Time for a lifestyle change? MRI results are in ...

[Buncheong]

I’m wondering if I need to make some permanent caliber changes, and could use some advice.

MRI shows bulged disc at L5/L4 (2mm) with annular fissure. Bulged disc also at L3/L2 but too small too measure. No signs of arthritis. Doctor says to do physical therapy, just waiting on insurance to authorize.

I was in a car wreck 6 years ago, t-boned by a texting driver who ran a red. 5 broken ribs, concussion. Dunno if disc issue is from that but guessing so. No pain these days but I have numbness and tingling in the toes and thighs, which doc didn’t like, so he ordered the MRI and here we are.

Before the MRI results I was trying to get a 590A1 cuz I like them a lot, but now having second thoughts. 12 gauge kicks real hard.

Safe contains 1903 Springfield, M1 Garand, K98 Mauser, M28 Mosin-Nagant, etc. Larger calibers for which I use a Limbsaver slip-on pad.

Wondering if I really oughta’ give these all up, and go lighter/smaller/less recoil. I don’t want my back to get worse.

I’m halfway between 50 and 60 YOA but still fit into the my old woodland BDUs I wore at 25. Hike, swim, lift weights some.

Your thoughts? All viewpoints welcome.

[Averageman]

Mobility or pain issues at this point?
If you are I would sell, there has likely not been a better time.
Multiple concussions here I've pondered the same things.

[TheAlsatian]

Have had some similar issues here. If you have a need for a shotgun, I would normally suggest a Benelli M4. There is almost no felt recoil but now is not the time to buy as they have skyrocketed in price. You could consider 20 ga and stick to .223 or .243 for rifles. Best wishes for your recovery.

[jsbhike]

Limbsaver is available for Mossberg buttstocks and it mitigates turkey loads very well so unless you plan on running 3" slugs/buck in the 590 I think you will be ok.

[prepare]

Continue modified exercises that don't aggravate.
An active lifestyle is advantageous in so many ways.
Patients- sometimes these things go away on their own but may take year or longer.

[New Centurion]

"prepare" is spot on. You can take it at face value, or keep reading. Here's a long version of how I know:

In 2017 I had a couple bouts of low back pain that culminated with a flare up after a long drive and I could barely get out of bed for a week. An MRI showed bulged disc at L4-L5, Spondylolisthesis, moderate spinal stenosis. Pain was off the scale and I had sciatic pain as well. For reference, I'm mid 50's, Ht/Wt proportionate but have always been on the thin side. Spinal doc said sitting is the absolutely worst thing for it, and my job has been long periods of travel/sitting for the last 15 years. I was out of work for 5 months after the flare up/MRI/diagnosis. I declined spinal injection, Physical Therapy got me up and about and back to work.
Since then, I do a morning back routine that takes me about 1 to 1.5hrs about 5 days a week. I have slacked up twice since 2018, both times I ended up with low back pain and sciatic pain at the high end of the scale and back at the doc. Both times he asked if I was doing the exercises regularly, and he knew I wasn't. I went home, started them again and pain mostly goes away. I always have a slight "sprain" type ache in my lower back, but it's manageable.

edit: I didn't address your question! My safe is M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, FAL, DD M4(mid length gas), shotgun, many pistols. I have fired the long guns seated at a bench with no issues from recoil. I had to turn in my issued M4 at work because having it slung all day to re-Qual aggravated my back. Handgun qual is no problem, shotgun qual is brief and no problem. but I definitely feel it by the end of the qual day. Retirement is in my near future.

I hope this gives you a reference, but it all really depends on your individual mechanics and response to treatment/PT.

[jmoore]

Mobility or pain issues at this point?

These are signs/symptoms for assessing nerve/nerve root or spinal cord tract impingement - which could possibly progress.
They are, however, part of a triad of things the docs look for - with “numbness and tingling” being the the third component (a sensory component related to, but not the same as, pain.). Mobility (motor function) is taken care of by a totally different (ventral) nerve root.
Your symptomology could possibly indicate, among other things, dorsal root compression to some of the spinal nerves. Ask your neurologist about this.
Best of luck!

geezer john

[Elkhound]

Best of luck with the healing process.

