View Full Version : Got run out of 5.11 for no mask
grizzlyblake
08-21-20, 11:18
I ran into the local 5.11 store earlier today to grab a couple pairs of jeans. When I got to the jean rack and grabbed a couple pairs in my size a store employee approached me.
5.11: "Sir, do you have a mask?
Me: "No, sorry man, I don't."
5.11: "Our policy is that everyone must wear a mask."
Me: "Yeah, sorry, I don't have one on me."
5.11: "It's our corporate policy. I can't even ring you up unless you are wearing a mask."
Me: "Are you serious?"
5.11: "We have some that I could sell you if you want but you have to wear a mask."
Me: "Well, okay then, guess I'm not buying jeans today if you won't let me."
I put the jeans down and walked out.
I've been wearing their jeans since they came out, and I'm pretty surprised that they are taking a hard line on the mask wearing mandate. Sucks because I like their jeans, but not sure I will be spending any more money with them after that.
Anyone know of any other quality pants that fit like the 511 Defenderflex line?
cool story, bro.
You don't need no commie pants...Just Donald Duck it.
I don’t get it.
Wearing a face covering is the easiest thing we can do to keep people healthy.
It’s pretty effective.
Why are people such stubborn pussies about masks? Wear the damn thing like a considerate responsible adult.
https://youtu.be/kYJvU81DKgk
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 11:47
The nerve of them to try and protect their employees and customers during a pandemic. You showed them.
Cut off your nose to spite your face.
sidewaysil80
08-21-20, 12:02
I don’t get it.
Wearing a face covering is the easiest thing we can do to keep people healthy.
It’s pretty effective.
Why are people such stubborn pussies about masks? Wear the damn thing like a considerate responsible adult.
https://youtu.be/kYJvU81DKgk
Effective how, wearing a mask to protect against a non-airborne virus? You video shows a properly fitted/N95 mask. Everyone is wearing ill fitted jalopy surgical masks or cotton ones...point is moot.
Effective how, wearing a mask (mostly cotton) to protect against a non-airborne virus? .
Airborne droplets aren’t the same thing as an airborne pathogen.
Masks catch a decent amount of droplets that we breathe out, not just sneezing or coughing. Ever see your breath when it’s cold out?
It’s not asking much. No sympathy, wear a mask.
Whiskey_Bravo
08-21-20, 12:08
I don’t get it.
Wearing a face covering is the easiest thing we can do to keep people healthy.
It’s pretty effective.
Why are people such stubborn pussies about masks? Wear the damn thing like a considerate responsible adult.
https://youtu.be/kYJvU81DKgk
Oh yeah. All of those homemade mask and .10 cent Chinese "surgical" mask are really protecting everybody.
grizzlyblake
08-21-20, 12:08
I didn't make some scene or try to make a point. I literally didn't have a mask. I don't keep one with me because I don't go anywhere that requires one.
I knew exactly what I wanted and already had the jeans in my hand. I just wanted to check out and go on. If the guy had given me a free disposable one I probably would've put it on but I wasn't going to pay for a fancy 5.11 branded mask to just immediately throw it away.
I don't get though, how if all the employees in there had masks on, me not wearing one endangered them. If the masks are effective, and they all had them on, weren't they protected?
Oh yeah. All of those homemade mask and .10 cent Chinese "surgical" mask are really protecting everybody.
It’s better than nothing.
It’s been almost 6 months we’ve had this thing going around. I thought by now we’d be tripping over boxes of real N95s instead of improvised homemade stuff, yet, here we are.
sidewaysil80
08-21-20, 12:11
Airborne droplets aren’t the same thing as an airborne pathogen.
Masks catch a decent amount of droplets that we breathe out, not just sneezing or coughing. Ever see your breath when it’s cold out?
It’s not asking much. No sympathy, wear a mask.
I couldn't care less tbh.
Effective how, wearing a mask to protect against a non-airborne virus? You video shows a properly fitted/N95 mask. Everyone is wearing ill fitted jalopy surgical masks or cotton ones...point is moot.
Lots of epidemiological studies shows they are effective.
Cultures that are mask wearing (Japan, Hong Kong, for example) both are very dense populations and have a Covid death rate that is about two orders of magnitude less than the US, and their case rate is close to two orders of magnitude less (both per capita per million). Japan has 1/3 the population of the US (in round numbers) in the size of California and greater metro Tokyo is 40 million itself. Lots of public transportation and dense groups of people. Their culture has long worn masks in times of sickness, as well as during the regular flu season. Hong kong has very similar numbers.
When you breathe, cough, sneeze, and are infected (even asymptomatic) you spread a ton of virus through droplets. Catching a lot of those droplets reduces the viral load others are exposed to.
Stop missing the forest for the trees.
I didn't make some scene or try to make a point. I literally didn't have a mask. I don't keep one with me because I don't go anywhere that requires one.
I knew exactly what I wanted and already had the jeans in my hand. I just wanted to check out and go on. If the guy had given me a free disposable one I probably would've put it on but I wasn't going to pay for a fancy 5.11 branded mask to just immediately throw it away.
I don't get though, how if all the employees in there had masks on, me not wearing one endangered them. If the masks are effective, and they all had them on, weren't they protected?
A lot of businesses do have cheap disposable ones for those who do not have one. They probably should have had backups for customers. That is a valid point.
sidewaysil80
08-21-20, 12:21
Lots of epidemiological studies shows they are effective.
Cultures that are mask wearing (Japan, Hong Kong, for example) both are very dense populations and have a Covid death rate that is about two orders of magnitude less than the US, and their case rate is close to two orders of magnitude less (both per capita per million). Japan has 1/3 the population of the US (in round numbers) in the size of California and greater metro Tokyo is 40 million itself. Lots of public transportation and dense groups of people. Their culture has long worn masks in times of sickness, as well as during the regular flu season. Hong kong has very similar numbers.
When you breathe, cough, sneeze, and are infected (even asymptomatic) you spread a ton of virus through droplets. Catching a lot of those droplets reduces the viral load others are exposed to.
Stop missing the forest for the trees.
Japan and most other Asian cultures are far more cleaner than western civilizations. They frequently wash hands, remove shoes before entering homes, frequently clean, and have less physical contact to begin with. Generations of cultural/societal norms are likely the culprit...not masks.
It’s better than nothing.
It’s been almost 6 months we’ve had this thing going around. I thought by now we’d be tripping over boxes of real N95s instead of improvised homemade stuff, yet, here we are.
Over 6 months now and still no worse then the flu unless you're over 50. Even then who knows due to any death seems to get a covid label. Yet here we are...kicking people out of stores, ratting on each other over bullshit masks that do little, and destroying our economy. But yeah, wear your mask...because "it's better than nothing and makes people "feel" good". Now where have I heard that logic before?
WickedWillis
08-21-20, 12:21
I run a branch store for my Company. Masks are mandated in my County, but not by my company at my location. Our home Office they are required. I wear mine every time I deal with customers throughout the day, but I let my customers decide if they want to wear them or not. I've had too many altercations with customers during covid, I just don't even want to **** with it anymore.
It puts employees in such a bad spot. They don't make the rules, corporate does, and If they want to keep their job, they have to enforce corporate policy. Be kind, and remember that.
grizzlyblake
08-21-20, 12:21
Especially since this is not an area where wearing a mask is common. I see maybe 1 in 100 people wearing a mask out in public. Around here everyone is eating in restaurants, etc. like normal.
I couldn't care less tbh.
Yeah, you don’t seem like someone who understands basic science tbh
Japan and most other Asian cultures are far more cleaner than western civilizations. They frequently wash hands, remove shoes before entering homes, frequently clean, and have less physical contact to begin with. Generations of cultural/societal norms are likely the culprit...not masks.
Sorry, I disagree. My wife is from Japan and we go there often (about every other year for about 3 weeks at a time). The country is no cleaner than any other 1st world country. Some areas are super clean, other areas are dirty. Just like here. And with their population density, you come into contact with people a lot, whether or not you want to. Riding trains and busses, which they do a lot more of than most of us, for example. You are often packed tight. Because of the population density and the urban-ness of the culture, they have MORE contact with each other.
Taking off your shoes to enter a home does little for virus compared to the masks. I am not convinced the population as a whole washes their hands that much more than we do in the US. Probably a little but not that would give close to 2 orders of magnitude lower death rate/case rate.
The major difference is the mask wearing, and a bunch of recent studies agree.
sidewaysil80
08-21-20, 12:27
Yeah, you don’t seem like someone who understands basic science tbh
I'm not arguing with science about masks, just that this whole thing is entirely overblown and wearing masks to protect from the scary "pandemic" is laughable.
Over 6 months now and still no worse then the flu unless you're over 50. Even then who knows due to any death seems to get a covid label. Yet here we are...kicking people out of stores, ratting on each other over bullshit masks that do little, and destroying our economy. But yeah, wear your mask.
You’re lumping too many issues together.
I don’t want to rat anyone out. I certainly don’t want the economy (further) destroyed.
But I don’t want to help contribute to someone over 50s death, in some small way. Masks help me do that: mitigate my role in accidentally killing an elderly person. It’s not much to ask, I keep 2 masks in my truck.
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 12:32
Oh yeah. All of those homemade mask and .10 cent Chinese "surgical" mask are really protecting everybody.
Cases, hospitalizations, ICU cases, and vent use have all been on a steady decline in Texas after masks were mandated. It’s not just coincidence.
I'm not arguing with science about masks, just that this whole thing is entirely overblown and wearing masks to protect from the scary "pandemic" is laughable.
It probably is overblown. For 95% of society it’s for sure overblown.
But places have their policies, they’re trying to avoid civil suits most likely.
I agree with the OP, they should’ve had a disposable to offer you. Trying to make you buy a tacticool mask is ridiculous
WickedWillis
08-21-20, 12:35
You’re lumping too many issues together.
I don’t want to rat anyone out. I certainly don’t want the economy (further) destroyed.
But I don’t want to help contribute to someone over 50s death, in some small way. Masks help me do that: mitigate my role in accidentally killing an elderly person. It’s not much to ask, I keep 2 masks in my truck.
I completely agree with this mindset.
My 78 year-old Grandmother moved in next door to me in April, and I have been constantly making sure I am taking precautions when I see her, or take her shopping, etc. I'm just much more mindful because of her. I don't think she would survive it, and I sure as hell would never forgive myself if my negligence gave it to her, or some other elderly or immunity compromised person. Not worth it.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 12:38
Lots of epidemiological studies shows they are effective.
Cultures that are mask wearing (Japan, Hong Kong, for example) both are very dense populations and have a Covid death rate that is about two orders of magnitude less than the US, and their case rate is close to two orders of magnitude less (both per capita per million). Japan has 1/3 the population of the US (in round numbers) in the size of California and greater metro Tokyo is 40 million itself. Lots of public transportation and dense groups of people. Their culture has long worn masks in times of sickness, as well as during the regular flu season. Hong kong has very similar numbers.
When you breathe, cough, sneeze, and are infected (even asymptomatic) you spread a ton of virus through droplets. Catching a lot of those droplets reduces the viral load others are exposed to.
Stop missing the forest for the trees.
Comparing countries death rate and infection rates are apples and oranges. Testing, the amount, and when it is done are different....how they consider a COVID death are also different. Comparing them accomplishes zero for both sides of the argument.
There are epidemiologists that also say that masks do nothing...so there is that. If you are sneezing and/or coughing, you shouldn't be going out in public in the first place, much less a full blown sneeze would separate the mask from the face anyway, then cause someone to have to grab the "infected" mask to fix it then go about touching everything else they want. It's a false sense of security that is more harmful than helpful.
I'm not arguing with science about masks, just that this whole thing is entirely overblown and wearing masks to protect from the scary "pandemic" is laughable.
Society is going to have to adjust and learn to live with Covid. Just like we learned to with the flu. But until we realize that, it behooves all of us to help get the case count low so that the power hungry officials in various locales/states etc. don't have an excuse to ratchet up restrictions and other stuff.
Masks do not solve the problem -- they help keep the spread more manageable but they don't get rid of the virus or treat the disease and cure it. Masks do help protect people from getting it, at least for a while, but they don't attack the root problem. But until 2 things happen: 1. Society realizes this is a long term problem and for the society not much worse than others we have like the flu, and we need to come to terms with it, and not make the "solution" worse than the problem, and 2. they get better treatments or ways to defeat the virus itself -- we'll have to deal with and use the short term solutions like masks to keep ot under control.
I think I posted this but am not sure. This is interesting and hopefully this and other studies will help society realize they will have to accept it long term: https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases-spiking-regions-strict-mask-mandates-lockdowns
sidewaysil80
08-21-20, 12:40
.05% of the US population dies from COVID...force people to wear masks, limit business, restrict church services, etc. etc.
.19% of the US population dies from Heart Disease...some PSA's and billboards about exercising
We are doing more for less because it's politically convenient and people buy into it due to a herd mentality.
Comparing countries death rate and infection rates are apples and oranges. Testing, the amount, and when it is done are different....how they consider a COVID death are also different. Comparing them accomplishes zero for both sides of the argument.
There are epidemiologists that also say that masks do nothing...so there is that. If you are sneezing and/or coughing, you shouldn't be going out in public in the first place, much less a full blown sneeze would separate the mask from the face anyway, then cause someone to have to grab the "infected" mask to fix it then go about touching everything else they want.
The comparisons are still valid because we are speaking of orders of magnitude. Exactly what is a Covid death or how much testing is going on will change the details, but not the magnitude appreciably.
Not everyone realizes they are sick with Covid in the first place, so mandating a mandatory quarantine is not going to work unless you totally shut down everything. And we have tried that, kind of, earlier this year, and it did not work out so well. The economic impact was much worse than the help it did.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 12:42
Society is going to have to adjust and learn to live with Covid. Just like we learned to with the flu. But until we realize that, it behooves all of us to help get the case count low so that the power hungry officials in various locales/states etc. don't have an excuse to ratchet up restrictions and other stuff.
