View Full Version : Who has luck with cheap / Franken AR's?
I sure don't.
Last AR upper I got was a new Model 1 Sales 20 in A2 clone. Didnt cycle at all.
Fast-forward a couple years to this week and I test a buddies brand-new PSA 10.3 upper on a proven pistol lower. Didnt cycle at all.
I've bought a new S&W AR, built a 7.62x39 pistol, one or two other used AR's I've bought, even tried a new 2017 Mini 14 and a like-new Armalite AR180B. None of these guns ran well.
Good mags, (NHMTG, Brownells, Pmags, Okay) good ammo, (brass Federal, PMC mostly) cleaned and lightly to moderately lubricated.
I have an Armalite DEF10 that works well so far. I've had two BCM uppers that ran fin except for when I tried steel case ammo. (Shoulda kept those uppers)
Otherwise every cheap kind of AR hasn't worked out for me. Yet 90% of AR's out there ARE cheap or franken rifles and the majority of owners are happy and say they work great.
I dont get it. When I've participated in competitions the guns run great for the most part. Most of them have lots of time and money poured into them.
Is everyone not an AR mechanic/pro builder or doesn't have a tier one AR full of crap or does hardly anyone fire their guns more than a mag or two?
Where I work the Police had some franken guns built for them, with suppressors. Theyve had issues and the company who made them is gone. They get carried but they dont get fired much anymore. I think to boost confidence they only fire about a dozen shots in rare training to reduce malfunctions.
I'm annoyed because its 2020 and I STILL cant trust an AR15 to work because they just dont well enough for me.
robbins290
09-10-20, 11:18
I have a M&P sport II and a few PSA builds i use as learners. We beat the crap out of them. Never had a issue besides a crappy carry handle sight wont stay zero'd on one. I also have slapped some cheap sub par kits together all ran with brass case bulk 5.56/223 ammo. I have high end ar's and $200 dollar ar's, they all work. I have about 20. Each for there own role. And they all shoot and are good out to 200 yards.
Just a question, do you keep your ar15 lubed?
7.62x39 ARs used to have issues, especially mags. Don't know about today, never interested in them
Stop buying or building weird franken guns with weird workarounds for weird calibers
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Devildawg2531
09-10-20, 11:45
I sure don't.
Last AR upper I got was a new Model 1 Sales 20 in A2 clone. Didnt cycle at all.
Fast-forward a couple years to this week and I test a buddies brand-new PSA 10.3 upper on a proven pistol lower. Didnt cycle at all.
I've bought a new S&W AR, built a 7.62x39 pistol, one or two other used AR's I've bought, even tried a new 2017 Mini 14 and a like-new Armalite AR180B. None of these guns ran well.
Good mags, (NHMTG, Brownells, Pmags, Okay) good ammo, (brass Federal, PMC mostly) cleaned and lightly to moderately lubricated.
I have an Armalite DEF10 that works well so far. I've had two BCM uppers that ran fin except for when I tried steel case ammo. (Shoulda kept those uppers)
Otherwise every cheap kind of AR hasn't worked out for me. Yet 90% of AR's out there ARE cheap or franken rifles and the majority of owners are happy and say they work great.
I dont get it. When I've participated in competitions the guns run great for the most part. Most of them have lots of time and money poured into them.
Is everyone not an AR mechanic/pro builder or doesn't have a tier one AR full of crap or does hardly anyone fire their guns more than a mag or two?
Where I work the Police had some franken guns built for them, with suppressors. Theyve had issues and the company who made them is gone. They get carried but they dont get fired much anymore. I think to boost confidence they only fire about a dozen shots in rare training to reduce malfunctions.
I'm annoyed because its 2020 and I STILL cant trust an AR15 to work because they just dont well enough for me.
I don't understand the logic of buying cheap AR's or assembling from cheap parts. There are many great choices from proven quality manufacturers and they cost within $600 of the junk Franken guns. Doesn't make sense to me to buy build cheap and have a garbage gun vs spend a little more and have quality. I have 3 quality AR's and they are almost 100% reliable... A buddy of mine just got a pistol AR from PSA and I'm curious to shoot his and compare it with my BCM pistol AR
I have purchased complete uppers by BCM, LMT, PSA. They have all run without failure, the PSA more aggressively than I liked. I have multiple 1000s of rounds through the BCM without a bobble, certainly more than 2000 through the PSA, maybe 1000 through the LMT.
The LMT is set up as an M4 "clone" and I just don't shoot it that much.
I have also assembled four 5.56 uppers with 11.3 - 20 inch barrels. They have run fine. I wish I could shoot them enough to find more problems or at least wear out some parts.
The only problematic build I have is a 9mm and it's issue is based on needing a dedicated lower. My dedicated 22 lr upper is more reliable than my 10-22.
I think the majority of inexpensive AR owners just do not shoot them enough to establish how reliable/unreliable they are and do not understand the platform well enough to troubleshoot any issues they have. They take it to their buddy who tells them their gas rings weren't aligned, not to load more than 28 in a 30 round magazine, or that the AR "shits where it eats". The owner shrugs their shoulders, puts the gun back under their bed and forgets about it.
Andy
robbins290
09-10-20, 11:59
I don't understand the logic of buying cheap AR's or assembling from cheap parts. There are many great choices from proven quality manufacturers and they cost within $600 of the junk Franken guns. Doesn't make sense to me to buy build cheap and have a garbage gun vs spend a little more and have quality. I have 3 quality AR's and they are almost 100% reliable... A buddy of mine just got a pistol AR from PSA and I'm curious to shoot his and compare it with my BCM pistol AR
Are you going to train people and burn up barrels and bolts on a $1200-$2,000 ar that will last 20k rounds before a barrel and bolt change. Or would rather use a $300 dollar rifle and change the bolt at 15k rounds.