I have Remington 870s, not Mossbergs, however, I have the energy absorbing recoil buffer tubers on both 870s. They are not cheap, but the work great. They really reduce felt recoil. I'm over 60 and I have shot 50 rounds of slugs and buck shot with an 870 and the next day my shoulder is not bruised, nor does it hurt.

https://www.mesatactical.com/products/crosshair-hydraulic-recoil-buffer-12-ga-and-20-ga.html

[Averageman]

These are signs/symptoms for assessing nerve/nerve root or spinal cord tract impingement - which could possibly progress.
They are, however, part of a triad of things the docs look for - with “numbness and tingling” being the the third component (a sensory component related to, but not the same as, pain.). Mobility (motor function) is taken care of by a totally different (ventral) nerve root.
Your symptomology could possibly indicate, among other things, dorsal root compression to some of the spinal nerves. Ask your neurologist about this.
Best of luck!

geezer john

I had a back injury directly related to .mil service and couldn't get any help from the .mil and later no help from the VA. Frustrating to say the least. I finally paid out of pocket and got set on the right track and yes all of this was noted in my military health records.
It's a b*tch to do, but sometimes you have to network with others suffering the same issues and shop for the right Doctor.
I had some nerve issues brought on by a muscle that healed wrong. Surgery was suggested multiple opinions later, because I wasn't getting cut on unless it was the very, very last resort, I found someone who fixed it.
Having said all of that, I'm not a new age medicine holistic health kind of guy, but Acupuncture and Chiropractic medicine along with Yoga fixed it for me. I'm not advocating that for everyone, but it worked for me.

[P2Vaircrewman]

Long story short. Several years ago I had sciatic leg pain from spondylolisthesis. Simple definition L4 had slipped forward of L5 and pinching the nerves going to both legs. Doctor said fusion surgery was the only permanent solution. Instead I began weight lifting. After 6 weeks of weighted squats the pain went away and has never returned. I can't say if I stopped lifting if the pain would return. I have lifted 2 to 3 times a week for the last 6 years, I put on 20 pounds of muscle which helps daily living as I am 76 years old.

[Averageman]

76?
You Sir are "The Man" and an inspiration.

[Life's a Hillary]

Lots of people have bulging discs and don’t even know it until they get an MRI. I’d remain skeptical that it’s the problem unless a physical exam or other symptoms help a doctor confirm. This is where a good doctor comes into play that doesn’t just order imaging and go with whatever it shows.

[Pappabear]

Yea, I wouldn't buy 12g shotty. If you don't shoot the long guns much, maybe sell maybe not. Are you sore after shooting them, big clue there for you.

I had a bulging disk for 20 years and last year it gave up the ghost and I went from achey to pain I couldn't imagine. Oddly enough, I felt like I had tore my quad, and the pain was unbearable. It went away then came back and I could tell it was emanating from my back going around my hip into my leg. Text book from what the doc said. My disc herniated and he did a discectomy and I'm back to staying fit, and not being stupid.

Bottom, line I was watching myself but eventually the bulges can herniate, don't push them. I was being careful and it still happened.

PB

PB

[Buncheong]

I appreciate the detailed replies, Gentlemen, thanks very much.

I don’t shoot as much or as often as many on M4C do, and nowhere near as much as I’d like; so far, I have no pain or soreness after shooting.

Besides the numbness in thigh and tingling in toes, I am sometimes stiff in the lower back area after stretching out on the floor to watch TV or read a book. Like today I woke up, got out of bed and was stiff in the lumbar area of my back.

