 1-6 with a different reticle. Hell, being a SFP scope I could probably make do with the Steiner if it had a bit mire magnification.

I feel ya on the Steiner. I have that scope . It’s really not a precision scope as it’s more like an alternative to a magnified red dot imo. I am quick on the dot from a high port though. But yeah for shooting groups, meh. Let us know what you end up with. I’d be interested in an alternative. I’ve got a fund going for possibly an nx8 or similar. I’d like more magnification but I’d also like to keep the weight down.

Yeah I don’t want to be too harsh on the optic when I’m the one trying to force it into a niche it’s not really meant for. I just have never particularly enjoyed it. But I can see how it might be a nice choice for patrol use (Hence the “P” in P4Xi)!It’s been awhile since I shot it at close range on 1x but I remember it being alright aside from making the gun heavy and clunky feeling.

I have several SPR TYPE guns. I've been very happy with the B5 stock or the Magpul SL but yea, you need a good cheek weld for SPR work. For a scope I might suggest a Vortex Razor 1-6x. They have different reticles and surely you can find one you like.

I’ve always liked the basic AR fixed stock, A1 length generally. I guess I’m just really used to it if something.

I’m not really trying to build an actual “SPR” because I probably did a lot of things wrong with this build for that. But an AR with some enhanced capability at extended ranges is something I’ve really been wanting to get for a while. I’ll definitely be looking at the Vortex options.

everready73

08-13-20, 09:08

Circle_10

08-13-20, 09:44

There are not to many options for 1-10 period and the Vortex Razor is the best by far, but pricey

If you follow the Darklordofoptics (Ilya) he has some reviews on some of the lower cost options. He has a website opticthoughts.com i believe and youtube. He had some really good things to say about the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10. There is a big thread on TOS on the brand. They are made in China, but getting some good feedback, especially on the optics. Mike who used to be at Primary Arms is one of their main guys and he is a good dude.

Just an option to consider, but if you are good with 6x on the high end their are better options IMO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzBztbzxGxQ

Worth considering for sure. I suspect I could probably make due with 6x, particularly with a different reticle. Hell with 6X even the Steiner’s reticle would be more usable for me, at least as far as shooting groups goes.

Speaking of which....this morning it wasn’t as hot out so I went back to try again. Much better shooting conditions. Group sizes were similar although they were placed a bit better. Although as I went on I did notice a rightward trend so just before firing the last group with bulk 55gr ball I went left a click on the windage.
Not as much difference in the lateral plane with this gun between the POI with 55s and the 77s, as there is with my others. Maybe because it’s free floated.

https://i.imgur.com/aml3W4N.jpg
On a number of the groups I deliberately held low. Since as mentioned above, I’m technically zeroed for 50 yards.
Looks like I probably didn’t need to hold low for the Federal 55s on the upper right.
That RUAG Ammotech 55gr “5.56” stuff is a brand I’d never used before but Target Sports had some about a month ago and I grabbed 450 rounds with the intention of pulling a few rounds out of each box, totaling 50 rounds, and firing it to check it out. Because from what I can tell it’s Swiss made I guess, should be quality? Most of it I fired through this gun. Although I put 28 rounds through my 11.5” yesterday and got a blown primer that caused the bolt to seize up in the barrel extension.

I wish the ammo situation weren’t so shitty right now (don’t we all) because I’d really like to try a broad assortment of premium or match loads just to see what this gun, with its 1/8 twist, really prefers.

OutofBatt3ry

08-15-20, 21:38

Circle_10

08-16-20, 04:23

The rifle looks great in either configuration. You're running into a lot of issues I did trying to "Group" with a 5.56. I built a rifle very similar; a 16" with a mid/lower tier 1-4 optic and and was expecting 1-2 MOA. It's more like 3 to 4 MOA with the scope I have. You need to remember, standard 55g isn't much better than 2-3moa(or worse) regardless of what gun it comes out of so don't kill yourself trying to group it much better than that. I may step up to nice glass @ 3-10 and try match ammo if time/money permits. Once again, good looking rifle.