Masks do not solve the problem -- they help keep the spread more manageable but they don't get rid of the virus or treat the disease and cure it. Masks do help protect people from getting it, at least for a while, but they don't attack the root problem. But until 2 things happen: 1. Society realizes this is a long term problem and for the society not much worse than others we have like the flu, and we need to come to terms with it, and not make the "solution" worse than the problem, and 2. they get better treatments or ways to defeat the virus itself -- we'll have to deal with and use the short term solutions like masks to keep ot under control.
I think I posted this but am not sure. This is interesting and hopefully this and other studies will help society realize they will have to accept it long term: https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases-spiking-regions-strict-mask-mandates-lockdowns
What I think it will end up being is that you can either rip the band aid off or pull it off slowly...the end result is the same. The big difference between the two is that the slow method significantly hurt the economy and citizens of that country.
It's a false sense of security that is more harmful than helpful.
Exactly how please?
Whiskey_Bravo
08-21-20, 12:47
Cases, hospitalizations, ICU cases, and vent use have all been on a steady decline in Texas after masks were mandated. It’s not just coincidence.
Well if we are looking at data it is on the decline in most places, mask order or not.
What I think it will end up being is that you can either rip the band aid off or pull it off slowly...the end result is the same. The big difference between the two is that the slow method significantly hurt the economy and citizens of that country.
Masks don't hurt the economy and citizens. They just butthurt the "patriots" who don't like to play along. Masks are part of the "slow" path without closing businesses and doing mass quarantines. The mass quarantines and business closures are what hurts the economy and citizens. Masks help us avoid that.
I am not in favor of governmental forced mask requirements/mandates. We should all be smart enough to do the right thing. Private businesses have the right to mandate what they want. I think we should be doing the Swedish model. That model relies on the citizens to be smart and do what is right without a nanny state telling them what to do.
I wear a mask when in a public building (or otherwise enclosed area like public transit if I were to take it). If I were in a massed gathering outside -- think Woodstock mass -- I would probably wear it outside. I do not wear a mask when outside by myself. I steer clear of others I meet ("social distancing"). I do not wear one in my house or in my car. I've been wearing a mask to shop etc since around March. Way before our county mandated them.
At least you're not required to wear cone like a dog, that is for wait staff at restaurants in the State of Maine. These governors are really coming up with some creative safety measures:
"Maine Governor Orders Restaurant Staff To Wear COVID-Visors Like Dog-Cones"
https://i.imgur.com/ZJDV3T8l.jpg
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/maine-governor-orders-restaurant-staff-wear-covid-visors-dog-cones
Remember when we all thought all we had to do was flatten the curve. It’s funny to look back and think of those as good days.
Now it appears there will be mask mandates for the Foreseeable future. With the ruling class threatening to close businesses and shut things down again if us peasants don’t abide by the rules. Remember children we won’t get our toys back until we play nice.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 12:50
Exactly how please?
Masks give the false sense of security when they really don't protect the user much at all. People don't think of the touching aspect and cross contamination resulting in it. People tend to overuse a mask because they don't want to keep discarding (washing) and buying new ones. People see the othee people wearing a mask and think, "It's all good" when in reality, it isn't.
.05% of the US population dies from COVID...force people to wear masks, limit business, restrict church services, etc. etc.
.19% of the US population dies from Heart Disease...some PSA's and billboards about exercising
We are doing more for less because it's politically convenient and people buy into it due to a herd mentality.
AND? Heart Disease is not contagious. Unless you want to go full authoritarian and ban all sorts of foods and force people using dudes with guns to get on the treadmill, etc. there is not much more you can do except PSAs, education, etc. Covid IS easily transmissible and so they can do more. It is also a lot more of an unknown now so they are trying to get ahead of it while they learn about it.
This has nothing to do with "herd" mentality. Stop making yourself so self-important by calling anyone who happens to understand the actual why and benefit of the mask a "herd" member as if they have no brains of their own.
At least you're not required to wear cone like a dog, that is for wait staff at restaurants in the State of Maine. These governors are really coming up with some creative safety measures:
"Maine Governor Orders Restaurant Staff To Wear COVID-Visors Like Dog-Cones"
https://i.imgur.com/ZJDV3T8l.jpg
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/maine-governor-orders-restaurant-staff-wear-covid-visors-dog-cones
I would like to say that’s unbelievable but you can’t really use that anymore in 2020.
I’m sure there will be many members here rushing out to get their new cone. Got to protect grandma . I wonder what color of camo they can get it in.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 12:52
Masks don't hurt the economy and citizens. They just butthurt the "patriots" who don't like to play along. Masks are part of the "slow" path without closing businesses and doing mass quarantines. The mass quarantines and business closures are what hurts the economy and citizens. Masks help us avoid that.
I am not in favor of governmental forced mask requirements/mandates. We should all be smart enough to do the right thing. Private businesses have the right to mandate what they want. I think we should be doing the Swedish model. That model relies on the citizens to be smart and do what is right without a nanny state telling them what to do.
I wear a mask when in a public building (or otherwise enclosed area like public transit if I were to take it). If I were in a massed gathering outside -- think Woodstock mass -- I would probably wear it outside. I do not wear a mask when outside by myself. I steer clear of others I meet ("social distancing"). I do not wear one in my house or in my car. I've been wearing a mask to shop etc since around March. Way before our county mandated them.
I agree....and guess what one of their epidemiologists thinks about masks?
Masks give the false sense of security when they really don't protect the user much at all. People don't think of the touching aspect and cross contamination resulting in it. People tend to overuse a mask because they don't want to keep discarding (washing) and buying new ones. People see the othee people wearing a mask and think, "It's all good" when in reality, it isn't.
But they do protect the user. Your claim is invalid. Masks aren't perfect and not everyone uses them correctly. That is no excuse for everyone else to not wear them.
If you are the sort of person who "sleeps" with people they are not married to, do you say no to a condom because it has a chance to fail or be used incorrectly or is taking away your freedom or you don't want to be part of the herd?
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 12:54
Well if we are looking at data it is on the decline in most places, mask order or not.
The Texas data is very clear, it spiked after masks were mandated after a steady climb (spiking after was expected due to the lag factor) and then continued to decline ever since. There was no reason to expect the numbers to decline the way they have if nothing had been done.
Diamondback
08-21-20, 12:54
Want absolute certainty?
Stop The Spread, Bag Your Head!
I agree....and guess what one of their epidemiologists thinks about masks?
You can find reasonable scientists on both sides. I am pretty sure that there are also epidemiologists in Sweden who think masks are a good idea. The difference is that Sweden is letting the people (and businesses) decide, which I support. Sweden is not saying you shouldn't wear a mask. They are letting you decide. That does not change the actual science and efficacy of mask wearing for the population.
sidewaysil80
08-21-20, 12:55
AND? Heart Disease is not contagious. Unless you want to go full authoritarian and ban all sorts of foods and force people using dudes with guns to get on the treadmill, etc. there is not much more you can do except PSAs, education, etc. Covid IS easily transmissible and so they can do more. It is also a lot more of an unknown now so they are trying to get ahead of it while they learn about it.
This has nothing to do with "herd" mentality. Stop making yourself so self-important by calling anyone who happens to understand the actual why and benefit of the mask a "herd" member as if they have no brains of their own.
While heart disease is not contagious we certainly don't mind going full authoritarian for a virus that is responsible for FAR LESS death in this country.
You can find reasonable scientists on both sides. I am pretty sure that there are also epidemiologists in Sweden who think masks are a good idea. The difference is that Sweden is letting the people (and businesses) decide, which I support. Sweden is not saying you shouldn't wear a mask. They are letting you decide. That does not change the actual science and efficacy of mask wearing for the population.
https://nypost.com/2020/08/19/swedens-tegnell-wearing-face-masks-may-be-very-dangerous/
Maine is a mixed up place anyway. (Said from someone who grew up in Mass :) )
Hopefully none of the governors or mayors in reasonable areas see this and getting any stupid ideas.
Getting stupid ideas?! Look where we are now from a year ago...then look at the raw data and stats. This whole response and knee jerk reaction has a been a stupid idea.
Maine is a mixed up place anyway. (Said from someone who grew up in Mass :) )
Hopefully none of the governors or mayors in reasonable areas see this and getting any stupid ideas.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 13:00
The Texas data is very clear, it spiked after masks were mandated after a steady climb (spiking after was expected due to the lag factor) and then continued to decline ever since. There was no reason to expect the numbers to decline the way they have if nothing had been done.
You mean like Sweden?
Belgium and Spain have mandatory mask mandates and they still saw a rise in infections.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 13:08
You can find reasonable scientists on both sides. I am pretty sure that there are also epidemiologists in Sweden who think masks are a good idea. The difference is that Sweden is letting the people (and businesses) decide, which I support. Sweden is not saying you shouldn't wear a mask. They are letting you decide. That does not change the actual science and efficacy of mask wearing for the population.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/08/swedens-top-epidemiologist-see-no-point-wearing-masks/
I would like to say that’s unbelievable but you can’t really use that anymore in 2020.
I’m sure there will be many members here rushing out to get their new cone. Got to protect grandma . I wonder what color of camo they can get it in.
Each of these governors seem to have enjoyed this new-found power. Here in New Mexico, you can go to a gym, spray sweat around, but you can't eat inside at a dine-in restaurant with 6 foot spacing between the tables. Everyone is making this up as they go. The tent business has been in big demand in New Mexico because restaurants now set up these canopies outside and you can enjoy your meal in 96 degree temps outside.
I'm not opposed to VOLUNTARILY (no government mandates should happen) wearing masks IF it's actually proven to limit the spread to others or protect me. It's not about 'muh rights', being a 'patriot', or anything like that. Glad to wear one (and actually do, in stores in my area that required it) if it really makes a difference.
However...it really hasn't been proven to make a difference. The WHO's medical division top decision makers may have been tainted by Chinese influence, but their medical/scientific recommendations are still the global gold standard. Here's what their public guidance on masks actually says.
To cut thru the blather, download the PDF and go to the section with the heading Guidance on the use of masks for the general public:
WHO mask guidance (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks)
Here's the whole quote recommending their advice:
Many countries have recommended the use of fabric
masks/face coverings for the general public. At the present
time, the widespread use of masks by healthy people in the
community setting is not yet supported by high quality or
direct scientific evidence and there are potential benefits and
harms to consider (see below).
However, taking into account the available studies evaluating
pre- and asymptomatic transmission, a growing compendium
of observational evidence on the use of masks by the general
public in several countries, individual values and preferences,
as well as the difficulty of physical distancing in many
contexts, WHO has updated its guidance to advise that to
prevent COVID-19 transmission effectively in areas of
community transmission, governments should encourage the
general public to wear masks in specific situations and
settings as part of a comprehensive approach to suppress
SARS-CoV-2 transmission (Table 2)
Bottom line: there's no definitive proof yet that they make a MEANINGFUL, SUBSTANTIAL difference.
Asking, or worse requiring, everyone to wear masks based on the notion that "It might slightly reduce your chances of spreading or catching COVID-19", as WHO is doing here, is not very compelling.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/08/swedens-top-epidemiologist-see-no-point-wearing-masks/
He doesn't see a reason to mandate masks. I don't think we should mandate them, either. We should be smart enough to wear them for the short term without nanny daddy telling us to.
Utah's numbers also flattened out and started going back down after the mask mandate was put in place and most people started wearing them.
There are a bunch of new epidemiological studies that show a positive correlation of mask wearing to reduced spread. Sweden's "top-epidemiologist" is not the only one in town.
As I said, masks don't solve the actual problem, they just reduce the velocity and load of the problem in the short term.
grizzlyblake
08-21-20, 13:18
He doesn't see a reason to mandate masks. I don't think we should mandate them, either. We should be smart enough to wear them for the short term without nanny daddy telling us to.
Utah's numbers also flattened out and started going back down after the mask mandate was put in place and most people started wearing them.
There are a bunch of new epidemiological studies that show a positive correlation of mask wearing to reduced spread. Sweden's "top-epidemiologist" is not the only one in town.
As I said, masks don't solve the actual problem, they just reduce the velocity and load of the problem in the short term.
How long is the short term though? At first it was what, fifteen days? We are on month six nearly at this point.
https://nypost.com/2020/08/19/swedens-tegnell-wearing-face-masks-may-be-very-dangerous/
Did you actually read the article? It is dangerous, not because the masks themselves are dangerous, but because they may and do lull people into a false sense of security and make us think the problem is solved. He also said (in the article)
“Face masks can be a complement to other things when other things are safely in place,” he said. “But to start with having face masks and then think you can crowd your buses or your shopping malls — that’s definitely a mistake.”
sidewaysil80
08-21-20, 13:20
Did you actually read the article? It is dangerous, not because the masks themselves are dangerous, but because they may and do lull people into a false sense of security and make us think the problem is solved. He also said (in the article)
“Face masks can be a complement to other things when other things are safely in place,” he said. “But to start with having face masks and then think you can crowd your buses or your shopping malls — that’s definitely a mistake.”
No I linked it based on the headline only
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 13:21
How long is the short term though? At first it was what, fifteen days? We are on month six nearly at this point.
Considering natural herd immunity would likely take over two years if we sustained peak infection levels I’d say without a vaccine this is going to be around for quite some time so buckle up.
How long is the short term though? At first it was what, fifteen days? We are on month six nearly at this point.
Where did you get the idea that 15 days is short term? And where did you get the idea that mask mandates have been around 6 months. Most places have only had mask mandates in place (for those that had them) maybe 3 months, and most less. I know in Utah I think they started in June or statewide in July.
"short term" is until we have a better idea on what to do about this. It probably goes into next year. It is not years long forever "new normal". That is "long term." And is ridiculous.
As I said, masks don't solve the actual problem, they just reduce the velocity and load of the problem in the short term.
If you believe this and I will assume that you do then all we’re really doing is lengthening the outbreak, correct?
Nightvisionary
08-21-20, 13:22
Is it mandated by your state? It is in Oregon it is. Businesses will get shut down if they don't comply with Democrat thuggery.
Quit arguing, guys. I got word that COVID will no longer be a threat as of November 4th.
Considering natural herd immunity would likely take over two years if we sustained peak infection levels I’d say without a vaccine this is going to be around for quite some time so buckle up.
And there is a lot of doubt that we'll get a vaccine similar to the polio or MMR or other long-term vaccines. I've read commentary by people working on vaccines that we may end up with something that works short term, like so-called "flu vaccines" but not a single (or short term regimen of shots) that provide long term or permanent immunity. Which is why I said earlier we may have to learn to live with it.
I ran into the local 5.11 store earlier today to grab a couple pairs of jeans. When I got to the jean rack and grabbed a couple pairs in my size a store employee approached me.
5.11: "Sir, do you have a mask?
Me: "No, sorry man, I don't."
5.11: "Our policy is that everyone must wear a mask."
Me: "Yeah, sorry, I don't have one on me."
5.11: "It's our corporate policy. I can't even ring you up unless you are wearing a mask."
Me: "Are you serious?"
5.11: "We have some that I could sell you if you want but you have to wear a mask."
Me: "Well, okay then, guess I'm not buying jeans today if you won't let me."
I put the jeans down and walked out.
I've been wearing their jeans since they came out, and I'm pretty surprised that they are taking a hard line on the mask wearing mandate. Sucks because I like their jeans, but not sure I will be spending any more money with them after that.
Anyone know of any other quality pants that fit like the 511 Defenderflex line?
Serious question, why didn’t you just pull your shirt up over your face like we all did when we were kids and somebody farted and it smelled bad. By all rights it’s just as effective as most mask people are wearing.
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 13:27
And there is a lot of doubt that we'll get a vaccine similar to the polio or MMR or other long-term vaccines. I've read commentary by people working on vaccines that we may end up with something that works short term, like so-called "flu vaccines" but not a single (or short term regimen of shots) that provide long term or permanent immunity. Which is why I said earlier we may have to learn to live with it.
Yep. At least there is starting to be some evidence coming out that points towards longer term immunity if infected but the cat has been let out of the bag and we let it get a nice head start before trying to get control of things so this is going to be a long term issue unless there are breakthroughs vaccine wise. One other plus side is our hospitals have much better PPE now and treatment seems to be more effective.
If you believe this and I will assume that you do then all we’re really doing is lengthening the outbreak, correct?
In some ways, yes, but it also allows us time by limiting the instantaneous level of cases to be more manageable. My wife works in an ICU and most of their Covid beds are filled and they have had to expand the covid bed count (beds where special precautions are taken etc). The overall rate in the state for ICU beds is back to what it was earlier in the spring and lower than the July spikes (which happened after things started opening up and before the mask requirements were made).
It is interesting that:
1) the "if it saves 1 life" rationale(masks, shut downs, and more) is mostly touted by the same group that uses that mantra on another topic we are all familiar with.
2) the people using the line in #1 keep changing their story.
Yep. At least there is starting to be some evidence coming out that points towards longer term immunity if infected but the cat has been let out of the bag and we let it get a nice head start before trying to get control of things so this is going to be a long term issue unless there are breakthroughs vaccine wise. One other plus side is our hospitals have much better PPE now and treatment seems to be more effective.
And we stop putting sick people in old folks' homes.
And yes they have learned a lot about treatment and how it is different than other forms of respiratory distress.
one problem is that the dumb democrats grabbed on to this and politicized it as a way to bludgeon Trump. Which got in the way of treatments, spreading of knowledge, etc.
The damage of mask wearing is going to greatly outweigh COVID in the long run.
Children are not getting healthy exposure to germs and their immune systems will not develop properly, will be a net negative long term.
Not to mention other developmental issues with infants not seeing facial features and characteristics.
One of the greatest gifts we inherited was the immune systems our ancestors gave us through surviving the plague, tons of corona viruses, flu’s, etc.
We are going to reverse that and hand down sh it immune systems to future generations. Not to mention other developmental issues, economic issues, etc.
What we now know about CV19, continuing the mask charade is foolish, go ahead and wear them if you like.
PracticalRifleman
08-21-20, 13:41
Sorry, I disagree. My wife is from Japan and we go there often (about every other year for about 3 weeks at a time). The country is no cleaner than any other 1st world country. Some areas are super clean, other areas are dirty. Just like here. And with their population density, you come into contact with people a lot, whether or not you want to. Riding trains and busses, which they do a lot more of than most of us, for example. You are often packed tight. Because of the population density and the urban-ness of the culture, they have MORE contact with each other.
Taking off your shoes to enter a home does little for virus compared to the masks. I am not convinced the population as a whole washes their hands that much more than we do in the US. Probably a little but not that would give close to 2 orders of magnitude lower death rate/case rate.
The major difference is the mask wearing, and a bunch of recent studies agree.
The studies can agree, but consensus doesn’t actually equate to efficacy. In fact most of the studies I’ve read state, “though the statistics don’t support this, we feel wearing a mask protects people” or some variation thereof. Many, many actually come to opposite conclusion that do have statistics that backup their claims that cloth masks and poor quality surgical masks being worn incorrectly increase risk. In fact, masks of any variety other than an N95 don’t “trap” droplets with virus attached to it but reduce the distance which droplets travel in air by between 1/3 and 2/3s.
If masks worked so well, ultimately, aren’t they simply delaying herd immunity? Seems the “flatten the curve” mantra was simply to save Covid striking during flu season. We are going to create that very situation this winter if we aren’t prudent.
Furthermore, the only study with any statistical relevancy suggests asymptomatic spread is not a thing. The asymptomatic positives are spreading dead rNA which absolutely cannot infect anybody.
But if we want to make comparisons from the US to other countries, the important thing to compare are the comorbidities and risk factors of the populous.
People want to lay attribution and feel as though they are “doing something” and that’s fine. If it suits you, do it. But mandates are stupid and so are companies that require masks and put their employees and customers in bad situations.
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Evel Baldgui
08-21-20, 13:42
I ran into the local 5.11 store earlier today to grab a couple pairs of jeans. When I got to the jean rack and grabbed a couple pairs in my size a store employee approached me.
5.11: "Sir, do you have a mask?
Me: "No, sorry man, I don't."
5.11: "Our policy is that everyone must wear a mask."
Me: "Yeah, sorry, I don't have one on me."
5.11: "It's our corporate policy. I can't even ring you up unless you are wearing a mask."
Me: "Are you serious?"
5.11: "We have some that I could sell you if you want but you have to wear a mask."
Me: "Well, okay then, guess I'm not buying jeans today if you won't let me."
I put the jeans down and walked out.
I've been wearing their jeans since they came out, and I'm pretty surprised that they are taking a hard line on the mask wearing mandate. Sucks because I like their jeans, but not sure I will be spending any more money with them after that.
Anyone know of any other quality pants that fit like the 511 Defenderflex line?
AMAZON.COM. I don't recall the last time I was in a retail store. Clothes,shoes, tech items, whatever, all delivered next day or within 2 days. Can order 90% of groceries delivered from local grocer (Publix) but go anyway.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 13:43
He doesn't see a reason to mandate masks. I don't think we should mandate them, either. We should be smart enough to wear them for the short term without nanny daddy telling us to.
Utah's numbers also flattened out and started going back down after the mask mandate was put in place and most people started wearing them.
There are a bunch of new epidemiological studies that show a positive correlation of mask wearing to reduced spread. Sweden's "top-epidemiologist" is not the only one in town.
As I said, masks don't solve the actual problem, they just reduce the velocity and load of the problem in the short term.
So why has Spain and Belgium seeing a second wave along with the States that had strict lock down laws? The lock down just delayed the inevitable. (my band aid analogy)...all they did was hurt their economy and in the end, accomplished nothing. Protect the elderly and at-risk and chug on like normal. I said this from the very beginning.
grizzlyblake
08-21-20, 13:52
The damage of mask wearing is going to greatly outweigh COVID in the long run.
Children are not getting healthy exposure to germs and their immune systems will not develop properly, will be a net negative long term.
Not to mention other developmental issues with infants not seeing facial features and characteristics.
One of the greatest gifts we inherited was the immune systems our ancestors gave us through surviving the plague, tons of corona viruses, flu’s, etc.
We are going to reverse that and hand down sh it immune systems to future generations. Not to mention other developmental issues, economic issues, etc.
What we now know about CV19, continuing the mask charade is foolish, go ahead and wear them if you like.
I've heard some scuttlebutt about how it is making human trafficking, mainly children, much easier.
My wife was telling me that a friend of hers recently went on a trip with her family, flew out of ATL. At the TSA security checkpoint the people didn't require the children to remove their masks for identification. The lady was thinking that she could be carrying any kids onto the plane and nobody would be able to identify them or see facial expressions.
I agree with you about the immune issue. I have a two year old son who has not been exposed to any kinds of normal kid sicknesses at all because he's just home with mom and brother all day.
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 14:06
So why has Spain and Belgium seeing a second wave along with the States that had strict lock down laws? The lock down just delayed the inevitable. (my band aid analogy)...all they did was hurt their economy and in the end, accomplished nothing. Protect the elderly and at-risk and chug on like normal. I said this from the very beginning.
Over half of the population in the US is at-risk. How do you protect that many people? Especially when a large number of those people need to go to work so they can live. I mean, I guess we could take the most basic of precautions like staying home while sick, washing our hands, and wearing a face covering when in close contact with others. Nah, that’s not right, let’s just say we should protect them and do nothing different.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 14:10
Over half of the population in the US is at-risk. How do you protect that many people? Especially when a large number of those people need to go to work so they can live. I mean, I guess we could take the most basic of precautions like staying home while sick, washing our hands, and wearing a face covering when in close contact with others. Nah, that’s not right, let’s just say we should protect them and do nothing different.
If that were true, the death rate wouldn't be as low as it is. You are making up stats.
sandsunsurf
08-21-20, 14:12
Two things:
OP don’t you qualify for ExpertVoice? Much cheaper than the 5.11 store; and nope there are NO other jeans that are as awesome as the defenderflex.
Second, Chadbag and Mozart get it. They are both posting truths, not hyperbole. Thank you both for taking the time to write out the posts. I hope other M4C’ers will try and educate themselves based on your posts instead of instinctively arguing.
There are scientific studies that prove masks help, especially with both parties wearing even surgical masks and there are anecdotal stories that show they work. If you want an analogy to picture in your head, here’s one I came up with for an anti-masker I work with that is always on the rant that the virus is smaller than the holes in the mask (ignoring that the virus doesn’t just float around naked, it’s actually in a suspension of fluid): does your screen door give holes bigger than water? Of course it does, but if you turn your hose on and spray it at the screen door to get your kid wet, does it go through? Not very well, most gets rejected and it doesn’t go far past the screen. If the kid was behind a second screen door six feet away, would ~any~ water get to him? Not much. So two people wearing masks really DOES stop a large amount of the virus from getting into your mucus membranes and respiratory system. And as we all know, the lower the amount of virus you are exposed to at a given time the greater chance of your immune system killing those virus without being “programmed” for that specific virus response.
If we all wore masks in places like movie theaters, planes, public transportation, casinos, gyms and when possible at restaurants and bars we could have a much faster economic recovery. If Trump would have said from the beginning “wearing a mask is the patriotic thing to do, help us all be a stronger, united America” then we would not be having these silly arguments. It’s a huge bummer that this became political based upon changing opinions in the beginning, based upon lack of knowledge about the virus.
There are scientific studies that prove masks help
Absolutely false. Reread my post from WHO.
LMT Shooter
08-21-20, 14:17
I have no problem with anyone who chooses to wear a mask, but I have a problem with being mandated to wear a mask. We've been dealing with communicable diseases for decades without any of this nonsense, and the numbers for Coronavirus deaths are not far removed from influenza, IMHO.
Do masks save lives that would otherwise be lost to COVID-19? Probably, but masks would likely have the same effect for influenza, which kills (according to the CDC) 30,000-80,000 Americans every year. And there's a vaccine for influenza, which keeps deaths down, so it would kill more, maybe hundreds of thousands more, if we had no vaccine.
FFS, we can't get male homosexuals to stop having unprotected sex & IV drug users to stop sharing needles. If we did, the spread of HIV in the US would stop completely, again, this is from the CDC.
I have no problem with anyone who chooses to wear a mask, but I have a problem with being mandated to wear a mask.
THIS!!!
Why do we lower the bar to make the dumbest asses feel safe? EFF THAT!!
LMT Shooter
08-21-20, 14:24
If we all wore masks in places like movie theaters, planes, public transportation, casinos, gyms and when possible at restaurants and bars we could have a much faster economic recovery.
The fastest way to economic recovery is to do nothing, and let the virus run it's course. To say otherwise is false. Herd immunity is the only thing that will do any good, and the only 2 ways for that to happen are exposure to the virus or a vaccine. If not for all the lockdown stuff, we'd possibly be done with this outbreak.
LMT Shooter
08-21-20, 14:28
THIS!!!
Why do we lower the bar to make the dumbest asses feel safe? EFF THAT!!
We've been doing that for decades with gun control, it's what happens when those who value safety above freedom are allowed to have a voice.
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 14:36
If that were true, the death rate wouldn't be as low as it is. You are making up stats.
36.5% of adults are obese, another 32.5% are overweight. 10.5% of the population has diabetes. 45.6% of the population has high blood pressure. Close to 40% of the population is in the age range that puts them at higher risk. Then there are the people who have/had cancer, kidney disease, COPD, other heart conditions, are in an immunocompromised state, smoke, etc. Sure there’s going to be some overlap in those groups but you are kidding yourself if you don’t think most Americans are in the higher risk buckets.
But stop deflecting and tell me how we are going to protect those people.
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 14:38
The fastest way to economic recovery is to do nothing, and let the virus run it's course. To say otherwise is false. Herd immunity is the only thing that will do any good, and the only 2 ways for that to happen are exposure to the virus or a vaccine. If not for all the lockdown stuff, we'd possibly be done with this outbreak.
Herd immunity would take over two years if we sustained previously high levels of infection rates. Rates that were already putting a big strain on our healthcare system. Herd immunity without a vaccine and without overwhelming our healthcare system is going to take many years to accomplish.
I don’t get it.
Wearing a face covering is the easiest thing we can do to keep people healthy.
It’s pretty effective.
Why are people such stubborn pussies about masks? Wear the damn thing like a considerate responsible adult.
https://youtu.be/kYJvU81DKgkMy uncle's father-in-law is in his mid 70s and on chemo. He made an appointment at CVS to get tested. A little later on he decided against it, didn't want to chance it if he wasn't infected so he didn't go. A few days ago he go his test results back and he was positive!
A guy I used to work with just came back from Kiev Ukraine. Masks are mandatory by law but no one gives a shit. Some people wear them under their chin, some don't even bother. They have 2,200 deaths. If you don't want to believe them because eastern Europe then Sweden has 5,800 deaths out of 86,000 cases and they did not mandate masks or close anything down. In fact one hospital doctor was quoted as saying majority of those who died would have probably died this year anyway.
Most of our deaths have been senior citizens followed by people with serious medical conditions. 3 years ago we had 100k people die from the flu. This year we had 173k die from covid. Why didn't the 100k make the news 3 years ago and how many would have been saved if SICK seniors were NOT placed in nursing homes? And in at least one example a sick 21 year old felon placed in a nursing home to avoid infecting other inmates
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 14:44
36.5% of adults are obese, another 32.5% are overweight. 10.5% of the population has diabetes. 45.6% of the population has high blood pressure. Close to 40% of the population is in the age range that puts them at higher risk. Then there are the people who have/had cancer, kidney disease, COPD, other heart conditions, are in an immunocompromised state, smoke, etc. Sure there’s going to be some overlap in those groups but you are kidding yourself if you don’t think most Americans are in the higher risk buckets.
But stop deflecting and tell me how we are going to protect those people.
Again...the death rate stats say otherwise and trump anything you have because it is actual real data on real cases with real death rates. Who is really the one deflecting here?
LMT Shooter
08-21-20, 14:44
People can choose to protect themselves however they wish. Private businesses can mandate whatever they wish. Government can make whatever recommendations they feel appropriate. But I have the right to choose for myself if I want to follow the government recommendations or do business with a store that mandates masks.
LMT Shooter
08-21-20, 14:46
Herd immunity would take over two years if we sustained previously high levels of infection rates. Rates that were already putting a big strain on our healthcare system. Herd immunity without a vaccine and without overwhelming our healthcare system is going to take many years to accomplish.
Some epidemiologists say 6 months, there can never be a consensus when it's just estimates & opinions.
PracticalRifleman
08-21-20, 14:48
I’ve got it! We mandate healthy diets to fight the diabetes and cardiovascular disease pandemic! Think of all the lives saved! We can fine you $500 per double cheeseburger!
Every cigarette you smoke? That’s a fine. We will end vascular disease and COPD!
Then, we can make street drugs illegal and fine those that continue to use them! While we are at it, let’s make murder illegal!
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Diamondback
08-21-20, 14:52
My uncle's father-in-law is in his mid 70s and on chemo. He made an appointment at CVS to get tested. A little later on he decided against it, didn't want to chance it if he wasn't infected so he didn't go. A few days ago he go his test results back and he was positive!
Yeah, whole lotta that goin' around... I know other people, some who never even SIGNED UP for a test, who've had the same thing happen.
36.5% of adults are obese, another 32.5% are overweight. 10.5% of the population has diabetes. 45.6% of the population has high blood pressure. Close to 40% of the population is in the age range that puts them at higher risk. Then there are the people who have/had cancer, kidney disease, COPD, other heart conditions, are in an immunocompromised state, smoke, etc. Sure there’s going to be some overlap in those groups but you are kidding yourself if you don’t think most Americans are in the higher risk buckets.
But stop deflecting and tell me how we are going to protect those people.Sooooo....? I guess since we're not going to get rid of junk food and soda any time soon we will be in a permanent semi lockdown state? At what point do you say enough is enough? Even my dad who has heart failure among half a dozen other illnesses is sick of this. He stopped using hand sanitizer long ago and avoids masks as much as possible. Partially because he's tired of this BS and partially because he can't breathe in them, not even in the shitty blue ones
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Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 14:56
Again...the death rate stats say otherwise and trump anything you have because it is actual real data on real cases with real death rates. Who is really the one deflecting here?
Um you are? You’re the one saying we should protect at risk people and I’m the one asking how that would actually work.
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 15:01
Some epidemiologists say 6 months, there can never be a consensus when it's just estimates & opinions.
Basic math shows that six months is completely unrealistic. I did a rundown for Harris County in the COVID scientific thread where I was incredibly generous with my assumptions of asymptomatic people, the percent of the population needing to be infected to reach herd immunity, and a very high and sustained infection rate and it was over two years. Sweden should be able to show if that is indeed realistic or not at least.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 15:03
Um you are? You’re the one saying we should protect at risk people and I’m the one asking how that would actually work.
...and I am saying the real at-risk people are a lot lower than you are saying they are. Elevated risk is not part of the equation because by stats they aren't really affecting the death stats now are they?
Like many here are mentioning . It should be an individual choice. You don't feel comfortable going to work and such, stay home and deal with those consequences. If you do feel comfortable, then go ahead and deal with those consequences. Just don't think your priorities and what you think is worth/not worth risking aligns with everyone else's and if not, should be mandated to.
sandsunsurf
08-21-20, 15:10
The fastest way to economic recovery is to do nothing, and let the virus run it's course. To say otherwise is false. Herd immunity is the only thing that will do any good, and the only 2 ways for that to happen are exposure to the virus or a vaccine. If not for all the lockdown stuff, we'd possibly be done with this outbreak.
I mostly agree. We will all eventually be exposed and maybe get Covid (or vaccine) and need to for life to go on, but we risk overwhelming the healthcare system if we let it happen too fast. Masks are easy to wear and will very likely slow the spread and “flatten the curve” (I HATE that term). I would rather have businesses open and wear masks than continue crappy lockdowns and argue about masks’ efficacy.
I wore body armor 4 days a week for about 18 years of my career. I did it because it was easy enough to do to maybe protect myself by stopping some rounds over 20% of my body. Easily could have not worked, but “cheap insurance”. Mask is same, it’s dumb-easy to do and will maybe help you or others. Cheap insurance.
ETA: I’m also not in favor of a National mask mandate. I’ll say it again, it’s a bummer this became politicized. Now we may be at a point where all the stubborn anti-maskers might push us to a point where a mandate might occur.
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 15:11
...and I am saying the real at-risk people are a lot lower than you are saying they are. Elevated risk is not part of the equation because by stats they aren't really affecting the death stats now are they?
Like many here are mentioning . It should be an individual choice. You don't feel comfortable going to work and such, stay home and deal with those consequences. If you do feel comfortable, then go ahead and deal with those consequences. Just don't think your priorities and what you think is worth/not worth risking aligns with everyone else's and if not, should be mandated to.
So it’s not protect the at risk people then? Just trying to understand how we went from protect the at risk to if someone feels uncomfortable going to work/in public they should stay at home and deal with the consequences. Maybe you have some better data about what makes someone at risk, perhaps you should contact the CDC and let them know.
I don’t get it.
Wearing a face covering is the easiest thing we can do to keep people healthy.
It’s pretty effective.
Why are people such stubborn pussies about masks? Wear the damn thing like a considerate responsible adult.
https://youtu.be/kYJvU81DKgk
if they work why do they let convicts out of prison, have them wear one.
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 15:18
When did slow the spread become stop the spread?
My problem with mask mandates is most people wear non-medical masks myself included. They're often worn incorrectly, and people treat them like a piece of clothing instead of a contaminated piece of medical equipment. We have to wear them at work in common areas so Im forced to put it on and take it off constantly. When not worn it goes in my back pocket. Inside some controlled areas we have to use provided masks, and they're kept in a large zip lock bag numerous people are putting their hands in. So now I get to put something on my face stored in a communal bag people are contaminating.
Almost all of the info out there about masks is based on clinical settings where there are contamination controls, the masks are disposable, and people are trained in their use. I doubt there's any reliable data out there about home made masks or in use cases where untrained people are putting them on and taking them off constantly. If someone did come into contact with corona, and the mask did filter out the virus, how is a corona contaminated mask you handle with bare hands with no controls useful?
I'd also like to know why no one with authority seems to care about the mental effects of all this. Lots of younger people and people with kids are 'going crazy' dealing with all this when the death rates for people under 50 are miniscule. I've seen lots of people comment on suicides being way up. My county has had 35 covid deaths and 0.0% are 49 or under despite 20-29 grouping being by far the biggest positive case count contributor with 35.7%. 66.7% of the positive cases encompass that 0-49 age range but 0.0% of deaths. Statewide, deaths have been trending down to less than 1/5th what they were in late April despite us currently showing more new positive's in the last month per day than April. Overall in the state 0-49 account for 2.8% of deaths. I believe those were mostly immunocompromised people already dealing with a severe disease.
IMO a far more effective approach would have been to seal off nursing homes, and elderly people in general like a bubble. Instead of ruining people's businesses, lives, and treating schools like prisons walling off the elderly population early would have done far more to keep the death count down than anything. We already saw in Italy that it was mostly older people dying. Even as the data came in from the US early on everything was treated as a one size fits all situation. I've been telling people personally for a while now the only people who should be locked down are old people, sick people like cancer patients, and those that are around those people. The rest of us should have pushed through to get herd immunity and get things back to normal as soon as possible. Trying to stave off this virus with what we're forced to do now is a fools errand. How much money has been spent by government, and how much of the economy has been damaged/ruined when it would have been far cheaper to lock nursing homes down and put employees in a bubble with them. You could easily find CNA's and nurses willing to do that for months if needed and pay them 5X their normal rate plus some other perks.
Now the local university is going around suspending students for parties or other prohibited activities when we haven't had a single death in those kid's age range in a county of well over 100k people, and a transient student population in the tens of thousands. Its absurd, and tyrannical at this point. The whole slow the spread to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed quickly turned into authoritarian power grabs and abuse of office. We are under 5% of ICU bed usage for COVID with 65% not being used at all. If they would have told people in March the economy was going to be sabotaged with no end in sight and your kids would be in a prison like atmosphere in August people would have rightfully flipped the **** out. Instead the masses had to get eased into it, and months of MSM propaganda fear tactics helped lube up the tyranny. Meanwhile, none of the horrible 'mistakes' like Cuomo killing over 10k people even get mentioned outside of a few right wing sites, and he gets propped up like a ****ing Saint.
Adrenaline_6
08-21-20, 15:19
So it’s not protect the at risk people then? Just trying to understand how we went from protect the at risk to if someone feels uncomfortable going to work/in public they should stay at home and deal with the consequences. Maybe you have some better data about what makes someone at risk, perhaps you should contact the CDC and let them know.
That would be the CDC's job. What I do know is that you don't know either because it isn't half the population like you mentioned. The stats obviously don't support this, which is what I said about your statement from the get go.
Airborne droplets aren’t the same thing as an airborne pathogen.
Masks catch a decent amount of droplets that we breathe out, not just sneezing or coughing. Ever see your breath when it’s cold out?
It’s not asking much. No sympathy, wear a mask.
Lol..... no.
You can take that mask and shove it
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THIS!!!
Why do we lower the bar to make the dumbest asses feel safe? EFF THAT!!
This whole thing is oriented to dumb asses. Even the WHO document has this ridiculous BS, I almost can't believe they put this in there. So for much "we do everything based on science and data." The hell we do, this entire thing is political outside of specialized settings and equipment (hospitals, nursing homes, actual medical masks, etc.).
From the same WHO document earlier, here's their entire listing on the benefits of wearing masks for the public. Notice: the first benefit is only 'potential' and unproven--the one you care about, like, does the mask actually make any difference. Unknown! Then look at all the other 'benefits', they're all about social control, social compliance, and feel good because you're obeying Uncle Sugar and 'doing the right thing.' What a load of horse s##t.
Potential benefits/advantages
The likely advantages of the use of masks by healthy people
in the general public include:
• reduced potential exposure risk from infected persons
before they develop symptoms;
• reduced potential stigmatization of individuals wearing
masks to prevent infecting others (source control) or of
people caring for COVID-19 patients in non-clinical
settings;(70)
• making people feel they can play a role in contributing to
stopping spread of the virus;
• reminding people to be compliant with other measures
(e.g., hand hygiene, not touching nose and mouth).
However, this can also have the reverse effect (see
below);
• potential social and economic benefits. Amidst the
global shortage of surgical masks and PPE, encouraging
the public to create their own fabric masks may promote
individual enterprise and community integration.
Moreover, the production of non-medical masks may
offer a source of income for those able to manufacture
masks within their communities. Fabric masks can also
be a form of cultural expression, encouraging public
acceptance of protection measures in general. The safe
re-use of fabric masks will also reduce costs and waste
and contribute to sustainability.
LMT Shooter
08-21-20, 15:35
Belmont, you are correct, so many people are talking about stopping the spread, and how not obeying lockdown procedures will make this last longer. Both are statements of ignorance, but widely believed. Nothing, not even a vaccine, will stop the spread, and the lockdown is slowing the natural development of herd immunity.
I'd also like to know what happened to 15-30 days of lockdown? We've given in to the phobia, and now Fauci has publicly stated that "we must never abandon the public health approach," referring to masks, social distancing, etc. At some point, we need to tell these pussies who are afraid of people not wearing masks to grow a set of balls.
MountainRaven
08-21-20, 15:35
The difference between obesity and heart disease and Covid-19 is...
There’s too much money to be made feeding people the foods that cause those diseases and too much money to be made treating them.
There’s no money to be made from treating Covid-19. You get it and then you recover or you die. Obesity and heart disease take years to kill you.