[Buncheong]

"prepare" is spot on. You can take it at face value, or keep reading. Here's a long version of how I know:

In 2017 I had a couple bouts of low back pain that culminated with a flare up after a long drive and I could barely get out of bed for a week. An MRI showed bulged disc at L4-L5, Spondylolisthesis, moderate spinal stenosis. Pain was off the scale and I had sciatic pain as well. For reference, I'm mid 50's, Ht/Wt proportionate but have always been on the thin side. Spinal doc said sitting is the absolutely worst thing for it, and my job has been long periods of travel/sitting for the last 15 years. I was out of work for 5 months after the flare up/MRI/diagnosis. I declined spinal injection, Physical Therapy got me up and about and back to work.
Since then, I do a morning back routine that takes me about 1 to 1.5hrs about 5 days a week. I have slacked up twice since 2018, both times I ended up with low back pain and sciatic pain at the high end of the scale and back at the doc. Both times he asked if I was doing the exercises regularly, and he knew I wasn't. I went home, started them again and pain mostly goes away. I always have a slight "sprain" type ache in my lower back, but it's manageable.

edit: I didn't address your question! My safe is M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, FAL, DD M4(mid length gas), shotgun, many pistols. I have fired the long guns seated at a bench with no issues from recoil. I had to turn in my issued M4 at work because having it slung all day to re-Qual aggravated my back. Handgun qual is no problem, shotgun qual is brief and no problem. but I definitely feel it by the end of the qual day. Retirement is in my near future.

I hope this gives you a reference, but it all really depends on your individual mechanics and response to treatment/PT.

Your situation and mine have many similarities. Thanks much for sharing the specifics, I sure appreciate it.

[Buncheong]

... so unless you plan on running 3" slugs/buck in the 590 I think you will be ok.

Caught me; guilty as charged.

00 buck and slugs were what I was going to use it for - however after reading your post (and papa bear’s), I am forced to reconsider my plans.

[jsbhike]

Caught me; guilty as charged.

00 buck and slugs were what I was going to use it for - however after reading your post (and papa bear’s), I am forced to reconsider my plans.

2-3/4" with a good pad(Limbsaver or Remington Supercell) aren't bad, especially standard buck shot loads. Best to try before you buy it possible though.

Remington makes a managed recoil 1oz slug 1200fps that is easy on the shoulder along with managed recoil 8 pellet 00 buck that is even easier.

I sighted in 12 he slugs earlier in the week off the bench with a Supercell pad and the managed recoil slugs along with 1oz/1600 fps slugs and the managed recoil stuff is more inline with recoil off a 7.62 FAL and the full powers were not jarring like a typical pad(or plastic/metal plate) and I am a bit of a wuss when it comes to hard kickers.

[New Centurion]

Your situation and mine have many similarities. Thanks much for sharing the specifics, I sure appreciate it.

No problem, I'm not a big contributor here, consider myself user-end and not SME. Saw your post and can say I figuratively and literally feel your pain. P2V sets the bar high, although when I'm loading yard debris in the pickup, you'd think I was deadlifting an engine block based on my technique. I might be a little over cautious now.

[Coal Dragger]

Long story short. Several years ago I had sciatic leg pain from spondylolisthesis. Simple definition L4 had slipped forward of L5 and pinching the nerves going to both legs. Doctor said fusion surgery was the only permanent solution. Instead I began weight lifting. After 6 weeks of weighted squats the pain went away and has never returned. I can't say if I stopped lifting if the pain would return. I have lifted 2 to 3 times a week for the last 6 years, I put on 20 pounds of muscle which helps daily living as I am 76 years old.

This is the answer.

I am considerably younger but have a destroyed L5/S1. No day to day pain. I started out rehabbing it with swimming to get blood flow to the area without loading it or putting impact on it.

Then I got back in the gym and got serious about learning and utilizing the most effective lifts for getting everything strong. Namely the squat and the deadlift.

OP your discs aren’t going to heal or come back. Welcome to being an adult Homo sapiens. Ask yourself if you want a shitty lower back that is weak, or a shitty lower back that is strong. The correct answer is strong. Squats and deadlifts will force your core abdominal muscles, spinal erectors, lower back, hips, glutes, quads, hamstrings, well pretty much everything to be honest to get stronger.

