View Full Version : Tulsa, OK, slain officer Bodycam. *NSFW* hard to watch.
crosseyedshooter
09-15-20, 14:53
http://youtu.be/MSa2EomQAbA
This was posted yesterday and I haven't seen it discussed, so I apologize if this is a repost. It's unbelievable how things went bad so suddenly, although hindsight can give us a skewed perspective. I honestly can't imagine how anyone can have the emotional, moral and ethical fortitude to be a police officer in today's socio-political climate.
Hard to watch. They were too nice.
Should have shut it down way sooner.
Now you know why some police seem like assholes
I didn’t see the other thread. Sad but it appears the officers lack of decisive action cost the Sergeant his life. You give the driver
A few commands in less than a minute, than tase, than crush the driver for his actions. If you go half ass you can die. Most likely in todays BLM/ Antifa climate the two officers were unwilling to go 100% hands on.
That was hard to watch...I could feel my blood pressure rising. Makes you wonder how it may have been handled differently if LE wasn't in this bizarre backward world we're dealing with today. Infuriating.
just a scout
09-15-20, 16:13
****. That was terrible.
Ask them
Tell them
Make them
Shoot them
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El Vaquero
09-15-20, 16:32
Definitely hard to watch. RIP Sgt. Craig Johnson.
I just read that the defense for that piece of shit wanted this video released. I am dumbfounded. I would send him direct to the electric chair based on that video. How was that supposed to help his case?
Averageman
09-15-20, 16:55
Damn that's hard to watch.
I really kept hoping someone would smack him in the soup coolers with a couple feet of hickory.
Most likely in todays BLM/ Antifa climate the two officers were unwilling to go 100% hands on.
And in the process they will undo all the efforts of police to engage in "community policing" and we will trend back towards "us vs them" and cops will be taking courses in combative mindset again.
It's sad that antifa / blm will actually achieve that, but it's gonna happen. If it doesn't happen, that is just a signal that people in charge are actively sacrificing their LEOs of they keep them in a stand down posture.
Everyone who carries, better brush up on your LEO interaction skills.
Hard to watch. They were too nice.
Should have shut it down way sooner.
Now you know why some police seem like assholes
Nothing good ever comes from using “words that work” and dragging out the inevitable sadly
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****. That was terrible.
Ask them
Tell them
Make them
Shoot them
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProWell that hasn't been working out so good as of late. Next day, you're fired, indicted or in jail and Antifa is in your front yard. Sad but true. Criminals now think they have a constitutional right to resist arrest. I'm seeing it more often than not.
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Is the maggot in custody?
just a scout
09-15-20, 18:29
Is the maggot in custody?
It says he’s awaiting trial. And his buddy.
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just a scout
09-15-20, 18:31
Well that hasn't been working out so good as of late. Next day, you're fired, indicted or in jail and Antifa is in your front yard. Sad but true. Criminals now think they have a constitutional right to resist arrest. I'm seeing it more often than not.
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When the branch breaks finally, the violence and killing will be galactic. Temunjin would weep in envy once it starts.
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john armond
09-15-20, 19:06
According to a couple articles I read about the incident he went back to at least one downed officer and continued firing:
"After the officers tried to forcibly remove him from the car, he retrieved a gun from under his seat and began firing at them. Both men were shot several times, according to the arrest affidavit. *PODS* finally stepped out of the vehicle and fired three more shots as he stood over the wounded policemen." (quote from Fox News)
Funny...I don't see his defense team requesting THAT part of the video be released! I guess it must not meet their narrative of he was scared of the police.
His buddy he was on the phone with came to the scene and drove the PODS away.
you have link for that john??
john armond
09-15-20, 19:16
you have link for that john??
Which part?
Here is the fox article:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/tulsa-officer-shot-during-traffic-stop-has-died-police-announce
Heres another one:
https://meaww.com/tulsa-police-officer-father-of-two-dies-after-shot-multiple-times-during-routine-traffic-stop-hurt
And heres an article stating ABC and NBC completely ignored reporting the story:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/abc-nbc-evening-newscasts-skip-tulsa-officer-killed-during-routine-traffic-stop
And another one:
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/nicholas-fondacaro/2020/07/01/against-police-nets-skip-death-tulsa-officer-shot-head
The snarky defense team comment was in response to a previous poster that stated the PODS defense team are the ones who wanted the video released. Emotions don't come through on a keyboard.
BoringGuy45
09-15-20, 19:20
Really hard to watch. When the sergeant told him that was the last warning before he got tased, that should have been the last warning.
Where did the gun come from? Did the driver have it, or did he take it off the cop he was fighting with?
See, I would have been freaking out a LOT sooner, because I've seen this shit happen over and over and over (I've watched/followed a lot of police video content on YT and such). If they don't want to get out of the car/uncharacteristically hesitant/try to get back to the car after leaving, and are not obviously inebriated... probably something in the car they know they're going down for. And they usually end up trying to kill their way out of the arrest.
It's almost always over something stupid and relatively minor too; don't think I've ever seen an arrest go bad over like, a key of coke or a dead body in the trunk. Always something stupid like this.
Had a family member that considered a LEO career; I'm glad they talked themselves out of it.
john armond
09-15-20, 19:29
Where did the gun come from? Did the driver have it, or did he take it off the cop he was fighting with?
See, I would have been freaking out a LOT sooner, because I've seen this shit happen over and over and over (I've watched/followed a lot of police video content on YT and such). If they don't want to get out of the car/uncharacteristically hesitant/try to get back to the car after leaving, and are not obviously inebriated... probably something in the car they know they're going down for. And they usually end up trying to kill their way out of the arrest.
It's almost always over something stupid and relatively minor too; don't think I've ever seen an arrest go bad over like, a key of coke or a dead body in the trunk. Always something stupid like this.
Had a family member that considered a LEO career; I'm glad they talked themselves out of it.
Under the driver's seat. NEVER let a suspect re-enter their vehicle during a fight!!!
I spent 15 years on the road in a marked unit...truly miss it, but wouldn't want to go back to it in this day and age. Finished my Masters, and while I'm still in law enforcement, it's in a much different capacity. Unfortunately a bunch of my supposed LEO co-workers have no idea about being on the road. I honestly think the standards are going to keep getting lower because people like me, people I came in with, and people who trained me will continue to leave.
ETA...Hell, just last week an LEO I currently work with told me there was no reason to ever shoot anyone in the back, because they were just trying to get away at that point. I turned my back to him, made a gun with my finger, extended my arm backwards, and asked "really, you wouldn't shoot me?!!?" Of course this LEO has never worked on the road. Thats one of the reasons I only consider my new job essentially LEO on paper only.
I was interested in the part where it was stated he went back & stood over to finish off...I was curious as to why the vid 'ended so abruptly' & was hoping to follow that for a death penalty nail in coffin.
Which part?
Here is the fox article:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/tulsa-officer-shot-during-traffic-stop-has-died-police-announce
Heres another one:
https://meaww.com/tulsa-police-officer-father-of-two-dies-after-shot-multiple-times-during-routine-traffic-stop-hurt
And heres an article stating ABC and NBC completely ignored reporting the story:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/abc-nbc-evening-newscasts-skip-tulsa-officer-killed-during-routine-traffic-stop
And another one:
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/nicholas-fondacaro/2020/07/01/against-police-nets-skip-death-tulsa-officer-shot-head
The snarky defense team comment was in response to a previous poster that stated the PODS defense team are the ones who wanted the video released. Emotions don't come through on a keyboard.
The_War_Wagon
09-15-20, 19:37
ANOTHER officer shooting, brought to you by the "Vote for Joe... or ELSE" committee. :mad:
john armond
09-15-20, 19:44
I was interested in the part where it was stated he went back & stood over to finish off...I was curious as to why the vid 'ended so abruptly' & was hoping to follow that for a death penalty nail in coffin.
That part wouldn’t fit into the defenses argument he was scared. He even begged the Sgt not to shoot him at one point in the video. I think the defense is going to be he was so scared of the police he had nothing else to do.
Fvck this “scared of the police” BS.
When you commit to the fight, you commit HARD. Bash his head or throat a few good times to disorient and put him belly down. Go for eyes. Fvck up them ankles.
I see why they tried OC but a good drive stun mixed with a flashlight tune up would have done more.
SEPARATE FROM THE VEHICLE.
A review board or professional standards can finger wag me all day long. Boo freaking hoo.
If someone is resisting that hard then there is a reason why.
Everybody is afraid of getting fired. Nobody is afraid of dying.
I mean, I can ALWAYS stud for tranny porn or do silly dances or three card monte at the train station for money. I’m not quite ready to die yet though.
You tune them up and say “SOOOOrrry ‘bout that” once they are successfully jailed.
vicious_cb
09-15-20, 20:00
Another case of cops getting killed because of the threat of getting locked up when their leftist leadership hangs when out to dry after use of force.