I don't understand the logic of buying cheap AR's or assembling from cheap parts. There are many great choices from proven quality manufacturers and they cost within $600 of the junk Franken guns. Doesn't make sense to me to buy build cheap and have a garbage gun vs spend a little more and have quality. I have 3 quality AR's and they are almost 100% reliable... A buddy of mine just got a pistol AR from PSA and I'm curious to shoot his and compare it with my BCM pistol AR
I think you might be missing the DIY gene. :jester: Seriously, to me that is one of the allures of the AR - anyone with basic tools and even a little mechanical skill can build/assemble one. I've built and gifted AR's to my sons, and a couple grandsons. They all work just fine, largely because I use good parts.
I think the fact that I ask the recipients what they want in terms of floated or FSB, length and colors make the Dad/Grandpa guns more of a family heirloom then a 'Grandpa bought me this gun' would have.
I don't really save any money putting these together, but I feel they have performed either better than or 'just as good' as more expensive rifles - largely due to the attention I pay to the upper's components and assembly. I lap the receiver, primarily use GM barrels, Toolcraft C-153 bolts, pin the Geissele gas blocks and hit the lower end of the torque spec on the barrel nut. The results have always been reliable and more than accurate enough for hunting, training and plinking.
I've also got a couple of PSA uppers - a stainless mid-length M4orgery which is my favorite FSB rifle to shoot, a 10.5in FSB because it looks cool, and a 8in .22LR upper that gets the shit shot out of it. The stainless mid-length is a legit 1.5-2moa rifle, shoots better than another name brand FSB carbine-length upper I have, pretty sure I paid $159 or $199 for the PSA w/o BCG.
Just my take.
I have a M&P sport II and a few PSA builds i use as learners. We beat the crap out of them. Never had a issue besides a crappy carry handle sight wont stay zero'd on one. I also have slapped some cheap sub par kits together all ran with brass case bulk 5.56/223 ammo. I have high end ar's and $200 dollar ar's, they all work. I have about 20. Each for there own role. And they all shoot and are good out to 200 yards.
Just a question, do you keep your ar15 lubed?
See, this is what I'm talking about! 😖😄
I used to use light grease on sliding parts, oil on other parts. Later I went to more liberal oil. Then I tried light oil. Never let them get very dirty. 300-500 rounds tops. Didnt seem to matter.
I bought a new Mini14 that worked fine but I traded it for an older Mini14 (I wanted a blued one) and it worked. Sold it and about 2017 got a new one. Had ejection problems. Sold it to a family member. (He knew)
I've had several AK's that worked, and a couple that didn't. (US made)
Had M1A's and three PTR G3's that all worked.
When I say worked I mean minimum 300 rds fired without stoppage but some had a couple thousand rounds. My first AK was around 15k.
Oh, I have a Beretta ARX with about 800 rds with no malfunctions. The AR10 has about 600 iirc. One malfunctioned but i know what contributed to that, not that it makes it okay.
No problems with any of the newer guys PSA uppers other than overgassed and extractor springs being immediately changed out.
My guns all run fine as well.
Devildawg2531
09-10-20, 12:58
Are you going to train people and burn up barrels and bolts on a $1200-$2,000 ar that will last 20k rounds before a barrel and bolt change. Or would rather use a $300 dollar rifle and change the bolt at 15k rounds.
Every class I've attended everyone brought their own rifle. You train people and supply cheap rifles so they get more practice clearing FTE's?
Are you going to train people and burn up barrels and bolts on a $1200-$2,000 ar that will last 20k rounds before a barrel and bolt change. Or would rather use a $300 dollar rifle and change the bolt at 15k rounds.
A quality AR will last more then 20K rounds.
robbins290
09-10-20, 13:24
ironically, it never happens. A few ammo related stoppages is about it. And that's maybe 1 or 2 in a couple thousand rounds. Tho i do periodic maintenance and clean and lube them every week.
I have a couple buddies who bought new Daniel Defense rifles in the last couple years. (Cops) but theyve only fired them enough to zero. Both Aimpoints iirc.
I need to get them to the range and get a few hundred rounds through them.
I recently tried to find another BCM upper since the two I've had worked (11.5 and a 14.5 both with FSB) but they are out of stock of everything but keymod.
Still not willing to give up, I ordered another new complete Armalite.
robbins290
09-10-20, 13:45
A quality AR will last more then 20K rounds.
Yes it will, i was talking about barrels and bolts.
Renegade04
09-10-20, 14:43
Personally, I make it a practice to not build cheap (low quality) "franken" ARs. Over the past 15 years, I have built right at 10 ARs and never had an issue that I could not solve right away. One problem I did have was due to the fact that I put the hammer spring in wrong. Never did that again. The other was a barrel in which the barrel extension was not headspaced properly. Replaced the barrel and no issue after that. The cheapest build I have right now is with a PSA 16" M4 type upper on a McKay Ent. lower that I built. Runs great. I find that to many people know little to nothing as to how an AR operates and how each component works together. They have no troubleshooting skills. I find that many of the issues are the operators, not the weapon, but often times, choice of ammo (cheap junk) is the culprit. The fact is, you can build an inexpensive AR (below $600) and have a good running weapon. It all depends on the choice of the parts used and the one who assembles everything.
The_War_Wagon
09-10-20, 15:57
I LOVE coming back to M4C, and reading these refreshing truths.
You WARN people on other forums, NOT to cheap out on their build... and they do so anyways. Frankenbuild breaks, and they're all - "WHUT happened??!!"
EXACTLY what we warned would happen. :rolleyes:
I’m not defending Frankenguns but I have a mutt AR that does bretty guud.
CAVEAT: all the parts are to spec. I don’t care what people say. The dimensions of a lower DOES matter. The $50 poverty pony seems okay until it starts messing up. That said, some people seriously do charge for the rollmark.
Like I won’t dare an AR-10 build unless I have Armalite parts. Eagle Arms me all you want. They didn’t just buy the name. I’m kinda meh on Aero. Do-able but you aren’t saving that much.
Specs matter. Dimensions matter. Headspace matters.
PSA builds can be hit or miss. I know Barfcom likes their Punisher skulls and meme lowers. But they are retards and paint-huffers.
I naively thought the Colt train would be up and going again. Nope. It likely would have minus the hysteria.
Realistically you should have two solid ARs of similar pattern. Not dragon chasing a fad.
And I say mutt or Mischling AR as opposed to Frankengun. Frankengun implies I robbed graves. A mutt means two quality parts of a quality brand fell in love and out came a rifle that just works.
Yes, mutt is a better word.
I also agree two proven rifles that can share parts is what is needed. Everything else is just bonus.
turnburglar
09-10-20, 19:23
I had a real Colt M4 for a couple years, so I am familiar with the TDP. When it came time to building or buying my own guns though I have always deviated from the norm. I first wanted to buy my own carbine since sandy hook happened. I was deployed at the time reading all the doom and gloom on this very forum. The AR15 was about to go extinct and I wasn't even CONUS!! What is a guy to do? How about a PSA premium build kit? Comes with an FN CHF barrel and a C158 bolt how bad can it be? Well I built that kit into a rifle back in 2013, and it has had a pile of ammunition ran through it since. It was my main 556 gun for the last shooting season. The only part I have changed on it was the barrel. Not because the PSA FN barrel was shot out. It lives on another build, and I even measured the gas port at 0.076. Not bad for a 16" mid length gas system, that the forum SWEARS is over gassed. Naw I just trade barrels like girls, because I thought I wanted a 14.5 pin and weld light weight, when that was the craze. Then I started shooting matches where my gun was too hot to hold after the 3rd stage. So then I was like; all the cool kids have an 18" rifle has heavy barrel, so thats what Im doing. I ****ing hated it immediately. It just made my 556 carbine feel too much like my MSR10. Now I got the newest hotness from BRT cause Im too poor to make a thread about how disappointed in KAC I am.
So my main match rifle is a PSA based mutt. I also have one of their 10.5 pistol kits built on an anderson lower. I didn't like the rail or MD that came on it, but in true budget fashion I found a dope $100 rail from Primary arms, and added a used BCM comp. I can't tell you how much I love this "pistol" that cost me less to build than a glock goes for today. It has a random nitride barrel that measured 0.074. Not severely over gassed especially when you consider this thing eats cases of russian ammo.
The rifle I have had the most issues ever out of was my factory built Savage MSR 10. I sent that thing back to savage like 4 times. They even sent me a brand new gun but in a different caliber. Cause I wanted to swap from 308 to shoot 6.5 cool kid. Even the brand new gun didn't run right. Did I send it back to savage for a 5th time? No. This is when I learned the lesson that there is a difference between an employee that works the line, and a true gun smith. Savage does not have a true AR smith under their employment. When I finally asked my local gun smith to take a wack at it, they smoothed out the chamber, adjusted the chamber mouth, and polished up most of the bolt face. They didn't use a single aftermarket part in a gun that would NOT run straight from the manufacture. They simply waved their gun smithing magic wand, and the rifle has eaten 500 rounds over the last season without a single stoppage. In true Savage fashion though the barrel is a shooter.
My BCM mutt is a factory BCM upper, on a spikes lower built with some random lower parts kit. It has a larue trigger that has given me issues. The BCM extractor spring also went soft on me somewhere around 2k. This gun shoots well, but gets shot the least. My wife thinks it is hers and won't let me paint it or add optics.
I like to think of an AR15 more like a holistic system, and tend not to judge it by the roll mark on the lower. Either parts are in spec and work, or they don't and you will find out pretty quickly if you actually shoot it. When ever I hear stories of dudes in a class having a gun go down, I always want to know: "is that gun brand new to you?" When you think of an AR like a 'life support system' that everyone likes to compare it too; no one mentions that with real life support systems you have to constantly check, test, and verify their function. You can't just be like: "Aww man well Boeing put that shit together so you know it works!" or "It's a Lockheed Martin man, it will never fail you." No. You test that POS no matter who built it. And if it works, it works. Period. Too often, dudes act like PSA parts are made of chinese pot metal or something.
EDIT: and I shoot a lot of AR centric matches were dudes have all kinds of wacky calibers. The number one cause of a stoppage or malfunction is the crap ammo someone reloaded themselves. Using even some of the cheapest factory made ammunition with good magazines, I have seen incredible reliability. In fact my AR's are MORE reliable than my glock 19 G3 which gets a stove pipe randomly every 300-700 rounds.
I think there are two completely different AR builds (maybe 3).
A Frankenbuild is a gun that started and finished as a budget build or was a box of unrelated parts that ended up as a gun.
We will call the second category a mutt because FF's mojo is strong this month. Heinz 57 is accurate as well. A purpose built gun assembled from carefully selected quality parts that may come from a variety of manufacurers. I have one built around a BRT barrel, BCM upper, Sionics gutless lower and phosphate BCH, LaRue trigger, ALG rail, Magpul buttstock, BCM PG. It's a mutt, but I would not call it a frankenbuild. It's carefully assembled, smooth, and the gun I envisioned when I started.
I assembled 6 ARs before I bought my first complete one. I researched here a lot, made mostly good choices, ended up with a box of lesser parts that grew into a decent frankenpistol (number 6).
I bought 3 upper receiver groups, one BCM (1st and solid), one PSA premium (2nd - meh), and LMT (14.5" p&w - solid).
I bought the LMT upper complete with a Troy DI quad rail on the EE, ordered a complete LMT Defender lower, and made my very own SPM 14. It's not even a mutt, it's more like a lunchbox build I paid for.
Factory guns are great, but I love the AR because it's modular and can be assembled completely from component parts with a lot of careful research, a basic mechanical understanding, and a suprisingly small amount of tools.
If I wanted to just buy a gun, it would be another platform.
Andy
I no longer have any complete AR's that were bought as new rifles. All of mine are complete uppers (BCM, PSA and others) on built lowers or entirely built rifles. I have not had any problems with any assembled upper that I have bought and all have run fine. I had one PSA complete MOE lower that I changed out the trigger after it was burst firing, but no other lower issues. When I build, I expect to have to do some tweeking, adjusting and break-in, so I do not get bummed by having to do so. I have been able to figure out all problems thus far and all of my AR's run fine.
I do not expect to get much more than 5,000-7,000 or so rounds out of a cheap barrel like the one on my PSA 8.5" AR pistol before it starts to loose accuracy. Cheap parts wear out faster, but that is ok with me.
My wife thinks it is hers and won't let me paint it or add optics.
:haha:
I LOVE coming back to M4C, and reading these refreshing truths.
You WARN people on other forums, NOT to cheap out on their build... and they do so anyways. Frankenbuild breaks, and they're all - "WHUT happened??!!"
EXACTLY what we warned would happen. :rolleyes:
Oh come on TWW. You’re not referring to Calguns are you? Maybe it’s because I mostly look at forums using Tapatalk now, so I see a lot more GD, but that place is starting to look like TOS and 4chan had a baby. Without the smart people.
Sent from 80ms in the future
I only have one AR that was bought as a complete rifle, which is my Colt 6520.
Every other AR that I have was assembled to some degree or another after purchasing the components separately. Some were complete uppers I bought and slapped on lowers I already had and some were purchased as a bunch of parts that were put together from the ground up.
I’ve actually had pretty good luck with all of them with the exception of one SBR upper that has always exhibited inconsistent to poor accuracy. Functions good, but has just never grouped well.
In general I try to use quality parts, lots of BCM, Colt, Sionics etc, deviating from this only when I need something specific that I can’t get from them (C7 uppers, 11.5” chrome lined pencil profile barrels, 14.5” barrel with Non-F FSBs etc)
What I have learned though is that going forward, unless I’m building some specific Retro clone (and honestly with things the way they are now I probably won’t be “wasting” my time or money on any more Retro guns now) my preference is probably going to be to stick with buying complete uppers. I can assemble an AR from a bunch of parts, I’ve done it and I’m glad I know how to do it, but honestly I’m at the point where I prefer to just get a complete upper and pop it on a complete lower and be done with it.
Devildawg2531
09-11-20, 07:49
I've never built an AR and don't have interest honestly.
Question is buying the upper and lower seperately from the same manufacturer make the gun a mutt?
I guess one would call my favorite AR a "Franken gun" but it is built of top shelf parts that I bought separately over time, waiting for interwebz sales. LMT striped lower w/Colt LPK. Colt barrel w/Colt BCG, etc.. Accurate and 100% reliable since built, over 1.5 years now. Since all the parts were bought on sale it definitely came in under $1000.00, maybe closer to $800.00
It is without optic since I prefer irons, no rail just a Magpul SL handguard.
I bought for cheap a frankenbuild. It had a DD barrel and a BCM BCG, but everything else was COTS, budget-build stuff. I don't clean it a lot, but I do keep it lubed, and it's lightweight and a beater: I think I have put around 3K rounds through it.
I have a PWS DI upper I got through a dealer special when I worked at a gunshop/range in 2013 or 2014. 14.5 carbine with a keymod 12" rail. Originally had a palmetto blem lower, with CMMG lower parts kit and a commercial Nickle Boron BCG from WMD. I have since replaced the lower with an Aero, and the BCG with a fail zero, approximately 5k rds on the upper. The only thing is it does get warm quick.
Straight Shooter
09-11-20, 10:00
My sample of one PSA mid length I bought to see for myself if they were "junk" or not.
Got the 16" SS Freedom barrel on it and has performed in a steller fashion for the 1600 + rounds thru it so far.
I got this rifle cheap...and its worth more than I paid. Wish I could say that about a lot of stuff.
Averageman
09-11-20, 10:49
I have a 14.5 BCM upper on a Spikes lower and a mish mash of mixed lower parts and a custom trigger in it. It's never hick upped on me yet and that sucker is at least 15 years old.
It's what got me in to AR's really, I've got four now and yes, everyone of them has had little parts changes and new triggers put in them.
I actually was assembling one evening and finally got tired and went to bed. I woke up about two hours later, pulled the gun back out and turned the hammer spring over correctly and went back to bed.
This stuff is a sickness of sorts.
The ghosts of E. Stoner and team just hate me.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-11-20, 17:49
PSA blem lower $139 delivered
PSA stainless pencil mid-length upper 13in keymod $219 delivered
PSA NIB BCG $89
RMR 01 with AR riser $261 delivered
LaRue MBT $107 delivered
Lantac brake $99 delivered
For under $1,000 the wife has a light weight relatively low-recoil flat-shooting (Lantac) rifle with a no-fiddle optic and decent trigger for recreational use. So far it's been 100% reliable through three cases of M193. The wife is happy... and I'm not here creating threads fussing like a recent KAC buyer. (just razzing ya boys).
So you spend $500 more on the rifle, and after $5k if ammo, you spend another $400 on bolt/barrel, worst case.
Or you save 10% and Increase greatly the risk having an unreliable Rifle.
I dont get what the question is.
I have a couple "franken" gun AR's but all built with quality parts (Hodge barrel on one, BCM on another, Colt SOCOM on a third, all high-end BCG's and triggers). I haven't exactly shot the crap out of them but no issues. Haven't had an "el cheapo" in quite a while. Also, the only thing I shoot steel-cased garbage ammo out of is my AK.
never had a problem with any rifle I ever built and even built one for about 360 during the over supply in the market. I abused that one, no issues. lucky maybe but these are like legos so no voodoo magic involved.
Once I learned about AR springs, gassing & buffers, I've had no problems with assembling ARs that were cheap or of mixed heritage
Devildawg2531
09-12-20, 23:59
So you spend $500 more on the rifle, and after $5k if ammo, you spend another $400 on bolt/barrel, worst case.
Or you save 10% and Increase greatly the risk having an unreliable Rifle.
I dont get what the question is.
Bingo.. the math doesn’t make sense. Unless assembling rifles is your entertainment to me it’s just a tool and I buy the best tool possible. Note I don’t assemble my chainsaw from parts either.
I have built many frankenguns that have run reliably for tens of thousands of rounds. What I don't get is how you build one for cheap...
Maybe it's just me [emoji6]
Dennis.
I have built many frankenguns that have run reliably for tens of thousands of rounds. What I don't get is how you build one for cheap...
Maybe it's just me.
No, it's not just you. I have that dilemma also.
I have built many frankenguns that have run reliably for tens of thousands of rounds. What I don't get is how you build one for cheap...
Maybe it's just me [emoji6]
Dennis.
Well, my example of one took time to assemble the various parts. I'd say 6 months at least. I surfed the interwebz regularly, looking for sales and signing up for news letters from vendors. When the part I wanted from a manufacturer I wanted came on sale I bought it. Into a box it went until everything was present. It took time and some flexibility. For example; my barrel choices came down to several good ones, DD, FN, Colt. The Colt SOCOM 14.5 went on sale and combined the most features I was looking for so I bought it. The LMT Defender 2000 lower was $119 I think. BCM blemished upper $50.00
I have built many frankenguns that have run reliably for tens of thousands of rounds. What I don't get is how you build one for cheap...
Maybe it's just me [emoji6]
Dennis.
Buy a PSA kit & lower on sale
I think at the end of the day the recipe is simple: quality parts, correct assembly, competent builder = functional gun. Miss any of the 3 and you may end up with a pile of useless garbage. I’ve had success with home builds and it’s a great way to learn about the weapons functionality, but I now prefer to buy quality factory rifles. There are people out there who know far more about building ARs than me and have built far more rifles than me so why not let them do it?
I've built several carbines and AR pistols using DD, LMT, PSA, and UKN Gunbroker uppers. The only issues I have ever had was the DD did not like cheap Tula ammo and the Gunbroker 11.5" CAR15 clone upper was a bitch to mate with any lower I had. I had to actually use my brass hammer to knock the rear takedown pin in and out. Once together it worked just fine though. I've put thousands of rounds thru several PSA uppers and never had an issue.
PS...Well I did have some issues with a CMMG .22LR upper on a Plum Crazy lower but it turned out to be a magazine issue and once I installed an adapter to use S&W .22 AR mags it ran like a champ!
The_War_Wagon
09-13-20, 21:07
Oh come on TWW. You’re not referring to Calguns are you? Maybe it’s because I mostly look at forums using Tapatalk now, so I see a lot more GD, but that place is starting to look like TOS and 4chan had a baby. Without the smart people.
You KNOW it! :rolleyes:
Well, a Franken gun can be very high quality. Stripped uppers and stripped lowers are just shells if they are in spec. Roll marks do not matter if you are building for personal use. No reason to chase roll marks unless you just want to impress others or try to maximize resale value. It wont be any less reliable if you fill those shells with good stuff.
Case in point: I had an old M&P 15 stripped lower laying around gathering dust. A similar left over Spikes M4 stripped upper. So, I decided to see whether they would support a precision 16" Recce type build.
Barrel: 16" Lilja M4 Navy (NSWC-Crane spec stainless match grade, Wylde chamber, 1:8 twist, pull button rifled, hand lapped.
Rail: Daniel Defense 12" Modular Float Rail (MFR)
BCG: WMD Guns NiB-X
Charge Handle: Raptor
Iron Sights: Magpul MBUS Pro front and Rear
Trigger: Geissele SSA-E
Rear Stock: Magpul ACS
Grip: Magpul MIAD
Harris 6-9" swivel bench bipod mounted on an ADM QD mount
Lower parts kit was CMMG Gun Builders kit
Result: reliable cycling of all .223/5.56 ammo from cheap weak low power bulk, to full power 5.56, Mk262 77gr SMK to precision match handloads. With Berger match bullets ranging from 52gr match to Berger 80gr. Full Bore in Lapua Match cases, consistemt sub MOA and sub 1/2 MOA with some bullets.
