View Full Version : Bundeswehr picks AR as new service rifle
https://www.mdr.de/thueringen/sued-thueringen/suhl/sturmgewehr-haenel-bundeswehr-100.html
https://soldat-und-technik.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Haenel-MK556.jpg
G36 is dead. Long live the Haenel. I was right and also wrong. I knew the 433 was going nowhere (it’s trash) but I hoped they would have gone with the 14.5 416 (the best overall length of 416 IMO. Feel free to fite me irl about it)
I know nothing about Haenel but it’s essentially a cheaper off-brand piston AR. Money and politics were the issue here. Still at least it’s a real gun this time.
To think, in the 50s they aaaalllmost went AR-10. So it’s full circle now. G3s are nice but old.
Interesting. My money was on HK, because, well, they're HK.
Interesting. My money was on HK, because, well, they're HK.
They’re also pricey and they walked the dog on the G36 lawsuit fiasco so they sorta snubbed them
The US market is around 25% of HK's sales nowadays (presumably both military and civilian sales), so maybe we'll command 1% more of their attention now :D
Diamondback
09-14-20, 20:54
Anybody wanna place bets on how long before somebody here clones it? LOL
Heck, the Chinese are probably making parts now, just going off pictures :D
Clone it?
You can buy it ( if you live in Europe)
https://www.jahipaun.ee/en/online-shop/toode/firearms/rifles/haenel/haenel-semi-automatic-rifle-cr223-5189/
Honestly I sorta want a Schmeisser AR. (It’s DI)
https://www.gs-waffenhandel.de/content/2-kategorien/3-langwaffen/1-halbautomatische-buechse/4-schmeisser-ar-15-ultramatch/schmeisser-ultramatch-24-sts-systemlinks.jpg
It’s 2020 and Germans are making ARs and Americans are making AK-74s.
The boys want the boys and the girls want the girls, it’s a mixed up, muddled up, far out world
Dr. Bullseye
09-14-20, 21:39
This company in Suhl is in partnership with HK so two companies are involved. To me this is really not a pure AR but a semi-auto rifle in 308, ten round mag, with a piston.
https://www.frankonia.de/images/multimedia/pdf/p2001067-test-visier-de-DE.pdf
Dr. Bullseye
09-14-20, 21:40
This company in Suhl is in partnership with HK so two companies are involved. To me this is really not a pure AR but a semi-auto rifle in 308, ten round mag, with a piston.
https://www.frankonia.de/images/multimedia/pdf/p2001067-test-visier-de-DE.pdf
MountainRaven
09-14-20, 21:42
The article says the DPA (Deutsche Presse-Agentur - I guess the German equivalent of the AP) is reporting that Haenel won the contract, but the German Defense Ministry has not confirmed it - but that they expect to announce something soon.
I still want a 433....
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I still want a 433....
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It’s not always about you
It’s not always about you
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200915/6db655463e53e9d10afddcee51cd6923.jpg
To the face
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BoringGuy45
09-14-20, 23:10
It’s 2020 and Germans are making ARs and Americans are making AK-74s.
The boys want the boys and the girls want the girls, it’s a mixed up, muddled up, far out world
It's funny, that for most of the AR's existence, up until the end of this past decade, every country in Europe, with the exception of the Netherlands, was hellbent on finding a 5.56 service rifle that was anything but an AR. Now, they're all ditching their wonder guns that supposedly had all the AR's strengths and none of its weaknesses and picking up...AR-based rifles. Weird how things come around like that.
But on that note, I'm wondering if the DI AR's days are numbered in the U.S. military. I'm not saying it SHOULD be, but it seems like most of the countries that have picked up new AR-based service rifles have gone with piston designs. And of course, the USMC has already traded in the M4 for the M27, and everybody knows the rule that the Marines don't get to have newer or cooler toys than the Army. The Army's hair-brained Next Gen Weapons System that is supposedly going to replace everything from submachine guns up to anti-material sniper rifles is destined to fail. So I can't help but wonder if this, the 416, or (more likely) a piston AR from Sig Sauer is going to be the new service rifle for the Army in the next few years.
https://www.mdr.de/thueringen/sued-thueringen/suhl/sturmgewehr-haenel-bundeswehr-100.html
https://soldat-und-technik.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Haenel-MK556.jpg
G36 is dead. Long live the Haenel. I was right and also wrong. I knew the 433 was going nowhere (it’s trash) but I hoped they would have gone with the 14.5 416 (the best overall length of 416 IMO. Feel free to fite me irl about it)
I know nothing about Haenel but it’s essentially a cheaper off-brand piston AR. Money and politics were the issue here. Still at least it’s a real gun this time.
To think, in the 50s they aaaalllmost went AR-10. So it’s full circle now. G3s are nice but old.
Ironically the Haenel Stg 45 (m) led directly to the Cetme / G3 system.
G36s wins for CDI factor and I'd still buy a legit semi if they ever offered it but man it had problems, starting with the optic system from Hensoldt. Wanted to like it, wanted to like it...but man what a pain in the ass. Still want a XM8 while we are at it.
But this is the practical direction for sure. With all of the R&D "road to nowhere" projects Hans and Franz need to get 50 years out of this weapon system.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-15-20, 01:12
No M-Lok? M1913 rails? Red dot, not a LPVO? Spppfffttt. Not Boogaloo rated...
According to the HK rep at shot earlier this year, the only way we would maybe possibly get a US 433 is if they don’t get the German contract, so for those of us who want one this is good news.
I still want a 433....
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According to the HK rep at shot earlier this year, the only way we would maybe possibly get a US 433 is if they don’t get the German contract, so for those of us who want one this is good news.
My interest is peaked.
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Interesting development. I would have also thought HK. What a wonderful world in which we live that many NATO countries are going AR, most of our police department shoots Austrian guns, and our military uses Austrian and Germano-Austrian pistols after using Italian guns...
Steve Shannon
09-15-20, 09:13
According to Chris Bartocci, some engineers who helped develop the HK416 short stroke piston system later helped SIG develop the short stroke piston system for the sig 516. Then, they went to help Caracal design their short stroke gas piston system. His opinion is that each system improved on the previous in some incremental way, although I don’t recall that he mentioned what those incremental improvements might have been.
An article on HKPro suggests that Haenel is part of the Caracal group of companies now. I wonder how much (if any) of the short stroke gas piston system that these engineers helped design three times is present in the Haenel.
I was also interested to see that although the photograph Firefly posted has all three selector positions marked, there’s no autosear pin or hole visible.
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Grand58742
09-15-20, 09:22
Interesting development. I would have also thought HK. What a wonderful world in which we live that many NATO countries are going AR, most of our police department shoots Austrian guns, and our military uses Austrian and Germano-Austrian pistols after using Italian guns...
According to the news release in the OP, H&K can still challenge the decision.
According to Chris Bartocci, some engineers who helped develop the HK416 short stroke piston system later helped SIG develop the short stroke piston system for the sig 516. Then, they went to help Caracal design their short stroke gas piston system. His opinion is that each system improved on the previous in some incremental way, although I don’t recall that he mentioned what those incremental improvements might have been.
An article on HKPro suggests that Haenel is part of the Caracal group of companies now. I wonder how much (if any) of the short stroke gas piston system that these engineers helped design three times is present in the Haenel.
I was also interested to see that although the photograph Firefly posted has all three selector positions marked, there’s no autosear pin or hole visible.
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That is interesting per Caracal. I would proffer the 416 is more proven (and they are already on the A5 update) but like Colt, they got hit by lower bidder and politics.
It’s certainly an interesting time in Small Arms
My interest is peaked.