Averageman
09-15-20, 20:12
Its hard to hang on to shtuff when both your wrists no longer respond to your brains signals.
Honestly, pull out the only technology the Keystone Cops had to subdue a suspect, Hickory. Apply said hickory to wrists and knees, if he's still froggy crack him on the collar bones.
Begging someone to comply, only to be shot with your own guns has to suck.
Dude I will CRUSH ankles. Not that hard. Good luck trying to stand up. You bear down until something snaps or crunches. That’s how you know you are doing it right.
SomeOtherGuy
09-15-20, 20:49
Another case of cops getting killed because of the threat of getting locked up when their leftist leadership hangs when out to dry after use of force.
Are there issues with that in Tulsa though? The national climate is obvious, but standards and prosecution are local. And the suspect/POS is white.
Is it possible these officers were being too soft because the guy came across as a whiny little man-child and they didn't think he'd be as much of a threat as he was? Obviously 2020 is a terrible year for police, but I'm not sure how much this one is BLM-related.
My condolences to the slain officer's family.
john armond
09-15-20, 21:05
Are there issues with that in Tulsa though? The national climate is obvious, but standards and prosecution are local. And the suspect/POS is white.
Is it possible these officers were being too soft because the guy came across as a whiny little man-child and they didn't think he'd be as much of a threat as he was? Obviously 2020 is a terrible year for police, but I'm not sure how much this one is BLM-related.
My condolences to the slain officer's family.
I think there is a general mood in law enforcement now. I was always of the mindset of tried by twelve rather than carried by six, but still remember one supervisor in the 90s that told me I shouldn’t carry a knife because I wasn’t “certified” on its use and that would look bad if I ever stabbed a suspect with it. If it got down to a point I needed to fight with my knife...I wouldn’t give two shites how it looked!
Averageman
09-15-20, 22:04
Having watched all that and having read the entire thread, What is the preferred method for dealing with this?
Talking him out didn't work.
Tazing him didn't work.tying to drag him out didn't work.
Spraying him with pepper spray didn't work.
I have a feeling the Sergeant was helping train this guy right before it started going off the rails.
Where did the gun come from? Did the driver have it, or did he take it off the cop he was fighting with?
He had it under seat, he reaches for it at 9:25, but neither of them knew it until shots fired.
Having watched all that and having read the entire thread, What is the preferred method for dealing with this?
Talking him out didn't work.
Tazing him didn't work.tying to drag him out didn't work.
Spraying him with pepper spray didn't work.
I have a feeling the Sergeant was helping train this guy right before it started going off the rails.
Sadly having lost most of their compliance tools / impact weapons back in the 90s, they were at "shoot to stop" but failed to do so in a timely manner. And right now city leaders would rather loose a couple cops than have citywide rioting.
I also think everyone is trying to "suck it up until November", meanwhile the radicals are trying to rachet it up before November so they can have their "look at THIS" incident. Also, and I can't believe I'm saying this...but I think we finally surpassed 1969. Between hostile takeovers of cities, targeted arson attacks on large scales, citizens trading regular gunfire and the demand that police be defunded / removed from some communities along with them being targeted and ambushed...I think we officially have crossed that line.
It's not civil war yet, and anyone who has seen actual civil war understands why...but we have moved beyond general civil unrest. I still remember when the 2000 election was the most polarized moment in politics of my life, then it was 2008, then it was 2016 but damn if 2020 isn't gonna take the record no matter who actually wins.
Sort of worried about the day after. I'm kind of hoping for a complete meltdown at the DNC prior to the election like we saw in 1968 but I think we are also seeing it and nobody cares.
Having watched all that and having read the entire thread, What is the preferred method for dealing with this?
Talking him out didn't work.
Tazing him didn't work.tying to drag him out didn't work.
Spraying him with pepper spray didn't work.
I have a feeling the Sergeant was helping train this guy right before it started going off the rails.
You shove a gun in his face and loudly say “THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER WARNINGS” and mean it.
See this is what I hate about Officers these days. Too nice or too mean. They are keep repeating themselves to someone who is not listening. Or they shoot a guy begging just to stay still like that Youre Fcked dust cover retard.
When these hoods hear you repeat yourself too much they think you don’t mean it. It’s buying them time. That’s why you should have a non verbal cue to just hammer hard and fast.
I am not gonna pretend to be Bill Blower but here’s what I would have done with as minimal MMQBing as I can muster. Once he started mewling about not wanting out of the car; Ol Sargey poo should have (in a rehearsed dialogue tree with his rookie so he knows said) “Okay he just wants a ticket. Let me go get the book.” Rookie maintains an alert and ready posture and Sarge doubles back where both officers are on same side. If they went to shooting then and there, that could have been crossfire. “Warning arcs” are bullshit.
Then I would have had a better, clearer taser shot. Immediately upon returning he gets shocked and Rookie tries to SEPARATE FROM THE VEHICLE. If taser fails, it’s now a felony stop. Guns are drawn.
When you spray someone, you empty that can. I don’t think the leads connected properly with the taser.
Don’t repeat yourself. I get it. I get it. I get it. Goddamn do I of all people get it. You want compliance. You want a clean arrest. You don’t want to do paperwork. You don’t want to fight. You think if you reword it or say it differently that they will comply. You don’t want a lawsuit. You don’t want an investigation.
BTDT, and I can speak to this with authority because I have been guilty of it.
God forgive me but there are two types of people in this world: people you can talk to and people you have to beat on. He was not someone you can talk to or he would have done it. He was bracing, stalling, and phoning a friend.
SO MANY GOD DAMNED COPS GO INTO SCREEN SAVER MODE OVER A FVCKING PHONE. It’s become Blue kryptonite. That phone is getting him his own back up. Who CARES if he is livestreaming or recording.
You may well get a use of force investigation, you may even have to buy this man a new phone when you break it, but you will be alive.
When you keep repeating yourself you sound like Charlie Brown’s teacher. They don’t care.
The lesson learned is that a violent and gruesome arrest beats getting killed every day of the week.
Quit telegraphing. This isn’t your kid brother being a pain. This is your potential murderer.
We gotta go back old school. Talk to only those who will listen and obey and fist fvck everybody else.
Stay Alert, Stay Alive
Painful.
The POS was literally on the phone calling in reinforcements and they were still in pretty please mode.
I get it, it can be very difficult to get a person out of a car if they do not want, especially if they have reasonable strength. But damn, this scenario and how to deal with has to be taught in the Academy.
RIP.
Painful.
The POS was literally on the phone calling in reinforcements and they were still in pretty please mode.
I get it, it can be very difficult to get a person out of a car if they do not want, especially if they have reasonable strength. But damn, this scenario and how to deal with has to be taught in the Academy.
RIP.
It used to be. It also used to be I Want To Be A Cop 101 stuff.
And yeah, when they ignore or stall...sometimes it's because they are preparing to kill you but they don't want to tip their hand if they can prevent it. Sometimes they are just retards who never had their parents say NO to them and they don't understand why they can't have their way.
FF, as usual, covered a LOT of shit. I hate to MMQ a dead guy but I think this was preventable. The most important take away is "If you say it...you better mean it." It's a lot like pulling a gun hoping it means you won't have to shoot. If you aren't ready to back it up, the really bad people will key in on that almost immediately.
I'm hoping they flush this turd and his accomplices, but I kind of lost faith in judicial outcomes a long time ago. Maybe this video will save the lives of some future LEOs who will be able to learn from it and continue to be polite and professional while at the same time always be running the "is this person planning to KILL ME right now" program at all times during all contacts.
Seems like every so often we need to have a 1986 FBI shootout moment for everyone to look up, pay attention and learn something. I would have thought we'd still be on point from the 2014 shootings of LEOs but maybe that is asking too much.
And as FF said, F that phone. Watch hands, hands kill. I can't think of anything worse that somebody might record me doing than me getting myself and the people I'm responsible for killed due to my unwillingness to control a situation.
It ain't easy out there right now, but it ain't gonna get any easier if you get shot, get killed or fail to protect your partner.
Everything Firefly and SteyrAUG said. Especially about repeating yourself to street rats.
This guy was clearly a No person. Continuing to talk to him and give additional commands was a waste of time, made the officers look weak, and gave him time to think. It was go time LONG before he called a friend, and definitely was go time when he picked up his phone and tried to make a call for his own backup.
I never saw them personally, but I was told in the Academies I attended and in FTO training back when we performed patrol on dinosaurs that previous FBI studies of KIA officers showed that they generally shared the personality trait of being too nice. It is a lousy time to be wearing a badge.
I have noticed that most of the incidents that have been major press incidents have started with poor officer safety tactics or poor execution of defensive/control tactics. Not to say that things would have turned out differently, but when you start a 40-meter dash 20 meters behind your opponent, your odds of winning drop dramatically.
Maybe I just haven't met "that guy" yet, but I have never encountered anyone that was that hard to extract from a vehicle. Knock on wood, I hope I never do. I've been fortunate enough to know to and be able to use more...robust...vehicle extraction techniques than these two officers used. Control those damned arms and the hands that are attached to the ends of them.
RIP, Sgt.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-16-20, 03:00
Damn that's hard to watch.
I really kept hoping someone would smack him in the soup coolers with a couple feet of hickory.
I've asked before, no more billy clubs? Seems like the tasers are not getting the job done. They need to up the amps on those. They never seem to work, but people think that they stop anyone in their tracks. Seems like the worst piece of kit ever. I'd rather see them go with not-intentionally-leathal bean bag shot gun rounds.
So damn sad.
john armond
09-16-20, 05:42
I've asked before, no more billy clubs? Seems like the tasers are not getting the job done. They need to up the amps on those. They never seem to work, but people think that they stop anyone in their tracks. Seems like the worst piece of kit ever. I'd rather see them go with not-intentionally-leathal bean bag shot gun rounds.
So damn sad.
When the Taser first came to my department, my chief stated he was going to stop carrying his gun because the taser was so great. Of course, this was the same chief that mandated no impact weapons, and no 00 Buck in our shotguns...Slugs only. Not the most brilliant person in the world to say the least. Thankfully he resigned long ago.
Business_Casual
09-16-20, 06:28
Maybe this is one of those incidents like the Miami shootout and the Newhall “putting brass in pocket” one that changes the course of training. In this case on compliance?
Just to throw a grenade into this conversation, the flip side of this is you don't know the guy is hiding a pistol. At the point the sergeant is there, all we have is an expired tag and no license. He's getting a ticket and his car is going to be towed, but that's all we have to go on.
If there's no pistol and he's behaving this way refusing to comply, are folks OK with the officers beating the shit out of him over that?
It sucks that officers are not granted the power of clairvoyance when they stop someone, but much of the posts above are why folks are marching up and down the cities pissed off.
The sergeant was too nice and should have gone to the taser early on, but I'm reading some of the above bullshit like shoving a gun in his face and I completely get why folks are protesting.
Just to throw a grenade into this conversation, the flip side of this is you don't know the guy is hiding a pistol. At the point the sergeant is there, all we have is an expired tag and no license. He's getting a ticket and his car is going to be towed, but that's all we have to go on.
If there's no pistol and he's behaving this way refusing to comply, are folks OK with the officers beating the shit out of him over that?
Winner winner.
Folks are focusing too much on the verbal exchange, and not on the fact that two cops did not have the ability how to extract a POS from a car safely. That was my point above "But damn, this scenario and how to deal with has to be taught in the Academy."
So what's the deal with these ineffective Tasers? I have seen too many videos recently where the things are more of an irritant than an immobilizer. If I was LE, I would have to question their use and go with pepper spray first, then the sidearm. Of course this is the viewpoint of a novice in this area.
Just to throw a grenade into this conversation, the flip side of this is you don't know the guy is hiding a pistol. At the point the sergeant is there, all we have is an expired tag and no license. He's getting a ticket and his car is going to be towed, but that's all we have to go on.
If there's no pistol and he's behaving this way refusing to comply, are folks OK with the officers beating the shit out of him over that?
It sucks that officers are not granted the power of clairvoyance when they stop someone, but much of the posts above are why folks are marching up and down the cities pissed off.
The sergeant was too nice and should have gone to the taser early on, but I'm reading some of the above bullshit like shoving a gun in his face and I completely get why folks are protesting.
I’ll toss that grenade back. Ever notice how after the dust clears that 9 times out of 10 when officers ramp it up on someone that it turns out that subject was a shitstick?
And you did not read? If the taser doesn’t work then I mean...bang. You left little recourse. I don’t care about his moving violation. He’s not getting a gun in his face over that.
You gotta learn how to read people. When someone is bracing, stalling, and already have their line crossed (“I will pull over but not leave vehicle” or “You can come in my house but I’m not leaving the kitchen”), there is a reason for that and it involves the officer.
Every. Single. Time. A perp has tried to modify a stop or a scenario; it was to his advantage.
I’m sorry you think your white boy dindu nuffin. I’m sure he coaches Little League.
But it was never about the tag. It was about control over the scene and how it was going to end. On that tag bullshit, if he was so innocent he could have taken his ticket, caught a ride, cleared it up and gotten it out of impound.
If you missed that or are too much of a lolbertarian then that’s on you.
But a dead man whose last words were “What?” in total disbelief is a hell of a price to pay for treating everyone ’the same’
You understand why people riot, but not why people need a gun in the face?
Okay. Maybe you don’t really understand then.
So what's the deal with these ineffective Tasers? I have seen too many videos recently where the things are more of an irritant than an immobilizer. If I was LE, I would have to question their use and go with pepper spray first, then the sidearm. Of course this is the viewpoint of a novice in this area.
The tasers are fine. They aren’t being used the right way. The prongs are hitting too close and thus not being effective or they are only hitting with one prong.
You also cannot tase after OCing someone because some OC is flammable and they will catch fire.
You need some distance for the prongs to hit right. A drive stun (where they are just hit without prong but the arc of the taser) would have been more effective than what he did.
I have agreed to be drive stunned. I am not a small man. Imagine a charlie horse from blackest hell. It would have matter.
gunnerblue
09-16-20, 09:40
Just to throw a grenade into this conversation, the flip side of this is you don't know the guy is hiding a pistol. At the point the sergeant is there, all we have is an expired tag and no license. He's getting a ticket and his car is going to be towed, but that's all we have to go on.
If there's no pistol and he's behaving this way refusing to comply, are folks OK with the officers beating the shit out of him over that?
It sucks that officers are not granted the power of clairvoyance when they stop someone, but much of the posts above are why folks are marching up and down the cities pissed off.
The sergeant was too nice and should have gone to the taser early on, but I'm reading some of the above bullshit like shoving a gun in his face and I completely get why folks are protesting.
It isn't relevant that the sergeant didn't know that the driver had a weapon. The subject was being allowed to control the scene and the only reason for that level of resistance is that he didn't plan on letting himself be arrested that day. At that point, it isn't about expired tags and tickets, something much bigger is going on. An earlier and overwhelming show of force could very well have saved the sergeant's life.
gunnerblue
09-16-20, 09:42
So what's the deal with these ineffective Tasers? I have seen too many videos recently where the things are more of an irritant than an immobilizer. If I was LE, I would have to question their use and go with pepper spray first, then the sidearm. Of course this is the viewpoint of a novice in this area.
OC (aka pepper spray) isn't always that effective either. It can be fought through by a determined individual, especially one that has been sprayed before and knows the effects, and it doesn't work at all on some people.
I'm really sorry you get a hard-on elevating force to lethal over any non-compliance issue. Good luck with that. I'm just not seeing the words "Judge Dredd" on the shields they currently issue police.
Bad guys walk all day around us because at the moment in time, they're didn't do nuttin. It sucks, but that's the price we have for NOT being in a police state.
I'm really sorry you get a hard-on elevating force to lethal over any non-compliance issue. Good luck with that. I'm just not seeing the words "Judge Dredd" on the shields they currently issue police.
Bad guys walk all day around us because at the moment in time, they're didn't do nuttin. It sucks, but that's the price we have for NOT being in a police state.
A hard on for lethal force? Again, you need to learn to read people. Or at least read what people write.
I said I can speak with some pretty good authority on behalf too nice because I have been guilty of it and it has bitten me in the ass each and every time I did.
It’s not going to be like Schindler’s List or Jews in Germany if officers effect an arrest with the required violence of action. Police state? Hah.
What do you know about bad guys? What do you know about people who walk around every day?
What do you even know, man? What do YOU know?
You weren’t there!
Averageman
09-16-20, 10:43
I dunno, looking at this from my Non-LEO side of the fence, I honestly think, if you're not compliant and I've pretty much run out of alternatives, bad shit is going to happen.
Every time some Yahoo Attorney talks about over zealous LEO's and the escalation of force, the Jury needs to see this video. This guy isn't the size of an NFL Linebacker, he doesn't look particularly skilled in Martial Art, he actually comes off like a little whiny bitch. The only thing he had on his side was a determination to not get handcuffed, and voila, it worked.
Watching OC and a taser fail to change this guys mind, I'm wondering why impact weapons weren't used and if it is about policy, well watch the Video, 'cause policy is sucking right there on tape.
I'm really sorry you get a hard-on elevating force to lethal over any non-compliance issue. Good luck with that. I'm just not seeing the words "Judge Dredd" on the shields they currently issue police.
Bad guys walk all day around us because at the moment in time, they're didn't do nuttin. It sucks, but that's the price we have for NOT being in a police state.
Lol... this guy.
Weird how in all of these events the only one responsible for the outcome is the perp.
Along with the general public who collectively fail to demonstrate even a paltry understanding of use of force
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FromMyColdDeadHand
09-16-20, 10:51
You also cannot tase after OCing someone because some OC is flammable and they will catch fire.
And the downside?
It seems to me you have to stack the pain. OC first, that persists. Then the taser. I’m guessing dealing with burning plus electrocution is pretty miserable.
Business_Casual
09-16-20, 11:00
I'm really sorry you get a hard-on elevating force to lethal over any non-compliance issue. Good luck with that. I'm just not seeing the words "Judge Dredd" on the shields they currently issue police.
Bad guys walk all day around us because at the moment in time, they're didn't do nuttin. It sucks, but that's the price we have for NOT being in a police state.
The flaw in your argument is that he had done something. First he operated a vehicle on the public roads with expired tags. Next, when given a lawful command/order, he failed to comply multiple times.
gunnerblue
09-16-20, 11:23
I'm really sorry you get a hard-on elevating force to lethal over any non-compliance issue. Good luck with that. I'm just not seeing the words "Judge Dredd" on the shields they currently issue police.
Bad guys walk all day around us because at the moment in time, they're didn't do nuttin. It sucks, but that's the price we have for NOT being in a police state.
Reading is fundamental. No one's advocating lethal force for any non-compliance issue. They're saying that more force was necessary in this case and others.
The bad guy in this case was not, in fact, doing "nuttin."
You don't seem to understand policies regarding use of force and/or affecting an arrest.
I'm really sorry you get a hard-on elevating force to lethal over any non-compliance issue. Good luck with that. I'm just not seeing the words "Judge Dredd" on the shields they currently issue police.
Bad guys walk all day around us because at the moment in time, they're didn't do nuttin. It sucks, but that's the price we have for NOT being in a police state.
Did we watch the same video? The guy in the car elevated the situation to lethal means as part of his non-compliance.
See this is what I hate about Officers these days. Too nice or too mean. They are keep repeating themselves to someone who is not listening. Or they shoot a guy begging just to stay still like that Youre Fcked dust cover retard.
I have kind of wondered about this through the years and more so a few years back when the NYPD OIS report (think it was via Rand) where NYPD accuracy in shootings against unarmed people was around 30%, but 8% or 9% when the person was armed along with video of officers coming unglued from the start with a compliant suspect sometimes where no violation had even occurred.
just a scout
09-16-20, 12:44
I’ll toss that grenade back. Ever notice how after the dust clears that 9 times out of 10 when officers ramp it up on someone that it turns out that subject was a shitstick?
And you did not read? If the taser doesn’t work then I mean...bang. You left little recourse. I don’t care about his moving violation. He’s not getting a gun in his face over that.
You gotta learn how to read people. When someone is bracing, stalling, and already have their line crossed (“I will pull over but not leave vehicle” or “You can come in my house but I’m not leaving the kitchen”), there is a reason for that and it involves the officer.
Every. Single. Time. A perp has tried to modify a stop or a scenario; it was to his advantage.
I’m sorry you think your white boy dindu nuffin. I’m sure he coaches Little League.
But it was never about the tag. It was about control over the scene and how it was going to end. On that tag bullshit, if he was so innocent he could have taken his ticket, caught a ride, cleared it up and gotten it out of impound.
If you missed that or are too much of a lolbertarian then that’s on you.
But a dead man whose last words were “What?” in total disbelief is a hell of a price to pay for treating everyone ’the same’
You understand why people riot, but not why people need a gun in the face?
Okay. Maybe you don’t really understand then.
Exactly. Thank you.
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sundance435
09-16-20, 13:18
Not trying to sound callous, and I do not condone in any way what this POS did and I support law enforcement, BUT: These two officers stacked the deck against themselves. They gave the POS an "Option B" and like a wounded animal, he took it. There's very little abstract or rational thought going on in the brain at that point. Knowing the outcome, it's painful to watch the cascading series of poor judgments that culminates in one of the officers losing his life. The most painful part is the lack of really going "hands on" with the perp when they do get physical. They've tazed and peppered the guy. At that point, there's no difference on the use of force spectrum for wailing on the guy to gain compliance. Trying to pull an unwilling person out of car is not easy - you're at a physical disadvantage whether it's a full grown man or a petite woman and I've done both. This is the exact reason you do it at all costs after you've committed.
That said, policing in this day and age is surreal. I think there was room for the pendulum to swing back a bit from "militarization", but it's swung way too far in the other direction. That worries me greatly - breakdown in law & order is the first sign of serious future problems. Anecdotally, in my area, agencies are seeing a decline in applications of 50-75%. These use to be coveted jobs for the stability. Fewer qualified individuals is going to lead to a vicious circle.
Reading is fundamental. No one's advocating lethal force for any non-compliance issue. They're saying that more force was necessary in this case and others.
The bad guy in this case was not, in fact, doing "nuttin."
You don't seem to understand policies regarding use of force and/or affecting an arrest.
No, I'm fairly certain that's exactly what this previous quote implies, "You shove a gun in his face and loudly say “THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER WARNINGS” and mean it."
Looking at this as a non LEO - would this be a good use case for a K9?
Looking at this as a non LEO - would this be a good use case for a K9?
Not specifically, but it wouldn’t have hurt. A third officer would have definitely turned the tide.
I didn’t see the other thread. Sad but it appears the officers lack of decisive action cost the Sergeant his life. You give the driver
A few commands in less than a minute, than tase, than crush the driver for his actions. If you go half ass you can die. Most likely in todays BLM/ Antifa climate the two officers were unwilling to go 100% hands on.
I had same thoughts yup. Watch that vid, reason 9,103,124 I could not do that job.
You shove a gun in his face and loudly say “THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER WARNINGS” and mean it.
See this is what I hate about Officers these days. Too nice or too mean. They are keep repeating themselves to someone who is not listening. Or they shoot a guy begging just to stay still like that Youre Fcked dust cover retard.
When these hoods hear you repeat yourself too much they think you don’t mean it. It’s buying them time. That’s why you should have a non verbal cue to just hammer hard and fast.
I am not gonna pretend to be Bill Blower but here’s what I would have done with as minimal MMQBing as I can muster. Once he started mewling about not wanting out of the car; Ol Sargey poo should have (in a rehearsed dialogue tree with his rookie so he knows said) “Okay he just wants a ticket. Let me go get the book.” Rookie maintains an alert and ready posture and Sarge doubles back where both officers are on same side. If they went to shooting then and there, that could have been crossfire. “Warning arcs” are bullshit.
Then I would have had a better, clearer taser shot. Immediately upon returning he gets shocked and Rookie tries to SEPARATE FROM THE VEHICLE. If taser fails, it’s now a felony stop. Guns are drawn.
When you spray someone, you empty that can. I don’t think the leads connected properly with the taser.
Don’t repeat yourself. I get it. I get it. I get it. Goddamn do I of all people get it. You want compliance. You want a clean arrest. You don’t want to do paperwork. You don’t want to fight. You think if you reword it or say it differently that they will comply. You don’t want a lawsuit. You don’t want an investigation.
BTDT, and I can speak to this with authority because I have been guilty of it.
God forgive me but there are two types of people in this world: people you can talk to and people you have to beat on. He was not someone you can talk to or he would have done it. He was bracing, stalling, and phoning a friend.
SO MANY GOD DAMNED COPS GO INTO SCREEN SAVER MODE OVER A FVCKING PHONE. It’s become Blue kryptonite. That phone is getting him his own back up. Who CARES if he is livestreaming or recording.
You may well get a use of force investigation, you may even have to buy this man a new phone when you break it, but you will be alive.
When you keep repeating yourself you sound like Charlie Brown’s teacher. They don’t care.
The lesson learned is that a violent and gruesome arrest beats getting killed every day of the week.
Quit telegraphing. This isn’t your kid brother being a pain. This is your potential murderer.
We gotta go back old school. Talk to only those who will listen and obey and fist fvck everybody else.
Stay Alert, Stay Alive
Excellent post....
No, I'm fairly certain that's exactly what this previous quote implies, "You shove a gun in his face and loudly say “THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER WARNINGS” and mean it."
Yes. After the OC and Taser fails. If you read that to mean at the initial contact/introduction then you just aren’t reading and can be dismissed from being taken seriously on this subject.
The flaw in your argument is that he had done something. First he operated a vehicle on the public roads with expired tags. Next, when given a lawful command/order, he failed to comply multiple times.
Ill be the first to call BS arrests for BS reasons, BS And for the LEOs out and about going out of their way to hang paper on and jam up folks over said BS they’re doing the job wrong.
Unless it devolves it something after that or there’s a kid tied up and gagged in the back sit it’s here’s your warning, have a nice day, goodbye.
/sidebar
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Looking at this as a non LEO - would this be a good use case for a K9?
Plenty of AOs treat such situations as barricaded subjects and respond accordingly.
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grizzlyblake
09-16-20, 15:09
Is the law written so that a person has to comply with any command of an officer at any time? Or just if there's any minor infraction (driving without tag)?
Does this only apply to vehicles, or could the same be done at a person's house?
Disregarding the shooting incident, I'm curious about the legal chain of events here.
Are there issues with that in Tulsa though? The national climate is obvious, but standards and prosecution are local. And the suspect/POS is white.
Is it possible these officers were being too soft because the guy came across as a whiny little man-child and they didn't think he'd be as much of a threat as he was? Obviously 2020 is a terrible year for police, but I'm not sure how much this one is BLM-related.
My condolences to the slain officer's family.
You’re obviously not familiar with DA Steve Kunzweiler. Yeah, it’s an issue.
There seems to be the thinking that the LE Officers escalated this. They made a lawful stop, and according to case law - Pennsylvania vs. Mimms, decided by the United States Supreme Court, officers can make you leave your vehicle during such as stop. It doesn't even have to be DUI related - just a traffic stop. This goes for any passengers as well.
You also cannot tase after OCing someone because some OC is flammable and they will catch fire.
Most OC sprays now use a water based propellant for this specific reason and are safe to be used with Tasers.
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Is the law written so that a person has to comply with any command of an officer at any time? Or just if there's any minor infraction (driving without tag)?
Does this only apply to vehicles, or could the same be done at a person's house?
Disregarding the shooting incident, I'm curious about the legal chain of events here.
Let’s not take it too far. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant is needed for your home. If police are smart, they show up with a warrant to your home.
Vehicles are on public roads and, by design, driving is NOT a privilege nor is it an absolute right. It is a Qualified right. It’s a long, lengthy, laborious, depressing gyre to get into but suffice it to say it isn’t inherently unconstitutional to require a tag and license.
In the tiers of police contact, they met the litmus for Articulable Reasonable Suspension. At the point of contact the subject was indeed detained and subject to lawful order.
Every traffic stop constitutes a detention. So, I don’t know why people think that is the time to argue, whine, and show ass. During this detention, you are subject to positive identification and lawful order. The officers were certainly well within their authority to remove him from the vehicle. Especially if it had an invalid tag and no insurance.
You do not need a warrant to Terry inventory the vehicle. You only need a warrant to go in locked or inaccessible parts of the vehicle.
With no ARS or Probable Cause, you can ignore an officer if he says hello or hi. But, that is terribly rude.
Sometimes hello is just hello.
Tl:dr
if you are detained, then you are beholden to follow lawful orders
Most OC sprays now use a water based propellant for this specific reason and are safe to be used with Tasers.
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MOST. Not All.
Not every department or neighbor agencies have the same level gear.
I don’t know what these guys had or their policy for tasing after spraying.
Is the law written so that a person has to comply with any command of an officer at any time? Or just if there's any minor infraction (driving without tag)?
Does this only apply to vehicles, or could the same be done at a person's house?
Disregarding the shooting incident, I'm curious about the legal chain of events here.
In this case, POS was driving erratically at 3am. Pulled over with long expired paper tags. Initial contact reveals no license or insurance. He was driving completely illegal and SOP is to tow the car. They weren’t even planning to arrest him until he refused to exit the car. He was allowed to call for a ride because he was not going to be allowed to drive away. POS didn’t want to exit the vehicle because he was in unlawful possession of the concealed handgun, which with his priors would’ve got him arrested.
In this case, POS was driving erratically at 3am. Pulled over with long expired paper tags. Initial contact reveals no license or insurance. He was driving completely illegal and SOP is to tow the car. They weren’t even planning to arrest him until he refused to exit the car. He was allowed to call for a ride because he was not going to be allowed to drive away. POS didn’t want to exit the vehicle because he was in unlawful possession of the concealed handgun, which with his priors would’ve got him arrested.
And that POS chose a path in this contact which will get him either life without parole, or the needle. The other path only required him to stand outside of his vehicle, take the ticket(s) and ask the officers if he could call a friend for a ride. It's possible the handgun wouldn't have been found. They may have even waited with him while the ride was en-route. He chose poorly.
Let’s not take it too far. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant is needed for your home. If police are smart, they show up with a warrant to your home.
Vehicles are on public roads and, by design, driving is NOT a privilege nor is it an absolute right. It is a Qualified right. It’s a long, lengthy, laborious, depressing gyre to get into but suffice it to say it isn’t inherently unconstitutional to require a tag and license.
In the tiers of police contact, they met the litmus for Articulable Reasonable Suspension. At the point of contact the subject was indeed detained and subject to lawful order.
Every traffic stop constitutes a detention. So, I don’t know why people think that is the time to argue, whine, and show ass. During this detention, you are subject to positive identification and lawful order. The officers were certainly well within their authority to remove him from the vehicle. Especially if it had an invalid tag and no insurance.
You do not need a warrant to Terry inventory the vehicle. You only need a warrant to go in locked or inaccessible parts of the vehicle.
With no ARS or Probable Cause, you can ignore an officer if he says hello or hi. But, that is terribly rude.
Sometimes hello is just hello.
Tl:dr
if you are detained, then you are beholden to follow lawful orders
I think grizzlyblake is commenting on the implication that because these 2 officers were shot, every citizen should expect any interaction with an officer to be based on this event.
And is there anything that a person can't be detained over and what exactly is the limit on lawful orders? While I understand not getting in a fight with an officer, the meekly accepting wrong doing and fighting it in court needs to end up with the officer in the wrong having their day in court with their finances and freedom on the line too.
Anyone got the skinny on the other chap arrested & what roll he had / charges??
And that POS chose a path in this contact which will get him either life without parole, or the needle. The other path only required him to stand outside of his vehicle, take the ticket(s) and ask the officers if he could call a friend for a ride. It's possible the handgun wouldn't have been found. They may have even waited with him while the ride was en-route. He chose poorly.
I’d like to add that what would make me seek death penalty was the way he did that quick ‘scan and assess’.
I want to say after he started calling his buddy; that’s when he decided these officers’ fates.
I also think about the great divide. One officer was too rookie the other officer too comfortable.
Stay hungry. Stay vicious.
Every day could be your last. Comfort kills. Not respecting that anybody could break bad, kills.
You will see this again.
I think grizzlyblake is commenting on the implication that because these 2 officers were shot, every citizen should expect any interaction with an officer to be based on this event.
And is there anything that a person can't be detained over and what exactly is the limit on lawful orders? While I understand not getting in a fight with an officer, the meekly accepting wrong doing and fighting it in court needs to end up with the officer in the wrong having their day in court with their finances and freedom on the line too.
Whatever is objectively reasonable. Like I said, don’t take it too far. Everybody is looking for some limit to reach.
Wanting to know your identity on the side of the road and to ask you to exit vehicle until everything is sorted is not unreasonable.
Nobody is asking you to vogue or walk and chew bubblegum.
Police are lazy. I know. I’m lazy. I don’t like doing anything extra or crazy. I just want to do my thing and go home.
Why does everybody think a lawful detention is on par with Amon Goethe lining up Jews in Auschwitz?
A vast majority of the time, Officers stop people who need stopped. GOOD police work is boring.
99% of the time it is either a “slow it down”, a “hey buddy, get it fixed” or “Press hard, 5 copies, online pay, PD number, and court date are on ticket. Be blessed”.
Nobody (real) wants to honestly touch on you, go through your stuff, or be bothered with your personal mess.
I have run across too many used condoms and tampons and other nasty, fetid stuff to really want to go through anybody’s stuff if I do not have to.
I’d like to add that what would make me seek death penalty was the way he did that quick ‘scan and assess’.
I want to say after he started calling his buddy; that’s when he decided these officers’ fates.
I also think about the great divide. One officer was too rookie the other officer too comfortable.
Stay hungry. Stay vicious.
Every day could be your last. Comfort kills. Not respecting that anybody could break bad, kills.
You will see this again.
Were they oblivious or did they pick up on the fact this really was a rotten person? We are seeing police behavior of laissez faire to running away with rioters(who really would lay in to them) while simultaneously not dragging their feet on acting decisively against people defending themselves against the rioters, but currently pose no threat to police.
Were they oblivious or did they pick up on the fact this really was a rotten person? We are seeing police behavior of laissez faire to running away with rioters(who really would lay) in to them while simultaneously not dragging their feet on acting decisively against people defending themselves against the rioters, but currently pose no threat to police.
They weren’t totally oblivious but then they weren’t committed either. Too many warnings. Too much leeway. And the rookie actually backed up when he should have got him some of that ass.
It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.
Like Fight Club or something.
just a scout
09-16-20, 17:02
That’s the reason we used to do pugil sticks, bayonet training and hand to hand in Basic/AIT and at your unit.
I guess that’s too violent now.
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Whatever is objectively reasonable. Like I said, don’t take it too far. Everybody is looking for some limit to reach.
Wanting to know your identity on the side of the road and to ask you to exit vehicle until everything is sorted is not unreasonable.
Nobody is asking you to vogue or walk and chew bubblegum.
Police are lazy. I know. I’m lazy. I don’t like doing anything extra or crazy. I just want to do my thing and go home.
Why does everybody think a lawful detention is on par with Amon Goethe lining up Jews in Auschwitz?
A vast majority of the time, Officers stop people who need stopped. GOOD police work is boring.
99% of the time it is either a “slow it down”, a “hey buddy, get it fixed” or “Press hard, 5 copies, online pay, PD number, and court date are on ticket. Be blessed”.
Nobody (real) wants to honestly touch on you, go through your stuff, or be bothered with your personal mess.
I have run across too many used condoms and tampons and other nasty, fetid stuff to really want to go through anybody’s stuff if I do not have to.
99% of the time, private citizens don't harm police. 1 side of that interaction is expected to treat it as a life or death struggle while the other is supposed to be fine with whatever, no questions asked.
A few segments of society seem to have wildly differing views on what is reasonable though.
I have no problem with these 2 being arrested, put on trial, and, if convicted, suffering the consequences. That seems reasonable to me.
Meanwhile, something that seems reasonable to the powers that be, that I find entirely unreasonable, is Sgt. Billy Wheeler not being arrested on the scene(which means more than 1 bad apple on scene), no charges once it became known(multiple levels of rotten apples), and none of them ever suffering the slightest consequence for his action/their inaction.
https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/you-broke-my-wrist-video-shows-georgia-officer-body-slam-black-man-case-mistaken-identity/EKEFVPHRPJGD7OW6MOKFJMDDXI/
They weren’t totally oblivious but then they weren’t committed either. Too many warnings. Too much leeway. And the rookie actually backed up when he should have got him some of that ass.
It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.
Like Fight Club or something.
That's what i am getting at. Some law abiding dude is easy to run roughshod over while the more feral leaning people that will attack aren't so fun to deal with and let alone. We are getting to see quite a bit of both lately.
99% of the time, private citizens don't harm police. 1 side of that interaction is expected to treat it as a life or death struggle while the other is supposed to be fine with whatever, no questions asked.
A few segments of society seem to have wildly differing views on what is reasonable though.
I have no problem with these 2 being arrested, put on trial, and, if convicted, suffering the consequences. That seems reasonable to me.
Meanwhile, something that seems reasonable to the powers that be, that I find entirely unreasonable, is Sgt. Billy Wheeler not being arrested on the scene(which means more than 1 bad apple on scene), no charges once it became known(multiple levels of rotten apples), and none of them ever suffering the slightest consequence for his action/their inaction.
https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/you-broke-my-wrist-video-shows-georgia-officer-body-slam-black-man-case-mistaken-identity/EKEFVPHRPJGD7OW6MOKFJMDDXI/
You know what I had to learn the hard way?
It’s not normal to see nasty people all the time. It’s not normal to be exposed to bad things.
Regular people can go years without seeing a dead body or a crackhead defecating themselves.
Not all people are bad, but it’s different. I don’t know what to tell you about the black guy in your video.
I mean, the PD is downtown. Go sign up and show everyone how it’s done. Let me guess, “it doesn’t pay enough”.
That's what i am getting at. Some law abiding dude is easy to run roughshod over while the more feral leaning people that will attack aren't so fun to deal with and let alone. We are getting to see quite a bit of both lately.
So now it’s about getting walking licks then?
Everybody wants to be Johnny Cochrane but nobody wants to be Ron Goldman
They weren’t totally oblivious but then they weren’t committed either. Too many warnings. Too much leeway. And the rookie actually backed up when he should have got him some of that ass.
It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.
Like Fight Club or something.
+1000
We have the Taser generation in LE, or as I think of them, Generation T. Many new officers have never been in ANY fight in their lives and been punched before, let alone a REAL fight. They have been so ingrained not to fight growing up in the zero tolerance environment of schools that they have a hard time going hands on with bad guys. Some just can't.
Agency and Academy taught defensive/control tactics training is usually designed more about lowering liability than effectiveness. If there is anywhere that that is not the case, I am not aware of it.
It used to be that an FTO quickly taught his trainee in the first few weeks how life really works when fighting an assaultive suspect. "No, your sankajo isn't what got him under control. That was me grabbing him by the balls and hair. He bounced off the wall because I shoved him against it to disrupt his thinking. Forget most of what they taught you at the academy. Most of that stuff will get you killed." "No, don't tell him you are going to spray him with OC. It will lose at least half its effectiveness that way. He should find out he is going to get sprayed when he feels it in his face."
Then the Taser came along. True hands-on became less common during FTO training, and the old ways became old war stories.
The Taser generation expects the Taser to solve all problems. It works well, building a false sense of security for members of Generation T until it doesn't work. When a member of Generation T encounters a true believer or a feral and the Taser fails for their first time, if they haven't already been taught how to really fight, both on their feet and on the ground, or are unable to overcome their inhibitions, they are often at a loss as to how to handle things and vapor lock. It is a good way to die by the numbers.
Kind of like how you need to know how to use a map and compass in case your GPS dies, it is critical to have the skills and mindset to be able to with no Buck Rogers toys, just your own hands, feet, elbows, knees, and head, close with a bad guy, break him down, dominate him in a ground fight, and get cuffs on him, control him until help arrives, or whatever more drastic action may be necessary. It isn't pretty. But it beats getting beaten to a pulp and shot with your own gun.
99% of the time, private citizens don't harm police. 1 side of that interaction is expected to treat it as a life or death struggle while the other is supposed to be fine with whatever, no questions asked.
And 99% of the time LE does not harm citizens not committing crimes. Ten of thousands of interactions per year or more that end with no drama. Terrible things do happen, bad cops exist, etc etc, and there is a blue wall of silence, yet by the numbers, people are very safe in this nation as far as LEO is concerned. They can always do a better job, but citizens have to play their part in that too.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-16-20, 18:07
There is always the discussion of the Black Family Talk. The version in circulation seems to be outdated, and in need of being expanded in deployment. I think that as part of getting your license, that you should have to watch videos of what and what not to do, and then what the force ladder looks like for non-compliance, and then you get tested on it. No way to say that you don't understand what is happening- by officer or driver.
john armond
09-16-20, 18:11
I’d like to add that what would make me seek death penalty was the way he did that quick ‘scan and assess’.
I want to say after he started calling his buddy; that’s when he decided these officers’ fates.
I also think about the great divide. One officer was too rookie the other officer too comfortable.
Stay hungry. Stay vicious.
Every day could be your last. Comfort kills. Not respecting that anybody could break bad, kills.
You will see this again.
Scan and Assess, and the fact that he stood over the officer and put three more rounds in him should be more than sufficient for a death penalty. This part was edited out of the video, but was stated in the report, and by either the Chief or the Mayor. I linked to several articles from different sources stating same.
sandsunsurf
09-16-20, 19:40
Lots of reasonable questions and responses here. I'll throw in my $0.02 for a few:
Short answer to where the deadliest failure was: Cops these days aren't trained or experienced in the hands-on part of the fight and arrest. In this case, they grabbed arms and danced and lost the suspect's arms multiple times. Forget all of the other use of force options; the taser and OC failed. And even when they work, you STILL HAVE TO PUT HANDS ON THE BAD GUY. I have posted before and talked with several LEO friends that for the last 5-10 years we are seeing a lack of ability and desire to go hands on (see Generation T above from @CrashAxe). When everything else failed, they should have committed to hands on (or done it earlier, thus not needing increased levels of force). Grab the arm and hold on (better experience and training makes this doable) and lock out a joint and take him out of the car, or just grab his dang hair and pull his head forcefully to the ground. Where the head goes, the body follows. As the fight really became more of a fight, then knowing how to put him in a clinch and deliver a knee to the body or head would have been legit and useful. It's a tight space, so maybe that wouldn't have worked, but as the arm gets pulled away for the 4th or 5th time, maybe an elbow or "closed fist strike" to the temple would have been the better option. Any way you put it, it was way past TIME TO COMMIT. The officers lost control of him at least 9 times. The rookie officer does try a clinch once the bad guy is out of the car, but he doesn't know what to do from there and that's when bad guy circles and gets a gun. The officer would have been better off doing an old-school hair-pull take down. I'd love to see a Gracie Breakdown of this..
Early in the stop, the Sgt should not have continued to give commands that aren't being followed. Ask, tell, make (as said above).
I like the idea of the Sgt having a "secret phrase" then moving to the same side, but not realistic in many agencies (maybe with a partner you work with every day). Then after that time in the video is when the Taser fails. It "fails" out of user error (or at least a known fact about tasers) which is that the officer is too close for the prongs to spread far enough to get actual muscle "lock-up". That's where a drive-stun is appropriate. Discharge the taser, then move the taser far away from the prong location and make secondary contact with the taser muzzle- in this case, open the passenger door discharge at dude's thigh, then drive the taser to the chest or under the armpit. Then the rookie can come in and get a good grip on the bad guy and they can make a plan for extraction from there.
Pepper spray can be effective for getting the fight out of many people, but as mentioned a focused person can fight through it pretty easily. The officer should have made SURE the OC went into the eyes and mouth and nose, but too much can keep the carrier from evaporating enough to really let the OC burn.
Regards to a K9, yes K9 for vehicle extractions is useful, but (sorry K9 guys) they're never there when you need them. Just like the helicopter. Somebody suggested making this a barricaded subject type call, but two things come to mind: First, it's still just a vehicle code violation. Second, we don't know if the keys are still in the car, but disengaging and leaving the bad guy in the car seems like a recipe for him to either drive away or get the gun and be ready for the next victim officers.
Shoving a gun in his face is, in my opinion, a bad idea. I subscribe to the mantra Never Go Hands On With A Gun In Your Own Hand. I'd rather see more committed hands on.
It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.
Like Fight Club or something.
The Army's combatives program requires you to "clinch" an experienced opponent for just that reason - you learn to fight through the punches and just do what you trained to do.
Andy
Thanks for the responses re: dogs.
I know applications are at all time lows but it does sound like minimum combative standards would help bridge that gap on the force ladder.
Lots of reasonable questions and responses here. I'll throw in my $0.02 for a few:
Short answer to where the deadliest failure was: Cops these days aren't trained or experienced in the hands-on part of the fight and arrest. In this case, they grabbed arms and danced and lost the suspect's arms multiple times. Forget all of the other use of force options; the taser and OC failed. And even when they work, you STILL HAVE TO PUT HANDS ON THE BAD GUY. I have posted before and talked with several LEO friends that for the last 5-10 years we are seeing a lack of ability and desire to go hands on (see Generation T above from @CrashAxe). When everything else failed, they should have committed to hands on (or done it earlier, thus not needing increased levels of force). Grab the arm and hold on (better experience and training makes this doable) and lock out a joint and take him out of the car, or just grab his dang hair and pull his head forcefully to the ground. Where the head goes, the body follows. As the fight really became more of a fight, then knowing how to put him in a clinch and deliver a knee to the body or head would have been legit and useful. It's a tight space, so maybe that wouldn't have worked, but as the arm gets pulled away for the 4th or 5th time, maybe an elbow or "closed fist strike" to the temple would have been the better option. Any way you put it, it was way past TIME TO COMMIT. The officers lost control of him at least 9 times. The rookie officer does try a clinch once the bad guy is out of the car, but he doesn't know what to do from there and that's when bad guy circles and gets a gun. The officer would have been better off doing an old-school hair-pull take down. I'd love to see a Gracie Breakdown of this..
Early in the stop, the Sgt should not have continued to give commands that aren't being followed. Ask, tell, make (as said above).
I like the idea of the Sgt having a "secret phrase" then moving to the same side, but not realistic in many agencies (maybe with a partner you work with every day). Then after that time in the video is when the Taser fails. It "fails" out of user error (or at least a known fact about tasers) which is that the officer is too close for the prongs to spread far enough to get actual muscle "lock-up". That's where a drive-stun is appropriate. Discharge the taser, then move the taser far away from the prong location and make secondary contact with the taser muzzle- in this case, open the passenger door discharge at dude's thigh, then drive the taser to the chest or under the armpit. Then the rookie can come in and get a good grip on the bad guy and they can make a plan for extraction from there.
Pepper spray can be effective for getting the fight out of many people, but as mentioned a focused person can fight through it pretty easily. The officer should have made SURE the OC went into the eyes and mouth and nose, but too much can keep the carrier from evaporating enough to really let the OC burn.
Regards to a K9, yes K9 for vehicle extractions is useful, but (sorry K9 guys) they're never there when you need them. Just like the helicopter. Somebody suggested making this a barricaded subject type call, but two things come to mind: First, it's still just a vehicle code violation. Second, we don't know if the keys are still in the car, but disengaging and leaving the bad guy in the car seems like a recipe for him to either drive away or get the gun and be ready for the next victim officers.
Shoving a gun in his face is, in my opinion, a bad idea. I subscribe to the mantra Never Go Hands On With A Gun In Your Own Hand. I'd rather see more committed hands on.
I don’t mean literally shove a gun in his face. But they botched it so bad that the only possible salvage point was to make it a felony arrest and draw down on him for compliance.
But I agree, a better, harder hands on approach would have won the day. Get that good armbar and torque. If it breaks, “Sooooooorry bout that”.
Temple check, throat check, and hell of a good nut check would have come in handy. If not shut it down.
I won’t lie. I’m a big guy. Seriously. Like Shaq big. And will still kick a guy in the balls like I was going for a field goal. I will bend it like Beckham
But yeah, they need to do more fighting. Not that Aikido dance crap. Like...when Aikido works, it works well. But no basic officer really trains to that level. But good old fashioned American ass stomping should be second nature. Also start carrying maglites again. Oh boy, can you tune someone up with a maglite.
But yes, cogent points. Thank you.
Thanks for the responses re: dogs.
I know applications are at all time lows but it does sound like minimum combative standards would help bridge that gap on the force ladder.
I’ll call a spade a spade. It’s to draw in more women. Nothing against women police but the women police now are not like the good ol days. At least years back you got tomboys who, in all fairness, would still try to push through even if they let their alligator mouth overload their hummingbird asses.
Now you don’t even get the butches or tomboys. Now it’s Karens and Shaniquas who say “Aw naw I don’t do all that” and leave.
And the milquetoast people who think you can talk everything out like Full House.
Granted, the political atmosphere isn’t helping and the Beau Geste days of law enforcement are long over but sometimes you gotta stomp dat ayssh.
Didn't LE used to carry a collapsible baton called an ASP? I've had the chance to play with one and they could be an effective, non-lethal, but pain inducing persuader. Are they not part of the officer's kit any longer? A pop across the kneecap or shin could render the violent person more compliant.
I've asked before, no more billy clubs? Seems like the tasers are not getting the job done. They need to up the amps on those. They never seem to work, but people think that they stop anyone in their tracks. Seems like the worst piece of kit ever. I'd rather see them go with not-intentionally-leathal bean bag shot gun rounds.
So damn sad.
Most PDs lost ALL impact weapons following Rodney King. No more batons, PR-24s or anything because some undertrained individuals (hello LAPD) would lose their shit and turn everything into a riot baton.
Didn't LE used to carry a collapsible baton called an ASP? I've had the chance to play with one and they could be an effective, non-lethal, but pain inducing persuader. Are they not part of the officer's kit any longer? A pop across the kneecap or shin could render the violent person more compliant.
Yeah but they really suck as an actual impact weapon. I still keep mine as a reacher stick or my “ten foot pole” or if something needs poked, prodded, or whatnot. They DO make a good vehicle window entry tool but as a whoopass stick, they fall short. I have bent them too much on people (yes, even swinging it the way it is meant to be swung). I mean, maglites just work. Except as a flashlight. I use my Surefire for seeing stuff, maglites for attitude adjustment
Didn't LE used to carry a collapsible baton called an ASP? I've had the chance to play with one and they could be an effective, non-lethal, but pain inducing persuader. Are they not part of the officer's kit any longer? A pop across the kneecap or shin could render the violent person more compliant.
Taser has all but replaced impact weapons for many departments.
Sent from 80ms in the future
I'm really sorry you get a hard-on elevating force to lethal over any non-compliance issue. Good luck with that. I'm just not seeing the words "Judge Dredd" on the shields they currently issue police.
Bad guys walk all day around us because at the moment in time, they're didn't do nuttin. It sucks, but that's the price we have for NOT being in a police state.
If they forcefully eject the guy from the vehicle and arm bar him to the pavement while they cuff and stuff him and it turns out he was simply confused, had a mental condition or otherwise impaired you can always apologize later and everyone is still alive.
This stuff isn't really even a discussion and I think I'd rather get "handled" then tased.
Taser has all but replaced impact weapons for many departments.
Based on the videos I have seen, the Taser doesn't seem that effective at close range since the darts/probes impact too close to each other. I would think an old fashioned side-handle baton or collapsible impact weapon like the ASP would still work better. I am just glad I never picked LE for a career. I wouldn't have the patience to absorb the abuse these valued members of society have to take. A much better person than me that's for sure.
Based on the videos I have seen, the Taser doesn't seem that effective at close range since the darts/probes impact too close to each other. I would think an old fashioned side-handle baton or collapsible impact weapon like the ASP would still work better. I am just glad I never picked LE for a career. I wouldn't have the patience to absorb the abuse these valued members of society have to take. A much better person than me that's for sure.
The ASP does not have a great rep as an impact weapon among LE that takes the fight out of people as needed when needed, but other designs apparently much more effective. There was a thread on that here I recall. Other brands other than the ASP were much preferred.