Optics are QD mounted in LaRue return to zero mounts, either a mid powered mil/mil Leupold, or a 6-24x50 Burris target scope with fine 1/8 MOA reticle., both pre-zeroed for this rifle.
Only special prep was to lightly true the upper receiver face and to shim the barrel for a tight fit.
Starting with a more "prestigious" roll mark stripped lower or upper would not improve the quality, reliability or accuracy.
Back in the late 90's, I bought a (No Name) kit at a gun show. I was curious just how hard it was to build one. I took it out to the range and believe me....for a grand total of $475.00, kit and stripped lower, its never had a problem. I later bought several more kits from different vendors, and again had no problems. The 9mm I built did have a few hiccups, but that was "Magazine" related. All of the PSA Kits I have bought, have worked with out issue. Frankly....if the gun goes bang every time I pull the trigger, and hits whatever I'm shooting at, with what ever brand of ammunition I have, I'm good with it. Back when all you could get was Colt, that's what I bought, but at today's prices....the Colts I have are out of reach for most people. So I see nothing wrong with shooting up a PSA, and when its worn out, grab another.
Any gun can break or malfunction. I don't consider that to be the end of the world. I've learned (the whole point?) MORE from guns that were not flawless to the point where I can actually Diagnose and properly repair guns. To me, that has value.
So, have I owned guns that were not Perfect? Yes. Do I STILL HAVE any malfunctioning guns....nope.....and I have, based on the posting I read here a lot more rifles than most people.
Any gun can break or malfunction. I don't consider that to be the end of the world. I've learned (the whole point?) MORE from guns that were not flawless to the point where I can actually Diagnose and properly repair guns. To me, that has value.
So, have I owned guns that were not Perfect? Yes. Do I STILL HAVE any malfunctioning guns....nope.....and I have, based on the posting I read here a lot more rifles than most people.I agree. The first AR I put together, I had no idea what to expect. It was a 20" completed upper, so I only put the Lower together, but still....on the side of my bed, over a copy of Shot Gun News, referring to the pictures and text in Duncan Long's book. I only had a reasonable expectation that everything would work, which it did. I still have that rifle.
I agree. The first AR I put together, I had no idea what to expect. It was a 20" completed upper, so I only put the Lower together, but still....on the side of my bed, over a copy of Shot Gun News, referring to the pictures and text in Duncan Long's book. I only had a reasonable expectation that everything would work, which it did. I still have that rifle.
Holy crap that's hilarious because I did EXACTLY the same thing- Duncan Long Green AR book the one with the Beman Air Gun sights recommendations? Quality Parts (Bushmaster) Highly recommended!!!....Brother, that is a LONG TIME AGO....But yea, that's how I got my start, crappy stamped out "armorers" wrench etc...Still have the book!
I sure don't.
Man, I don't know what to say other than don't waste your money buying lottery tickets because it doesn't seem like you have any luck. While I certainly agree with the "buy once, cry one" sentiment, not all of us can afford that or couldn't when we started.
Why does everyone with a high $ rifle think that IF they ever have to really use it for an extended period of time, that it won't be lost, stolen, damaged, or shot? What do you when your rifle quits or is gone? Refuse to use a PSA? Sit it out until your new BCM arrives?
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia2.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FNyjObFYNmwEM%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1
Are you going to train people and burn up barrels and bolts on a $1200-$2,000 ar that will last 20k rounds before a barrel and bolt change. Or would rather use a $300 dollar rifle and change the bolt at 15k rounds.
In theory 15k-20k rounds is the avg life of bolts and barrels. Those are surplus items and can be swapped out and your rifle is "like new" again. that's how i always looked at the platform. With tech advancements they all should go boom, "should"...
Holy crap that's hilarious because I did EXACTLY the same thing- Duncan Long Green AR book the one with the Beman Air Gun sights recommendations? Quality Parts (Bushmaster) Highly recommended!!!....Brother, that is a LONG TIME AGO....But yea, that's how I got my start, crappy stamped out "armorers" wrench etc...Still have the book!That is so funny...The lower went together so easy, I was sure I must have done something wrong. I took the completed rifle out to the range, put 2 rds in a 20 rd mag, laid the rifle on a bag on the bench, covered it with a towel, tied a piece of string to the trigger and pulled the trigger...it cycled, and I was so excited I shot that rifle the rest of the day. When I got home I lubed the Colts and put them away. I still have that book...How did we ever get along before YouTube and the Internet.....lol......
I have several PSAs, a couple of Rugers, and a newer Bushmaster. Never had a problem with them.
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-15-20, 10:23
While I certainly agree with the "buy once, cry one" sentiment, not all of us can afford that or couldn't when we started.
It comes down to priorities. None of the people I know IRL who claim to be unable to afford anything but bottom bin bargain cobbled together rifles actually live in poverty, and they waste plenty of money on frivolous things like the most expensive satellite tv packages, tobacco products, booze, lotto tickets, and other things that separate poor people from their money. Or they own multiple bottom bin PSA weekly deal specials instead of putting that money toward two good rifles. They are poor minded and choose temporary instant gratification rather than being patient, saving a little more, and getting what they really want.