Thanks! While going to the fixed stock was an unexpected decision, I’ve noticed that I’ve somehow succeeded in making this thing look vaguely Retro.....which I do actually like. It’s not the aesthetic I was originally going for when I first put it together but I’m digging it.

https://i.imgur.com/CfgvLlB.jpg

So far the worst groups I’ve shot with it have been 2.82” with the Federal 55gr ball and 2.25” with the IMI 77s. All my other groups have been under 2”, with the best ones being 1.32” and 1.38”, so I guess with a 1-4 and that P3TR reticle I shouldn’t get my expectations up too high.
On the other hand I have an 11.5” SBR with an Aimpoint that’s done sub-MOA to 1.5” groups with the IMI before. But even then the dot isn’t literally blocking my view of the target like the reticle in the Steiner.

I really do value having a 1x capability for close range use even if the setup overall is clunkier in its handling than a red dot equipped gun.

3 AE

09-04-20, 14:10

artoter

09-04-20, 17:51

You got some nice rifles there Circle 10. ;)

Circle_10

09-04-20, 18:50

Circle_10, Frankly, I would drop the 1x requirement for an optic on this rifle. You have all the other AR's you can put 1x-4x optics and/or RDS on. Since you are wanting to push this rifle towards the DMR end of the spectrum, why not extend out to something like the Vortex Viper PST Gen II 2-10 x 32. It comes in both MRAD and MOA reticles and you more than double the power on the top end. And for $850, you aren't breaking the bank and can put the savings toward a solid mount and match grade ammo. Just a thought.

https://www.sportoptics.com/vortex-viper-pst-rifle-scopes.aspx

Yeah, that argument does have some legit merit. With the luxury of choice, the odds of me willingly utilizing this in a close range context are not high, even with 1x capability. I think I tend to think in terms of “what if this is the only AR I have with me?” But than again in a pinch I’m able to use my fixed power Primary Arms 2.5x prism at close range, I’m sure I could do likewise with a 2-10 dialed down to 2x. Or, with an illuminated reticle I might even be able to close the objective lense cover and try the old “occluded eye gunsight” trick.
The way things are going, it’s probably going to be awhile before I can get a new optic so I might have to deal with the 1-4x for a bit anyway. Although selling the Steiner would cover a decent chunk of the cost for 2-10 or something along those lines.
I had been intending to procure and try a selection of different match loads as well but you can probably guess how that’s been going.

I haven’t really been able to shoot it much at all. I’ve only got about 120rds through it. I did take the Harris off of my .308 the other day to try using a bipod with this rifle. Groups were quite mediocre as I was just shooting plain old Federal 55gr ball, except for my very first group which was excellent for some reason, and likely just a fluke considering how the others went.

You got some nice rifles there Circle 10. ;)

Thanks! I try.

AwaySooner

09-05-20, 13:04

Circle_10

09-05-20, 14:24

In what scenario would the MBUS rear sight be functional since you have a fixed scope mount? I am asking because I am building a similar Recce type as well, so would like to hear ideas. I ended up replacing 1-4 with a 3-9, and most likely will go to 45 offset red dot.

There’s probably no scenario under which they would be instantly available with my arrangement to be honest. Although I’ve currently got the torx wrench stuffed into the pistol grip and retained with a grip plug. On my previous dalliance with this LPVO and mount on the other gun I used an Israeli handguard band to retain the torx wrench on the handguard.
Not an instant way of accessing the backups by any means but it would at least allow me to remove the optic in the “field” if needed.

Circle_10

10-27-20, 17:39

An update:

So today was the first time since my previous post that I’ve shot this thing. The ammo situation is obviously complicating things and I’ve mostly been shooting AKs like a third-world poor (and actually rather enjoying it, but that’s a discussion for another day)
I know I agreed in an earlier post that a different scope would really benefit me but I haven’t gotten around to getting one yet. So for now it looks like I’m going to be sticking with the Steiner and it’s target-obscuring P3TR reticle that I hate.
I did swap the grip out for the very vertical B5 Grip 23, and my impressions are pretty positive. I could see this grip finding its way on to some of my other guns. It’s my first time using a reduced angle pistol grip.

https://i.imgur.com/0OfZqgK.jpg

Here and there I have been grabbing boxes of higher grade ammo when it’s become available. So today I headed to the range with Federal XM193, Federal Gold Medal 77gr, Federal Gold Medal 69gr, and Federal TRU 69gr. When i arrived at the range the wind was frustratingly high but I went ahead and shot anyway.
I did some shooting with XM193 first, just to check out the POI because XM193 is what I stock the most of so I like to use that as my baseline for all my ARs than adjust accordingly for other loads if need be (and note the adjustments). Finally I shot a couple groups of XM193 on the target pictured below and you can see the results.
Interestingly, the groups that I got with the XM193 are not dramatically tighter than what I can frequently pull off with iron sights on some of my other ARs. This is something I’ve noticed when using my prism scope on another rifle too, optics speed up my target acquisition but rarely do they make a major difference in group size with XM193.

So basically I fired a group from each load at the center to compare POI (aside from the XM193 hitting oddly lower than everything else I was pleased with how close everything was), then fired one group of each load at the four smaller diamonds, holding as close as I could manage to the bottom point of each one. I really don’t think this is what the Steiner’s 4x magnification and P3TR reticle is designed for but I basically said “F**k it! We’ll do it live!”

https://i.imgur.com/xYSBl8T.jpg

The groups shot with the heavier loads are better overall than the XM193 but the reticle on this scope really makes it tough to get a precise point of aim on a small target, at least for me. The Gold Medal 69gr turned out the best overall groups.
One odd thing is that I fired five rounds of the TRU at that lower left diamond but only found four holes. So although upon close examination it really doesn’t look like I stacked any shots, either I put two through the exact same hole or somehow threw one right off the paper completely...
Plus I kinda rushed the top two groups (the second 77gr group and the second XM193 group) because some boomer showed up toward the end with what I’m assuming had to be his mail order Asian child bride and started berating her when she wasn’t sighting in a deer rifle to his satisfaction, which was distracting and.....actually slightly uncomfortable.
I still suspect that with a different optic (and probably a better shooter) this gun can do better. I also intend to take it out on a calmer day with less wind too, although I don’t really get the impression the wind was too much of a factor here.

Renegade04

10-29-20, 15:03

I have built a few RECCE type ARs over the past several years. Here is one I built in 2009 and still have.

https://i.imgur.com/ZQSZ3NR.jpg

The upper receiver and barrel (HBAR 16" w/ carbine gas system) are from Del-Ton. It is a great shooting and very accurate carbine.

Here are a coupe other I still have that were built in the past few years. The top one has a Compass Lake Engineering Recon 16.1" Douglas Stainless (polished) 1:8 twist
barrel w/ mid-length gas system and .223 Wylde chamber. It is one of the sweetest shooting ARs I own.

https://i.imgur.com/Jq0qYjN.jpg

This one has a Ballistic Advantage 16" .223 Wylde 1/8 twist SPR stainless steel midlength AR-15 Premium Series barrel. I really like the MAGPUL M-LOK bipod.

https://i.imgur.com/9XL0POO.jpg

This is the closest one I have to a DMR type rifle. It is my Travis Haley-Blackwater Bushmaster clone.

https://i.imgur.com/cOFufgo.jpg

This was the second RECCE type AR I built back in Nov. 2009. Most all of it is LaRue Tactical with their newest UDE MAGPUL furniture. I wish I still had it. I traded it for three Colt 1911s.

https://i.imgur.com/ey41S5B.jpg

Circle_10

11-22-20, 07:49

Another update:

So I’ve kinda abandoned the whole “Recce” thing for this build. The advice above about ditching my requirement for an optic with a 1x capability has gotten me thinking about taking this gun in a different direction. So as an experiment, yesterday I removed the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x and mounted the Nikon 4-16x50 scope I had on my Savage 10FP I barely ever shoot.

https://i.imgur.com/kwAaHMz.jpg

Also figuring into this decision the shift the focus of this gun is my other midlength AR with a Primary Arms 3x prism on it.
I’ve discussed at length my difficulties being precise with the Steiner’s low top-end magnification and coarse reticle.
Well the PA 3x has almost as much magnification as the Steiner, coupled with a reticle I find much easier to use. It’s also a more maneuverable gun.
https://i.imgur.com/l4kqa0p.jpg
With the 3x it’s capable of putting 10 rounds of M193 into about 2.5 inches at 100yds. With better ammo I have regularly gotten sub 2MOA groups down to almost 1MOA groups out of this gun even with just the older 2.5x prism that I used to have on it. So it’s always been a pretty decently accurate gun.
https://i.imgur.com/8mMjBKK.jpg
So having my new build topped with the Steiner 1-4x starts seeming kind of redundant.