I assume you’re not concerned about having six pack abs and looking good with your shirt off, so body building shenanigans and diet can be dispensed with. If that is the case look into Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, very practical strength programming that I’ve found very effective. He also has lots of YouTube content, and some specific observations on lifters with back pain. Namely that after about 3 weeks of training they worth through their back pain issues, and get stronger.

You probably won’t need to give up any of your shooting irons.

[Mozart]

Wow, this is timely. Sorry OP, I know what you’re dealing with.

For the second time this year, I’m going in for a steroid injection in the L4L5 disc on Tuesday. I’ve been largely bed ridden with pain most of this week. On Monday I went to lift a laundry basket up the stairs, something twitched, instant 10/10 stab of pain. Only thing that relieves it is laying flat. It’s quite an endeavor to turn on my side in the middle of the night.

I have been told that multiple steroid epidural injections are not good for you, so this is only a short term fix, can’t keep getting these. Thanks for some other ideas.

Question: has anyone personally had good results using an inversion table? I bought a Teeter a while back but I don’t use it much.

[Adrenaline_6]

Wow, this is timely. Sorry OP, I know what you’re dealing with.

For the second time this year, I’m going in for a steroid injection in the L4L5 disc on Tuesday. I’ve been largely bed ridden with pain most of this week. On Monday I went to lift a laundry basket up the stairs, something twitched, instant 10/10 stab of pain. Only thing that relieves it is laying flat. It’s quite an endeavor to turn on my side in the middle of the night.

I have been told that multiple steroid epidural injections are not good for you, so this is only a short term fix, can’t keep getting these. Thanks for some other ideas.

Question: has anyone personally had good results using an inversion table? I bought a Teeter a while back but I don’t use it much.

I herniated my L4/L5 way back in 1998 and had to get a discectomy (was stuck bent over for over a month) which solved the pain and rehab wasnt anything really. It would act up every so often (slip out of place) and an inversion table would help pop it back in place pretty quickly. It worked great.

Fast forward to October last year. I was keeping my old self in shape doing BJJ and kickboxing. I herniated it again. The violent twisting motion of kicking and the resulting impact slipped it out of place and it would not slip back in due to how bad the herniation was this time. The pain sucked and walking was no small task. I tried injections...no worky. I had to get L4/L5 fusion surgery in February.

The surgery solved the pain but it takes awhile to rehab. I did go back to work in two weeks, but was told to really get back to any type of normalcy as far as going back to exercise like BJJ and kickboxing will be 9 months to a year.

[Mozart]

I herniated my L4/L5 way back in 1998 and had to get a discectomy (was stuck bent over for over a month) which solved the pain and rehab wasnt anything really. It would act up every so often (slip out of place) and an inversion table would help pop it back in place pretty quickly. It worked great.

Fast forward to October last year. I was keeping my old self in shape doing BJJ and kickboxing. I herniated it again. The violent twisting motion of kicking and the resulting impact slipped it out of place and it would not slip back in due to how bad the herniation was this time. The pain sucked and walking was no small task. I tried injections...no worky. I had to get L4/L5 fusion surgery in February.

The surgery solved the pain but it takes awhile to rehab. I was told to really get back to any type of normalcy as far as going back to exercise like BJJ and kickboxing will be 9 months to a year.

So it really all depends on the specifics of the issue, and the person.

I’m 35, I’m hopeful some core strengthening will help me out

[Adrenaline_6]

So it really all depends on the specifics of the issue, and the person.

I’m 35, I’m hopeful some core strengthening will help me out

Core is key. That is why I went back to practicing martial arts. I did it for years, slacked for awhile and realized I needed to do something before I got fat. I was lucky with genetics not to balloon out of proportion slacking off to begin with. The stomach muscles support the back muscles...without them, it's just a matter of time.

I still plan to go back once I am able to. Some of my buddies think I am nuts for planning to, but I am not doing the cross fit thing. Screw that. Not my style.

[jmoore]

< ...has anyone personally had good results using an inversion table >

There is Yin & Yang to everything. While many get significant relief from tables, an inversion table is also a good way to find out if you are prone to PVDs/retinal detachments, or if you might have a thin cerebral berry aneurysm somewhere upstairs!!! YMMV.

geezer john

[pag23]

Stretching and strengthening your core is key....I learned the had way after back issues for years, I have L5-S1 issues, so working out my lower back, obliques and stomach really helps.