Most of the time, it's really nothing more than a hobby to them anyway. They don't really think they'll ever be in a situation where they need to use it to defend themselves or their family, so they turn on the tv, fire up another Marlboro, crack open a Budweiser, scratch off that lotto ticket, and see what that extra $399 in their bank account can buy from PSA this month.
Why does everyone with a high $ rifle think that IF they ever have to really use it for an extended period of time, that it won't be lost, stolen, damaged, or shot? What do you when your rifle quits or is gone? Refuse to use a PSA? Sit it out until your new BCM arrives?
I would pull another "high $" rifle out of my safe and move on with life.
Man, I don't know what to say other than don't waste your money buying lottery tickets because it doesn't seem like you have any luck. While I certainly agree with the "buy once, cry one" sentiment, not all of us can afford that or couldn't when we started.
Why does everyone with a high $ rifle think that IF they ever have to really use it for an extended period of time, that it won't be lost, stolen, damaged, or shot? What do you when your rifle quits or is gone? Refuse to use a PSA? Sit it out until your new BCM arrives?
Your right I dont buy lotto tickets. But when I get them as gifts I've never won more than $2 or another ticket. I play that house money until its gone.
I've had a new Glock, new revolvers, and new (used kit) AK's that didnt work from the box.
I just got a replacement Beretta Tomcat in the mail to replace the one that broke its frame AND its slide. (The bar that holds the halves together broke off while firing)
I dont abuse guns. I keep them pretty clean and replace worn springs, etc.
This is also why I normally carry two guns. I cant trust any of them too much.
I would pull another "high $" rifle out of my safe and move on with life.
So in that scenario of yours, your safe or home is still available? It didn't happen while you were away at work? Or you always carry a rifle with you?
It comes down to priorities. None of the people I know IRL who claim to be unable to afford anything but bottom bin bargain cobbled together rifles actually live in poverty, and they waste plenty of money on frivolous things like the most expensive satellite tv packages, tobacco products, booze, lotto tickets, and other things that separate poor people from their money. Or they own multiple bottom bin PSA weekly deal specials instead of putting that money toward two good rifles. They are poor minded and choose temporary instant gratification rather than being patient, saving a little more, and getting what they really want.
Most of the time, it's really nothing more than a hobby to them anyway. They don't really think they'll ever be in a situation where they need to use it to defend themselves or their family, so they turn on the tv, fire up another Marlboro, crack open a Budweiser, scratch off that lotto ticket, and see what that extra $399 in their bank account can buy from PSA this month.
I would pull another "high $" rifle out of my safe and move on with life.
Wow...I wish I could afford to be that "Cavalier" about things.....Does that mean if someone steals your Ferrari, you just pull another one out of the Garage.....
ViniVidivici
09-15-20, 16:13
"Franken guns" are fine if you know what you're doing, and use decent parts. Cheap where you can, quality where it's essential.
If every damn part in the gun is the absolute cheapest quality you could find, that level of tolerance stacking can be bad joo-joo.
The way to build on the cheap is, not always to buy the cheapest retail, but scour this board and others for steals and deals, and even trades.
NWcityguy2
09-15-20, 17:41
People who spend a lot on their ARs need to let others know. The 1911 world is the exact same. When two products fill the same niche, but one costs 4x that of the other, price will become a symbol of status.
This conversation isn't "What do you do with your expensive AR?" for a reason. It would instantly derail when nothing that special emerges and people start speculating about things they could be doing, but aren't.
"High dollar" isn't the only alternative to cheap. When they were readily available, basic Colt carbines were around $1k. That's a good price for a top of the line basic AR and certainly not high dollar. At the time of this writing, new Colts are unavailable. But solid ARs from BCM, Sionics and other good makers are available for about the same price and are a good value for the money. They aren't high dollar ARs either.
There are more choices than having four cheap "back up" ARs in case you lose one or one irreplaceable "high dollar" AR. One can have a couple of reasonably priced ARs. But the harsh reality is, those guys that can't afford anything more than a $395 AR often load it up with "cool stuff" like cheap scopes, chinesium red dots, free float handguards, lasers, bipods, ceracoating and so on that put the total cost well into the high dollar category they "can't afford".
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-15-20, 18:39
So in that scenario of yours, your safe or home is still available? It didn't happen while you were away at work? Or you always carry a rifle with you?
I work from home, and typically do take an AR pistol with me most places I go in a backpack.
It's not "my" scenario. If I use a gun to defend myself and it's tied up in evidence for 6 months or a year I have others. I won't sweat it, it's a tool that served it's purpose. They don't keep them forever either, that's internet Fuddlore...unless it's not a justified shooting.
If some fantastical event transpired and all my guns magically were gone, I'd go buy more.
Wow...I wish I could afford to be that "Cavalier" about things.....Does that mean if someone steals your Ferrari, you just pull another one out of the Garage.....
Not being cavalier at all. The truth is often uncomfortable. The people I know who say they can't afford a $1000 Colt/BCM/SOLGW waste far more money per year on pointless expenditures. The people I know who complain about not being able to afford health insurance chose fields that don't provide it as a benefit. The people I know who complain about their social security not being enough to live on chose not to put anything away for retirement when they were young.
If I had a Ferrari and it was stolen, it would be insured. That's what responsible people do. They secure their belongs to the best of their abilities and in the unlikely event that they're stolen they're insured. Guns, vehicles, tools, they're all insured. Guns, ammo, and other possessions are kept in safes. If they're able to get past the security doors, dog, and inside my safes, they were very determined individuals. It doesn't ever surprise me to learn that people who cheap out on rifles also cheap out on or just don't even bother to own a safe.