So yesterday I took the “new” build, now topped with the Nikon, to the range (it’s not that “new” really now, I started this thread in like August I think, but I’ve barely been able to shoot this thing)
Mostly the same loads as before, with the addition of Federal TRU 55gr and Barnes 69gr.
Since I was testing multiple loads I didn’t really bother dialing the scope in super precisely for any specific one. However most of them appeared to shoot to pretty much the same point of impact anyway.
This time the Barnes took the top slot with a group measuring .98”.
The 55gr TRU was unimpressive, but I think the TRU stuff is marketed as like a duty load rather then a match load anyway (and apparently the terminal ballistics of 55gr TRU sucks anyway, so it probably isn’t something I’ll buy more of)
https://i.imgur.com/zYQfKTr.jpg

I still think the gun can probably do better, as a lot of these groups aren’t much different than what I did with the Steiner 1-4....it was just a lot easier doing them. I also I feel I’m kind of a shaky “precision” shooter even at this paltry 100yd distance, honestly I don’t do a lot of it (recall my barely used Savage 10FP) so that probably figures in here too. But I kinda felt compelled to push this gun into a niche that made more sense.
A downside is that it’s becoming the kind of AR I hate - a heavy, clunky fuddish monstrosity fitted with a huge overpowered scope. So I still think I will eventually get another scope for it, something in the 2-10x44 range probably, which would be a bit more “proportional” to the gun.

Circle_10

03-09-21, 19:18

So I’m hoping this is the last time I end up seriously changing this gun. The biggest change since last time is that I went back to an adjustable stock.

https://i.imgur.com/MSomj12.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UcyWfb8.jpg

Next, I’m back using the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x after a brief dalliance with the Nikon 4-16x. I also am using an aero Extended Ultralight instead of the SPR type I was using before. Having the scope positioned more rearward + the adjustable stock actually makes a big difference in comfort. I’m now suspecting that the initial problems I had with this stock were related to the more forward scope position forcing my face to take a subpar position.
Another minor change is that I swapped the A2 flash hider out for the old three-prong type. No real reason for this other than “cuz..reasons”. But I think it kinda looks good on the gun.
https://i.imgur.com/LwSqpwI.jpg

Maybe it is the more rear-oriented scope position but the balance seems better this time around than it did when I initially put this thing together last summer.

All that is well and good of course, but how’s it shoot now? Well I decided to find out. The ammo crisis means I’ve been conserving 5.56, which is why I’ve had this gun for literally months now but only have like 300 rounds through it. but yesterday I decided to dip into my dwindling stock of IMI 77gr Razor Core.
Well I’ve discussed my feelings on the P4Xi previously, but after zeroing at 50yds I took it out too 100 just to see how it would do.
Got a group measuring 1.42”, which I was happy with due to the issues I have with the Steiner’s reticle obscuring small targets at distance. And it’s also in the same size range as a lot of the other groups I’ve been getting with the other match loads I’ve tried. While I was being very stingy with my ammo expenditure, I did decide to shoot another 100yd group and turned out a 5-shot group measuring .80”, which I was pretty thrilled with. The larger target actually allowed me to take more precise aim. I would have like to shoot more but I have to ration my ammo now, and try to do more with less.

https://i.imgur.com/qVQ8C17.jpg

So as far as I’m concerned I’m considering the gun zeroed with IMI 77gr, which is the only load I currently have several mag’s worth of aside from thousands of rounds of M193 and M855. I’ll probably check POI with M193 and note the difference when I decide to burn a bit more ammo.