Question to our LE members: Help me educate a friend about OIS's/Aftermath?

[Diamondback]

A friend in Europe has some misperceptions about LE and Officer-Involved Shootings that I'd like to try to tackle, so I thought I'd ask the M4C LE Hive Mind to doublecheck my foggy memories from shooting with local cops in college and things they said, help explain why other than the odd bad apple here and there, when an OIS happens it's because that officer sees it as the "least worst" of nothing but bad options available, not because of wanting to exercise the firepower you're entrusted with.

Back then on the range, one of my LE friends had brought in a binder that seemed as thick as my forearm, FULL, noting that that was just a TASTE of the paperwork he'd have to fill out in the aftermath of an OIS. This description may be made fuzzy by age of memory, and God knows I misremember things more often than I care to admit, but IIRC here's his description, paraphrased a little but otherwise to the best of my memory:

"If I'm in an OIS, my problems have only just begun. First there's the mandatory Admin Leave, which means I'm not on patrol standing between my community and those who would prey upon it, or helping lost kids and town drunks find their way home, talking down neighbors' disagreements or any of a zillion-and-one other little things we do in a typical duty day that the public and even us cops take for granted. It also means my brother officers having to do MY work in addition to their own, and nobody wants to let his squadmates down. Second, that leave may be UNPAID, which means several weeks that I'm not feeding my family or paying our bills. And then there's the paperwork nightmare, as if there wasn't already enough of that just in a typical shift. Not to mention Psych Evals, Internal Affairs wanting to mount a cop's head on the wall and deciding yours will do, opportunistic politicians who proclaim 'Guilty Even If PROVEN Innocent,' certain demagogues wanting a feather in their cap at the cost of your scalp... so yeah, if I pull that trigger I do so believing that that bureaucratic Hell is preferable only to myself, a brother officer or a community member being killed or grievously harmed, or a dangerous offender escaping to continue threatening my community and those who inhabit it."

Fact-check my recollection, please? And if you guys have anything to add about "Top Ten Reasons I Really Want To NEVER See An/Another OIS" that you're willing to share I'd appreciate it--there's too much "Us Vs Them" and not enough "try to see the other guy's POV" out there at the moment, and I'm hoping that maybe this thread can help take a small chip out of it.

[C-grunt]

Every department and state are going to do things different. I can tell you what I went through a couple years ago in my shooting. Some things have changed now with the inclusion of body cameras.

Directly after the shooting I was taken away from the other officers on the scene.
Homicide detectives, administrative staff, internal affairs, and the county attorney showed up. My union got me a lawyer, not that I needed one (he even said it... obviously justified with many witnesses) but it's standard practice.
IA took inventory of my equipment and guns.
I gave a quick interview to IA which is obligatory to my job.
I gave a full interview and walk through to the detectives and county attorney. This is not obligatory, but like Ive said before Ill be damned if I let the story at the scene be told by other people without my side being heard.
Afterwards I was on administrative leave for a week
A week afterwards I had to go to IA and gave a full interview, again obligatory, with several supervisors
That same week I went for my first mental health eval.
After that I was placed on a non enforcement position for 3 weeks. I ended up in our air unit riding in the helicopters and plane.
During those 3 weeks I had two more mental health meetings.
I also met with our training group to go over any possible "tactical" mistakes and to see if any future training is needed. They also ask if I believe I was not given training that would have helped during my incident
8 months later I was cleared by the County Attorney's Office
A year later I went in front of a use of force board containing several officers, command staff, training staff, and citizens to determine if my use of force was within policy and followed training guidelines.

Other than that you have the optics outside of the department. No one protested my shooting. It actually didn't receive a whole lot of news attention. However there are websites that have my name, complete work info, and a picture of me that are calling me a murderer. It doesn't bother me, but my family isn't happy about that.

[ggammell]

That’s a very solid response from an organization that has it down. In places that aren’t frequently using deadly force, it will no be as smooth. Most of those steps will be taken but it’s an On the fly operation.

[C-grunt]

That’s a very solid response from an organization that has it down. In places that aren’t frequently using deadly force, it will no be as smooth. Most of those steps will be taken but it’s an On the fly operation.

Things really changed a few years ago after one of our officers committed suicide after a legal but awful shoot.

[Vandal]

The documentary Officer Involved directed by Patrick Shaver is a good inside look. It was recently pulled by Amazon who still isn't telling Shaver why it was pulled.
Shaver was a cop and I do believe that made it easier for those he interviewed to open up to him.

Frankly, I'm terrified of how my agency will react if we have an OIS and have every belief that officer will be left out to dry.

[rocsteady]

The documentary Officer Involved directed by Patrick Shaver is a good inside look. It was recently pulled by Amazon who still isn't telling Shaver why it was pulled.
Shaver was a cop and I do believe that made it easier for those he interviewed to open up to him.

Frankly, I'm terrified of how my agency will react if we have an OIS and have every belief that officer will be left out to dry.