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You unironically want a SCAR 16 before a 433.
According to the news release in the OP, H&K can still challenge the decision.
Unless they are willing to give up essentially free 416s, the fix is in
hotrodder636
09-15-20, 11:36
Maybe HK will bring the US market some 416 and 433s to help with their income. Not the MR223 crap either, I mean US made (in GA) 416 guns.
If the 433 lands here, I'm selling a kidney
If the 433 lands here, I'm selling a kidney
That’s probably what it’ll cost :laugh:
If the 433 lands here, I'm selling a kidney
The Sandhills are not too far from me, I would sell your kidney, too....
Steve Shannon
09-15-20, 14:10
The Sandhills are not too far from me, I would sell your kidney, too....
If you plan well you could sell both of his kidneys. [emoji40]
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Maybe HK will bring the US market some 416 and 433s to help with their income. Not the MR223 crap either, I mean US made (in GA) 416 guns.
I get frustrated at comments like this. The MR 556 is literally an M27 with no full auto and the modified semi auto upper.
Brownells sold a 416 kit that was/is grossly overpriced just for the ability to use F/A parts and a lighter barrel.
I would like the updated MR556A5 with a more normal barrel but what you take a hit on in weight, you get back in accuracy. I’d also like the normal takedown pins.
I have a 556 and it is my MacBook Pro AR. Expensive, proprietary, but it just works and you get rewarded with a really really nice stock trigger and nigh SPR accuracy. It is a little chonky though and it does have more recoil (not much but noticeable).
My Colts are bae but the HK just shoots. I’d love the current, military 14.5 barrel but the 16” MR is fine too. A little lighter would go soooo far.
I get tempted to chop but nah
That said it’s my /comfy/ rifle. I’m not raiding Saigon with it. I’m going out and popping IPSC, Boar, Karens with it.
People forget that HK is gridlocked with a lot of laws. On both shores.
I don’t know what people want out of HK but they are never happy.
To those of you selling Kidneys for 433s; Y’all gonna be some sad, sad bears 15 minutes after shooting it.
“Um WTF this is like a SCAR. It just says HK on it”
I have enough G36 experience to tell you that in a perfect world it is a $600 gun at best. And they will even tell you that the XM8 is a G36 with a Starship Troopers DLC Skin.
You would literally be better off with an Airsoft version to shoot Pepsi cans with and could still retain your dignity.
JM2C
The Sandhills are not too far from me, I would sell your kidney, too....That's not how it works... not at all.
If you plan well you could sell both of his kidneys. [emoji40]
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCome on.. really? At that point, you've got more things to sell and could afford more than this. Just saying
Grand58742
09-15-20, 15:53
If you plan well you could sell both of his kidneys. [emoji40]
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One for the rifle the other for ammo?
Stuff is expensive right now.
sundance435
09-16-20, 09:39
I guess this proves that there was no way they were going with HK after the government screwed the pooch with the G36 fiasco. I never got the allure of the G36 to the point where people spend thousands to convert an SL8 to a 36 knockoff, but to each their own.
That's not how it works... not at all.
LOL...
sundance435
09-16-20, 12:51
The piston system seems particularly exposed in this design. Are others like that? Might as well go DI if you're going to leave the piston system hanging out in the open.
BoringGuy45
09-16-20, 14:45
Doesn't appear to be any more so than the 416.
You would literally be better off with an Airsoft version to shoot Pepsi cans with and could still retain your dignity.
JM2C
Might as well have tagged me with that one - yeah, even cannibalized the airsoft ones to make Halo BR's, because there are depths to dignity.
Might as well have tagged me with that one - yeah, even cannibalized the airsoft ones to make Halo BR's, because there are depths to dignity.
Many a night I debate an airsoft Stoner 63. So, know them feels
63760
Can anyone answer to what this is? I see that the upper is built up like others are doing, but am wondering why this is on here, and how this works in relation to the cam pin. Edited: I don't know why the attached thumbnail is freaking out on me.
Grand58742
09-16-20, 15:39
63760
Can anyone answer to what this is? I see that the upper is built up like others are doing, but am wondering why this is on here, and how this works in relation to the cam pin. Edited: I don't know why the attached thumbnail is freaking out on me.
It's a Das Vasderfüken attachment point.
Extremely rare piece of kit there. I'm pretty sure all the Tier 1 guys use it.
I'm pretty sure all the Tier 1 guys use it.
So that's how we defeated Isis.... it all makes sense now.
63760
Can anyone answer to what this is? I see that the upper is built up like others are doing, but am wondering why this is on here, and how this works in relation to the cam pin...
The Colt 6940 Piston Carbine had a steel insert attached in the same location to prevent the cam pin from causing abnormal wear on the upper receiver. The insert was held in place with a small bolt. (Eventually all 6940 series Colts were manufactured with the same steel insert.)
https://i.imgur.com/6z7BG7F.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FPFJUHW.jpg
Maybe this is a similar hardened insert to prevent the cam pin from causing wear on the upper receiver.
The Colt 6940 Piston Carbine had a steel insert attached in the same location to prevent the cam pin from causing abnormal wear on the upper receiver. The insert was held in place with a small bolt. (Eventually all 6940 series Colts were manufactured with the same steel insert.)
https://i.imgur.com/6z7BG7F.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FPFJUHW.jpg
Maybe this is a similar hardened insert to prevent the cam pin from causing wear on the upper receiver.
Thanks for this. I have shot the 6940 DI gun many times, but never the piston, I just assumed the upper receivers were the same. Very interesting.
Steve Shannon
09-17-20, 14:28
The SIG MCX has a steel insert in the cam path also.
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The 433 looks like a G36 made of aluminum, without a floppy dong charging handle...or maybe an aluminum XM8. I wouldn't be shocked if it's the same gas piston they use in the G36/416.
Haenel license the Caracal 816, so it seems likely that the upper at least is the same. Perhaps someone already mentioned that.
Take a look inside a well used 416, and you’ll see why that insert is there.
Thanks for this. I have shot the 6940 DI gun many times, but never the piston, I just assumed the upper receivers were the same. Very interesting.
Only early 694x uppers (those with patent pending markings) lacked the steel cam pin support. All later model 694x have it, DI and piston.
I still wish I’d gotten a 6944 Upper when I had the chance.
It was literally a Colt LMT.
Only early 694x uppers (those with patent pending markings) lacked the steel cam pin support. All later model 694x have it, DI and piston.
Do you know the dates for the uppers? I have a really good friend who has one, bought in 2011-2012 time frame, I've shot his quite a bit, and I really don't remember seeing this.
BoringGuy45
09-18-20, 20:41
I still wish I’d gotten a 6944 Upper when I had the chance.
It was literally a Colt LMT.
How close was it to the LMT system? I remember the BCG looked vastly different.
How close was it to the LMT system? I remember the BCG looked vastly different.
Karl Lewis literally had a hand in it and Colt had to pay LMT for every one sold.
I’m not speaking to the piston but the DI version
BoringGuy45
09-18-20, 21:21
Karl Lewis literally had a hand in it and Colt had to pay LMT for every one sold.
I’m not speaking to the piston but the DI version
I never got to mess around with the 6940. Did it have the same barrel attachment system as the LMT?
I never got to mess around with the 6940. Did it have the same barrel attachment system as the LMT?
No. The barrels aren’t swappable like that. It was the monolithic rail design.
I never got to mess around with the 6940. Did it have the same barrel attachment system as the LMT?
The 6940 uses a barrel nut with threads on the outside and engagement "teeth" on the front edge.
Do you know the dates for the uppers? I have a really good friend who has one, bought in 2011-2012 time frame, I've shot his quite a bit, and I really don't remember seeing this.
I do not. It was only the very early 694x that lacked the steel insert.
hotrodder636
09-20-20, 14:05
What I meant by my comment was various barrel length availability as well as the availability of chrome lining. I know the laws in both countries make it hard, hence why I think it would be nice to see them manufactured in GA. Maybe I have a misunderstanding of MR223 vs MR556. I will read up on them.
I get frustrated at comments like this. The MR 556 is literally an M27 with no full auto and the modified semi auto upper.
Brownells sold a 416 kit that was/is grossly overpriced just for the ability to use F/A parts and a lighter barrel.
I would like the updated MR556A5 with a more normal barrel but what you take a hit on in weight, you get back in accuracy. I’d also like the normal takedown pins.
I have a 556 and it is my MacBook Pro AR. Expensive, proprietary, but it just works and you get rewarded with a really really nice stock trigger and nigh SPR accuracy. It is a little chonky though and it does have more recoil (not much but noticeable).
My Colts are bae but the HK just shoots. I’d love the current, military 14.5 barrel but the 16” MR is fine too. A little lighter would go soooo far.
I get tempted to chop but nah
That said it’s my /comfy/ rifle. I’m not raiding Saigon with it. I’m going out and popping IPSC, Boar, Karens with it.
People forget that HK is gridlocked with a lot of laws. On both shores.
I don’t know what people want out of HK but they are never happy.
To those of you selling Kidneys for 433s; Y’all gonna be some sad, sad bears 15 minutes after shooting it.
“Um WTF this is like a SCAR. It just says HK on it”
I have enough G36 experience to tell you that in a perfect world it is a $600 gun at best. And they will even tell you that the XM8 is a G36 with a Starship Troopers DLC Skin.
You would literally be better off with an Airsoft version to shoot Pepsi cans with and could still retain your dignity.
JM2C
What I meant by my comment was various barrel length availability as well as the availability of chrome lining. I know the laws in both countries make it hard, hence why I think it would be nice to see them manufactured in GA. Maybe I have a misunderstanding of MR223 vs MR556. I will read up on them.
To me, the Chrome Lining is a moot point. My only complaint is the barrels weight. Like..
I won’t say it’s a “must have” rifle, but I like mine. The first thing to do is get a new rail. And they are pricey but don’t pay more than $3200. I also think the piston is a non-issue for me.
I feel the MacBook analogy is apt. You’re paying a lot but you’re getting a gun that just works. The accuracy is really good. You would likely spend nigh $700 for a barrel that nice. Likewise the trigger is almost as good as a Geissele. So that would easily be $300+ right there. Mine came with a hard case and Troy sights so there goes $600 easily. (It’s a nice case and flyable). The rest is HK tax. But once the dust settles, it’s not that overpriced. Govt sales of 416s are also pre-tty spendy.
I mean, for my own use, I doubt I need a short piston and if I did, I’d go LMT(I don’t). But for a really nice AR with Kraut space barrels; you can’t go wrong. The gun is more “assembled” in America than actually made here. Most of the gun is German material shipped over. Just enough to keep the ATF import peoples fat asses sat down somewhere.
It’s literally the same gun on same tooling.
I like the MacBook analogy because it’s how I treat it. My Colt is my Linux Thinkpad running Arch Linux with anime girls wallpaper and cyberpunk gui.
I put a lot into it, but only what I wanted and if you know, you know. My HK is my “I just wanna relax and not think” rifle with stuff that just works. Coastal Seabreeze wallpapers, MacOS.
I’m a weird and sad little man, but you knew that already. But I like my HK.
Do you know the dates for the uppers? I have a really good friend who has one, bought in 2011-2012 time frame, I've shot his quite a bit, and I really don't remember seeing this.
Colt released the 6940 in 2009 and the 6940P in early 2012. Colt's 2012 catalog has a picture of a 6940 without the insert next to a 6940P with the insert. I purchased a Colt 6944 (6940 with 14.5" barrel) in November of 2012. It does not have the insert. I've seen pictures of another 6940 that was manufactured in 2012 and it does have the insert.
Granted that's only a few data points, but it looks like the insert was added to the DI 6940 upper receivers at some point in 2012.
Colt released the 6940 in 2009 and the 6940P in early 2012. Colt's 2012 catalog has a picture of a 6940 without the insert next to a 6940P with the insert. I purchased a Colt 6944 (6940 with 14.5" barrel) in November of 2012. It does not have the insert. I've seen pictures of another 6940 that was manufactured in 2012 and it does have the insert.
Granted that's only a few data points, but it looks like the insert was added to the DI 6940 upper receivers at some point in 2012.
Interesting. My friend who owns one worked with me at a gun store and range in 2012-2015. We bought AR's around the same time of mid 2012, I went for DD and he went for the Colt, interestingly enough because they wouldn't let us buy the Magpul 6920's because they flew off the shelves so he ended up with a 6940. He became an LEO, but we used to teach a class at the range of AR basics, which was just an intro to the AR, and his was often the one used as it had traditional carbine gas system and we could talk about how AR's function, and I don't for the life of me remember seeing that insert on his rifle.
Mitbewerber wie der langjähriger Waffenlieferant der Bundeswehr, Heckler & Koch, können demnach aber noch Einspruch erheben.
:laugh:
Haenel says that 90% of their weapon will be made in Germany. I would hazard a guess that the other 10% might be UAE-made.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/09/22/official-statement-from-haenel-defence-the-mk556-is-90-made-in-germany/
MountainRaven
10-17-20, 14:29
On the 9th of October, the Bundeswehr announced that they were canceling the Haenel order. Further comment by the German government was that they canceled the order because they found the Haenel design infringed on Heckler & Koch patents.
BoringGuy45
10-17-20, 20:55
On the 9th of October, the Bundeswehr announced that they were canceling the Haenel order. Further comment by the German government was that they canceled the order because they found the Haenel design infringed on Heckler & Koch patents.
Backroom deals were made no doubt. I wouldn't be surprised to see the decision reversed and HK getting the contract instead for an "improved" G36, or the 416.
I don’t see Germany buying everybody HK416A7s (despite it being the best AR Europe has to offer) so it’ll be something retarded like the 433
On the 9th of October, the Bundeswehr announced that they were canceling the Haenel order. Further comment by the German government was that they canceled the order because they found the Haenel design infringed on Heckler & Koch patents.
I could not be a small arms supplier to Germany. I've never seen an industry that gets so f'ed with on a regular basis like it's all normal.
I think of the time and money dropped on the G11 project with the West Germany military claiming it will be the across the board replacement for the G3, then the wall came down, West had to pay for infrastructure improvements in the East and a flood of PhD types came to the West who thought $8 an hour was amazing jack and bottomed out their economy.
The German army then decided they didn't need the G11 and I think Fiat came damn close to owning it before it sold to RSA in England. Their laws are insane (even compared to ours) and their "everyone gets a fair and equal shot" approach to weapon adoption is well intentioned but wholly impractical. Haenel thought they had a date to the dance and then SUDDENLY, nope not happening.
And I'm fairly certain Haenel had all of their eggs in this basket and now they are probably done.
I don’t see Germany buying everybody HK416A7s (despite it being the best AR Europe has to offer) so it’ll be something retarded like the 433
I concur. But the 433 isn't a completely horrible rifle, it's just not a 416.
Diamondback
10-18-20, 00:55
I could not be a small arms supplier to Germany. I've never seen an industry that gets so f'ed with on a regular basis like it's all normal.
Reminiscent of Kelly Johnson's unwritten Skunk Works Rule 13: "Starve before doing business with the damned Navy. They don't know what they want and by the time they're through they will break either your heart or more exposed parts of your anatomy."
On the 9th of October, the Bundeswehr announced that they were canceling the Haenel order. Further comment by the German government was that they canceled the order because they found the Haenel design infringed on Heckler & Koch patents.
You can't make this stuff up.:lol:
They found out the "problems" with the G36 were all due to confirmation bias and a bad batch of ammunition. Everyone acknowledged it. Why then is Germany trying to replace the G36?
The current G36 is a better system than anything proposed to replace it. It could use a STANAG mag adapter with an ergonomic mag release and maybe the Bundeswehr wants heavy barrels.
What a political train wreck.
They found out the "problems" with the G36 were all due to confirmation bias and a bad batch of ammunition. Everyone acknowledged it. Why then is Germany trying to replace the G36?
The current G36 is a better system than anything proposed to replace it. It could use a STANAG mag adapter with an ergonomic mag release and maybe the Bundeswehr wants heavy barrels.
What a political train wreck.
Good luck putting the shit back in that donkey.
The G36 is now tainted and I mean like the M-16 in Vietnam is getting everyone killed kind of way. Doesn't matter what actually happened or how it got fixed, there will be even experts who will embrace this narrative to the core.
But maybe Germany needs a new rifle because the G36 even in it's best form still probably isn't the answer for the next 50 years. Not that the Germans go to war a lot or anything lately. I don't hate the G36 but I don't think it would even make my top 10 "rifles I'd want to take to war" list. The Germans need some M4ish kind of platform.
Good luck putting the shit back in that donkey.
Ha! Thanks, that gave me a laugh.
Yeah, not to mention leftist members of the German government have it in for HK for some reason.
I don't hate the G36 but I don't think it would even make my top 10 "rifles I'd want to take to war" list. The Germans need some M4ish kind of platform.
Why is that? I think there may be an advantage in some adverse conditions with a steel carrier running on polymer rails. What advantages do you see a German piston operated M4ish platform offering?
BoringGuy45
10-18-20, 17:32
Ha! Thanks, that gave me a laugh.
Yeah, not to mention leftist members of the German government have it in for HK for some reason.
Why is that? I think there may be an advantage in some adverse conditions with a steel carrier running on polymer rails. What advantages do you see a German piston operated M4ish platform offering?
I guess the question is, other than the logistics of switching to a new platform, what advantages does the G36 have over an M4 platform, piston or DI? The M4 has better ergonomics and much better accuracy. With comparable durability and reliability to the G36, I think the ergos are a tipping point.
Ha! Thanks, that gave me a laugh.
Yeah, not to mention leftist members of the German government have it in for HK for some reason.
Why is that? I think there may be an advantage in some adverse conditions with a steel carrier running on polymer rails. What advantages do you see a German piston operated M4ish platform offering?
The original (still in heavy issue) Hendsolt single and dual optics setup were absolutely atrocious. Later versions with a lower rail still meant red dot was pretty high but now the charging handle became challenging, there really wasn't a good middle ground here because to make the charging handle free and clear you needed an incorporated optic system that really didn't work unless you were gonna jam a trijicon T1 in the back end and even then it's fixed placement and probably too close for most users eye relief.
There is no good way to have a flat top upper, RDS system and BUIS, the rifle existed in concept before those things were standard and they aren't easily incorporated.
For a 5.56 rifle it moves a LOT. I think I have AKs that are most stable when firing rapid doubles or strings.
The folding stock kinda sucks. I've worked with worse but with HK you have certain expectations and cheap and kinda flimsy aren't it.
Worse of all, accuracy is kinda dismal. Not as bad as an AK but closer to AK accuracy than M4 accuracy. The fact that is generally cannot outshoot an M4 or similar piston AR makes what is essentially an AR-18 system in a new candy plastic shell almost pointless.
Factor in additional reliability problems associated with heat and prolonged firing as compared to other first world 5.56 systems (including the HK 33/53) and it really doesn't do anything new except for serve as a poly / folder concept rifle for the rest of the world to copy with improvements. There were lots of revolutionary ideas in the G36 when it first debuted in the late 1990s but as with lots of things that got there first, it was the one that took the next step that actually became the practical example.
Kinda like how HK technically had the first striker fired, high capacity, poly frame 9mm with the VP70 but it was still a long way from being as successful as the Glock.
With the failure of the G11 to go into production and adoption HK had to produce something, and they did, it's just unfortunate that they didn't get the 416 / 417 first. But HK tends to gravitate towards the innovative rather than the practical in many cases.
Steyr,
I don't doubt any of the points you made, but I think they can almost all be addressed, and with less effort and cost than replacing the G36. I also still think the G36 brings something to the table purely because of its polymer receiver and the unique advantage in low friction that adverse condition testing seems to suggest it has.
I think the optic rail/charging handle issue is fairly simple: 1. put a large enough gap in the rail to expose the charging handle while still allowing enough rail space for a red dot and NV device or 2. simply change the charging handles to a swappable fixed design, always locked in the left or right position.
There currently exist aftermarket replacement trigger packs that improve ergonomics, made from aluminum to skip the cost of a new mold. HK could manage something.
Setting aside the account that was later determined to have involved faulty ammunition, I don't believe that the stories about reliability problems and heat are any worse than our current AR15/M4s. Unless some account of failure can be verifiably attributed to the G36's plastic receiver/trunnion arrangement, the accounts seem to involve far exceeding the weapon's sustained rate of fire, exhibiting no worse result than the same with an AR15. Since it lacks the AR15's gas tube point of failure, this could likely be improved with a heavier barrel profile and better organizational awareness of rifle limitations.
Unless there is a verifiable issue with the polymer receiver/trunnion interface, and all I've seen so far are tests results that appear to debunk it, I'd put all accuracy issues down to the qualities of the cold hammer forged barrels and their thin profile. I strongly suspect HK could answer all accuracy and heat issues by increasing attention to internal barrel symmetry for smaller initial group sizes, making heavier profile barrels for smaller hot barrel group sizes and higher sustained rates of fire, and moving away from cold hammer forging to some process that allows better stress relief to eliminate 'group walking' as the barrels heat up.
ETA: I do seem to remember an additional accuracy problem with the G36 that had something to do with the Hensoldt optic not holding zero or flexing in its plastic mount... Does that ring a bell with anyone?
BoringGuy45
10-18-20, 21:31
Yes, but if there are better options to be found in a M4-style platform, then why adopt it? Replacing the G36 isn't necessarily an indictment that it is unacceptable; it simply means that a better option for long term issue was potentially found.
Germany isn't at war, so if they're going to switch out their rifles, now is the time.
Steyr,
I don't doubt any of the points you made, but I think they can almost all be addressed, and with less effort and cost than replacing the G36. I also still think the G36 brings something to the table purely because of its polymer receiver and the unique advantage in low friction that adverse condition testing seems to suggest it has.
I think the optic rail/charging handle issue is fairly simple: 1. put a large enough gap in the rail to expose the charging handle while still allowing enough rail space for a red dot and NV device or 2. simply change the charging handles to a swappable fixed design, always locked in the left or right position.
There currently exist aftermarket replacement trigger packs that improve ergonomics, made from aluminum to skip the cost of a new mold. HK could manage something.
Setting aside the account that was later determined to have involved faulty ammunition, I don't believe that the stories about reliability problems and heat are any worse than our current AR15/M4s. Unless some account of failure can be verifiably attributed to the G36's plastic receiver/trunnion arrangement, the accounts seem to involve far exceeding the weapon's sustained rate of fire, exhibiting no worse result than the same with an AR15. Since it lacks the AR15's gas tube point of failure, this could likely be improved with a heavier barrel profile and better soldier awareness of rifle limitations.
Unless there is a verifiable issue with the polymer receiver/trunnion interface, and all I've seen so far are tests results that appear to debunk it, I'd put all accuracy issues down to the qualities of the cold hammer forged barrels and their thin profile. I strongly suspect HK could answer all accuracy and heat issues by increasing attention to internal barrel symmetry for smaller initial group sizes, making heavier profile barrels for smaller hot barrel group sizes and higher sustained rates of fire, and moving away from cold hammer forging to some process that allows better stress relief to eliminate 'group walking' as the barrels heat up.
Hk developed a PIP g36 that had the optics rails attached to the trunion, thereby obviating any wandering accuracy issues. I had a pdf of this updated rifle at some point, but can’t find it. Frankly, an aluminum receiver g36 with redesigned bolt carrier and cocking handle, better stock, among other things would have been the natural next step. Essentially the 433. I just wish the 433 didn’t have so much odd over styling. It almost looks like an IWI product.
Setting aside the account that was later determined to have involved faulty ammunition, I don't believe that the stories about reliability problems and heat are any worse than our current AR15/M4s. Unless some account of failure can be verifiably attributed to the G36's plastic receiver/trunnion arrangement, the accounts seem to involve far exceeding the weapon's sustained rate of fire, exhibiting no worse result than the same with an AR15. Since it lacks the AR15's gas tube point of failure, this could likely be improved with a heavier barrel profile and better organizational awareness of rifle limitations.
I have somewhat limited time on G36s but here is what I remember. They seemed to smoke a lot sooner than the M4 / ARs with similar length barrels and once hot lost repeatable accuracy when the AR/M4s did not.
Please remember I'm the resident HK junkie and wanted to love the new poly space rifle.
I have somewhat limited time on G36s but here is what I remember. They seemed to smoke a lot sooner than the M4 / ARs with similar length barrels and once hot lost repeatable accuracy when the AR/M4s did not.
Please remember I'm the resident HK junkie and wanted to love the new poly space rifle.
Thanks for taking the time to go back and forth with me. I've picked up over the years that you have a great interest in and knowledge of all things HK, which is why I was enthused to engage with you on this subject.
There could certainly be factors I'm not taking into account. The real test is in use, after all. I'm having difficulty parsing out what incidents may or may not be attributable to the polymer receiver. Like that one where they thought it had zero retention issues, but it turned out to be bad ammo. Or another test done by the InRange guy, where he noted that the Hensoldt optic wasn't retaining zero. If you're confident in your memory and evaluation of the various reports, I don't think I have the strength of evidence to argue.
You know, that reminds me of something about the G11 that might be tangentially related. It might have been in an interview with Jim Sullivan, where he expressed his opinion that caseless ammo would never work. The key point was that the lack of a brass case to act as a heat sink resulted in the barrel absorbing all the heat and heating up much faster. It was apparently a much larger factor than the engineers anticipated. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the lack of a metal receiver to absorb and dissipate heat could have a similar effect on the G36's barrel.
The G36 is certainly cool, but I'm interested in seeing what other rifles can do that an AR15 can't. Not to belabor the point, but one thing I've been lazily gathering evidence on is the low friction benefit of polymer/metal interaction in firearms. Both the ARX100 and the G36 seem to have excellent resistance to stoppages caused by deeply ingressed grit, as seen when rifles are immersed in silty water. That condition is one the AR15 does not tolerate well at all. Another point is that polymer/metal or polymer/polymer helps avoid problems with moving parts like magazine release buttons seizing up when frozen. The polymer seems to contribute much less to friction related failures in both of those circumstances.
I still think at this point that Germany might be better off solving the G36's issues than adopting any of the the proposed replacements. That might be more a reflection of my dislike of the available options than of like for the G36. I really don't think any of those proposed options were optimal. Too heavy, not enough improvement in ergonomics, unknown or at least partially worse adverse condition performance (416), etc.
Hk developed a PIP g36 that had the optics rails attached to the trunion, thereby obviating any wandering accuracy issues. I had a pdf of this updated rifle at some point, but can’t find it. Frankly, an aluminum receiver g36 with redesigned bolt carrier and cocking handle, better stock, among other things would have been the natural next step. Essentially the 433. I just wish the 433 didn’t have so much odd over styling. It almost looks like an IWI product.
All of that too. This is the downside of innovating in the field.
Thanks for taking the time to go back and forth with me. I've picked up over the years that you have a great interest in and knowledge of all things HK, which is why I was enthused to engage with you on this subject.
There could certainly be factors I'm not taking into account. The real test is in use, after all. I'm having difficulty parsing out what incidents may or may not be attributable to the polymer receiver. Like that one where they thought it had zero retention issues, but it turned out to be bad ammo. Or another test done by the InRange guy, where he noted that the Hensoldt optic wasn't retaining zero. If you're confident in your memory and evaluation of the various reports, I don't think I have the strength of evidence to argue.
You know, that reminds me of something about the G11 that might be tangentially related. It might have been in an interview with Jim Sullivan, where he expressed his opinion that caseless ammo would never work. The key point was that the lack of a brass case to act as a heat sink resulted in the barrel absorbing all the heat and heating up much faster. It was apparently a much larger factor than the engineers anticipated. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the lack of a metal receiver to absorb and dissipate heat could have a similar effect on the G36's barrel.
The G36 is certainly cool, but I'm interested in seeing what other rifles can do that an AR15 can't. Not to belabor the point, but one thing I've been lazily gathering evidence on is the low friction benefit of polymer/metal interaction in firearms. Both the ARX100 and the G36 seem to have excellent resistance to stoppages caused by deeply ingressed grit, as seen when rifles are immersed in silty water. That condition is one the AR15 does not tolerate well at all. Another point is that polymer/metal or polymer/polymer helps avoid problems with moving parts like magazine release buttons seizing up when frozen. The polymer seems to contribute much less to friction related failures in both of those circumstances.
I still think at this point that Germany might be better off solving the G36's issues than adopting any of the the proposed replacements. That might be more a reflection of my dislike of the available options than of like for the G36. I really don't think any of those proposed options were optimal. Too heavy, not enough improvement in ergonomics, unknown or at least partially worse adverse condition performance (416), etc.
And that is a legit issue. The problem is when you remove the BS nonsense and everyone thinking the receivers crack at the trunnion after 500 rounds you are still left with legit problems.
There is a lot of brilliance in the XM8/G36 system but for all the advantages of a poly rifle handling fouling better, the polymer receiver also seems to contribute to POI shift when it gets toasty. There is always trade off, you want more accuracy it costs you some reliability, you want more reliability it costs you some accuracy. Everyone went through this exact same thing decades ago with AK vs. AR.
Most countries adopted some happy medium that is slightly skewed to their wants and needs. Our guys tend to hit what they shoot at so we give them accurate rifles even if they can't run 100% in the Izmash dust room. And the Russkies would rather have a rifle that works even if you put a ham sandwich in the rifle despite the fact that sometimes it misses the barn entirely.
The magic rifle never exists, the one that is more accurate yet more reliable than anything else. Sometimes countries do something crazy and get really close (Yes, Switzerland I'm talking about you guys) but it usually results in something terribly cost prohibitive. Keep in mind these are the same people that issued the SIG P210 which might be the most accurate handgun ever produced for any military but you wouldn't want to pay for one.
Essentially there is nothing wrong with the G36, it's an AR-18 system that has been proven and then some. Even when England made them with license plate stampings and a disinterest in quality control that has never quite been rivaled the damn things still worked and they seemed to work in poor conditions while poorly maintained and still provided more than acceptable accuracy.
It was a logical starting point, the other one is the FN FNC. It was all of the new materials and new layout where the G36 made even the AR-18 system less reliable. If they could have beta tested prototypes before they had to get a G3 replacement in place NOW, they probably would have refined the design even further and who knows we might have gotten something like the 433 instead.
HK is also very much a victim of their own success. Based on little more than the G3, the MP5, the P7 and the USP series people look at them like they are John Browning and never wrong, problem is HK has a lot of guns that never quite made it.
Nothing wrong with the SL6, SL7, HK4, 770, 940, etc. but when was the last time you actually saw one? So people overlook the ones that almost made it and keep expecting HK to give them the gun that will change the world.
One upgrade option for the G36:
https://www.wilcoxind.com/news_wilcox_steyr_g36.php
This thread has a lot being said what needed to be said and folks need to hear.
HK makes good stuff but not everything they pump out is Nazi Space Magic made by Werner von Braun clones blasting Kraftwerk. They are like any other company.
The G36, for what it was, wasn’t “bad”. Not anyone’s first choice but not bad for a gun made during the closest period of world peace that any of us will ever see in our lives again. It was a 5.56 rifle that really isn’t that expensive if you are a military or a police department.
Germany doesn’t go to war like they used to. In fact people were kinda leery about letting them do peacekeeping in Bosnia.
The 416 had American influence. It’s based off an American rifle, had an American citizen offer input (most famously Larry Vickers), and first main customer was the American military.
But it’s just not cheap. And has been through several revisions. The piston is not the main selling point as far as I am concerned. It’s pretty handy when properly configured (get rid of tge pic rail and stock), not that heavy and really accurate. I maintain the best configuration to be 14.5. The newer A7s (even starting back at A5s) can finally use any AR mag
It makes sense to use an AR but the money isn’t there. Buying a small arm is a logistical nightmare but it’s a “feel good” gesture mostly. A new toy for a the foot soldier. But then the Germans have jets they can’t afford to fly and other bits of decay.
Their SF has them. Like every other SF in the world they use a Glock and an AR.
At least their strudel is okay
Grand58742
10-19-20, 12:08
The newer A7s (even starting back at A5s) can finally use any AR mag
I think this is kinda my question about the whole G36 adoption thing. At a time when most NATO Members (1997ish) had already either adopted an AR type mag platform or were in the process, Germany did what Germany does and went with a proprietary mag for the G36 system. I know there's an adaptor, but you might have figured H&K would have seen the writing on the wall all the way back then and said "maybe we should look at this design and see if that's something we want from the start."
I mean, they were replacing the entire G3 family as their standard infantry weapons. What better time to implement a magazine the majority of NATO was using or was about to use?
Germans are weird sometimes.
Why different magazines?
Money. Not a damn thing to do with reliability (at least not as much as one would think) but totally the money. If you buy this gun you must buy these magazines.
It made sense at one time when the Middle East was buying whatever and before we got stuck in a forever war to sell proprietary parts.
It’s literally Mac vs PC.
MountainRaven
10-19-20, 13:23
I think this is kinda my question about the whole G36 adoption thing. At a time when most NATO Members (1997ish) had already either adopted an AR type mag platform or were in the process, Germany did what Germany does and went with a proprietary mag for the G36 system. I know there's an adaptor, but you might have figured H&K would have seen the writing on the wall all the way back then and said "maybe we should look at this design and see if that's something we want from the start."
I mean, they were replacing the entire G3 family as their standard infantry weapons. What better time to implement a magazine the majority of NATO was using or was about to use?
Germans are weird sometimes.
To be fair:
-The AR-15 magazine design was hot garbage. The magwell on the AR-15 severely hampered efforts to design better magazines for the AR-15. The AR-15 magazine design is still hot garbage, we've just found ways to make magazines fit in AR-15s that are not hot garbage. None of these better magazines really existed in 1997 and many efforts to design better magazines fell significantly short of the mark (Thermold, anyone?).
-The only NATO countries that were using rifles that took AR-15 magazines when design work began on the G36 were the UK (who were having problems with the whole weapon system the magazine was associated with) and Belgium (although the FNC's magazine is markedly different from the M16's magazine - and then there's the whole FAL/G3 thing that had been going on) and of those countries, only the UK really matters. But, well, problems.
At the same time, the US was working on the OICW and what eventually became, five years later, the XM8 - which took G36 magazines. The French had a FAMAS that accepted STANAG/AR-15 magazines, but it had only been adopted - and in small numbers - by the French Navy: The vast majority of French FAMAS rifles in service took a proprietary magazine. The Danes and Dutch did adopt Diemaco C7s during the G36's design process, but they were pretty much literally adopted right as the G36's design was being finalized and going into production. And neither of those countries are Germany, France, the UK, or the US. Canada, obviously, had the C7 as well, but they had been so clearly impressed by the OG AR-15 magazine that they thought it would be a good idea to try Thermolds out (LOL, Thermolds).
-The Germans probably wanted a magazine that offered features impossible to fit into an AR-15 magazine well (at the time). Like a translucent, polymer magazine (like what the Swiss and Austrians had). The ability to couple the magazines together without any additional hardware (like the Swiss also had). And injection molded polymer magazines were probably perceived as (and probably rightly so) significantly less expensive to manufacture than steel or aluminum stamped magazines (like those used by the FNC and AR-15) while still being much lighter than steel stamped magazines (particularly steel stamped magazines as durable as G3 and HK33 magazines) and only marginally heavier than aluminum magazines. I think, in this regard, the decision to make their redesigned SA80 magazines from steel is particularly illustrative of the sort of durability H&K expects out of a magazine that they design (although the design limitations of the SA80/AR-15 magwell meant that the magazines were not and are not that bullet-proof).
So, yeah.
In the 1990s, I'm sure Germany looked at the AR-15 magazine from the start (as they had already designed the G41... which is another rifle that accepted AR-15 magazines and had problems), said, "Maybe we should look at this design and see if that's something we want from the start." And answered, "verdammt nein lol."
Hell, if I had carte blanche to design a brand new rifle in 2020, I would team up with Magpul to design a magazine from the ground up for the rifle, and it wouldn't take AR-15 magazines (without an adapter). (Because I have carte blanche. If I'm worried about selling the thing on the commercial market, it'll take AR-15 magazines. But not because AR-15 magazines are good. Because people have piles of AR-15 magazines and whinge about every pistol that doesn't take Glock magazines and every rifle that doesn't take AR-15 magazines.)
To be fair the G36 ripped off the SG 55x mag which is actually a pretty good magazine with its only drawback being that it is a rock in design
Grand58742
10-19-20, 13:52
To be fair:
-The AR-15 magazine design was hot garbage. The magwell on the AR-15 severely hampered efforts to design better magazines for the AR-15. The AR-15 magazine design is still hot garbage, we've just found ways to make magazines fit in AR-15s that are not hot garbage. None of these better magazines really existed in 1997 and many efforts to design better magazines fell significantly short of the mark (Thermold, anyone?).
-The only NATO countries that were using rifles that took AR-15 magazines when design work began on the G36 were the UK (who were having problems with the whole weapon system the magazine was associated with) and Belgium (although the FNC's magazine is markedly different from the M16's magazine - and then there's the whole FAL/G3 thing that had been going on) and of those countries, only the UK really matters. But, well, problems.
At the same time, the US was working on the OICW and what eventually became, five years later, the XM8 - which took G36 magazines. The French had a FAMAS that accepted STANAG/AR-15 magazines, but it had only been adopted - and in small numbers - by the French Navy: The vast majority of French FAMAS rifles in service took a proprietary magazine. The Danes and Dutch did adopt Diemaco C7s during the G36's design process, but they were pretty much literally adopted right as the G36's design was being finalized and going into production. And neither of those countries are Germany, France, the UK, or the US. Canada, obviously, had the C7 as well, but they had been so clearly impressed by the OG AR-15 magazine that they thought it would be a good idea to try Thermolds out (LOL, Thermolds).
-The Germans probably wanted a magazine that offered features impossible to fit into an AR-15 magazine well (at the time). Like a translucent, polymer magazine (like what the Swiss and Austrians had). The ability to couple the magazines together without any additional hardware (like the Swiss also had). And injection molded polymer magazines were probably perceived as (and probably rightly so) significantly less expensive to manufacture than steel or aluminum stamped magazines (like those used by the FNC and AR-15) while still being much lighter than steel stamped magazines (particularly steel stamped magazines as durable as G3 and HK33 magazines) and only marginally heavier than aluminum magazines. I think, in this regard, the decision to make their redesigned SA80 magazines from steel is particularly illustrative of the sort of durability H&K expects out of a magazine that they design (although the design limitations of the SA80/AR-15 magwell meant that the magazines were not and are not that bullet-proof).
So, yeah.
In the 1990s, I'm sure Germany looked at the AR-15 magazine from the start (as they had already designed the G41... which is another rifle that accepted AR-15 magazines and had problems), said, "Maybe we should look at this design and see if that's something we want from the start." And answered, "verdammt nein lol."
Hell, if I had carte blanche to design a brand new rifle in 2020, I would team up with Magpul to design a magazine from the ground up for the rifle, and it wouldn't take AR-15 magazines (without an adapter). (Because I have carte blanche. If I'm worried about selling the thing on the commercial market, it'll take AR-15 magazines. But not because AR-15 magazines are good. Because people have piles of AR-15 magazines and whinge about every pistol that doesn't take Glock magazines and every rifle that doesn't take AR-15 magazines.)
Just a couple of things. You are correct they hadn't designed a "better mousetrap" with the AR style mag in the 90s because the drive wasn't there to design a better one. That was during the Cold War drawdown where the money just wasn't there for the design improvements in things the Government probably had a metric butt-ton of. Or needed so to speak since the US Military had other priorities.
FYI, Italy was also a big user of the AR style mag in the AR70 at the time as well. So, to say it was limited isn't quite the case. The trend was towards the AR type mag in a lot of places (including the French eventually as well) and Germans could have "overengineered" (as they love doing) an AR type mag to fit the G36. I found it odd they went to an AK type of release when the G3 had a button style release (though ergonomic it was not...) which was proven to work.
I think Thermold was one of the worst decisions ever made. But it did give rise to the concept of polymer mags which eventually led to Magpul, Lancer and others.
Why you gotta bring up Thermold...
I still have some thermolds when I feel like being a hipster.
Otherwise no. Pmags. Everyday Pmags.
I still have some thermolds when I feel like being a hipster.
Otherwise no. Pmags. Everyday Pmags.I'm on that boat as well. Metal has its place but a Pmag is my go to.
Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
10-19-20, 15:17
FYI, Italy was also a big user of the AR style mag in the AR70 at the time as well.
All Italy knows is make pizza, make cannoli, make shotgun (that hasn't fundamentally changed in over a century), make pistol (that hasn't fundamentally changed in over 75 years), and drive fast cars.
So, to say it was limited isn't quite the case. The trend was towards the AR type mag in a lot of places (including the French eventually as well)
The French didn't go all-in on the AR-15 magazine until the adoption of the HK416F - which was just over two years ago.
and Germans could have "overengineered" (as they love doing) an AR type mag to fit the G36.
The Germans did overengineer an AR-type magazine in the early 00s for the SA80, which was also what HK416s and early MR556A1s shipped with. I still have one. It's fantastically well made. It's ridiculously heavy. And I'm afraid to drop it because the characteristically crap AR-15 feedlips are easily dented when the magazine is dropped on it's feedlips, even when empty (probably especially when empty, actually, since there's no ammunition pushing against at least one feedlip to help prevent the feedlip from deforming enough to permanently bend), rendering the magazine useless.
I found it odd they went to an AK type of release when the G3 had a button style release (though ergonomic it was not...) which was proven to work.
The Spanish CETME had a push-button magazine release and only a push button magazine release. The Germans asked H&K to design a paddle/lever magazine release while they were trialing the CETME/proto-G3. The combination of a button and paddle was retained on all other H&K roller-delayed blowback guns until the G41 (except semi-auto-only guns manufactured for civilian consumption - thanks ATF). The UMP has a paddle/lever magazine release. The paddle/lever release on the G3 is sooo much better than using the damned button.
And, honestly, I DGAF about button versus paddle/lever (on a rifle). Going to my carte blanche rifle, I would design the gun with a paddle/lever magazine release, because I think rock-and-lock is broadly superior in a service rifle to a straight-in magazine with push-button magazine release (and, strictly speaking, it's not that difficult to make a magazine release that uses both a button and a lever, whether it's rock-and-lock or a straight-in magazine). Although if it's a carte blanche gun, I don't really need to worry about magazines with so much spring pressure that SMEs recommend downloading magazines by one or two rounds, like there are for the AR-15 and MP5....
Grand58742
10-19-20, 15:29
All Italy knows is make pizza, make cannoli, make shotgun (that hasn't fundamentally changed in over a century), make pistol (that hasn't fundamentally changed in over 75 years), and drive fast cars.
You forgot Sophie Loren and Daniela Bianchi.
The French didn't go all-in on the AR-15 magazine until the adoption of the HK416F - which was just over two years ago.
The Germans did overengineer an AR-type magazine in the early 00s for the SA80, which was also what HK416s and early MR556A1s shipped with. I still have one. It's fantastically well made. It's ridiculously heavy. And I'm afraid to drop it because the characteristically crap AR-15 feedlips are easily dented when the magazine is dropped on it's feedlips, even when empty (probably especially when empty, actually, since there's no ammunition pushing against at least one feedlip to help prevent the feedlip from deforming enough to permanently bend), rendering the magazine useless.
I remembered a European steel AR mag a lot of people liked, but couldn't remember the model specifically. Regardless, the FAMAS was also a victim of cutbacks of the 90s even if the French Navy did buy it. Let's face facts here, a lot of programs would never have gotten off the ground without 9-11 including replacing the green follower in the AR mags.
The Spanish CETME had a push-button magazine release and only a push button magazine release. The Germans asked H&K to design a paddle/lever magazine release while they were trialing the CETME/proto-G3. The combination of a button and paddle was retained on all other H&K roller-delayed blowback guns until the G41 (except semi-auto-only guns manufactured for civilian consumption - thanks ATF). The UMP has a paddle/lever magazine release. The paddle/lever release on the G3 is sooo much better than using the damned button.
Didn't know they were made with both.
Those SA80 Imperial Defences. I got some years and years and years ago. Not bad.
E-Landers are sorta like them moreso than the HK mags.
I think this is kinda my question about the whole G36 adoption thing. At a time when most NATO Members (1997ish) had already either adopted an AR type mag platform or were in the process, Germany did what Germany does and went with a proprietary mag for the G36 system. I know there's an adaptor, but you might have figured H&K would have seen the writing on the wall all the way back then and said "maybe we should look at this design and see if that's something we want from the start."
