View Full Version : A Little HK45 & P30 Help Please
I am changing over to the HK system in my handguns from the M&P's. I had a M&P 45 that just got replaced with an HK45c and its big brother the HK45 is on the way. I also found a good deal locally on a P30L, and it will more than likely end up being my new IDPA gun.
One thing I liked about the M&P's minus the thumb safety on my full size .45 was how they were all alike; in grip feel, trigger, and manual of arms.
I am hoping to acheive this with the HK's. I know the P30 is a different pistol than the HK45, but does anyone know if HK can do a trigger variant change on the P30 to either LEM or what would be the variant 9 on the HK45, SA/DA/thumb safety/no decocker?
Second question, how comparable is the HK light LEM (4.5-5.5 lbs) to having an M&P with the performance center sear? Can someone give me an idea as to the difference between the LEM and the M&P's regular trigger pull.
On a side note, the HK45c is a damn fine pistol and what little bit I have got to shoot it since I got it, I have been very impressed. This is my first HK and it will not be my last. Now if Raven Concealment will just release the HK45c IWB holster, I'll be GTG.
I dig my HK45C, just plain reliable.
I'd contact HK re: the LEM mods. My HK45C needs a trigger mod... got other priorities right now though.
Well as of right now HK does not offer a LEM trigger for the P30. We are all hoping it will come soon to this market but HK has not even hinted at a date for a P30 LEM so don't hold your breath for one for a while.
I have never shot an M&P with that trigger but I do know the LEM is totally different then any other trigger system and you can not honestly compare apples to apples.
I shoot the HK45 as my primary weapon system. I use it for all competitions now, training etc. I do keep a Glock 17 around with lots of ammo for SHTF world collapse type moments but other then that I run the HK45 system. I have also kicked around buying the P30L since it is as close to the HK45 you can get. My big issue is I do not like a double action first shot with single action later. I run my HK45's in cocked and locked 1911 style, single action. This is the only thing that has kept me from buying a P30L. I will say I will probably buy one just to have one but I doubt I would make it my primary pistol.
FlyingHunter
11-29-08, 18:33
Take a look at hkpro.com for excellent HK info.
FWIW - I use my HK45 for all use, CCW, training, competition etc...I use a raven concealment and the I've adapted to the full size vs. having the c model or p30.
HK's rock whatever the model.
Folks - Bill did a few upgrades to my HK45 & P30L - much nicer double and single action. Quick work and reasonably priced.
http://www.triggerwork.net/
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=87440
I am changing over to the HK system in my handguns from the M&P's. I had a M&P 45 that just got replaced with an HK45c and its big brother the HK45 is on the way. I also found a good deal locally on a P30L, and it will more than likely end up being my new IDPA gun.
One thing I liked about the M&P's minus the thumb safety on my full size .45 was how they were all alike; in grip feel, trigger, and manual of arms.
I am hoping to acheive this with the HK's. I know the P30 is a different pistol than the HK45, but does anyone know if HK can do a trigger variant change on the P30 to either LEM or what would be the variant 9 on the HK45, SA/DA/thumb safety/no decocker?
Second question, how comparable is the HK light LEM (4.5-5.5 lbs) to having an M&P with the performance center sear? Can someone give me an idea as to the difference between the LEM and the M&P's regular trigger pull.
On a side note, the HK45c is a damn fine pistol and what little bit I have got to shoot it since I got it, I have been very impressed. This is my first HK and it will not be my last. Now if Raven Concealment will just release the HK45c IWB holster, I'll be GTG.
Was your M&P malfunctioning or did you just decide to change for the heck of it?
There is no doubt the HK series of pistols are excellent but to give up a functioning M&P doesn't seem to make alot of sense to me. The M&P triggers can be made to be very user friendly and very manageable. To be honest, I do have several M&P's and no HK's at the time but I have shot the Hk45 and though I am sure they very reliable IMHO they don't compare trigger wise to a properly modified M&P. If the HK line were superior to the M&P in actual shootability they would be winning IDPA and USPSA matches, they don't appear to be.
Granted the HK may be more durable under very adverse conditions but let's face it most of us are not going to ever face that reality. The most adverse condition is probably going to be in your car trunk for several days or in your holster for hours at a time. IMHO
BushmasterFanBoy
11-30-08, 14:42
Was your M&P malfunctioning or did you just decide to change for the heck of it?
There is no doubt the HK series of pistols are excellent but to give up a functioning M&P doesn't seem to make alot of sense to me. The M&P triggers can be made to be very user friendly and very manageable. To be honest, I do have several M&P's and no HK's at the time but I have shot the Hk45 and though I am sure they very reliable IMHO they don't compare trigger wise to a properly modified M&P. If the HK line were superior to the M&P in actual shootability they would be winning IDPA and USPSA matches, they don't appear to be.
Granted the HK may be more durable under very adverse conditions but let's face it most of us are not going to ever face that reality. The most adverse condition is probably going to be in your car trunk for several days or in your holster for hours at a time. IMHO
John,
I have had trigger time behind both a bone stock M&P .40 S&W and an out of the box HK45. Of the two I have shot the HK45 much more.
I'm not an engineer, I don't know about the long term reliability of the two pistols. My only "problems" with the HK45 is that I have accidentally de-cocked the pistol during firing (I simply had to pull a DA trigger for the next shot) and the slide will close if a magazine is forcibly inserted into the pistol. Neither the HK45 or the M&P has had a jam of any sort.
For me personally I shoot the HK45 much better than I do the M&P .40S&W. The grip on the pistol fits my hands much better than the M&P does with any of the back straps. On the model I shot, the M&P trigger seemed worse than the HK45. Both were stock. I much preferred the HK45 trigger.
I like the simple three white dots on the M&P pistol. The HK45 sights glow green, I have yet to have them replaced.
The HK45 is a tad more expensive than the M&P. I feel this is a deciding factor for many buyers. Choosing a handgun is a personal decision and it is very important to see how the pistol feels in YOUR hands, and if possible how it feels when you shoot it. What works for me, might not work well for you.
I personally shoot the HK45 much better than the M&P. I attribute this to a combination of the trigger and grip.
Below are two videos of me shooting the above pistols:
HK45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIeYylyxU30
M&P .40 S&W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gERrKhltuFA
John,
I have had trigger time behind both a bone stock M&P .40 S&W and an out of the box HK45. Of the two I have shot the HK45 much more.
I'm not an engineer, I don't know about the long term reliability of the two pistols. My only "problems" with the HK45 is that I have accidentally de-cocked the pistol during firing (I simply had to pull a DA trigger for the next shot) and the slide will close if a magazine is forcibly inserted into the pistol. Neither the HK45 or the M&P has had a jam of any sort.
For me personally I shoot the HK45 much better than I do the M&P .40S&W. The grip on the pistol fits my hands much better than the M&P does with any of the back straps. On the model I shot, the M&P trigger seemed worse than the HK45. Both were stock. I much preferred the HK45 trigger.
I like the simple three white dots on the M&P pistol. The HK45 sights glow green, I have yet to have them replaced.
The HK45 is a tad more expensive than the M&P. I feel this is a deciding factor for many buyers. Choosing a handgun is a personal decision and it is very important to see how the pistol feels in YOUR hands, and if possible how it feels when you shoot it. What works for me, might not work well for you.
I personally shoot the HK45 much better than the M&P. I attribute this to a combination of the trigger and grip.
Below are two videos of me shooting the above pistols:
HK45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIeYylyxU30
M&P .40 S&W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gERrKhltuFA
You seem to shoot both platforms pretty well. Have you tried the M&P with a proper trigger job by Burwell or Bowie? If you haven't that might change your mind. Also, I think you would find the M&P45 easier to shoot than the 40. Hey I am not trying to change anyones mind just curious as to why folks switch from one platform to another.
Was your M&P malfunctioning or did you just decide to change for the heck of it?
There is no doubt the HK series of pistols are excellent but to give up a functioning M&P doesn't seem to make alot of sense to me. The M&P triggers can be made to be very user friendly and very manageable. To be honest, I do have several M&P's and no HK's at the time but I have shot the Hk45 and though I am sure they very reliable IMHO they don't compare trigger wise to a properly modified M&P. If the HK line were superior to the M&P in actual shootability they would be winning IDPA and USPSA matches, they don't appear to be.
Granted the HK may be more durable under very adverse conditions but let's face it most of us are not going to ever face that reality. The most adverse condition is probably going to be in your car trunk for several days or in your holster for hours at a time. IMHO
For me it was several different reasons.
One, I dry fire a lot. I have not yet broke a striker with my M&P, but if there is a problem with that system and many have had problems, I don't want it to arise in a time of need.
Two, My M&P45 had problems in with the mag dropping clear of the mag well. The mags were very gritty going in, even after cleaning and they would not always fall free.
Three, I wanted a gun that had been tested more and one that I could carry cocked and locked like a 1911. The single action on the HK is very nice. Granted this option will likely never be on the P30, I can deal with the LEM if I have to.
The M&P's are nice guns and I still own 2, but I wanted something more for my CCW than my M&P.
I shoot my M&P .45s better than my HK 45. Less work to shoot quickly and accurately at least for me. Plus much less muzzle flip and none of the twisting muzzle flip you get on the HK 45 and other high bore axis pistols. But anyway, I have not used the light LEM trigger but people I know who have say it is very light, too light in fact.
You cannot compare LEM to really anything else. I suppose the Sig DAK trigger is a little like it but still pretty different. I would try the trigger in a gun shop. look for a P200 with LEM since you wont see any of the newer JK pistols with LEM out of the box. The P30 trigger is not too good and there are not a lot of options to make it better. i expected to really like the P30L but thought it felt unbalanced, nose heavy compared to the regular P30 and sold it. I would also go to Bill Springfield for work. It will get done quicker and just as good as anyone else. All the HK's are tack drivers but the HK45c is in a class of it's own for a smaller .45. I would put it up against any high end 1911 for accuracy no problem. Same with the full size HK 45 for that matter.
I carry a HK P2000, 357 Sig, with the Lem trigger, which takes some getting used to. After firing, you must consciously let the trigger finger go forward slightly to reset the trigger. Achieving fast repeat shots requires practice. With this arrangement there are no safeties or decockers--just the slide release. My trigger pull is definitely not too light. HK will change out springs to make it one way or the other.
sigmundsauer
12-01-08, 20:10
I have two P2000s (.40 and 9mm) and USPc .45, each in LEM. I prefer the LEM to every other trigger system for duty use. Yes, it's not as fast as some, nor as crisp, nor as light.....but, it is fast, accurate, consistent, simple, and stone cold reliable. The LEM's use extra heavy mainsprings for dependable ignition. I treat the LEM not so much like a DAO trigger....it is better to think of it as a two stage single action trigger with a long, light take up. I can shoot it equally as fast and accurate as Glock's safe action but I believe it to inherently safer than the short trigger stroke of the Glock, which I believe to be the closest trigger system like it on the market. Most people don't give the LEM enough of chance to prove its mettle, and are confused as how to use it correctly because its so different than anything else out there. Give it some time, I swear you will like it. I keep the standard weight trigger return spring in it but retrofitted the lighter firing pin block spring for ~7 lb trigger pull. Just right.
Tim
I am changing over to the HK system in my handguns from the M&P's.
Why? I thought that the M&P's were good guns.
Sigmundsaur's description of the lem trigger is the best I've ever read. HK should use it in their literature.
I fully agree that the lem is safer than the Glock trigger, which I also like.
Littlelebowski
12-01-08, 21:28
One, I dry fire a lot. I have not yet broke a striker with my M&P, but if there is a problem with that system and many have had problems, I don't want it to arise in a time of need.
That's not even a coherent argument. Todd is at over 60 thousand rounds on his M&P. Say you don't like the platform, say whatever but don't make stuff up like that.
Robb Jensen
12-01-08, 21:33
For me it was several different reasons.
One, I dry fire a lot. I have not yet broke a striker with my M&P, but if there is a problem with that system and many have had problems, I don't want it to arise in a time of need.
Two, My M&P45 had problems in with the mag dropping clear of the mag well. The mags were very gritty going in, even after cleaning and they would not always fall free.
Three, I wanted a gun that had been tested more and one that I could carry cocked and locked like a 1911. The single action on the HK is very nice. Granted this option will likely never be on the P30, I can deal with the LEM if I have to.
The M&P's are nice guns and I still own 2, but I wanted something more for my CCW than my M&P.
A lot is a relative term. I have just over 30K total through 8 different M&P. I dryfire 'a fair amount' about 90K dryfires........I've broken 4 strikers now. When using a A-zoom snap cap I NEVER BROKEN a striker.....YMMV.
I have two P2000s (.40 and 9mm) and USPc .45, each in LEM. I prefer the LEM to every other trigger system for duty use. Yes, it's not as fast as some, nor as crisp, nor as light.....but, it is fast, accurate, consistent, simple, and stone cold reliable. The LEM's use extra heavy mainsprings for dependable ignition. I treat the LEM not so much like a DAO trigger....it is better to think of it as a two stage single action trigger with a long, light take up. I can shoot it equally as fast and accurate as Glock's safe action but I believe it to inherently safer than the short trigger stroke of the Glock, which I believe to be the closest trigger system like it on the market. Most people don't give the LEM enough of chance to prove its mettle, and are confused as how to use it correctly because its so different than anything else out there. Give it some time, I swear you will like it. I keep the standard weight trigger return spring in it but retrofitted the lighter firing pin block spring for ~7 lb trigger pull. Just right.
Tim
Tim -- Just curious as to your thoughts, have you tried the Glock 3.5# connector with the NY(NY1) trigger spring? It has the same basic feel, at least to me, as the LEM but smoother because there is less resistance/friction in terms of the parts you're physically moving when you pull the trigger.
I set up my M&Ps to be just like that, too.
edited to add: In terms of breakages and dry fire, I would humbly suggest that if thousands of people were dry firing HK's a thousand times a week, you'd see a lot of their firing pins break or other problems crop up. It's an inherent issue with any gun that uses a firing pin block mechanism, something invariably goes wrong with what gun companies call excessive dry fire. They all say their guns are safe to dry fire just like their guns are all (supposedly :cool:) drop safe. But if you drop your gun 5,000 times onto a concrete block it will eventually touch off a round, if it isn't smashed to bits first.
Glocks seem to be the most dry fire safe guns out there. Probably because they were designed from day one with that capability in mind due to the disassembly procedure.
I've seen plenty of SIGs and Berettas suffer from dry fire related breakages, only in guns used by competitive shooters who dry fire a whole lot. As gotm4 pointed out, "a lot" is a relative term. I don't think I've seen twenty USP/P2000/HK45/P30 shooters in USPSA and IDPA, combined, in my entire shooting career. There isn't a single high-level competitor who shoots them. I don't say this to belittle the H&K pistols, just that when you talk about strenuous dry fire routines you have to look at how many guns are being used that way.
Personally, if I am doing a serious dry fire session with any gun, I use snap caps. Cheap insurance.
sigmundsauer
12-06-08, 10:52
Tim -- Just curious as to your thoughts, have you tried the Glock 3.5# connector with the NY(NY1) trigger spring? It has the same basic feel, at least to me, as the LEM but smoother because there is less resistance/friction in terms of the parts you're physically moving when you pull the trigger.
I set up my M&Ps to be just like that, too.
edited to add: In terms of breakages and dry fire, I would humbly suggest that if thousands of people were dry firing HK's a thousand times a week, you'd see a lot of their firing pins break or other problems crop up. It's an inherent issue with any gun that uses a firing pin block mechanism, something invariably goes wrong with what gun companies call excessive dry fire. They all say their guns are safe to dry fire just like their guns are all (supposedly :cool:) drop safe. But if you drop your gun 5,000 times onto a concrete block it will eventually touch off a round, if it isn't smashed to bits first.
Glocks seem to be the most dry fire safe guns out there. Probably because they were designed from day one with that capability in mind due to the disassembly procedure.
I've seen plenty of SIGs and Berettas suffer from dry fire related breakages, only in guns used by competitive shooters who dry fire a whole lot. As gotm4 pointed out, "a lot" is a relative term. I don't think I've seen twenty USP/P2000/HK45/P30 shooters in USPSA and IDPA, combined, in my entire shooting career. There isn't a single high-level competitor who shoots them. I don't say this to belittle the H&K pistols, just that when you talk about strenuous dry fire routines you have to look at how many guns are being used that way.
Personally, if I am doing a serious dry fire session with any gun, I use snap caps. Cheap insurance.
Todd, I've not tried the 3.5# connector and NY1 combo, simply because my Glock gets neglected compared to my other pistols. But should give it a try someday. Sounds like it would make a good combination, however I believe that one of the inherently safe attributes of HK's LEM is the relatively long take up on the front end. Trigger prep takes the slack out in an instant but there's no mistaking where you are in the trigger stroke prior to sear break. I do like the Glock trigger though.
My thoughts on dry fire are that all pistols are the better with a good snap cap like an A-Zoom. I've found that cheapo foam earplugs make a great "snap cap" substitute for hammer fired guns like the SIG and HK if wedged in to the rear of the slide on top of the firing pin. Sure, they tear up after while, but cheap to replace.
Glocks have been known to crack their breech faces due to too much dry fire without a snap cap. Their strikers are pretty stout though. 1911s are of the few guns that can be dry fired extensively without snap caps or ill effects, IMO.
Tim
I had an early M&P 9mm. It was OK, and I kind of liked it with the small grip. When I first got it the trigger had a crisp but somewhat heavy break after the light takeup. It was probably around the advertised 6.5 pounds.
After a few hundred rounds through it, the trigger parts wore in and the pull dropped to around 6 pounds, but it had developed some nasty gritty creep - just terrible. I was reasonably accurate with it despite the trigger, and it was 100% reliable, but overall it was kind of boring to shoot.
I traded it towards a P30 because the grip is about perfect for my hands, and I like that it is almost 100% ambidextrous. The M&P was pretty good in that regard, but the P30 is better. Overall quality seems to be quite a bit better than the M&P, but you do pay for it. The SA on the P30 is better than the M&P DAO, but naturally the DA on the P30 is heavier.
Shortly thereafter I got an HK45 which is simply outstanding. If I could have only one .45 this would be it. I just need to get ambi safety levers installed sometime. I also just picked up a P30L because I like the P30 so much. I didn't like the way the USP series recoiled, but the new HK's shoot really soft.
Almost every time this kind of discussion comes up, people recommend getting the trigger on the M&P modified. If it's a competition or range only gun, that's one thing. But getting an M&P modified to the point that it's really an SAO without a safety is not a good idea if you have any inkling of carrying or using it for HD. Carrying a Glock with a 3.5 lb connector is also not the best idea, although the light connector with the NY trigger is supposed to be DA revolver-like
The HK light LEM trigger as actually very similar to the Walther P99 AS trigger when the trigger is left in the forward position after loading. LONG takeup with a crisp letoff. The only difference is the AS trigger then goes to SA mode without the full reset of the LEM.
If you're looking for a game gun, a tricked out M&P or Glock with a light, short-reset trigger is probably your best choice.
sigmundsauer
12-06-08, 13:07
I had an early M&P 9mm. It was OK, and I kind of liked it with the small grip. When I first got it the trigger had a crisp but somewhat heavy break after the light takeup. It was probably around the advertised 6.5 pounds.
After a few hundred rounds through it, the trigger parts wore in and the pull dropped to around 6 pounds, but it had developed some nasty gritty creep - just terrible. I was reasonably accurate with it despite the trigger, and it was 100% reliable, but overall it was kind of boring to shoot.
I traded it towards a P30 because the grip is about perfect for my hands, and I like that it is almost 100% ambidextrous. The M&P was pretty good in that regard, but the P30 is better. Overall quality seems to be quite a bit better than the M&P, but you do pay for it. The SA on the P30 is better than the M&P DAO, but naturally the DA on the P30 is heavier.
Shortly thereafter I got an HK45 which is simply outstanding. If I could have only one .45 this would be it. I just need to get ambi safety levers installed sometime. I also just picked up a P30L because I like the P30 so much. I didn't like the way the USP series recoiled, but the new HK's shoot really soft.
Almost every time this kind of discussion comes up, people recommend getting the trigger on the M&P modified. If it's a competition or range only gun, that's one thing. But getting an M&P modified to the point that it's really an SAO without a safety is not a good idea if you have any inkling of carrying or using it for HD. Carrying a Glock with a 3.5 lb connector is also not the best idea, although the light connector with the NY trigger is supposed to be DA revolver-like
The HK light LEM trigger as actually very similar to the Walther P99 AS trigger when the trigger is left in the forward position after loading. LONG takeup with a crisp letoff. The only difference is the AS trigger then goes to SA mode without the full reset of the LEM.
If you're looking for a game gun, a tricked out M&P or Glock with a light, short-reset trigger is probably your best choice.
Interesting observation regarding the P99, LeftSig.
I used a P99 for a while. That is one rapid firing pistol! Extremely short trigger reset. But I found it to recoil very sharply for a 9mm, and I hear the .40's are even worse. However the pistol was extremely accurate with a nice SA. I find the "quick action" setting with the cocked striker and light first shot take up to be too light. It does offer some of the same first shot advantages of the LEM, but the P99's short take up only really works on the first, hand-charged shot, after that it goes into a traditional SA mode with decocker. I like the simplicity and overall inherent accuracy and safety of the P2000's LEM the best, which is why I dumped my P99. My P99's were also extremely reliable but finicky with what type of bullets they would chamber. Occasionally I'd find a round that the bullet's ogive would interfere with the short rifling leade preventing fully chambering. I wanted a 100% pistol so I dumped the P99 for the HK P2000 LEM or a SIG and haven't looked back. I maintain a Glock in inventory simply because it is such a ubiquitous design that every handgunner should be familiar with if not master too.
Tim
Todd, I've not tried the 3.5# connector and NY1 combo, simply because my Glock gets neglected compared to my other pistols. But should give it a try someday. Sounds like it would make a good combination, however I believe that one of the inherently safe attributes of HK's LEM is the relatively long take up on the front end. Trigger prep takes the slack out in an instant but there's no mistaking where you are in the trigger stroke prior to sear break. I do like the Glock trigger though.
FWIW, while the actual trigger pull distance doesn't change, the 3.5/NY thing does change the takeup. There is resistance right from the beginning of the trigger press, almost like a DA revolver. As I said, I set up M&P's up similarly and one of my motivations is because I like tactile indication that the trigger is moving from beginning to end.
1911s are of the few guns that can be dry fired extensively without snap caps or ill effects, IMO.
True only for 1911-pattern guns without firing pin block mechanisms, at least from what I've seen & heard. Never broke one myself, but also never did any extensive dry firing with one.
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