After seeing how my agency handled less horrible issues than someone getting shot and killed, I was among MANY officers who sought extra insurance and made a point to learn EXACTLY what to do in the unlikely event I was involved in an OIS. To a man, every decent legal expert I consulted who had dealt with shootings made it clear to say nothing until talking with the attorney as the adrenaline and reaction to the moment can cause you to say something that might later be used to crucify you, even in a perfectly legal and justified OIS. It appeared to me then and even more now that even a perfectly justified shooting can most likely be the end of your successful career in policing if things don't go 100% right.

[diving dave]

Mine was back in 2001, and for the most part the process was pretty much the same as C-Grunts. We didn't have any mental health type interview, but those of us involved did get a round table sit down with our Departments Chaplain. He was a Vietnam Vet and a great guy. My shooting was perfect timing, as I had 2 weeks scheduled vacation, so I ended up with 3 weeks off....:cool:
My incident was pretty cut and dried, as the A-hole shot numerous rounds at me and another Officer. And I hate to say it, but no body really cared when I shot him because he was white. Our Union President came into the Homicide office and asked if I was OK, and what was the race of the suspect. He was visually relieved when I told him it was a white guy......

[sundance435]

OISs are complicated from a personal, legal perspective. On one hand, you've got department policies which may require you speak to IA, detectives, etc., immediately. On the other, it is not advisable in any situation that you speak with someone other than your attorney in the immediate aftermath. Your 5th amendment right does not necessarily protect you from administrative punishment. Even if it did, in the end, think of the time and money you're going to spend to get that resolution. It's even more important given today's climate. You're going to feel even more intense pressure from the agency, but it's never been as important to make sure you're going through your attorney.

I'm interested to hear from those of you that have been involved, or know someone involved, as to whether there was a conflict there between the agency and private counsel and whether it was resolved.

[rocsteady]

A tried and true method that I have firsthand accounts of working, is to ask to go to the hospital afterwards to get checked out; it buys some time.

[ggammell]

A tried and true method that I have firsthand accounts of working, is to ask to go to the hospital afterwards to get checked out; it buys some time.

That’s in our SOP. You will go for a medical evaluation. We’ve learned a few things the hard way.

[PD Sgt.]

At my agency, immediately post shooting you are removed from the scene and taken to a nearby police facility. An officer with prior personal experience with OISs, as well as additional training is assigned to stay with you for the remainder of the event. A union attorney also responds for you.

A team of detectives respond who are on call for these events in addition to their regular duties respond. They will run the scene and conduct the criminal investigation. Our version of IAB also responds but usually will only observe, if they even stay. They are not really involved until it becomes administrative (following the criminal investigation) and found out of policy. A representative of the Shooting Board responds as well for a quick brief. Other COC may respond but are kept well out of the scene.

The officer will be photographed from all sides, and damage to uniform/equipment/injuries will be detailed and photographed separately. A round count is conducted to determine shots fired and the officer’s pistol is bagged as evidence. A loaner pistol is issued on the spot, so the officer is never disarmed in public view. The officer is asked to do a brief walk through and has the option of giving a statement. Following all this the officer is released on administrative leave until they can qual on the new loaner pistol and complete an evaluation by a agency contracted psychologist.

Witness officers (if any) and all video is downloaded and locked down. Within 5 working days the officer is called in to give a statement. As the investigation is criminal, this can be declined and is done with their attorney. To my knowledge no one has ever refused. The officer is allowed to review the video prior to their statement.

Following the statement, the investigative supervisor will report any concerns or discrepancies to the Chief’s office. Assuming there are no concerns, the officer remains on duty.

The investigation is forwarded to the Prosecutor’s Office in the county of occurrence. Assuming a no bill, it then goes to administrative review. Here any violations of policy (not law) will be addressed. Violations may result in training or discipline, depending on circumstances.

Long term, most every OIS will end up in Federal Court. The family of the person shot, or the person themself if they survive, will usually file suit in the hopes the jurisdiction will settle, even if no violations of law or policy occur. This can last years, as anyone familiar with the process will tell you.

[Firefly]

Every place is different. Just know these universal facts:

-You will be sequestered
-You will have blood/urine/hair drawn
-No matter how it is dressed up or presented to you; it WILL be a criminal investigation.
-Expect to hear Miranda/Garrity
-Every last possible effort will be made to find fault in your actions
-When the “worst” of it is over; you will have to see a shrink.

In all honesty, the aftermath and investigation are worse than the actual shoot.

The only advice anyone can give you is to request medical attention, notify PBA rep, and demand three sleep cycles before making any statements.

It’s not “gaming” the post shoot investigation. You, the officer, are actually a victim. The fight may have gone your way but the fact remains that you were in a fight for your life. You have rights.

[Diamondback]

Thank you for both your perspectives and manning the Thin Blue Line, all of you; and good to see you back again, Fly. :)

[Vandal]

Words of Wisdom

Holy crap, welcome back man.

I should add, my first agency actually had a course for the new hires and lateral deputies taught by the firearms team on what would happen following your OIS. It was fantastic and I still have my notes from it. For the non-LE members in here any internal investigation we have, use of force investigation, or even a pursuit review officers/deputies are assumed guilty until proven innocent. Nothing is more fun than fighting for your life in the dark on the side of the road, only to have your admin only believe what the meth'd out suspect says from jail and almost nothing you say.