View Full Version : Some guidance needed: Which one?
So I own three piston semi-autos, 2 AR-10s and a SIG551. Iīd like to add an AR-15 and think Iīm going DI this time. Yes, more gas in the face, but also less movement. Now after reading half of the internet in the last days, Iīm torn between three options:
- Savage MSR Recon 2
- DD M4A1
- DD M4V7 Pro
This selection is partly guided by availability, as Iīm overseas. Many other great options like the V7 SLW or BCM are unobtainium for now.
I try to cover two scenarios with one gun, so I will have to compromise. Or get two, but not at once. Mostly, itīs for training on the range, plinking, non-competition sport. The occasional hunting trip (add silencer) may happen, but there is bolt actions for that. I guess:
- 14.5" may offer better balance than 18", is still convenient to handle with silencer attached, the carbine length leans towards reliability at the cost of not being as soft a shooter and more gas in the face, especially when silenced. But weīre talking .223, so.... Recoil is not the issue, staying on target is. Not looking at shaving off milliseconds for competition, but being able to double tap and work practical stages for training is a must.
- 18" appears more sporty, so ideal at the range. Smooth shooter, 3gun oriented. That longer handguard may or may not be useful, dunno. Itīs just that my AR-10 are 18" as well, heavy DMR style beasts (nickname "iron hog") and I look for something more mobile, something that is more fun to shoot standing and kneeling, more agile. The overall weight of V7 Pro is ok, itīs more the balance Iīm converned about. That added weight is at the front.
- Recon is saving 1k, which will directly go into ambi parts and optics. I figure it sits in between the other two at 16", mid-length. Handguard feels tiny compared to a SIG716, but I guess one gets used to that. Canīt compare to the DDs, as those would be mail-ordered. No dealer near me. Looks like this would be a good compromise at a great price - which could also mean jack of all trades.
It boils down to: how much difference is between, say, 14.5/carbine and 18/rifle? Is this more nuances or does it affect strings of fire in a way you will notice without a timer. Secondly, does quality differ so much that Iīd pay nearly double the price for a DD?
Personally I would stay away from the Savage because their specs omit a lot of critical details (bolt steel, bolt testing, barrel steel, barrel testing, etc.)
That leaves the two DD options and deciding between the two will come down to intended purpose. Based on what you're saying you want to do with the gun, I would go with the M4A1.
IMO it's a shame those are your only options. Where are you located?
Dump Savage from the list.
Hammer_Man
08-20-20, 10:39
I've used the V7 Pro's 18" S2W barrel in a couple builds, and it's a solid shooter. Only thing to be aware of, is that it is a heavy barrel which makes for a nose heavy rifle. For bench shooting it's a great choice, but for something you're going to carry I'd pick something else.
everready73
08-20-20, 10:44
Personally I would stay away from the Savage because their specs omit a lot of critical details (bolt steel, bolt testing, barrel steel, barrel testing, etc.)
That leaves the two DD options and deciding between the two will come down to intended purpose. Based on what you're saying you want to do with the gun, I would go with the M4A1.
IMO it's a shame those are your only options. Where are you located?
This. The Savage shouldnt be considered. Pick one of the DD's. Is LMT and option where you are?
Some good options if available:
-LMT
-DD
-Sionics
-BCM
-KAC
-Centurion Arms
Sionics is accepting orders, and picks up the phone when you call them. I've had good luck with their products.
Some good options if available:
-LMT
-DD
-Sionics
-BCM
-KAC
Sionics is accepting orders, and picks up the phone when you call them. I've had good luck with their products.
I would buy a Sionics over a DD if I had a choice, but that's just me.
I would buy a Sionics over a DD if I had a choice, but that's just me.
I agree. That list is definitely not in order of preference.
Some good options if available:
-LMT
-DD
-Sionics
-BCM
-KAC
Sionics is accepting orders, and picks up the phone when you call them. I've had good luck with their products.
Exactly what I'd say for the short list. And totally, forget Savage, their competence is building accurate cheap bolt guns.
Colt Carson
08-20-20, 11:10
I dont know much about these weapons, but would choose any DD over a Savage. And I dont like Marty Daniel.
Go with the DD V7
https://i.imgur.com/0hC3l5R.jpg
Thanks for all of your replies, this is giving very clear directions vendor wise.
Iīm located in Germany, so overall the gun laws are worse than California :help:. It takes some dedication to get there as either a sport shooter or as a hunter. Luckily, I cover both bases by now. But we win stupid prizes like 10-rd mag ban, you get the idea.
Anyway, because of the laws our market is quite limited and so are choices. You may find one or the other mail order shop that has one or two DD in store, but most items are "ordered on demand". A V7 SLW for example equals 4-6 months waiting game. IF those dates can be stressed. HK MRs are sold out and wonīt be restocked anytime soon (piston anyway, so not of interest for now). But you get an idea of the overall situation. We do have some local AR custom shops/makers like Oberland Arms, Schmeisser, Hera or DAR. They make fine rifles, but looking at their barrels, I find stainless all over the place, most of the time buttoned, almost no chrome lined barrels, maybe a few hammer forged. They focus on a certain market.
While Savage MSRs are ... sort of all over the place, even here, it is reviewed as kind of a bargain and price/performance winner. I heard you and will spend the additional grand on a better base system. 4150, chrome line and a track record helped with that.
Some parts we can get via Brownells Germany, like BCM etc. Complete rifles are tricky. Seen a single Christensen AR on the range today, but thatīs a rare sight. So I guess DD is the best path, limited availability, but a little at last. Since building is heavily regulated and I want something that is great out of the box, I guess itīs official now.
Comparing a piston AR to a 14.5" carbine length to a 18" rifle length: Does piston/DI make a bigger difference than gas tube length? Or is it 50-50? Or even the other way round?
Thanks for all of your replies, this is giving very clear directions vendor wise.
Iīm located in Germany, so overall the gun laws are worse than California :help:. It takes some dedication to get there as either a sport shooter or as a hunter. Luckily, I cover both bases by now. But we win stupid prizes like 10-rd mag ban, you get the idea.
Anyway, because of the laws our market is quite limited and so are choices. You may find one or the other mail order shop that has one or two DD in store, but most items are "ordered on demand". A V7 SLW for example equals 4-6 months waiting game. IF those dates can be stressed. HK MRs are sold out and wonīt be restocked anytime soon (piston anyway, so not of interest for now). But you get an idea of the overall situation. We do have some local AR custom shops/makers like Oberland Arms, Schmeisser, Hera or DAR. They make fine rifles, but looking at their barrels, I find stainless all over the place, most of the time buttoned, almost no chrome lined barrels, maybe a few hammer forged. They focus on a certain market.
While Savage MSRs are ... sort of all over the place, even here, it is reviewed as kind of a bargain and price/performance winner. I heard you and will spend the additional grand on a better base system. 4150, chrome line and a track record helped with that.
Some parts we can get via Brownells Germany, like BCM etc. Complete rifles are tricky. Seen a single Christensen AR on the range today, but thatīs a rare sight. So I guess DD is the best path, limited availability, but a little at last. Since building is heavily regulated and I want something that is great out of the box, I guess itīs official now.
Comparing a piston AR to a 14.5" carbine length to a 18" rifle length: Does piston/DI make a bigger difference than gas tube length? Or is it 50-50? Or even the other way round?
I would stay away from a piston AR, with the exception in your case, of a factory HK since they are domestic for you. They haven't been shown to be more durable and every manufacturer's system is proprietary. If you ever need parts you may find it extremely difficult or even impossible to source replacements.
Yes, thatīs what I learned with the SIGs, availability of parts is so limited. Friend owns a 516, good luck finding a replacement handguard. Same with my 551. Itīs awesome for what it is, but not too many choices (trigger). Hence going for a standard DI now, endless options. And HK, proprietary magazines, really? Got my sights set on DD now, just need to decide between short but sweet or the smoothie.
I would buy a Sionics over a DD if I had a choice, but that's just me.
I agree. That list is definitely not in order of preference.
Daniel Defense seemed to be highly respected a decade ago. Is that slipping or is Sionics just better?
Daniel Defense seemed to be highly respected a decade ago. Is that slipping or is Sionics just better?
DD is high quality, but they are not unique in that aspect. They made a great name early on pioneering free-float rails, landing big contracts, and have kept their quality where it should be, but are not particularly remarkable otherwise. Sionics, Centurion (who I forgot to put on the list but will add), LMT, BCM, and a few others sell product that is a minimum of equal IMHO. Once you add preventative maintenance, it basically becomes a wash unless you are looking for something specific to a given company (like a DD Mk18 rail). Where they have excelled is their marketing, and they are able to command slightly higher prices from much of their customers who are looking at them as the premium choice next to DPMS or S&W on the local gun store rack. What you get with a company with like Sionics is a generally equal product with excellent support and without the premium for the name. The same can be said for Centurion and a few similar companies. Sionics in particular seems to be a popular choice for many on this forum, and is generally what I set up new shooters with out of a history of satisfaction with their products, though I don't shy away from other companies. I have no affiliation with the company, but they have a lot of happy customers out there putting lead down range.
Daniel Defense seemed to be highly respected a decade ago. Is that slipping or is Sionics just better?
I don't mean to sound like DD isn't a quality rifle, but I have a couple of nitpicks. I'm not a big fan of their furniture, but that's completely subjective. Someone else may love it. Another thing I don't like are their triggers. With BCM, Sionics, and SOLGW you get a mil-spec trigger but they have some kind of coating that makes them nice and smooth. Last DD I handled still came with a very basic, gritty trigger. IMO if the direct competitors can step up their game with triggers then DD should be able to also. Note that I haven't looked closely at a new one in quite a while though. I am aware that some of their models come with a Geissele trigger so that's a good thing, but I'm sure it drives the cost of the rifle up a couple hundred $$$.
Their barrels are some of the best in the business, and as noted they also make some fantastic rails. These are just my nitpicks. If the zombies were coming I would be very confident with a DD rifle.
DDV7 Pro which comes with Geissele trigger.
Most companies are just AR15 parts inspectors / assemblers with DD being one of the exceptions.
DD appears to have reduced port size on some of their rifles and the furniture can be swapped.
Again, thanks for all your recommendations!
After some additional research I decided to take the DD route and got.... the V7 Pro. Main reason: Gun laws, which made my idea of "short, but sweet (and silent)" not as easy to get as I want it. It will come down to custom build or modified M4A1 in the near future, but I wanted something now. So I looked back where I came from (SIG551) and what the main request for this project was: Less movement for fast follow-up shots. So, DI, rifle length -> V7 Pro. This one will mainly be a training gun used on the range, so I can accept the additional length.
Why not an M4A1? Basically because itīs just a little bit too short without muzzle device when adding the LAW tactical folding stock. A gun needs a minimum overall length of 23.6" (60cm) by our laws. When folded, this asks for something around a 15" barrel length. A pinned and welded MD would be ok to get the missing bit, but there arenīt many flash hider/comp options that also accept a suppressor on top. Surefire, yes, but their suppressors are not (yet) available over here. Which means either no suppressor or no folder. Future options: Surefire becomes available (comps and flash hiders already are), then I could pin a warcomp on an M4A1 and be fine. Or Iīll start with 16" barrel and get this shortened to juuust the right length. Which of course will affect timing, so I need to take a closer look at much barrel is really needed after ports.
That said, my V7 Pro order was delivered already and first impressions are: Spot on. Canīt wait to hit the range, but from dry firing, overall build quality, handling, Iīm more than happy. Balance isnīt an issue either, which was one of my concerns regarding the S2W/bull barrel profile at 18". Now that I joined the DD club, where is my hat?
A gun needs a minimum overall length of 23.6" (60cm) by our laws.
Where is that?
Germany. A "long gun" (in general: rifles, shotguns) is defined as
1. Barrel and locking mechanism are at least 30cm/11.81" long.
2. Overall length for intended use is at least 60cm/23.62".
Everything else is a "short gun" (in general: pistols, revolvers), which is then treated differently.
And of course there is a metric ton of additional regulations that you need to keep in mind, such as type of buying/owning permit, 10-rd mag limit, no attachments that project light on the target etc. etc.
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