View Full Version : Which of these BCG's to buy
I have received superb advice on which AR-15 spare parts to buy and went ahead and bought as suggested. All I really need now is one or twp spare complete BCG's.
Could someone please tell me which one of the fallowing BCG's should I buy.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/toolcraft-logoed-5-56-phosphate-mpi-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group.html
https://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html
https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/
I will buy ASAP after advised
One more for consideration:
https://www.primaryarms.com/geissele-automatics-m4a1-bolt-carrier-group?is=checkout
ColtSeavers
08-20-20, 13:15
I have received superb advice on which AR-15 spare parts to buy and went ahead and bought as suggested. All I really need now is one or twp spare complete BCG's.
Could someone please tell me which one of the fallowing BCG's should I buy.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/toolcraft-logoed-5-56-phosphate-mpi-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group.html
https://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html
https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/
I will buy ASAP after advised
I just had my BIL buy that exact same Toolcraft Nitride BCG (w/C158 bolt) from ArmorAlly, so that's my vote, as I'm also a fan of Nitride.
They were better to buy as spares a couple months ago when they ran about $79 shipped. ;)
They were better to buy as spares a couple months ago when they ran about $79 shipped. ;)
Yeah I saw that I'm 40+ days late and $60 short. But they are the only source of in stock BCG's I can find now.
I have several of the Palmettos with between 500-2500 rounds apiece on them and I haven't had any issues with them. Their Premium phosphates were as lows as $59 last year.....The Nitrides were $49....
Maybe it's out of budget, but I'd look at Sionics for BCGs. They use Ned Christiansen's excellent fasteners as a bonus.
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/bolt-carrier-group-components/130-bolt-carrier-group-np3-coated-carrier-bolt-and-cam-pin.html
I would personally point you in this direction. If you are going for price I would go Midwest, the or Centurion are great. Midwest being nitride, which is just so much easier to clean. I have a Palmetto State Premium and have used Palmetto in the past which I believe ( other people on this form may know better) are Toolcraft, but I have seen issues at classes that pointed me to understand the buy once cry once mentality.
https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/MI-BCG-NIT-Black-Nitride-BCG-p/mi-bcg-nit.htm
https://centurionarms.com/parts-accessories/bolt-carrier-group/
https://geissele.com/bolt-carrier-group-m4a1-5-56mm.html
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/bolt-carrier-group-components/130-bolt-carrier-group-np3-coated-carrier-bolt-and-cam-pin.html
Between paying $120 for a Toolcraft / Toolcraft rebrand, I would just pay $140 for the Geissele, which are made by the same OEM as Colt IIRC.
Nothing wrong with Toolcraft, I have 2 in Colt uppers and they are milspec and work fine, but for a $20 I'd just bump up to Geissele.
Between paying $120 for a Toolcraft / Toolcraft rebrand, I would just pay $140 for the Geissele, which are made by the same OEM as Colt IIRC.
Nothing wrong with Toolcraft, I have 2 in Colt uppers and they are milspec and work fine, but for a $20 I'd just bump up to Geissele.
At the prices for the ToolCraft's, I'd also bump up to the 'G' and ToolCraft is pretty much what I run exclusively.
If you want to semi-roll the dice, pretty sure these are ToolCraft - https://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html
Both are phosphated, install them after you have used some sort of lube over the entire carrier and bolt - I prefer Slip 2000 EWL; and then use some grease - such as Slip 2000 EWG on the bolt cam pin and the gas rings (for assembly - it will burn off).
Between paying $120 for a Toolcraft / Toolcraft rebrand, I would just pay $140 for the Geissele, which are made by the same OEM as Colt IIRC.
Nothing wrong with Toolcraft, I have 2 in Colt uppers and they are milspec and work fine, but for a $20 I'd just bump up to Geissele.
Agreed, I also have a ALG nitride BCG in my A4 clone, I think that I picked it up for $140 at Primary arms
How do bolts like DD command such a premium...I'm a dealer & can get better pricing, but seems geissele could pull the same if it was a name recognition issue??
How do bolts like DD command such a premium...I'm a dealer & can get better pricing, but seems geissele could pull the same if it was a name recognition issue??
Pure marketing.
me2hootyhoo
08-20-20, 18:02
For those prices, order a Sionics and enjoy the upgrades.
titsonritz
08-20-20, 18:09
I'm just glad I picked up (5) SOLGW BCG @ $119.
I recently picked up the Centurion Arms BCG and a Sionics NP3 BCG. You can get on their notification list if not in stock.
ColtSeavers
08-20-20, 18:51
How do bolts like DD command such a premium...I'm a dealer & can get better pricing, but seems geissele could pull the same if it was a name recognition issue??
Guys pay more for double d's...
Guys pay more for double d's...
While I do think DD is over priced generally, I have yet to have an issue with over 13k rds on my oldest rifle, a DDv5, I did put spring co rings in at 8k rds, mainly because it still is my go to rifle
I have a Palmetto State Premium and have used Palmetto in the past which I believe ( other people on this form may know better) are Toolcraft, but
Those guys are masters of bait and switch. If the AD does not clearly state that the item is 100% Toolcraft - It is likely not.
They could have bought raw carriers from Toolcraft and did the finish at PSA or instead of buying the complete carrier from Toolcraft they could have used their own brand chinesium bolt in a TC carrier. On and on with the PSA bait and switch games.
Toolcrafts are worth buying at less than $80, but not at $140.
Sionics or Centurion are what I'd choose if I needed one now.
Those guys are masters of bait and switch. If the AD does not clearly state that the item is 100% Toolcraft - It is likely not.
They could have bought raw carriers from Toolcraft and did the finish at PSA or instead of buying the complete carrier from Toolcraft they could have used their own brand chinesium bolt in a TC carrier. On and on with the PSA bait and switch games.
Toolcrafts are worth buying at less than $80, but not at $140.
Sionics or Centurion are what I'd choose if I needed one now.
I recently picked up the Centurion Arms BCG and a Sionics NP3 BCG. You can get on their notification list if not in stock.
The advice seems pretty unanimous. With what they are asking for might-be-quality, just buy known quality. There are a lot of threads where people tried to save a few bucks and it didn't work out. I generally buy Sionics or Centurion, though I've bought individual bolts from BCM where the other two places were out or I didn't need an entire BCG.
Guys pay more for double d's...
Are they rebranded or made in house??
Are they rebranded or made in house??
Virtually all small parts are rebranded. What matters is the seller's specs and QC.
Those guys are masters of bait and switch. If the AD does not clearly state that the item is 100% Toolcraft - It is likely not.
They could have bought raw carriers from Toolcraft and did the finish at PSA or instead of buying the complete carrier from Toolcraft they could have used their own brand chinesium bolt in a TC carrier. On and on with the PSA bait and switch games.
Interesting, I haven't heard that. I dont really mind if people buy PSA, but they need to be aware that you get what you pay for.
Virtually all small parts are rebranded. What matters is the seller's specs and QC.
I thought that they did the physical carrier in house, I might be mistaken on that. But you are correct, the QC and specs are where it counts
I thought that they did the physical carrier in house, I might be mistaken on that. But you are correct, the QC and specs are where it counts
They probably do. At one point their goal was to produce as much in house as fiscally possible. I read that interview quite a while ago, measured by years, so I don't know how far that went or how much has changed. I'd venture a lot of business models shifted following the spring of 2013.
Those guys are masters of bait and switch. If the AD does not clearly state that the item is 100% Toolcraft - It is likely not.
They could have bought raw carriers from Toolcraft and did the finish at PSA or instead of buying the complete carrier from Toolcraft they could have used their own brand chinesium bolt in a TC carrier. On and on with the PSA bait and switch games.
Interesting, I haven't heard that. I dont really mind if people buy PSA, but they need to be aware that you get what you pay for.
Hank, you say that as if he is stating documented fact.
Notice the 'could have' inserted several times.
Fact is, none of us can be absolutely sure where most of the non-forged parts on these rifles actually come from.
I find it laughable that most of us on this forum give much less thought to the brakes on our vehicles, which we know will be used to save our lives, than we do to the purchase of a BCG.
I think the emphasis placed on who made what is overdone. I buy Toolcraft because they are a very large OEM supplier, and offer an unconditional lifetime guarantee. I trust that they, in turn make sure they source their bolts from another large OEM supplier.
Works for me.
Meandering back to the subject of PSA and Toolcraft and prices. Who do you think gets a better price from Toolcraft, a business with the footprint PSA has, or a smaller business? Pretty sure that the guy who orders hundreds at a time versus tens at a time gets a better price. Which in turn means he can sell at a lower price - if that is his business model.
I just perused the PSA site, didn't look at every PSA BCG they offer, but I did notice that they had one they made in collaboration with Microbest. Do you think Microbest would let them use their name if there were shenanigans going on?
Likewise, even though I didn't look at every PSA branded BCG, I no longer noticed any where PSA noted the bolt carrier was made by Toolcraft. What I did notice, however, is that now PSA is selling Toolcraft logo branded BCG's. This (PSA identifying a lower-priced product used Toolcraft components) would make sense to me if Toolcraft wanted to sell a branded line to consumers using PSA as their primary vendor.
I don't care what folks buy, I just hate innuendo. I've already explained why I buy Toolcraft and save around $40.00 a BCG.
Interesting, I haven't heard that. I dont really mind if people buy PSA, but they need to be aware that you get what you pay for.
When I buy Toolcraft carriers I get them from RightToBear.com or Primary Arms.
When those places sell Toolcraft parts they are genuine TC parts and not some mix of this and that that they cobbled together.
RTB explicitly states as much on their website.
All of our Toolcraft BCG's come assembled from TC. We do nothing to them other than inspect them and put them on the shelf for sale! Be wary of other companies that purchase just carriers from Toolcraft and then assemble BCG's with random bolts! Even worse, some companies get their carriers raw and use inferior plating or coating
https://www.righttobear.com/toolcraft-nickel-boron-158-M16-BCG-MPI-p/tooauto-010-c158.htm
PSA premium BCG are made by Toolcraft. Some folks seem to still base their opinion of PSA based on old information. 2013 is calling.....
I find it laughable that most of us on this forum give much less thought to the brakes on our vehicles, which we know will be used to save our lives, than we do to the purchase of a BCG.
Umbrage, sir.
Brembos.
G-LOC.
Ford OEM sometimes.
Hank, you say that as if he is stating documented fact.
Notice the 'could have' inserted several times.
If PSA was selling a carrier that was 100% made by Toolcraft - They would be proud of that and specify so in their ad.
They have a long history of using other companies names (like FN) to mix with and sell their otherwise cheap parts as 'complete' whatevers. Sure, The barrel may be made by FN but every other part on that complete upper you got from them is going to be the cheapest junk they could cobble together and ship out the door unless the ad explicitly states otherwise / gives you a breakdown of exactly what parts were used. You click the button to buy thinking 'Wow, An FN upper for only --- dollars' and then you receive / inspect it to discover why it was so cheap.
It was so cheap because the only good part was the FN barrel. Everything else was the cheapest no-name BS they could find and buy in bulk. Like the hand guards that went in the trash as soon as you saw them...
WTF PSA junk on top and proper Colt parts below:
https://i.imgur.com/111JAFp.jpg
Aside of the size difference - Notice the gap in the middle of those when installed? LOL!
They regularly skirt a fine line using other big names in the industry to sell products they have assembled from many different sources / vendors and have been doing so for a long time.
ColtSeavers
08-21-20, 20:19
Nvm..
Primary Arms might have some SOLGW BCGs in stock monday....
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PSA premium BCG are made by Toolcraft. Some folks seem to still base their opinion of PSA based on old information. 2013 is calling.....