People can choose to protect themselves however they wish. Private businesses can mandate whatever they wish. Government can make whatever recommendations they feel appropriate. But I have the right to choose for myself if I want to follow the government recommendations or do business with a store that mandates masks.
This.
Lol..... no.
You can take that mask and shove it
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Ok, but then follow through and don’t step foot in a business that requires a mask. Allow businesses the same freedom to choose.
Basic math shows that six months is completely unrealistic. I did a rundown for Harris County in the COVID scientific thread where I was incredibly generous with my assumptions of asymptomatic people, the percent of the population needing to be infected to reach herd immunity, and a very high and sustained infection rate and it was over two years. Sweden should be able to show if that is indeed realistic or not at least.At risk people also vary. I now know of about a dozen people who got sick. Most are in their 60s. One was a 2 pack a day smoker for most of his life and he felt real sick for about 3 weeks. His description was it kept getting a little worse each day for about a week and a half then it got a little better each day for the next week and a half. No hospital.
Another would only use one light a day to light a cigarette. The rest were out by the previous cigarette until he went to bed. He smoked like that for 30 years. He's in his late 60s and didn't even know he was sick until his wife had mild symptoms and they both went to get tested.
A co-worker who's in his early 20s and his girlfriend had it. I don't know if he reads here or not and I'm not going to chance it except to say they're both in the very high risk category had mild symptoms. His lasted almost a week while hers were gone in less than 48 hours
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Have posted this before, but I keep a mask in my car and wear it ONLY because it's the required admission ticket to any local store or restaurant, by government/county health dept order in my area. All of them in my area will challenge you if not wearing a mask, because the .gov will shut them down if they don't. I don't believe the masks of the type we wear are effective, and I think the .gov forcing us to wear them is a complete joke, mostly for purposes of political control (to help make the populace unhappy so the Left can defeat Trump, and also as 'dry run' training for the Left to test the legal waters, and impose greater social controls in the future, based on 'public health concerns.' The courts have largely baptized their approach to masks, and I fully expect future governors and mayors to order gun bans based on same logic).
I comply only because (a) it doesn't cost that much, and (b) there are SOME local stores or restaurants I still want to get into, even though I mostly shop online.
People can choose to protect themselves however they wish. Private businesses can mandate whatever they wish. Government can make whatever recommendations they feel appropriate. But I have the right to choose for myself if I want to follow the government recommendations or do business with a store that mandates masks.Except that by in large stores here will not let you in without a mask unless you happen to sneak in. You will not buy anything essential without a mask. You might find the odd small business that doesn't care but chances are small they carry anything important. Maybe a bait and tackle store or a comic book store.
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Belmont31R
08-21-20, 15:49
Ok, but then follow through and don’t step foot in a business that requires a mask. Allow businesses the same freedom to choose.
I did exactly that before the county then state mandated masks. Ordered a pizza online, went to pick it up, and they told me I had to have a mask when I walked in. Told them I just had a pickup order that was ready and paid for. They wouldn't give me the food without a mask. Walked out, and called them from the parking lot to cancel the order and get my card refunded. Bunch of food the employees probably got to eat but didn't get paid for by a paying customer. A sub shop down the street got our business instead. We used to order from the pizza place once every couple of weeks but haven't been back since.
Absolutely false. Reread my post from WHO.
It is not absolutely false. As you yourself said, WHO is tainted. WHO is not a health organization, it is a political organization.
It’s pretty effective.
Yes, so effective in fact that the CDC, in no uncertain terms, says masks "may help".
That said I wear one without a fuss because:
A) Most State mandates are being enforced against the business license.
B) Corporate policy will be enforced against the poor kid who has to tell pissed off people to wear a mask all day.
C) Scaring boomers is getting close to elder abuse.
Why didn't the 100k make the news 3 years ago
It did actually. You can use your favorite search engine to find news reports (WaPo) etc. talking about the breaking of records with flu deaths in 2017-2018 season.
It is not absolutely false. As you yourself said, WHO is tainted. WHO is not a health organization, it is a political organization.
I ain't gonna defend the WHO--I hate their globalist asses and wouldn't trust them farther than I could throw them. But they *are* the gold standard of global pandemic fighting efforts as far as the world medical community is concerned. It is the doctors and scientists on their staff who are putting these materials together. If you want pretty much the best most authoritative summary on the state of the science and COVID fighting efforts from the globalist Left's point of view, you start by checking out WHO. And even they admit, they don't have proof, they actually don't even have any 'direct evidence' that masks of the type that 99% of us are wearing have any efficacy. There are studies that 'suggest', and there are studies that don't. That's it. They don't know, and they're admitting it.
Over 6 months now and still no worse then the flu unless you're over 50. Even then who knows due to any death seems to get a covid label.
I think this kind of mask behavior is silly.
But I also think your ignorance is showing, you clearly have not been around people who have gotten it. I've had a friend younger than I get and one thing is very clear it's not just the flu.
He detected it early, responded immediately and still had overnight in the hospital. It knocked him on his butt for 3 weeks.
For what it's worth he never felt like he had the flu, just a bad head cold. But it's when you can't breathe that it.
I pretty much tune people out as soon as they start with the "it's just a flu bit". Likewise when they say people are calling it a covid-19 so they (hospitals) can get more money.
It did actually. You can use your favorite search engine to find news reports (WaPo) etc. talking about the breaking of records with flu deaths in 2017-2018 season.You mean back then? Yes I heard a news clip here back then. It was all of 30 seconds saying something to the effect of this has been a bad flu season people should be careful!
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Ok, but then follow through and don’t step foot in a business that requires a mask. Allow businesses the same freedom to choose.
I’m not opposed to businesses having the freedom to discriminate patrons. But you’re not going to like where that ends.
In any case imagine being such a coward that you become the kind of person who kowtows to government sensationalized fear via blind obedience, completely disavowing personal choice and then having the audacity to demand others curb their behavior for simply existing all because of contextless fear.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200821/d19d4d82756d411879d3e8219648901a.jpg
Nobody’s saying don’t take reasonable precautions if you’re at risk... but beyond that the behavior of others is none of your damn business.
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I think this kind of mask behavior is silly.
But I also think your ignorance is showing, you clearly have not been around people who have gotten it. I've had a friend younger than I get and one thing is very clear it's not just the flu.
He detected it early, responded immediately and still had overnight in the hospital. It knocked him on his butt for 3 weeks.
For what it's worth he never felt like he had the flu, just a bad head cold. But it's when you can't breathe that it.
I pretty much tune people out as soon as they start with the "it's just a flu bit". Likewise when they say people are calling it a covid-19 so they (hospitals) can get more money.I know of several people in their late 60s and life long heavy smokers carrying a few extra pounds. One didn't know he was sick. One was sick for 3 weeks but it slowly got worse for week and half and then slowly got better for the next week and half
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You mean back then? Yes I heard a news clip here back then. It was all of 30 seconds saying something to the effect of this has been a bad flu season people should be careful!
Of course back then. Why would they be running 2-3 year old news now.
News about record breaking flu deaths was reported then. You had asked why it didn't make the news then and I showed it did.
Uhm, yes.
You going to go around and physically make people do your bidding because you’re scared?
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Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 16:17
At risk people also vary. I now know of about a dozen people who got sick. Most are in their 60s. One was a 2 pack a day smoker for most of his life and he felt real sick for about 3 weeks. His description was it kept getting a little worse each day for about a week and a half then it got a little better each day for the next week and a half. No hospital.
Another would only use one light a day to light a cigarette. The rest were out by the previous cigarette until he went to bed. He smoked like that for 30 years. He's in his late 60s and didn't even know he was sick until his wife had mild symptoms and they both went to get tested.
A co-worker who's in his early 20s and his girlfriend had it. I don't know if he reads here or not and I'm not going to chance it except to say they're both in the very high risk category had mild symptoms. His lasted almost a week while hers were gone in less than 48 hours
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I never will say that being at risk means death sentence so it’s not exactly surprising to know people in less than stellar shape survive. I know someone who has all sorts of health issues ranging from cancer to kidney issues and he got through it without being hospitalized. I also know a younger guy in great shape who was hospitalized and then sent home with oxygen. I also know someone who died a day after getting his test results, which took over seven days.
The thing I’m most focused on is hospitalizations because that’s what strains our healthcare system and causes non-emergency procedures to be put on hold. In my local area we saw a large spike in hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and people on vents before they closed bars again and enforced mask use. Then all those things declined. Prior to the decline the issue was having an adequate number of healthcare providers to help and they were actually bringing in doctors and nurses to assist. That’s what isn’t sustainable and at the infection rate we were seeing then, while making the assumption that for only 1/10 infections was actually tested and the other 9 were asymptomatic or symptoms were low enough to avoid testing, it would still take years to reach herd immunity. Case numbers and hospitalizations are highly correlated and if that case rate was sustained we would absolutely have issues at the healthcare system level.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-21-20, 16:17
I'm not a huge mask fan, but if a private business says 8 must wear green shoes to enter, I either wear green shoes or shop elsewhere. Free country and all.
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 16:19
I know of several people in their late 60s and life long heavy smokers carrying a few extra pounds. One didn't know he was sick. One was sick for 3 weeks but it slowly got worse for week and half and then slowly got better for the next week and half
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The reality is they may have just had a common cold. SARS-2 shares a similar enough base makeup as many other corona viruses they will so anyone with a number of other cold viruses will pop hot on a test kit. Theres no way to mass test for the exact virus you're infected with. So now colds will disappear and get counted as a positive COVID case. The good news is that similarity with common cold corona viruses will also give some immunity to SARS2.
Even flu tests are a/b tests and not an exact strain test.
My sister went to Port A & stayed in a beach house with two other families & everyone ended up catching accept her (got tested 3x) even while taking care of my BIL & two kids...everyone had varying degrees of symptoms & all said it was different but similar & no worse than the Flu.
Pretty sure my crew had it back in March but have no way to verify being so early but we had all the symptoms...I never caught a fever like the girls & it sucked, but no big deal. Mom had it last month at 75 & the mild symptoms lasted 3 weeks. It's a strange cootie but not worthy of being called a pandemic with the death rate below 1%. Hate the masks!! It's my job to protect me & my family, not the publics.
Double tap...not sure why my pc is doing this regularly??
Of course back then. Why would they be running 2-3 year old news now.
News about record breaking flu deaths was reported then. You had asked why it didn't make the news then and I showed it did.It wasn't front and center for months. It was a few second blurb on local news on one evening. Wasn't forced to wear masks, close down or do anything out of the ordinary
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Belmont31R
08-21-20, 16:37
I never will say that being at risk means death sentence so it’s not exactly surprising to know people in less than stellar shape survive. I know someone who has all sorts of health issues ranging from cancer to kidney issues and he got through it without being hospitalized. I also know a younger guy in great shape who was hospitalized and then sent home with oxygen. I also know someone who died a day after getting his test results, which took over seven days.
The thing I’m most focused on is hospitalizations because that’s what strains our healthcare system and causes non-emergency procedures to be put on hold. In my local area we saw a large spike in hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and people on vents before they closed bars again and enforced mask use. Then all those things declined. Prior to the decline the issue was having an adequate number of healthcare providers to help and they were actually bringing in doctors and nurses to assist. That’s what isn’t sustainable and at the infection rate we were seeing then, while making the assumption that for only 1/10 infections was actually tested and the other 9 were asymptomatic or symptoms were low enough to avoid testing, it would still take years to reach herd immunity. Case numbers and hospitalizations are highly correlated and if that case rate was sustained we would absolutely have issues at the healthcare system level.
Except that now, at least for my county and state, the positive cases are higher than they were in March/April/June but deaths per day are a fraction of what they were. If all this data could be overlaid positive tests would be as high as they've ever been in the last few weeks while deaths, admissions, and ICU bed usage are all down.
Theres also going to be no way to know how many delayed procedures to identify and treat other diseases will lead to deaths. My wife went through breast cancer treatment in the last half of 2018 and first half of 2019. That included getting diagnosed, months of chemo, surgery, and 6 weeks of radiation. When they did the dissection of the tissue from her surgery they found one lymph node with contained cancer cells. The diagnosis and treatment would have been delayed because of COVID, and instead of that one lymph node containing the cancer cells it would have likely burst and become stage 4 instead of what she was diagnosed at which was stage 2. The dissection report said the node was bulging so it was caught barely in time.
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titsonritz
08-21-20, 16:41
5.11 isn't the only place that will throw your ass out for not wearing a mask.
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 16:43
It wasn't front and center for months. It was a few second blurb on local news on one evening. Wasn't forced to wear masks, close down or do anything out of the ordinary
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I don't even remember it at all and barely remember Swine Flu despite 65 million people getting it, and a death rate for adolescents associated with H1N1 far worse than this.
36.5% of adults are obese, another 32.5% are overweight. 10.5% of the population has diabetes. 45.6% of the population has high blood pressure. Close to 40% of the population is in the age range that puts them at higher risk. Then there are the people who have/had cancer, kidney disease, COPD, other heart conditions, are in an immunocompromised state, smoke, etc. Sure there’s going to be some overlap in those groups but you are kidding yourself if you don’t think most Americans are in the higher risk buckets.
But stop deflecting and tell me how we are going to protect those people.
A good portion of those problems are self-induced.
36.5% of adults want to be fat tubs of shit so be it, don’t make me change for their inability to maintain a healthy weight
I never will say that being at risk means death sentence so it’s not exactly surprising to know people in less than stellar shape survive. I know someone who has all sorts of health issues ranging from cancer to kidney issues and he got through it without being hospitalized. I also know a younger guy in great shape who was hospitalized and then sent home with oxygen. I also know someone who died a day after getting his test results, which took over seven days.
The thing I’m most focused on is hospitalizations because that’s what strains our healthcare system and causes non-emergency procedures to be put on hold. In my local area we saw a large spike in hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and people on vents before they closed bars again and enforced mask use. Then all those things declined. Prior to the decline the issue was having an adequate number of healthcare providers to help and they were actually bringing in doctors and nurses to assist. That’s what isn’t sustainable and at the infection rate we were seeing then, while making the assumption that for only 1/10 infections was actually tested and the other 9 were asymptomatic or symptoms were low enough to avoid testing, it would still take years to reach herd immunity. Case numbers and hospitalizations are highly correlated and if that case rate was sustained we would absolutely have issues at the healthcare system level.I have a ER nurse living a few houses down. He works night shifts. Last month I ran into him and asked how the hospitals were doing. He said.... very busy, has been very busy but just about everyone is a senior citizen
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The reality is they may have just had a common cold. SARS-2 shares a similar enough base makeup as many other corona viruses they will so anyone with a number of other cold viruses will pop hot on a test kit. Theres no way to mass test for the exact virus you're infected with. So now colds will disappear and get counted as a positive COVID case. The good news is that similarity with common cold corona viruses will also give some immunity to SARS2.
Even flu tests are a/b tests and not an exact strain test.In that case all....or almost none of these deaths could be covid
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You going to go around and physically make people do your bidding because you’re scared?
I was referring to the part you quoted about the "Airborne droplets aren’t the same thing as an airborne pathogen. / Masks catch a decent amount of droplets that we breathe out, not just sneezing or coughing. Ever see your breath when it’s cold out?". Your "lol no" was part of that quote and that is what I thought you were "no"-ing.
I am not advocating forced mask wearing and have stated multiple times that while I think people should wear masks, I am not in favor of mask mandates.
And no, I am not scared (about Covid at least -- I am scared of the thought of the Democrats stealing the election).
Averageman
08-21-20, 16:58
I'm not sure how I feel about this whole thing other than, it seems wildly overblown to me, but having said that, no one in my family has had it.
People like to say, "Just wear a mask you selfish Bastards" but I'm going to tell you, that can be very physically difficult for some people and I am one of them. I kind of understand peoples fears, but really? Do you really have to be rude about it?
I have noticed that people have become more short tempered and less patient to the point of rudeness and I don't mind calling them out on it either. It's been eye opening just what a bunch of assholes are walking around us every day. I would hate to deal with any of these guys in a real emergency.
Life's a Hillary
08-21-20, 16:59
Except that now, at least for my county and state, the positive cases are higher than they were in March/April/June but deaths per day are a fraction of what they were. If all this data could be overlaid positive tests would be as high as they've ever been in the last few weeks while deaths, admissions, and ICU bed usage are all down.
Theres also going to be no way to know how many delayed procedures to identify and treat other diseases will lead to deaths. My wife went through breast cancer treatment in the last half of 2018 and first half of 2019. That included getting diagnosed, months of chemo, surgery, and 6 weeks of radiation. When they did the dissection of the tissue from her surgery they found one lymph node with contained cancer cells. The diagnosis and treatment would have been delayed because of COVID, and instead of that one lymph node containing the cancer cells it would have likely burst and become stage 4 instead of what she was diagnosed at which was stage 2. The dissection report said the node was bulging so it was caught barely in time.
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Yeah you can certainly have a change in what looks to be the relationship between hospitalizations and cases depending on changes in testing. If an area is able to increase testing capacity then I would expect cases to go up in general. If you’re at the same testing capacity then we’d be looking at apples to apples.
I don’t want that technicality, and data issue, to take away from my main point that straining the hospital system is what we need to avoid. Your wife’s treatment is a perfect example of why this is so important. People have not been able to have procedures done when the hospitals here were getting hit hard and that can cause lots of long term damage. I know of multiple people who have been diagnosed with cancer recently because they were able to get a procedure deemed “non-emergency” now that they can get those procedures done. Who knows how many people have been missed. Also, when the hospital system was strained the doctors who made those diagnoses were stuck working with COVID patients because there was such a lack of doctors to do that work.
The reality is they may have just had a common cold. SARS-2 shares a similar enough base makeup as many other corona viruses they will so anyone with a number of other cold viruses will pop hot on a test kit. Theres no way to mass test for the exact virus you're infected with. So now colds will disappear and get counted as a positive COVID case. The good news is that similarity with common cold corona viruses will also give some immunity to SARS2.
Even flu tests are a/b tests and not an exact strain test.
This is interesting actually. My wife was reading Japanese twitter and some scientists there are positing that the flu and Covid "immunity" may be interlinked. In Japan, a year and a half ago they had 3000 deaths (roughly) from flu. The next flu season overlapped with Covid and they had about 1000 flu deaths and 1000 covid deaths. They were were speculating that this coming year's flu season may be milder due to Covid. Flu immunity from past flu suffering may help a person not get Covid, and vice versa. I incidentally heard a similar report somewhere (did not save the link) at about the same time in a English language news report.
while I think people should wear masks, I am not in favor of mask mandates.
Clear on where you're coming from, and it's not an unreasonable position. But I'm unconvinced that--outside of hospitals, nursing homes, and other specialized settings where wearing a MEDICAL quality N95 makes sense, that there's any efficacy in the general public wearing improvised masks made of whatever fabric.
What is the strongest evidence you have seen that convinced you that the general public, wearing improvised cloth masks, will have any significant impact on reducing transmission?
if they work why do they let convicts out of prison, have them wear one.
Yeah that question frustrates a lot of the believers.
PracticalRifleman
08-21-20, 17:02
The reality is they may have just had a common cold. SARS-2 shares a similar enough base makeup as many other corona viruses they will so anyone with a number of other cold viruses will pop hot on a test kit. Theres no way to mass test for the exact virus you're infected with. So now colds will disappear and get counted as a positive COVID case. The good news is that similarity with common cold corona viruses will also give some immunity to SARS2.
Even flu tests are a/b tests and not an exact strain test.
As I understand it, this is false. An infectious disease physician I know stated that the difficulty developing reliable testing in bulk was that if had to be distinguishable from other coronavirus strains; otherwise we could have just used a standard respiratory PCR that detects other coronavirus strains.
So the likelihood of a different strand testing positive for COVID-19 is very unlikely.
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I am not sure how I got on Gary Bauer's dailing mailing list (been on it for years -- back when I was more active in business I got subscribed to all sorts of lists). Anyway, a few days ago he had a column about "Media Malfeasance" dealing with facts about Covid vs what people believe
Media Malfeasance
When it comes to Covid-19 -- perhaps the single most important public health, public policy, economic issue of the past six months -- the media are grossly failing in their obligation to report the facts. Instead, they have given Americans a daily diet of fear and hysteria.
And it is obvious because what most people think they know about the coronavirus is completely wrong.
Researchers at Franklin Templeton and Gallup recently teamed up to study "the behavioral response to the COVID-19 pandemic and implications for the recovery." Here are two key points they discovered:
"Americans still misperceive the risks of death from COVID-19 for different age cohorts—to a shocking extent."
"The misperception is greater for those who identify as Democrats, and for those who rely more on social media for information."
Now, here are the specific findings:
Most Americans believe that people over 55 account for half of all COVID-19 deaths. The actual figure is 92%.
Americans believe that people under 45 account for 30% of total deaths. The actual figure is 2.7%.
Americans grossly overestimate the risk of death for those under 25 by a factor of 50. Conversely, they seriously underestimate the risk for those 65 and older. They think it is just 40% when it is in fact 80%.
Here's more analysis from the Franklin Templeton-Gallup report:
"The discrepancy with the actual mortality data is staggering: for people aged 18–24, the share of those worried about serious health consequences is 400 times higher than the share of total COVID deaths; for those age 25–34 it is 90 times higher."
It's difficult to fathom how so many people could be so confused. But this is what happens when progressive politicians and their left-wing media allies insist that kids can't go to school and churches must be closed while we ignore the unforgiveable disaster that took place in New York's nursing homes.
Don't dismiss this study as a fluke. We have reported on other research finding similar results, including one survey that found most Americans believed that 9% of the country – roughly 30 million people – had died from Covid. That's nearly 200 times the number of confirmed deaths.
The Facts
Based on figures released by the Covid Tracking Project:
406 people died from Covid-19 on Monday. Monday figures are always low, but that was the lowest number of deaths since mid-July.
At the peak of the virus in April, the daily death total was more than 2,400. So Monday's figure was 83% below the peak death totals.
Daily hospitalizations were at their lowest level since early July.
More than two dozen states appear to have a declining number of cases. More states are plateauing and will likely see their numbers decline. Only eight states appear to be "hot spots," reporting more than 1,000 new daily cases.
Regardless of what has been tried by various governors and the CDC, the virus seems to have a "mind of its own." It spreads into a geographic area, infects certain people, most of whom have mild cases, and then runs its course.
Some experts now believe that the threshold for herd immunity may be as low as 50% or less, potentially ending the pandemic much sooner than originally thought.
Just days ago, virtually every headline was about how the disease was out of control. A Federal Reserve Bank president, who presumably understands the economic consequences, called for another six-week shutdown of the economy. That would be disastrous.
Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-science. Covid-19 is a very infectious disease that can be serious for some people. But one way or another, either through herd immunity, a vaccine or both, the virus will essentially go away.
Life will never be risk free. Every choice has consequences and potential risks. Life is about balancing those risks, and life must go on.
My county has a mandate for masks threatening fines and jail time for not wearing one anywhere in public. I haven't worn a mask since the start of all this bullshit, nor will I. And when I go out, if I get confronted by stores management I just use the county's exemption excuse for health, religion etc for myself and my kid, they can't ask what the issue is so ****'em, I'll use their dumb rules against them. If they persist, I leave and do business elsewhere, etc.
Yesterday I had some old bitch confront me about masks being mandatory to be in the grocery store, just kept walking past her, she almost threw herself into the shelves of chips to keep her magic 6 feet and scurried away. My boy and I continued our shopping, and went to self checkout where she was waiting to point us out. I ring up my items, pay and go to leave and have an employee approach me, "excuse me sir, you need to be wearing a mask..." I reply, "exemptions", she said "oh have a good day sir" and went over to tell the woman, "he has an exemption", the look of defeat in her eyes was priceless.
Mind your own ****ing business, we can all make our own choices. I'm not going to stop living my life, lock myself away or play by other peoples rules to make them feel better. If I thought any of this was a threat to myself or my family, I'd do things differently, but my way, I do not care about anybody else's issues.
Except that now, at least for my county and state, the positive cases are higher than they were in March/April/June but deaths per day are a fraction of what they were. If all this data could be overlaid positive tests would be as high as they've ever been in the last few weeks while deaths, admissions, and ICU bed usage are all down.
Theres also going to be no way to know how many delayed procedures to identify and treat other diseases will lead to deaths. My wife went through breast cancer treatment in the last half of 2018 and first half of 2019. That included getting diagnosed, months of chemo, surgery, and 6 weeks of radiation. When they did the dissection of the tissue from her surgery they found one lymph node with contained cancer cells. The diagnosis and treatment would have been delayed because of COVID, and instead of that one lymph node containing the cancer cells it would have likely burst and become stage 4 instead of what she was diagnosed at which was stage 2. The dissection report said the node was bulging so it was caught barely in time.
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Being stupid hurts and the extended order effects of this MASSIVE retard circus are going to be far more substantial.
Big shout out to the mental troglodytes the nation over on this one
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Clear on where you're coming from, and it's not an unreasonable position. But I'm unconvinced that--outside of hospitals, nursing homes, and other specialized settings where wearing a MEDICAL quality N95 makes sense, that there's any efficacy in the general public wearing improvised masks made of whatever fabric.
What is the strongest evidence you have seen that convinced you that the general public, wearing improvised cloth masks, will have any significant impact on reducing transmission?
Even simple "surgical" masks and improvised cloth masks greatly diminish the projection of droplets. There are lots of videos out there that demonstrate this.
Japan and Hong Kong being two orders of magnitude (almost) of cases and deaths per capita. They are wearing surgical masks and improvised masks. not N95 or greater.
---
FWIW -- I only wear a mask for the minimum duration I need to in order to finish whatever business I am doing. I will put cloth masks into the wash at home and after a few uses throw away and replace the surgical masks. I do not stick them in my pocket, but rather stick them on the dash in the sun light (I know most car glass blocks most UV but a steady dose of sunlight while I am driving around, and the heating of the dash by the sunlight, helps keep them "fresher". I also walk with it in my hand exposing it to sunlight -- while outside walking. This also gives them a few to several minutes of UV -- and being high altitude we have more UV in our sunlight and it has been nice and sunny most of the summer).
When I first started wearing a mask in public buildings back in March (when hardly anyone was) I would spray it (both sides) with Lysol, getting it good and wet, when I came home. Until I ran out of Lysol. Luckily we have a good supply of surgical masks we got in Japan at some point in the distant past and my wife gets them at work and brings her unused ones home for our supply (otherwise she'd have to toss them since they are "issued" already and therefore "contaminated" and cannot go back into her unit's supply).
Well done Sir, last I checked they can’t require proof of medical exemptions.
Even simple "surgical" masks and improvised cloth masks greatly diminish the projection of droplets. There are lots of videos out there that demonstrate this.
Japan and Hong Kong being two orders of magnitude (almost) of cases and deaths per capita. They are wearing surgical masks and improvised masks. not N95 or greater.
I was sure hoping you were gonna' have something better evidentially. First of all, you mention surgical masks but that's not what most people are wearing. The question is about what evidence there is for reduced transmission of COVID-19 when using improvised cloth masks in public.
Second, using our Asian allies lower death rates does not prove that improvised cloth masks work. You are a smart guy, that's an honest compliment not being a smart-ass. And you know there are many, many factors or variables that differentiate those Asian countries from ours. A high percentage of mask wearing is one of those many variables. So when you have many possible variables between A and B, and you have different outcomes between A and B, it's not logically or scientifically valid to just assume--without any evidence--that one particular variable accounts for all or most of the difference. Because many of the other variables--alone or in combination--could be the reason for the different death rates. So that one, to me, would require more evidence to believe that improvised mask wearing by the public is the main (or, a key) contributor to their lower death rates.
Averageman
08-21-20, 17:40
Well done Sir, last I checked they can’t require proof of medical exemptions.
Its been my experience they will still refuse service to you, even if it is a valid disability.
Thought was 5.11 thread.
Now is mask thread.
Can't decide which is worse. :D
I was sure hoping you were gonna' have something better evidentially. First of all, you mention surgical masks but that's not what most people are wearing. The question is about what evidence there is for reduced transmission of COVID-19 when using improvised cloth masks in public.
Around here I see about 50% surgical masks (the blue sort) and about 50% other sorts of cloth masks. All block the expulsion of droplets over longer distances.
Additionally, while I did not mention it earlier, my wife pointed me to a test done in Japan with two layer "home made" cloth masks which showed similar efficacy to surgical masks, and when a single layer of paper towel was added between the layers of cloth, it raised it up to "N75+" in capability. This was something she pointed me to several months ago so I don't have the link.
The biggest thing is that both sorts of masks do a reasonable job at block expulsion of droplets by breathing, coughing, sneezing, etc out to any meaningful distance away.
Second, using our Asian allies lower death rates does not prove that improvised cloth masks work. You are a smart guy, that's an honest compliment not being a smart-ass. And you know there are many, many factors or variables that differentiate those Asian countries from ours. A high percentage of mask wearing is one of those many variables. So when you have many possible variables between A and B, and you have different outcomes between A and B, it's not logically or scientifically valid to just assume--without any evidence--that one particular variable accounts for all or most of the difference. Because many of the other variables--alone or in combination--could be the reason for the different death rates. So that one, to me, would require more evidence to believe that improvised mask wearing by the public is the main (or, a key) contributor to their lower death rates.
Some day we'll have all sorts of statisticians who will look at every known variable and write fancy papers about it. We don't have it, but we do have comparisons that help inform us of possible ways to mitigate while we are in the heat of the moment.
FACT: Japan is a first world country. Their lifestyles are similar to our lifestyles. They eat fast food, smoke (more than we do though it is going down closer to our level now), and are fat (not to the same extent we are). They wear similar clothes, go to similar jobs, drive similar cars. While they eat more fish than we do, and more "smelly" food like natto, and things like more seaweed and stuff, their diets are not radically different. I've been there many times and eaten at lots of McDonalds there (as well as their home grown variations on burgers and fast food), steakhouses, etc.
There are variables, but one of the biggest is the use of masks. We may be able to get more concrete statistical evidence at some point but it will take the data analysts and statisticians years to analyze and consider all the difference and similarities and account for them. Right now we have to look at the big picture -- we can't wait for all that work to be done as by then it will be too late. An almost two order of magnitude difference exists between these 1st world cultures (Japan, HK vs USA) and the simple differences wouldn't account for that big disparity.
The_War_Wagon
08-21-20, 18:10
Even SlowJoe remembers HIS mask! :rolleyes:
https://i.ibb.co/KbLZZq6/biden-wears-mask.jpg
5.11: "We have some that I could sell you if you want but you have to wear a mask."
ROFL.
Chase loyal, paying customers out of your store over a 25 cent mask you could give them for free.
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 18:26
I was sure hoping you were gonna' have something better evidentially. First of all, you mention surgical masks but that's not what most people are wearing. The question is about what evidence there is for reduced transmission of COVID-19 when using improvised cloth masks in public.
Second, using our Asian allies lower death rates does not prove that improvised cloth masks work. You are a smart guy, that's an honest compliment not being a smart-ass. And you know there are many, many factors or variables that differentiate those Asian countries from ours. A high percentage of mask wearing is one of those many variables. So when you have many possible variables between A and B, and you have different outcomes between A and B, it's not logically or scientifically valid to just assume--without any evidence--that one particular variable accounts for all or most of the difference. Because many of the other variables--alone or in combination--could be the reason for the different death rates. So that one, to me, would require more evidence to believe that improvised mask wearing by the public is the main (or, a key) contributor to their lower death rates.
The asians put in very good disease controls after their first run in with SARS1 over 15 years ago. They simply had the pre-existing systems and infrastructure in place to identify carriers and possible carriers then isolate them from the population. They also have the supplies stockpiled for medical personnel to be better protected than ours were. Aside from older people medical people were a great source of spread early on in the US.
Around here I see about 50% surgical masks (the blue sort) and about 50% other sorts of cloth masks. All block the expulsion of droplets over longer distances.
Additionally, while I did not mention it earlier, my wife pointed me to a test done in Japan with two layer "home made" cloth masks which showed similar efficacy to surgical masks, and when a single layer of paper towel was added between the layers of cloth, it raised it up to "N75+" in capability. This was something she pointed me to several months ago so I don't have the link.
The biggest thing is that both sorts of masks do a reasonable job at block expulsion of droplets by breathing, coughing, sneezing, etc out to any meaningful distance away.
Well it's intuitive that any barrier of any kind whatsoever--including a screen door--would have some effect in reducing at least some of the total volume of droplets we spew out regularly. But this is a far cry from definitive research showing that improvised masks are actually effective at reducing community transmission of COVID-19. They are definitely proven to help reduce the spread of some other kinds of disease, but the research support for COVID-19 has been lacking, from what I've read. I think if the medical community, and the Left, had such definitive proof, they'd be talking about it all over, publishing it on authoritative (to them) sites such as WHO and CDC, and shoving it up our noses every day, all day. The fact even their gospel truth sources, WHO and CDC, indicate the lack of definitive proof, is telling.
Some day we'll have all sorts of statisticians who will look at every known variable and write fancy papers about it. We don't have it, but we do have comparisons that help inform us of possible ways to mitigate while we are in the heat of the moment.
FACT: Japan is a first world country. Their lifestyles are similar to our lifestyles. They eat fast food, smoke (more than we do though it is going down closer to our level now), and are fat (not to the same extent we are). They wear similar clothes, go to similar jobs, drive similar cars. While they eat more fish than we do, and more "smelly" food like natto, and things like more seaweed and stuff, their diets are not radically different. I've been there many times and eaten at lots of McDonalds there (as well as their home grown variations on burgers and fast food), steakhouses, etc.
There are variables, but one of the biggest is the use of masks.
It seems that again, you just assume "one of the biggest" variables that's driving the different death rates is masks. How do you know that? I don't. I'm looking all over the place, everybody is really puzzled by why Japan, in particular, has very low death rates. It seems there's not a definitive answer yet. They have many factors that are different from us, they have even HIGHER population density, they have an OLDER population, and they were very lax in the early days of government lockdowns. They are defying all the conventional wisdom, and early on, were doing many of the 'wrong' things, acc to the medical establishment. Simply assuming that this is entirely or mostly because a higher % of them are now wearing masks than here, to me, is not convincing. There's an article here (https://www.embopress.org/doi/10.15252/emmm.202012481) talking about some of the possible reasons to explain their lower death rate, but the simple difference of higher mask use in public is not one of them. There are actually a host of possible explanations for the differing death rates in countries, to name just a few: differences in how deaths are tracked, attributed, and recorded; differences in demographics; differences in early responses to the disease; differences in % of travelers coming into countries from certain other highly infected places, early on. And this article (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-24/coronavirus-response-in-china-south-korea-italy-uk-us-singapore/12158504), from ABC news, suggests that the other Asian countries that have done well, including Korea, Taiwan, and HK, had one key factor in common: early and rigorous testing, and contact tracing. Regardless whether that ultimately turns out to be the largest contributor to their lower rates, the point is, there are really a ton of possible factors to account for the different death rates. I don't think anybody knows yet.
Trying to impose mask usage on Western countries based on such weak evidence, to me, doesn't make sense. Our efforts would better be focused on measures that we know do work, and get things reopened, while still protecting the most vulnerable populations. Ultimately I can't see any argument for lockdowns or masks for the general population, in the case of COVID-19. Lockdowns have not worked, masks are not proven to work. We should adapt, use proven measures, admit that we are going to have inevitable deaths, and get on with it. See: Sweden.
ETA: One of the best overviews of the available evidence, which includes evidence for whether masks and lockdown work, is the 2 short books by Alex Berenson on Amazon:
Unreported Truths about COVID-19 and Lockdowns: Part 1: Introduction and Death Counts and Estimates (https://www.amazon.com/Unreported-Truths-about-COVID-19-Lockdowns-ebook/dp/B089P216NP)
Unreported Truths about COVID-19 and Lockdowns: Part 2: Update and Examination of Lockdowns as a Strategy (https://www.amazon.com/Unreported-Truths-about-COVID-19-Lockdowns-ebook/dp/B08F7W9276)
Weird how nobody has given a damn about the flu or anything else previous since what 1918?
Weird....
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Belmont31R
08-21-20, 20:01
Weird how nobody has given a damn about the flu or anything else previous since what 1918?
Weird....
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Because Trump wasn't in office.
Eighty-seven percent of deaths occurred in those under 65 years of age with children and working adults having risks of hospitalization and death 4 to 7 times and 8 to 12 times greater, respectively, than estimates of impact due to seasonal influenza covering the years 1976-2001.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21342903/
He doesn't see a reason to mandate masks. I don't think we should mandate them, either. We should be smart enough to wear them for the short term without nanny daddy telling us to.
Utah's numbers also flattened out and started going back down after the mask mandate was put in place and most people started wearing them.
There are a bunch of new epidemiological studies that show a positive correlation of mask wearing to reduced spread. Sweden's "top-epidemiologist" is not the only one in town.
As I said, masks don't solve the actual problem, they just reduce the velocity and load of the problem in the short term.
Your entire post (except I know zero about Utah) mirrors my thinking.
I don't GAF if people wear a mask, but I REALLY don't GAF if someone's refusal to wear one causes them inconvenience.
If you won't wear a 10 cent mask, what the hell are buying pants for? Just walk around naked.
Andy
grizzlyblake
08-21-20, 20:31
Your entire post (except I know zero about Utah) mirrors my thinking.
I don't GAF if people wear a mask, but I REALLY don't GAF if someone's refusal to wear one causes them inconvenience.
If you won't wear a 10 cent mask, what the hell are buying pants for? Just walk around naked.
Andy
Nobody around here wears them. It’s just not a thing. In my small office of 15 people nobody wears them and we aren’t making it a thing. Restaurants every day at lunch, nobody wearing masks. Grocery store after work nobody has a mask. Gym, no masks.
I drove 20 min to 5.11 and they were full mandate. I don’t have any masks so I couldn’t put one on.
It just seemed excessive to run a paying customer out for not wearing a mask. Maybe if they were stopping people at the door or something, but I was already in the back of the store.
My question remains - if everyone else had a mask on, and they are deemed effective, what difference did it make for them whether I had a mask on or not. They were protected by their mask, right?
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 20:32
Your entire post (except I know zero about Utah) mirrors my thinking.
I don't GAF if people wear a mask, but I REALLY don't GAF if someone's refusal to wear one causes them inconvenience.
If you won't wear a 10 cent mask, what the hell are buying pants for? Just walk around naked.
Andy
Go re-read the 1st post of mine in this thread.
I don't really even care if masks work or not.
Vulnerable people should have been put in a bubble as soon as the evidence came out that elderly people were most at risk. The rest of us should have gone back to work and our lives.
0.0% of the people in my county of over 100k and tens of thousands of transient university students have died between the ages of 0-49.
The 2009 H1N1 flu epidemic had a much greater fatality rate in younger people, and especially the very young.
Over 60 million Americans are estimated to have contracted H1N1 that year.
Where were the lockdowns, mask mandates, and turning schools into prison like environments?
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Nobody around here wears them. It’s just not a thing. In my small office of 15 people nobody wears them and we aren’t making it a thing. Restaurants every day at lunch, nobody wearing masks. Grocery store after work nobody has a mask. Gym, no masks.
I drove 20 min to 5.11 and they were full mandate. I don’t have any masks so I couldn’t put one on.
It just seemed excessive to run a paying customer out for not wearing a mask. Maybe if they were stopping people at the door or something, but I was already in the back of the store.
My question remains - if everyone else had a mask on, and they are deemed effective, what difference did it make for them whether I had a mask on or not. They were protected by their mask, right?
I came across much more gruff and not nearly as funny as I intended.
IMHO, any store that requires masks should have a box of disposable masks to offer customers without one. Kinda shady they wouldn't sell you pants but would sell you a mask. They lost a sale because they would not hand you a 10 cent mask - idiots.
I took a quick trip across a half-dozen or so states in the last week and I realize that different regions have different levels of infection and, frankly, different levels of risk tolerance. I and my wife have been wearing masks pretty religiously on the trip because we are travelling 2000+ miles and I don't want to be a "patient zero".
The answer to your question is simply that both parties wearing masks is almost twice as effective as one party wearing a mask. It is a reduction strategy, not a cure-all.
I don't tell anyone to wear a mask (except at work, because they pay me) or give them the stink eye. If I see someone turn around at a store entrance because they don't have a mask, I offer one of the disposables I keep in each car/truck. We are all in this together and Covid is never going away.
Andy
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 20:59
I came across much more gruff and not nearly as funny as I intended.
IMHO, any store that requires masks should have a box of disposable masks to offer customers without one. Kinda shady they wouldn't sell you pants but would sell you a mask. They lost a sale because they would not hand you a 10 cent mask - idiots.
I took a quick trip across a half-dozen or so states in the last week and I realize that different regions have different levels of infection and, frankly, different levels of risk tolerance. I and my wife have been wearing masks pretty religiously on the trip because we are travelling 2000+ miles and I don't want to be a "patient zero".
The answer to your question is simply that both parties wearing masks is almost twice as effective as one party wearing a mask. It is a reduction strategy, not a cure-all.
I don't tell anyone to wear a mask (except at work, because they pay me) or give them the stink eye. If I see someone turn around at a store entrance because they don't have a mask, I offer one of the disposables I keep in each car/truck. We are all in this together and Covid is never going away.
Andy
Bold mine.
No we're not and 'never going away' defeats the entire rest of your post by itself.
I don’t get it.
Wearing a face covering is the easiest thing we can do to keep people healthy.
It’s pretty effective.
Why are people such stubborn pussies about masks? Wear the damn thing like a considerate responsible adult.
https://youtu.be/kYJvU81DKgk
Agreed.
Effective how, wearing a mask to protect against a non-airborne virus? You video shows a properly fitted/N95 mask. Everyone is wearing ill fitted jalopy surgical masks or cotton ones...point is moot.
Not true. A recent article in JAMA shows otherwise.
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 21:13
Not true. A recent article in JAMA shows otherwise.
So what's the end goal now that deaths are way down but positive cases are up? When can the masks come off and the economy can be fully functional again? When can kids go to school like kids and not penal inmates?
Whats the numbers and goals that open things back up?
ChattanoogaPhil
08-21-20, 21:21
Few wear masks or 'social distance'. From left-wing kook rioting anarchists to Trump supporters... forget about it.
Here's Trump visiting Pennsylvania the other day. No social distancing and few wearing a mask. America is way beyond the point of pretending that mitigation efforts will significantly impact the spread.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1296579488998928386?s=20
Bold mine.
No we're not and 'never going away' defeats the entire rest of your post by itself.
That's ridiculous - just like the Spanish Flu - we will build a tolerance, the virus will mutate, and we will learn more effective treatment. Even with a vaccine, it's not going away, any more than the flu has.
Andy
36.5% of adults are obese, another 32.5% are overweight. 10.5% of the population has diabetes. 45.6% of the population has high blood pressure. Close to 40% of the population is in the age range that puts them at higher risk. Then there are the people who have/had cancer, kidney disease, COPD, other heart conditions, are in an immunocompromised state, smoke, etc. Sure there’s going to be some overlap in those groups but you are kidding yourself if you don’t think most Americans are in the higher risk buckets.
But stop deflecting and tell me how we are going to protect those people.So you're telling me that I should do more to protect these people, because they don't like to live a healthy life to protect themselves?
So you're telling me that I should do more to protect these people, because they don't like to live a healthy life to protect themselves?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200822/784c76f2971f88c018018240669b6ed6.jpg
The mask will save her life.
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PracticalRifleman
08-21-20, 21:33
So what's the end goal now that deaths are way down but positive cases are up? When can the masks come off and the economy can be fully functional again? When can kids go to school like kids and not penal inmates?
Whats the numbers and goals that open things back up?
It’ll be over after the election [emoji23]
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So what's the end goal now that deaths are way down but positive cases are up? When can the masks come off and the economy can be fully functional again? When can kids go to school like kids and not penal inmates?
Whats the numbers and goals that open things back up?
They’ll have updated projections November 4th.
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PracticalRifleman
08-21-20, 21:35
Not true. A recent article in JAMA shows otherwise.
Please provide a link.
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Not true. A recent article in JAMA shows otherwise.
Studies show that not drinking alcohol reduces the potential for getting a DWI. So what.
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PracticalRifleman
08-21-20, 21:36
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200822/784c76f2971f88c018018240669b6ed6.jpg
The mask will save her life.
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And she even has a valved mask.
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I ran into the local 5.11 store earlier today to grab a couple pairs of jeans. When I got to the jean rack and grabbed a couple pairs in my size a store employee approached me.
5.11: "Sir, do you have a mask?
Me: "No, sorry man, I don't."
5.11: "Our policy is that everyone must wear a mask."
Me: "Yeah, sorry, I don't have one on me."
5.11: "It's our corporate policy. I can't even ring you up unless you are wearing a mask."
Me: "Are you serious?"
5.11: "We have some that I could sell you if you want but you have to wear a mask."
Me: "Well, okay then, guess I'm not buying jeans today if you won't let me."
I put the jeans down and walked out.
I've been wearing their jeans since they came out, and I'm pretty surprised that they are taking a hard line on the mask wearing mandate. Sucks because I like their jeans, but not sure I will be spending any more money with them after that.
Anyone know of any other quality pants that fit like the 511 Defenderflex line?
Grizzlyblake, Man, this is what you should have done. Just put on your mask:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AASp25qWIUk
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 21:42
That's ridiculous - just like the Spanish Flu - we will build a tolerance, the virus will mutate, and we will learn more effective treatment. Even with a vaccine, it's not going away, any more than the flu has.
Andy
So why are you trying to drag out the virus impact?
I came across much more gruff and not nearly as funny as I intended.
IMHO, any store that requires masks should have a box of disposable masks to offer customers without one. Kinda shady they wouldn't sell you pants but would sell you a mask. They lost a sale because they would not hand you a 10 cent mask - idiots.
I took a quick trip across a half-dozen or so states in the last week and I realize that different regions have different levels of infection and, frankly, different levels of risk tolerance. I and my wife have been wearing masks pretty religiously on the trip because we are travelling 2000+ miles and I don't want to be a "patient zero".
The answer to your question is simply that both parties wearing masks is almost twice as effective as one party wearing a mask. It is a reduction strategy, not a cure-all.
I don't tell anyone to wear a mask (except at work, because they pay me) or give them the stink eye. If I see someone turn around at a store entrance because they don't have a mask, I offer one of the disposables I keep in each car/truck. We are all in this together and Covid is never going away.
Andy
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/21/who-warns-a-coronavirus-vaccine-alone-will-not-end-pandemic.html
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200822/56532890ede746dc0bc9c78104d57afa.jpg
TLDR we can’t beat Covid until will beat climate change.... so yea the WHO can sit and spin.
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sandsunsurf
08-21-20, 21:43
What is the strongest evidence you have seen that convinced you that the general public, wearing improvised cloth masks, will have any significant impact on reducing transmission?
Although it’s anecdotal, I think the news that two hairstylists ended up being positive for Covid but spread it to exactly zero people out of 140+ almost certainly because of the fact that both parties were wearing masks. Other moderate-time, moderate-distance exposures without masks have led to spread (restaurants and gyms). Add to this the basic concept of a barrier of any sorts, and especially two barriers, will reduce small droplets going from one mouth/nose to another, and I’m convinced that masks are an easy way to reduce spread.
https://www.today.com/health/missouri-great-clips-hairstylists-coronavirus-did-not-infect-140-clients-t183982
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 21:45
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/21/who-warns-a-coronavirus-vaccine-alone-will-not-end-pandemic.html
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200822/56532890ede746dc0bc9c78104d57afa.jpg
TLDR we can’t beat Covid until will beat climate change.... so yea the WHO can sit and spin.
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I will be doing a thread on this tomorrow but you can look up 'Build Back Better' before then.
PracticalRifleman
08-21-20, 21:46
Although it’s anecdotal, I think the news that two hairstylists ended up being positive for Covid but spread it to exactly zero people out of 140+ almost certainly because of the fact that both parties were wearing masks. Other moderate-time, moderate-distance exposures without masks have led to spread (restaurants and gyms). Add to this the basic concept of a barrier of any sorts, and especially two barriers, will reduce small droplets going from one mouth/nose to another, and I’m convinced that masks are an easy way to reduce spread.
https://www.today.com/health/missouri-great-clips-hairstylists-coronavirus-did-not-infect-140-clients-t183982
Though obviously anecdotal, I don’t think any conclusion could be drawn from it in regards to masks.
However, there is strong evidence that the asymptomatic cannot spread the virus. It would be more likely that this anecdotal evidence is due to the latter rather than the former.
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Belmont31R
08-21-20, 21:47
Although it’s anecdotal, I think the news that two hairstylists ended up being positive for Covid but spread it to exactly zero people out of 140+ almost certainly because of the fact that both parties were wearing masks. Other moderate-time, moderate-distance exposures without masks have led to spread (restaurants and gyms). Add to this the basic concept of a barrier of any sorts, and especially two barriers, will reduce small droplets going from one mouth/nose to another, and I’m convinced that masks are an easy way to reduce spread.
https://www.today.com/health/missouri-great-clips-hairstylists-coronavirus-did-not-infect-140-clients-t183982
If you put old and vulnerable people in a bubble what's the point of reducing spread?
Why haven't old and vulnerable people been put into a bubble? Thats what's sports teams are doing.
Although it’s anecdotal, I think the news that two hairstylists ended up being positive for Covid but spread it to exactly zero people out of 140+ almost certainly because of the fact that both parties were wearing masks. Other moderate-time, moderate-distance exposures without masks have led to spread (restaurants and gyms). Add to this the basic concept of a barrier of any sorts, and especially two barriers, will reduce small droplets going from one mouth/nose to another, and I’m convinced that masks are an easy way to reduce spread.
https://www.today.com/health/missouri-great-clips-hairstylists-coronavirus-did-not-infect-140-clients-t183982
I’m old enough to remember when the goal was to simply “flatten the curve”.... my how the goal posts have shifted since then
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So why are you trying to drag out the virus impact?
Wear mask, don't wear mask, die, don't die, buy jeans, go naked, I DGAF.
Belmont31R
08-21-20, 23:06
Wear mask, don't wear mask, die, don't die, buy jeans, go naked, I DGAF.
Good. Now we just need local and state gov's to do the same.
ChattanoogaPhil
08-22-20, 06:42
Wear mask, don't wear mask, die, don't die, buy jeans, go naked, I DGAF.
^^^^^ This.
Now we just need to instill this level of liberty mindedness in government.
^^^^^ This.
Now we just need to instill this level of liberty mindedness in government.
But the government needs to keep all us little tax generators safe from ourselves.
Life's a Hillary
08-22-20, 10:11
So you're telling me that I should do more to protect these people, because they don't like to live a healthy life to protect themselves?
If you can show me where I said that I’d be interested to see it. Personally, I know quite a few immunocompromised people who are that way by a bad roll of the dice, not because they stuff their faces or made unhealthy life choices. I also know quite a few elderly people who would have a real rough go of things if they got it. So maybe you should just take minimal precautions to be a decent citizen and person and get off your high horse.
If it only saves one life, right?
Please remember this when gun violence is declared a national pandemic.
Life's a Hillary
08-22-20, 11:43
If it only saves one life, right?
Please remember this when gun violence is declared a national pandemic.
Comparing wearing a mask, staying home while sick, washing your hands, etc to gun control is so stupid it hurts. I hope you don’t wear a seatbelt either because my body my rules right? Don’t hurt yourself reaching that far.
Comparing wearing a mask, staying home while sick, washing your hands, etc to gun control is so stupid it hurts. I hope you don’t wear a seatbelt either because my body my rules right? Don’t hurt yourself reaching that far.
The mental gymnastics you’re using to dismiss the context of his point are what’s really stupid.
All lives are equal but somehow lives lost to heart disease, diabetes, obesity, medical **** ups, or the 600,000 yearly abortions, etc annually are somehow less equal to lives lost at the hands of a BS virus because people are to dumb to read between the faux political panic and sensationalism?
Nah fam.
The openness to and endorsement of continued national lockdowns and economical tyranny should be absolutely criminal.
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Comparing wearing a mask, staying home while sick, washing your hands, etc to gun control is so stupid it hurts. I hope you don’t wear a seatbelt either because my body my rules right? Don’t hurt yourself reaching that far.
Haha i’m good bro. I’ve been working this whole damn time, both jobs. Not wearing a mask. Moving right along. Not really concerned because I’m not a fat tub of shit.
Yes some people get a bad shake in life, but ultimately that is their issue not mine. It is not worth bankrupting People, closing businesses, all the while printing money so goddamn fast I’m surprised it hasn’t burst in the flames yet over People who unfortunately have pre-existing conditions.
And I don’t feel like shutting down the whole country so your memaw can live another two years in the rest home.
Averageman
08-22-20, 12:05
If you can show me where I said that I’d be interested to see it. Personally, I know quite a few immunocompromised people who are that way by a bad roll of the dice, not because they stuff their faces or made unhealthy life choices. I also know quite a few elderly people who would have a real rough go of things if they got it. So maybe you should just take minimal precautions to be a decent citizen and person and get off your high horse.
Oddly enough they cant sell drugs that suppress the immune system fast enough these days. Lots of folks out there taking meds for psoriasis and arthritis that would seem to a novice like me to be sketchy right about now.
Comparing wearing a mask, staying home while sick, washing your hands, etc to gun control is so stupid it hurts. I hope you don’t wear a seatbelt either because my body my rules right? Don’t hurt yourself reaching that far.
Remember, it's the governments' job to legislate your safety. Long gone are the days when it was your God Given Right to fall off a cliff, get eaten by a Bear, get kicked in the head by a horse, break your hand in a loading chute or run into the back of a semi-trailer (Jane Mansfield) and nearly lose your head. No more individualism in America - it's not tolerated. I remember a line by Obama which pretty well said it all, and I paraphrase:
"Your individual salvation is dependent upon Collective Salvation".
Chicago Jesus was thru and thru Marx with a hint of Saul Alinsky.
Life's a Hillary
08-22-20, 12:55
The mental gymnastics you’re using to dismiss the context of his point are what’s really stupid.
All lives are equal but somehow lives lost to heart disease, diabetes, obesity, medical **** ups, or the 600,000 yearly abortions, etc annually are somehow less equal to lives lost at the hands of a BS virus because people are to dumb to read between the faux political panic and sensationalism?
Nah fam.
The openness to and endorsement of continued national lockdowns and economical tyranny should be absolutely criminal.
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Not what I’m saying but k
Life's a Hillary
08-22-20, 12:56
Haha i’m good bro. I’ve been working this whole damn time, both jobs. Not wearing a mask. Moving right along. Not really concerned because I’m not a fat tub of shit.
Yes some people get a bad shake in life, but ultimately that is their issue not mine. It is not worth bankrupting People, closing businesses, all the while printing money so goddamn fast I’m surprised it hasn’t burst in the flames yet over People who unfortunately have pre-existing conditions.
And I don’t feel like shutting down the whole country so your memaw can live another two years in the rest home.
I never said shut down and bankrupt, good job putting words in my mouth though
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-22-20, 14:16
That's alright I got yelled at in a local gunstore for wearing a mask. Stuff is crazy now.
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