Maybe shoot while sitting at the bench or get a lightweight AR...

[chuckman]

Shooting will not make those back issues worse. Lifting heavy stuff with bad technique will make it worse, running will make it worse, but shooting will not.

[Crow Hunter]

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?120401-Ruptured-Disc-anyone-had-one

I had a ruptured disc 7 years ago as detailed above. Some of the worst pain I have had in my life. I was basically immobile for a while. It sucked bad. I had 2 steroid injections which gave me central cirrus retinopathy (AVOID Cortizone injections) and cost me some visual acuity in my dominant eye.

I did not have surgery. I did physical therapy for a long time and I am very, very careful about how I pick things up. No problems now. I shoot pump action shotguns when crow hunting now with no problems other than the recoil tends to shove my narrow a$$ around as I am rather skinny. :D No back pain from it, even when shooting from odd somewhat contorted positions

I had a very good surgeon. He said he had enough money and if I was able to take the time to do physically therapy I would have the same results as surgery but it would take longer to get to the same results and be safer.

Best Wishes!

[P2Vaircrewman]

This is the answer.

I am considerably younger but have a destroyed L5/S1. No day to day pain. I started out rehabbing it with swimming to get blood flow to the area without loading it or putting impact on it.

Then I got back in the gym and got serious about learning and utilizing the most effective lifts for getting everything strong. Namely the squat and the deadlift.

OP your discs aren’t going to heal or come back. Welcome to being an adult Homo sapiens. Ask yourself if you want a shitty lower back that is weak, or a shitty lower back that is strong. The correct answer is strong. Squats and deadlifts will force your core abdominal muscles, spinal erectors, lower back, hips, glutes, quads, hamstrings, well pretty much everything to be honest to get stronger.

I assume you’re not concerned about having six pack abs and looking good with your shirt off, so body building shenanigans and diet can be dispensed with. If that is the case look into Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, very practical strength programming that I’ve found very effective. He also has lots of YouTube content, and some specific observations on lifters with back pain. Namely that after about 3 weeks of training they worth through their back pain issues, and get stronger.

You probably won’t need to give up any of your shooting irons.

That was basically what I did. My best dead lift is to date 250.

[jsbhike]

Shooting will not make those back issues worse. Lifting heavy stuff with bad technique will make it worse, running will make it worse, but shooting will not.

One possible side caveat to that is a sudden jolt of pain causing an involuntary action leading to other damage to self or surroundings.

[Det-Sog]

I’m halfway between 50 and 60 YOA but still fit into the my old woodland BDUs I wore at 25. Hike, swim, lift weights some.

Yeah... Same here. I'm too scared to have my back imaged. I try to stay as active as possible. My Ahhhnold Schwarzenegger SWAT days are 20 years behind me, but I'm still paying from them. I've noticed that If I keep my core strong, my back does not hurt "as much".

I've gotten rid of EVERY heavy and/or hard kicking weapon that I have. In the 21st century, I have no use for a shotgun either. Nothing larger for me now than a 5.56 or .357 Mag.

Stay active as possible. Sitting is the new smoking. Sadly, in my career I do a LOT of sitting.

The GOOD news... One shoulder, one knee and one hip are starting to rival my back for pain. It makes me forget about the back as much. Getting old sucks, but it beats the alternative.

[The_War_Wagon]

Safe contains 1903 Springfield, M1 Garand, K98 Mauser, M28 Mosin-Nagant, etc. Larger calibers for which I use a Limbsaver slip-on pad.

I’m halfway between 50 and 60 YOA but still fit into the my old woodland BDUs I wore at 25. Hike, swim, lift weights some.

Your thoughts? All viewpoints welcome.

You made it to 55, WITHOUT an AR?! :blink: I'm not far behind you, and I've owned 'em for 30 years!

Your back won't complain about an AR... assuming you can FIND one now. :eek: