View Full Version : Sling Mounts and slings in general on an Ar15 after seeing the Kyle shooting
So ive always been a 2 point sling guy, whether it be stock mounted and rail mounted or end plate mounted and rail mounted.
After seeing the shooting positions Kyle engaged from while on his back, Im re-considering my stock to rail 2 point sling preference.
I am a huge fan of 2 to 1 slings but figured id bring it up as its always a big debate.
Lets not make this into a what brand is better but more of a "man, he smoked 3 guys while retaining his weapon" thread.
I was going to post something along these lines..you beat me to it:D
Would also like to hear about 2-1 sling recommendations.... I currently use VTACs 2 point but the ability to switch to one point is interesting. I have a one point Amazon cheapy for my Extar EP9, but it is range toy.
Magpul ASAP provides excellent ambi manipulation.
QD endplates work too.
I need to train transition more.
The last carbine class I took we did a lot of shooting from our weak side. I found that with my usual buttstock/forend mounted sling it was difficult to transition from strong to weak side. But when I moved the sling from the buttstock to the QD endplate that transition became much easier and seamless.
The last carbine class I took we did a lot of shooting from our weak side. I found that with my usual buttstock/forend mounted sling it was difficult to transition from strong to weak side. But when I moved the sling from the buttstock to the QD endplate that transition became much easier and seamless.
I took Urban Defense with Paul Howe a few years ago. As part of the class we did single man building clearing. I encountered a target on a hard left corner, i transitioned and shot it, moved on.
During the debrief, Paul, who was right behind me the whole way asked me why I transitioned for that shot...I gave the usual reasoning about cover etc....
Paul says, "Just step out and kill him". "You are never going to be as fast or accurate with that off hand, just kill him and get it over"
That was an interesting discussion....
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-05-20, 09:44
I'm a fan of 2 point to single point convertible slings. They allow you to take advantage of the positive attributes of both while minimizing the impact of the negative ones.
I'm not a fan of just single point slings unless it's for a pdw/subgun that doesn't hang low enough to smack your twig and berries.
The_War_Wagon
09-05-20, 10:20
I'm not a fan of just single point slings unless it's for a pdw/subgun that doesn't hang low enough to smack your twig and berries.
Having learned my lesson the HARD way on that one :blink: , I still run a 2-pt. on my Bren 805 pistol... JUST to be safe.
I’m curious what about the 2-point sling the OP and others thinks isn’t adequate for retention shooting or general retention of the rifle?
I run my DIY adjustable 2-point from the stock to in front of the receiver. I can transition to weak side while still slung and can run it as a 1-point “neck sling” if I wanted a little more maneuverability at the expense of a little retention. There’s really nothing I can’t do with a 2-point that I can do with a 1-point. Not true the other way around.
That said, I’m of the same mindset as above regarding staying with the strong side and being faster as opposed to switching shoulders to stay behind cover. Unless I’m static and holding a corner for example, I want to be on the strong side where 90%+ of my training is done.
That said, I’m of the same mindset as above regarding staying with the strong side and being faster as opposed to switching shoulders to stay behind cover. Unless I’m static and holding a corner for example, I want to be on the strong side where 90%+ of my training is done.
I was really switched on in that class. That was the only constructive criticism he had for me in the entire 3 days....Stuck with me...
It really makes sense in many ways. Although Im guessing when he "stepped out and killed a guy" there were probably three other hard men right there with him.....
Its an interesting discussion and contrary to "doctrine"....
Not gonna lie - if you are alone and surrounded by a mob intent on killing you, your sling selection is the least of your worries.
Andy
Mysteryman
09-05-20, 11:55
Not gonna lie - if you are alone and surrounded by a mob intent on killing you, your sling selection is the least of your worries.
Andy
Agreed. Situational awareness and tactics are more important than gear selection.
Traditionally, everything about Kyles Set up was wrong, at least that’s what we’ve been taught. Ironically, I think that’s the exact thing that saved his life.
The rifle hung too low from the body, it was a single point, I’m sure it kept hitting him in the balls as he ran.
However all that together gave him the dexterity to fight back while running away, and to fight back from awkward positions on the ground, also didn’t allow the rifle to be striped away from him.
I still think 2 point is better, but I’ve come to understand that’s for a stand and fight, Kyle set up worked as a “last resort” retreating set up.
It’s Defensive vs offensive.
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I was really switched on in that class. That was the only constructive criticism he had for me in the entire 3 days....Stuck with me...
It really makes sense in many ways. Although Im guessing when he "stepped out and killed a guy" there were probably three other hard men right there with him.....
Its an interesting discussion and contrary to "doctrine"....
Yeah that’s a good point too, but may not matter being the #1 man around a corner or through a door way, I think it’s situation dependent and also depends on your level of training with weak side shooting.
Not to derail, but is this the course you’re referring to? CSAT Urban Defense (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRCCy4XvpRzJfzOvk6VWHmkSDQt2TIrfXBtmRGJ20ZELFFFyiBayui3hSZAnXVhug/pub)
I’ve always wanted to train with PH since I live fairly close, just never got it on the schedule. Was the course worth the money?
Yeah that’s a good point too, but may not matter being the #1 man around a corner or through a door way, I think it’s situation dependent and also depends on your level of training with weak side shooting.
Not to derail, but is this the course you’re referring to? CSAT Urban Defense (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRCCy4XvpRzJfzOvk6VWHmkSDQt2TIrfXBtmRGJ20ZELFFFyiBayui3hSZAnXVhug/pub)
I’ve always wanted to train with PH since I live fairly close, just never got it on the schedule. Was the course worth the money?
Yes, that was the class. Absolutely worth it. Paul is an excellent instructor, he is in the process-for some time now actually, of retiring. If you want to do it, you better get it done!
They don't do Urban Defense all that often--its a "thinking class" not an "up- bang" class. Its hard for them to fill.... Also, best if you take a friend as several of the drills are movement in bounds....
Before we go changing our sling positions, that we are used to for years, do we know that Kyle's shooting couldn't have been done with a 2pt?
I’m curious what about the 2-point sling the OP and others thinks isn’t adequate for retention shooting or general retention of the rifle?
I run my DIY adjustable 2-point from the stock to in front of the receiver. I can transition to weak side while still slung and can run it as a 1-point “neck sling” if I wanted a little more maneuverability at the expense of a little retention. There’s really nothing I can’t do with a 2-point that I can do with a 1-point. Not true the other way around.
That said, I’m of the same mindset as above regarding staying with the strong side and being faster as opposed to switching shoulders to stay behind cover. Unless I’m static and holding a corner for example, I want to be on the strong side where 90%+ of my training is done.
I never stated it was adequate for retention. In my post I said im reconsidering buttstock to front of the rail for a 2pt and going back to end plate and back of the rail. In the videos you see his attackers try to take his carbine as hes being struck with a skateboard. Its possible that running the sling only around your neck (like I do most of the time) could have failed to retain it.
This thread blew up quick and the intention isnt to make people switch setups but think about and discuss why his setup did work for his situation. For those saying im sure he got smacked in the nuts. In the vids, hes holding his rifle the entire time hes running.
I was really switched on in that class. That was the only constructive criticism he had for me in the entire 3 days....Stuck with me...
It really makes sense in many ways. Although Im guessing when he "stepped out and killed a guy" there were probably three other hard men right there with him.....
Its an interesting discussion and contrary to "doctrine"....
Its not really contrary to doctrine anymore. At this point, its common practice to just stay strongside. I do still practice transitioning sometimes, though not as often as I should. I’ve never really been fond of it (see my earlier post about my goofy left eye), really. But even if its not our typical way to go around a corner, we should still be able to do it wronghanded, just in case. And we should be able to defend a position around the left.
I tend to run 2 point slings, and the swivels are not always in the same place. I do not mount to the middle of the handguard, only to the muzzle end or receiver end of it. At the 9 or 10 o’clock. In the back, I use the back of the receiver sometimes, but prefer the top of the stock. I do not use the toe of the stock. I’m not too picky, really, except for not using the middle of the handguard or toe of the stock.
I do have a single point on a short 9mm, and it works as long as you don’t transition to your secondary. Then it’ll get you in the pecker when you run, unless you keep a hand on it. Its a good setup if your only concern is retention, though.
Three point slings are Hepatitis.
Never cared much for single points. All my working guns have rapidly adjustable 2-points, mostly VTAC, some VCAS. They're thrown over my head when shooting the gun, and I'll wear them when carrying the gun. Properly set up and with some practice it's easy to dive in and out of them. This technique makes transitions easy.
I'm a big advocate of being proficient on both sides of the body, and transitions have a place, but a lot more is made of transitions than is usually merited.
They're thrown over my head when shooting the gun, and I'll wear them when carrying the gun. Properly set up and with some practice it's easy to dive in and out of them.
“Swimming”. We should also master getting out of a seatbelt in gear with similar fluidity.
I dunno.
Breaking into a traphouse or constantly in and out of cars, I like a single point.
If I may be walking a lot or I want to do a Hasty Sling, a 2 point.
That’s just me. I mean you all are kinda parsing the kit of a teenager who probably just threw on what was handed to him by his dad or uncle or something.
I tried the magpul sling and at the time it was okay but ultimately I quit messing with it.
My first "tac sling" was a 3 point on an MP-5! I've been using BFG or the newer Magpul 2 point on everything since the early 2000's. After using and training with them, any of them, I think we all can learn to use any of them to a proficient level. We still learn to appreciate aspects of certain designs but it's not really a limiting factor in most situations.
A really fortunate 17 year old that won based on skill or luck is not a reason to change what you've done for years or even decades.
I used mostly 2 point slings during my 22 years in the Army. However, I found them to kind of tight for my frame so we used barracks-made extenders.
Just for a tidbit of information, the current Army sling for the M4 has been made by the Susquehanna Association for the Blind. In fact since the FDR administration, American blind organizations have made a lot of items for the military, including helmet chin straps, helmet cat eyes, and even scabbards for all series of military bayonet right thru the M9.
During Vietnam, the M8A1 scabbard was made by the Philadelphia Working Home for the blind.
I used mostly 2 point slings during my 22 years in the Army. However, I found them to kind of tight for my frame so we used barracks-made extenders.
Just for a tidbit of information, the current Army sling for the M4 has been made by the Susquehanna Association for the Blind. In fact since the FDR administration, American blind organizations have made a lot of items for the military, including helmet chin straps, helmet cat eyes, and even scabbards for all series of military bayonet right thru the M9.
During Vietnam, the M8A1 scabbard was made by the Philadelphia Working Home for the blind.
I like that. It’s heartwarming.
Blind people still looking out for you.
I have a bunch of ‘Nam era buckle slings that I shan’t part with. A must for any A1 rifle
I never stated it was adequate for retention. In my post I said im reconsidering buttstock to front of the rail for a 2pt and going back to end plate and back of the rail. In the videos you see his attackers try to take his carbine as hes being struck with a skateboard. Its possible that running the sling only around your neck (like I do most of the time) could have failed to retain it.
This thread blew up quick and the intention isnt to make people switch setups but think about and discuss why his setup did work for his situation. For those saying im sure he got smacked in the nuts. In the vids, hes holding his rifle the entire time hes running.
I dunno, my sling just isn’t my primary retention device. I leave that to my hands. And honestly that’s really what The Kid did too...it wasn’t the sling that saved him from being de-rifled, he kept positive control the whole time.
Now if I had to fight with my hands, I’d much rather have two points of contact to secure the rifle than one. I’m also not a fan of the points of contact being buttstock to end of the rail like you mentioned, mostly because it just seems to be in the way of my support hand. On the other end of the spectrum is attaching at the end plate and in front of the receiver, like you mention possibly moving to...this is as close to 1-point as you’ll get with a 2-pt sling. A nice sweet spot for me is where I mentioned before, buttstock and front of receiver. It gives enough control of the weapon while allowing you to stay maneuverable with a little practice/sling technique. I’ve tried 1-pt, and all these positions above with 2-pt., btw. Of course some of this is subjective or personal preference, but this is just what I found works for me. JMO and worth about what you paid for it...no refunds.
ColtSeavers
09-05-20, 19:57
Why would anyone reconsider all of their own experience and everything they know because Kyle had an Angel on his shoulder? You want to run his setup? Cool, but make sure you bring that Angel.
Why would anyone reconsider all of their own experience and everything they know because Kyle had an Angel on his shoulder? You want to run his setup? Cool, but make sure you bring that Angel.
This is where I’m at too, and said about the same in the other thread. He did a lot of things “wrong” With the “wrong” gear but managed to come out alive. My biggest compliment to his performance is his PID and staying pretty calm through it all.
ColtSeavers
09-05-20, 20:59
This is where I’m at too, and said about the same in the other thread. He did a lot of things “wrong” With the “wrong” gear but managed to come out alive. My biggest compliment to his performance is his PID and staying pretty calm through it all.
Yes, that kid was switched on and is a credit to ability over gear.
I have a Magpul MS1 QDM sling so have choice to use a single point with the end plate or a two point. I tend to use a two point but I like option of what to choose.
I read something today in light of the Kyle Rittenhouse thing. He managed to retain control of his rifle, which was good. However, to make SURE it doesn't come off you completely, somebody mentioned using a retaining device (carabiner) attached to your sling and your plate carrier/chest rig. Sounded like a decent idea to me, and one I hadn't previously considered.
Ned Christiansen
09-10-20, 18:28
I don't know if these are relevant to the OP's inquiry but here are some other recent sling discussions (mostly about what "not" to have).
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?218279-IDF-style-Paracord-sling-mounts/page2
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?187949-Sub-awesome-sling-setups
I read something today in light of the Kyle Rittenhouse thing. He managed to retain control of his rifle, which was good. However, to make SURE it doesn't come off you completely, somebody mentioned using a retaining device (carabiner) attached to your sling and your plate carrier/chest rig. Sounded like a decent idea to me, and one I hadn't previously considered.
All I can think of with that is getting hung up or tangled on something. But I’m that guy.
Sent from 80ms in the future
All I can think of with that is getting hung up or tangled on something. But I’m that guy.
Sent from 80ms in the future
I had the same thought plus I don't want to be tied to a 3 foot lever with someone else on the end of it.
EDIT - I want to clarify my statement. I use 2 point slings, which provide retention. I would not use a second attachment such as a carabiner, etc.
Andy
I read something today in light of the Kyle Rittenhouse thing. He managed to retain control of his rifle, which was good. However, to make SURE it doesn't come off you completely, somebody mentioned using a retaining device (carabiner) attached to your sling and your plate carrier/chest rig. Sounded like a decent idea to me, and one I hadn't previously considered.
Kyle had a single point sling on his AR so those criminals never were able to pull the AR out of his control. When they tried one was kill and guy which I will call, “canoe arm” never had a chance. Has, “canoe arm” been charged yet since is a criminal he lost his all of his privileges of owning a firearm.
All I can think of with that is getting hung up or tangled on something. But I’m that guy.
Sent from 80ms in the future
There is that to think about. I probably would be, too.
ViniVidivici
09-11-20, 17:34
No, I only run 2pt quick adjust on long guns, stock to front end.
I train and shoot often.
Not changing anything.
Glock9mm1990
09-13-20, 19:23
Kyle had a single point sling on his AR so those criminals never were able to pull the AR out of his control. When they tried one was kill and guy which I will call, “canoe arm” never had a chance. Has, “canoe arm” been charged yet since is a criminal he lost his all of his privileges of owning a firearm.
Canoe arm won’t be charged because simping to BLM means you can get away with anything.
For those who want the option: https://www.vikingtactics.com/product-p/vtac-2to1.htm
Single point slings are tough on the body when you have to navigate over obstacles. All slings can get caught up. The teams used a weapons cache attachment to secure their arms while using a single or double point sling. They help doing maritime ops on boats bouncing around on high seas. They help in vehicle borne ops. They help while doing standing and roving watch. It certainly makes them difficult to take in a CQB environment.
I prefer PFC's no-sling modus operandi, it offers more flexibility for a high speed fight. But I need a sling: my nerves are damaged from my service and I sometimes drop things. I also enjoy the sling support, and I can shoot very well with them. I was trained on MP5's for VBSS and many other small arms during my service.
Post service I have trained and fitted my carbines and rifles with two-point slings. I now use the BFG lite sling with the tri-glide adjust, mount fore and aft. It really comes down to body mechanics and abilities. The ONLY single-point sling use is for SBR and sub gun use for me: and I need a cache of sorts to secure it to my gear while moving.
The BFG Vickers type slings are my favorite, and I have done a good deal of training and shooting with them. I'm a big guy. I still have enough room to adjust the tri-glide on the fly. I use it to cinch up my high ready, and loosen to alternate while shooting ambidextrous. I also cinch a bit to drop to secondary. It's a win win. I can alternate from my strong to weak side just as fast as a single-point sling, and it allows me to lock up tighter for better recoil management. I was also taught to shoot distance with a battle rifle (M14) via sling, and it really shines long distance shooting with irons full prone and otherwise. Being taught my NSW Navy fleet contractors originally, I often held port high. This raises hell with many civilian and Army training.
I also came to appreciate carrying low and now can point shoot incredibly fast from low ready with the two-point BFG sling, and transition incredibly fast while navigating around barriers from left to right etc. I can assure you I can deploy my carbine for a personal attack just as well using the BFG sling versus the single-point type.
I still use a single-point on my PDW. And two-point on all my carbines and rifles. I do not rely on the sling in CQB, which is why I appreciate PFC's modus operandi: but you will not catch me without a sling due to my personal limitations and years of carrying guns around.
The young man who was attacked did a fantastic job defending his life. I am incredibly happy he survived and I am 100% in support of his use of self defense. That said I was trained in a way that would have resulted in a completely different outcome: I would not be in the protest to begin with. The one truth in the matter is that having a gun, ammo, and a sling, and the ability to move as fast as possible is critical to surviving a violent attack. He also utilized deadly force only on those who attacked him, and this was impressive. His mental capacity to function while staring at the white elephant was amazing, and that is what saved his ass aside from his simple kit. And often times KISS and minimalism is the way to go when developing a load-out.
So lessons learned: it's less important in how you carry. It's more critical to be able to egress, shoot and move with purpose. And the old surprise, speed, and violence of action principle was applied by the young man well as the threats mounted repeatedly. His willingness to use fighting spirit was also a big factor in his survival.
The last carbine class I took we did a lot of shooting from our weak side. I found that with my usual buttstock/forend mounted sling it was difficult to transition from strong to weak side. But when I moved the sling from the buttstock to the QD endplate that transition became much easier and seamless.
Due solely to my 2 gun experience which sometimes requires transition to the off hand side my rear sling mount is at the endplate and close to the upper receiver on the handguard. Better control than a single point [which I tried but quickly disliked for all the same reasons as everyone else], not as stable as moving the attachment points to the ends but better for the required transitions.
That said transitioning to off hand and using the non-dominant eye is slow, way slower and less accurate than doing has Mr. Howe said. Were it not required I would just step out and make the shot.
The biggest lesson to take from Kenosha is don't fall down when running away. Work on your fitness, balance and agility.
Canoe arm won’t be charged because simping to BLM means you can get away with anything.
I find it incredible that these idiots were not locked up for attacking the kid. You can see a felonious incendiary device attack on the video: molotov. What part of protest involves violence and looting? Democrap leaders need to be removed from office for this ASAP. Full Article VI violations across the board in many cities. The courts need to uphold law and order, or the judges need to be removed. Period. Enough chatter: demanding action. I'm okay with curfews on protests, there's no reasonable logic behind protesting at night in an uncontrolled environment. I support ending racial and social injustice, but moreover I support law and order. We share this nation, we do not get to demand anything we do not earn.
I find it incredible that these idiots were not locked up for attacking the kid. You can see a felonious incendiary device attack on the video: molotov. What part of protest involves violence and looting? Democrap leaders need to be removed from office for this ASAP.
That video was purposely edited and distributed. There was no molotov, it was something in a plastic bag. We're being manipulated into violence by powers that want to destroy us. And it's working.
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Interesting, but does not negate the fact that they attacked him. The ones who attacked are dead or maimed so lesson learned.
Interesting, but does not negate the fact that they attacked him. The ones who attacked are dead or maimed so lesson learned.Did they "attack" him or attempt to apprehend a possible murder suspect based on unverified info being disseminated from a crowd? I don't know enough about the initial shooting to draw any conclusion. The real lesson in all of this is not to go stupid places to do stupid things with stupid people even if one of those people is your mother.
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I dunno.
Breaking into a traphouse or constantly in and out of cars, I like a single point.
If I may be walking a lot or I want to do a Hasty Sling, a 2 point.
That’s just me. I mean you all are kinda parsing the kit of a teenager who probably just threw on what was handed to him by his dad or uncle or something.
I tried the magpul sling and at the time it was okay but ultimately I quit messing with it.
Not gonna lie - if you are alone and surrounded by a mob intent on killing you, your sling selection is the least of your worries.
Andy
/thread.
Good grief... :rolleyes:
For participation's sake;
I run the same 2pt padded VCAS I've been running since 2011, attached endplate to rear of rail via QD button. I'm not a super high-speed shooter, but it has yet to impede me in most positions (so far), with or without gear (PC/CR) thanks to the magical quick adjust tab.
I did have a bit of struggle transitioning shoulders at a CQB class, even running the QA tab out, so I dropped an arm out and just ran it hanging around my neck. Probably something wrong with that technique somehow (and I was VERY thankful for the pad, which worked great in this role), but it worked. Then when I was done needing to transition, another 2 seconds to drop my arm back in to go back to 2pt mode.
I think it's telling that, aside from the Magpul MS slings, pretty much EVERY other 'serious use' sling on the current market is a fixed 2pt.
I can see the single-point usefulness, as some others have mentioned, for a super-short "sub-gun under a jacket" thing.
I am NOT playing the single-point game with a 16" 8.5lb rifle, and it seems to me most serious shooters feel the same.
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