I visit their place in the industry section at TOS regularly and get to see lots of great pictures of crap they sent out the door and then replaced (once a guy posted up a thread about it there).
Here is a picture I copied and pasted of a fairly recent 'premium' BCG they had to swap out:
https://i.imgur.com/6jpyyEs.jpg
No sir. Toolcraft did NOT make (or source) all of those parts, finish and assemble them, and then send them out the door with their name on that.
Keep in mind that they pay money for that section there and because of that they can moderate / edit / delete any sort of content they wish. Things there tend to go 'poof' and disappear after a while (after they have been resolved) so the section is not made up entirely of threads / posts containing pictures of their screw-ups.
You would know this if you were following them online and reading stuff posted in 2020. You would really know this stuff if one of your complaint threads there went poof after it was resolved...
Hank, you say that as if he is stating documented fact.
Notice the 'could have' inserted several times.
Fact is, none of us can be absolutely sure where most of the non-forged parts on these rifles actually come from.
I find it laughable that most of us on this forum give much less thought to the brakes on our vehicles, which we know will be used to save our lives, than we do to the purchase of a BCG.
I think the emphasis placed on who made what is overdone. I buy Toolcraft because they are a very large OEM supplier, and offer an unconditional lifetime guarantee. I trust that they, in turn make sure they source their bolts from another large OEM supplier.
I literally have to laugh because the dealership had my truck all day Tuesday, and I had new pads installed with my oil change and rotation. But seriously, I just hadn't heard that, I didn't take it as a statement of fact. I rarely do. While this ship is still more sturdy then TOS, it still has leaks. Feel free to buy Toolcraft, I don't really care. I just know what works for me, and those I actually trust advise from, most of whom shoot more than I do, or for a living. I have been in the quality space working in the aerospace, and now medical devise world for the last 8 years and also understand that specification, and QC make a product, but that QC takes time and money.
Not nitride. I prefer my heat treatment to remain in spec.
I visit their place in the industry section at TOS regularly and get to see lots of great pictures of crap they sent out the door and then replaced (once a guy posted up a thread about it there).
Here is a picture I copied and pasted of a fairly recent 'premium' BCG they had to swap out:
No sir. Toolcraft did NOT make (or source) all of those parts, finish and assemble them, and then send them out the door with their name on that.
You would know this if you were following them online and reading stuff posted in 2020. You would really know this stuff if one of your complaint threads there went poof after it was resolved...
I don't really follow any particular brand or person online - certainly not one which I despise - so, no I wouldn't know. As for the BCG in question, did I get the main issues circled?
634936349063491
First off, did PSA say in the product description that the BC was Toolcraft? Regardless, it shouldn't have gone out - unless it was sold as a blem. Second, how old is the picture, is this a recenbt purchase?
Hard to tell if the items on the front of the BC are swaged metal or lube or something, but I assume it's metal.
Again, that shouldn't have gone out as anything but a blem. I guess the bigger question would be did it work?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a PSA employee or anything of the sort, if you are dedicated enough to check, I rarely, if ever, slam any manufacturer. It just seems to me PSA gets no passes on this and other forums, whereas issues with other manufacturers are attributed to 'shit happens' or 'did you buy it to look at or shoot?'
I've had good luck with most of the things I've bought from them. I can't recall anything that I've purchased that wasn't the level of quality I expected. By that I mean if I pay $7.00 for a set of handguards, I expect to get a $7.00 set of handguards. In fact, most items have exceeded my expectations.
ETA: Sorry about the pictures, got impatient when it wasn't loading fast enough and started clicking.
Glock9mm1990
08-22-20, 13:12
No one mentions SOLGW? That’s what I would get.
ColtSeavers
08-22-20, 13:32
I visit their place in the industry section at TOS regularly and get to see lots of great pictures of crap they sent out the door and then replaced (once a guy posted up a thread about it there).
Here is a picture I copied and pasted of a fairly recent 'premium' BCG they had to swap out:
https://i.imgur.com/6jpyyEs.jpg
No sir. Toolcraft did NOT make (or source) all of those parts, finish and assemble them, and then send them out the door with their name on that.
Keep in mind that they pay money for that section there and because of that they can moderate / edit / delete any sort of content they wish. Things there tend to go 'poof' and disappear after a while (after they have been resolved) so the section is not made up entirely of threads / posts containing pictures of their screw-ups.
You would know this if you were following them online and reading stuff posted in 2020. You would really know this stuff if one of your complaint threads there went poof after it was resolved...
I don't know if we should throw those stones, because I remember the BCM BCG debacle where BCM wouldn't even acknowledge it was a problem.
Geissele's made problem threads disappear as well.
I don't really follow any particular brand or person online - certainly not one which I despise - so, no I wouldn't know. As for the BCG in question, did I get the main issues circled?
All except for the garbage milling / machining on the bolt face.
I have a handful of 100% genuine Toolcraft BCG's to compare with and none came with bolt faces like that which leads me to doubt very seriously that TC sourced / supplied that bolt. While they (TC) may not make their own bolts in house - They have standards and I can't see them accepting that let alone shipping it out as part of a complete carrier.
Well thanks once again to those more knowledgeable than myself on all matters AR-15.
Bought two Toolcraft top shelf black Nitride coated BCG's along with a complete 9310/158 black Nitride bolt kit. Combined with the upper and lower parts kits I bought at the recommendation of 26Inf along with two replacement gas tubes I should be GTG for keeping my beloved AR's up and running.
Next check pay period I'm picking up 16 extra hours of OT just to fund another AR purchase and I will be set.
Again greatest of thanks to all who contributed to my ever growing knowledge and AR-15 education.
I have BCM BCGs in my ARs for my primary BCG and have spare gas rings, cam pins, firing pin retainers, firing pins, spare extractors and springs. I do have a few Toolcraft BCGs that I will use as emergency spares.
I did put one in my AR and fired a few hundred rounds and they seem like a good value. I don’t have endless supply of money to afford all BCM BCGs.
I bought them back before the pandemic started.
MikhailBarracuda91
08-28-20, 09:28
I have BCM BCGs in my ARs for my primary BCG and have spare gas rings, cam pins, firing pin retainers, firing pins, spare extractors and springs. I do have a few Toolcraft BCGs that I will use as emergency spares.
I did put one in my AR and fired a few hundred rounds and they seem like a good value. I don’t have endless supply of money to afford all BCM BCGs.
I bought them back before the pandemic started.Same thing here. I also have a spare LMT full auto (non enhanced BCG) and the LMT is unique in how it throws cases at 1 o'clock in all rifles I put it in. Very smooth too
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Same thing here. I also have a spare LMT full auto (non enhanced BCG) and the LMT is unique in how it throws cases at 1 o'clock in all rifles I put it in. Very smooth too
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Why would it do that?
MikhailBarracuda91
08-28-20, 09:43
Why would it do that?Chris Bartocci from Small arms Solutions actually said it's a design from LMT. It has something to do with US military arms, apparently the M1 Garand, M1 carbine, M14, etc all eject at 1 o'clock.
I'm sure it gives LMT some kind of operational advantage from a tactics standpoint. I could definitely be wrong lol so don't roast me M4C!!!
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I concur with the aboves. Toolcraft or Geissele, you can't go wrong. Labor Day deals may be popping up any time now, so keep an eye out.
BuzzinSATX
08-31-20, 17:20
Guys pay more for double d's...
LOL!!!
Yeah, cause they love eye candy and to go “BRRRRRR”
Oh, and they will also pay more for Daniel Defense too...
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No one mentions SOLGW? That’s what I would get.We do BCGs right.
Thanks for the mention
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ColtSeavers
08-31-20, 20:27
LOL!!!
Yeah, cause they love eye candy and to go “BRRRRRR”
Oh, and they will also pay more for Daniel Defense too...
Last set I got ahold of, I put a one piece ring on...
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