NWcityguy2
09-15-20, 19:52
Not being cavalier at all. The truth is often uncomfortable.
It's entirely ridiculous to think that you are making anyone uncomfortable with anything you are saying.
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-15-20, 21:35
It's entirely ridiculous to think that you are making anyone uncomfortable with anything you are saying.
Well, you reacted to it, so....:confused:
NWcityguy2
09-15-20, 21:42
There is more than one way to react.
Gotta say I've had a lot better "luck" than the OP.
I've got a S&W M&P that went close to 10,000 rounds before the bolt broke.
Abused a Delton pretty good with no real failures of any kind.
Had an Anderson that cycled fine through a few thousand rounds, just didn't hold up to the "no-lube" claim it was supposed to. Over gassed for sure, but when lubed up it ran fine and was actually quite accurate.
Can't say I've ran any PSAs hard, but other than an accuracy issue with a 6.5 creed version, they've worked without issue.
I've built a few that continue to plug along. One SPR shoots quite well, but it doesn't get ran hard, just mainly used for longer range stuff with hand loaded heavy pills.
Still waiting on my 2nd Armalite.
If these rifles start giving me problems I'll probably try a complete DD or BCM. If those give me any trouble when they shouldn't I'll be done with AR's completely.
As I stated above, the 9mm project I put together was the only rifle I had any issues with, and that was Magazine related.... Anyone who knows anything about the Pistol Cartridge guns knows they do have some issues. That having been said....Since I don't know otherwise, I will have to assume all the "Kits" I bought at the Gun Shows were comprised of "Mil Spec" parts, and as of yet have not had any issues that would make me want to spend a bunch more money on some other Big Name just so I could say I have one. Besides the Colts I own, I also have an Olympic and several Stag, PSA Kits and even CMMG. Can I afford more expensive....Sure can, but the way I look at it...As long as it goes bang every time I pull the trigger, and I do my part, Anybody or Anything on the receiving end isn't going to have any less holes in them than if I spend $2000 to do it or $475. Personally I like to build things...If kits were available in 1975 when I bought my SP1 for $275....I probably would have a Kit Gun and not the SP1. Once I found out I could just buy Kits/Parts...that's what I do. That may not be the "Thing" for everybody, but it works for me. Under Gassed, Over Gassed....I admit I know very little about any of that...Do I care where the brass lands, No its going into a Brass Catcher anyway. So again as long as they go bang, don't blow up in my face and hit somewhere close to where I was aiming, I'm happy.
Averageman
09-16-20, 10:19
Over the last twenty or so years that I've been participated in this Hobby, I've noticed we're constantly at the mercy of availability. Available full up AR's, Lowers, Uppers, barrels, lower parts kits etc.
Years ago when times were difficult, the consensus was "A lower was a lower was a lower as long as it is in spec." kind of makes sense. So that reset the tone for a lot of people building at the time. Decent looking lower with a ugly spider on it, well, wtf, it works, so lets build on it.
I would come here to search for LPK's, opinions on after market triggers and deals on uppers and barrels. Finding a 6920 was like finding a virgin 63 Impala, it just didn't happen.
Guys were putting together some great stuff, not brand name mind you, but brand name high quality parts cobbeled together with some real research in to what they were doing. I mean it still happens here, but nowhere like it was then.
Got a half dozen stills from a motion picture? Oh hell yeah, we can replicate that and put it all together over a couple of week nights after work. You dont see that so much anymore.
I think with some study and attention to detail, you can build about anything you really want. Is it a "Frankengun?" I guess so, but it's still a hell of a gun.
So, no I might not buy a Smith and Wesson AR, but build off what quality parts are available, of course.
Dr. Bullseye
09-16-20, 12:09
My grandson milled out two 80% lowers, bought uppers, filled in the blanks himself. He say they are minimal with no frills right now but both his and his wife's frankenguns work perfectly.
Put me in the 'never had a problem' unless it was 9mm, and those were 10rnd CA mags, so I knew what I was getting into in terms of issues.
All of mine are mixed and matched lowers/uppers, and I've been building them for 15yrs or so. Any in spec lower will work, plus a decent parts kit. The last 4-6 LPKs I've had were all BCM, and that includes the 22.
I personally think, that when I started 15yrs ago, there were 'less?' players/manufacturers in the market, so it was easier to stay away from some of the less stellar ones.
Now that there is a larger customer base, with more companies that makes parts, it becomes a lot harder to stay 'safe.' More folks are getting into the AR game, and that's driving the quality down a little (overall) because there is much more demand.
Put me in the 'never had a problem' unless it was 9mm, and those were 10rnd CA mags, so I knew what I was getting into in terms of issues.
All of mine are mixed and matched lowers/uppers, and I've been building them for 15yrs or so. Any in spec lower will work, plus a decent parts kit. The last 4-6 LPKs I've had were all BCM, and that includes the 22.
I personally think, that when I started 15yrs ago, there were 'less?' players/manufacturers in the market, so it was easier to stay away from some of the less stellar ones.
Now that there is a larger customer base, with more companies that makes parts, it becomes a lot harder to stay 'safe.' More folks are getting into the AR game, and that's driving the quality down a little (overall) because there is much more demand.For the most part, same for me. The 9mm ASC magazines have a thick Powder Coat and would hold the bolt, so I had numerous FTE, FTF, Stove Pipe, Etc.... Once I got that issue addressed, I have had no other problems.
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