I mean, they were replacing the entire G3 family as their standard infantry weapons. What better time to implement a magazine the majority of NATO was using or was about to use?
Germans are weird sometimes.
Jim Schatz, may he Rest In Peace, posted on this topic on many occasions on HK Pro. He said the G36 magazine was an exercise in designing a purpose built high reliability mag by HK. Remember that AR mags at the time of the g36 development still had many issues. HK wanted their own design. Given the reliability of contemporary AR mags, we take for granted the issues that could crop up with well used, abused USGI mags and the plastic Thermold and Orlites were not great.
The paddle/lever release on the G3 is sooo much better than using the damned button.
We don't agree on everything, but soooo much this. I probably use the button on my G3s maybe 10% of the time and that is some kind of special circumstance.
.
The Germans did overengineer an AR-type magazine in the early 00s for the SA80, which was also what HK416s and early MR556A1s shipped with. I still have one. It's fantastically well made. It's ridiculously heavy. And I'm afraid to drop it because the characteristically crap AR-15 feedlips are easily dented when the magazine is dropped on it's feedlips, even when empty (probably especially when empty, actually, since there's no ammunition pushing against at least one feedlip to help prevent the feedlip from deforming enough to permanently bend), rendering the magazine useless.
Yeah, those mags were supposed to cure all ills. They sucked. I’ve got a dozen to sell next AWB.
Essentially, an individual small arm is seldom going to be the determining factor at any strategic scale, but the logistics train required to support the soldier as a system is what may ultimately determine the outcome of any meaningful battle, and given our increasingly Joint-MNF type operational environment for NATO militaries, it just makes more sense to have something interoperable with that, and if you wind up with the same mostly decent but ultimately imperfect manual of arms, then hooray.
Most countries adopted some happy medium that is slightly skewed to their wants and needs. Our guys tend to hit what they shoot at so we give them accurate rifles even if they can't run 100% in the Izmash dust room. And the Russkies would rather have a rifle that works even if you put a ham sandwich in the rifle despite the fact that sometimes it misses the barn entirely.
The magic rifle never exists, the one that is more accurate yet more reliable than anything else. Sometimes countries do something crazy and get really close (Yes, Switzerland I'm talking about you guys) but it usually results in something terribly cost prohibitive. Keep in mind these are the same people that issued the SIG P210 which might be the most accurate handgun ever produced for any military but you wouldn't want to pay for one.
Essentially there is nothing wrong with the G36, it's an AR-18 system that has been proven and then some. Even when England made them with license plate stampings and a disinterest in quality control that has never quite been rivaled the damn things still worked and they seemed to work in poor conditions while poorly maintained and still provided more than acceptable accuracy.
The ACR was originally supposed to be that Magpul greenspace design that can do everything, and realistically still could be, but in terribly practical terms it's mostly hampered by there being a plethora of slightly cheaper options that can do the same job just as well 98% of the time, and let you then spend money on optics, NVD's, training ammunition, and armor systems, which are going to make a bigger impact.
Essentially, an individual small arm is seldom going to be the determining factor at any strategic scale, but the logistics train required to support the soldier as a system is what may ultimately determine the outcome of any meaningful battle, and given our increasingly Joint-MNF type operational environment for NATO militaries, it just makes more sense to have something interoperable with that, and if you wind up with the same mostly decent but ultimately imperfect manual of arms, then hooray.
The ACR was originally supposed to be that Magpul greenspace design that can do everything, and realistically still could be, but in terribly practical terms it's mostly hampered by there being a plethora of slightly cheaper options that can do the same job just as well 98% of the time, and let you then spend money on optics, NVD's, training ammunition, and armor systems, which are going to make a bigger impact.
The fact that it got farmed out to Remington / Bushmaster didn't really help things either. Even FN's SCAR came with a few bugs.
BoringGuy45
10-20-20, 18:44
The fact that it got farmed out to Remington / Bushmaster didn't really help things either. Even FN's SCAR came with a few bugs.
I have a feeling that if Magpul had held onto the Masada, it would have been a different story; it would probably have been closer to what everybody had hoped for. I could see some smaller European country adopting it as its service rifle. I love Magpul, but farming the Masada/ACR out to Bushmaster seems like an incomprehensibly moronic decision. I know they had their reasons but...why a Freedom Group company??
It'll be interesting to see when ,if, or how Franklin Armory resurrects the Bushmaster brand, along with the ACR.
Diamondback
10-20-20, 19:46
It'll be interesting to see when ,if, or how Franklin Armory resurrects the Bushmaster brand, along with the ACR.
Hopefully Franklin goes back to Magpul and works closer with them to debug it... with how tainted the ACR name is, it might be better to go back to the original "Masada."
BoringGuy45
10-20-20, 20:47
Hopefully Franklin goes back to Magpul and works closer with them to debug it... with how tainted the ACR name is, it might be better to go back to the original "Masada."
I never liked "ACR"; there was already the failed AR replacement trials in the 80s called the ACR project.
dwhitehorne
10-20-20, 20:50
Hopefully Franklin goes back to Magpul and works closer with them to debug it... with how tainted the ACR name is, it might be better to go back to the original "Masada."
The Remington version seemed pretty nice. I got to handle one at a demo a few years ago but didn't spend anymore than 5 minutes looking it over. David
I have a feeling that if Magpul had held onto the Masada, it would have been a different story; it would probably have been closer to what everybody had hoped for. I could see some smaller European country adopting it as its service rifle. I love Magpul, but farming the Masada/ACR out to Bushmaster seems like an incomprehensibly moronic decision. I know they had their reasons but...why a Freedom Group company??
Yeah, when I saw it at Shot Show that first year, it was like the "Jesus Rifle", but when they finally got it into production with Freedom Group of all places and the less than OMG It's Perfect...reviews of the FN SCAR started popping up, I got over the new plastic wonder rifle in general.
As most people have noted, we haven't dramatically improved beyond what the M4 does to justify twice the price and a lot of other factors. If I'm gonna spend big money, I'll be getting a Knights not a ACR or SCAR.
Despite rails and ambi everything, I still see AR-18s and FNCs in plastic frames. Even HK didn't manage to revolutionize the world with the XM-8/G36. Not sure who could have built the Magpul Masada without hosing it bad.
BoringGuy45
10-21-20, 08:38
Yeah, when I saw it at Shot Show that first year, it was like the "Jesus Rifle", but when they finally got it into production with Freedom Group of all places and the less than OMG It's Perfect...reviews of the FN SCAR started popping up, I got over the new plastic wonder rifle in general.
As most people have noted, we haven't dramatically improved beyond what the M4 does to justify twice the price and a lot of other factors. If I'm gonna spend big money, I'll be getting a Knights not a ACR or SCAR.
Despite rails and ambi everything, I still see AR-18s and FNCs in plastic frames. Even HK didn't manage to revolutionize the world with the XM-8/G36. Not sure who could have built the Magpul Masada without hosing it bad.
I agree. Right now, we've reached somewhat of a plateau in terms of small arms technology. The difference between the so-called 2nd and 3rd generation assault rifles is minimal at best, the key difference in the 3rd gen rifles being greater modularity. Of course, with the way the AR has evolved in the past 50+ years, it's practically the same as a 3rd gen rifle now in terms of modularity. That isn't to say that I think it's foolish for a country to upgrade their rifles with only a slight upgrade (i.e. G36 to MK556, FAMAS to 416, etc). Incremental change can be a good thing, especially in peacetime when logistics aren't as much of a headache. The key is, as you pointed out, cost. If a rifle is 2.5 times more expensive than a quality AR, I expect it to offer 2.5 times the performance enhancement.
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