Yeah but they really suck as an actual impact weapon. I still keep mine as a reacher stick or my “ten foot pole” or if something needs poked, prodded, or whatnot. They DO make a good vehicle window entry tool but as a whoopass stick, they fall short. I have bent them too much on people (yes, even swinging it the way it is meant to be swung). I mean, maglites just work. Except as a flashlight. I use my Surefire for seeing stuff, maglites for attitude adjustment
How many D batteries worth are we talking about ?
just a scout
09-16-20, 23:03
How many D batteries worth are we talking about ?
Six was pretty good. Enough length and weight without getting in the way
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Let’s not take it too far. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant is needed for your home. If police are smart, they show up with a warrant to your home.
Vehicles are on public roads and, by design, driving is NOT a privilege nor is it an absolute right. It is a Qualified right. It’s a long, lengthy, laborious, depressing gyre to get into but suffice it to say it isn’t inherently unconstitutional to require a tag and license.
In the tiers of police contact, they met the litmus for Articulable Reasonable Suspension. At the point of contact the subject was indeed detained and subject to lawful order.
Every traffic stop constitutes a detention. So, I don’t know why people think that is the time to argue, whine, and show ass. During this detention, you are subject to positive identification and lawful order. The officers were certainly well within their authority to remove him from the vehicle. Especially if it had an invalid tag and no insurance.
You do not need a warrant to Terry inventory the vehicle. You only need a warrant to go in locked or inaccessible parts of the vehicle.
With no ARS or Probable Cause, you can ignore an officer if he says hello or hi. But, that is terribly rude.
Sometimes hello is just hello.
Tl:dr
if you are detained, then you are beholden to follow lawful orders
I would add, even if you are right, you usually can't win on the side of the road.
I have had traffic stops where I was 100% positive I was correct and the officer was wrong, in every case I resolved it with the shift supervisor the next day. Everything got corrected, no lawyers necessary because I didn't escalate it into an arrest.
There are even situations where I was 100% wrong, usually some form of creative driving and I managed to not get a ticket because I simply know how to talk to the police in a calm and rationale manner and could "mostly explain" what the hell I was doing. That I'm never under the influence, don't take small shit personally and can own up to stupid driving maneuvers goes a long way.
And that POS chose a path in this contact which will get him either life without parole, or the needle. The other path only required him to stand outside of his vehicle, take the ticket(s) and ask the officers if he could call a friend for a ride. It's possible the handgun wouldn't have been found. They may have even waited with him while the ride was en-route. He chose poorly.
Or it could have been knocked down to some kind of misdemeanor. But this guy was willing to kill two cops so he "doesn't get in trouble" and with that mindset it was only a matter of time before he eventually killed someone or a lot of people. This is like me killing somebody because I forgot my wallet and can't pay for dinner. So many options exist besides "kill everyone in the restaurant" it isn't even funny. But somehow if you wack out a couple cops because you are "driving without paperwork" and are in possession of a "illegal firearm" 40% of the country goes "Yeah...I can understand why a dude might do that."
Were they oblivious or did they pick up on the fact this really was a rotten person? We are seeing police behavior of laissez faire to running away with rioters(who really would lay in to them) while simultaneously not dragging their feet on acting decisively against people defending themselves against the rioters, but currently pose no threat to police.
Problem is, killers usually don't telegraph their intentions. Really efficient killers are practiced and give zero warning. Really bad people sometimes know all of this stuff.
They weren’t totally oblivious but then they weren’t committed either. Too many warnings. Too much leeway. And the rookie actually backed up when he should have got him some of that ass.
It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.
Like Fight Club or something.
You'd lost 50% of your PD and most of them would sue for "hostile work environment."
You and I think..."this shit will keep you alive...we are trying to keep you alive." 50% of the PD is thinking "this is BS...I just want to show up and do job like everyone else...I shouldn't have to be subjected to this kind of treatment...these guys are just being dicks."
How many cops do you know personally that probably shouldn't be cops? I can think of PDs where if it were up to me I'd shitcan 40% of their street cops and reassign another 20%. I think I could hire people from a radio call in show and have better candidates in most cases.
I've seen people who would have made great LEOs but didn't get it because they screwed up some level of the vetting process, said what they think rather than what people wanted to hear on the interview or simply didn't have "the look" that they wanted for their PD. I also know a bunch of scary dudes who sailed right through the process because they were coached, helped and some sketchy shit was overlooked.
Most PDs lost ALL impact weapons following Rodney King. No more batons, PR-24s or anything because some undertrained individuals (hello LAPD) would lose their shit and turn everything into a riot baton.LAPD still has ASPs and PR-24s.
Just no Maglites or SL20Xs.
Having watched all that and having read the entire thread, What is the preferred method for dealing with this?
This is my opinion and my opinion only, worth every bit you paid for it.
As the video starts, the officer who made the stop is standing, back to the offender, talking to the Sergeant. The Sergeant, probably, reacting more to how the other officer approached and positioned, seems to be looking into the strobes, perhaps he could see over them since it appears his bodycam is on his chest. In any event, the officer should have positioned himself so he could watch the vehicle HE had apparently stopped, and let the Sergeant position himself appropriately.
Talking him out didn't work. Like FF said, they let it go on to long. I'm a nice guy, I believe verbal judo works on some folks, but, there are cues when it isn't and the officer went past those cues, circled back around, and then went past them again. Words you don't say - 'I'm going to tell you one last time' everytime you say that and don't take action, you empower the subject you are dealing with to further resist. Counting down, again, when you get to zero and don't do anything.....
Tazing him didn't work.tying to drag him out didn't work. The TASER requires about 12 inches of probe spread, ideally in different well-muscled quadrants of the body to lock someone up. A good window is 7 to 15 feet. I don't know how far the Sergeant was when he deployed, but I'd think shy of seven feet. Additionally, had the tase been effective, the car was between the two officers. Getting him out of the vehicle and controlling to cuff without a disconnect would be problematic.
A better option would have been for the Sergeant to come to the driver's side, and do a probe in driver stun - you fire the taser at close range getting two darts in close together, and then ground the front of the taser into another part of the body at least 12-14 inches away (drive stun) - this locks the guy up, and your other officer can grab him and get him out for control.
The problem in that I was a TASER instructor for over a decade, all that is second nature to me, these guys probably had the original shake-and-bake class, then a minimal re-certification. TASER training should at a minimum be 16 hours, preferably 24. That way you get to do multiple reps of arrest and control drills. Nobody wants to do that (well, some officers might, but how often do you hear of agencies saying 'go beyond the minimum' for defensive tactics training?)
TASER, deployed properly would have worked, but, given the level of TASER training, understandable why it didn't.
Spraying him with pepper spray didn't work. Again training. The introduction of OC into the subject's face should be a fvcking surprise. You should not display the OC projector to the suspect, you should not warn 'Comply or I'm going to spray you.' All those things just give the subject time to duck their head, throw there arm up, etc. Which this guy did.
Additionally, many officers are too nice when using OC, they give the subject a little baby spray instead of a continuous 2 to 3 second discharge into the target area.
Once again, a training issue. Many agencies give you OC and after initial training figure 'it's so simple a caveman could do it' and let it go.
Another thing that we need to keep in mind, many officers, even in large jurisdictions, can go for extended periods between handling belligerent folks like this. When incidents like this confront those officers, it may take them a while to get up to speed.
I hope officer who watch the video can learn from it.
God Speed SErgeant, hope the other officer recovers fully.
Anyone got the skinny on the other chap arrested & what roll he had / charges??
I believe there are two, but don’t quote me on it. The one who picked him up at the scene for accessory after the fact, then there’s the customer who traded the gun for heroin. He just got charged this week.
One thing would have changed everything, when they went to take him out of the car a sap to the jaw.
LAPD still has ASPs and PR-24s.
Just no Maglites or SL20Xs.
Well that is cause maglites make that racist noise. Are any of them allowed to take the PR-24s out in the street or do they have to stay in the parking lot to play with them.
This video is a sad commentary on the State of the USA.
For decades police have been forced to become more PC and less ass kickers.
My second FTO gave me advice that I will never forget. Start every normal contact like the civilian is your parents, if they change the equation, then be prepared to use reasonable force. Reasonable force can mean give them as ass whipping or shoot them, it depends on them not you.
I will repeat, a 14oz sap upside the jaw would have solved this in the blink of an eye.
Well that is cause maglites make that racist noise. Are any of them allowed to take the PR-24s out in the street or do they have to stay in the parking lot to play with them.
I am not a cop, but on the advice of my buddy's dad, who is a retired cop, is to have a 4 D cell Maglite handy..
I am not a cop, but on the advice of my buddy's dad, who is a retired cop, is to have a 4 D cell Maglite handy..
I remember we used to swap out krypton bulbs with halogens, I imagine today there is some kind of LED upgrade. That is my advice.
I remember we used to swap out krypton bulbs with halogens, I imagine today there is some kind of LED upgrade. That is my advice.
There are LED upgrades, about 280 lumens.
I keep a 3 cell in my truck for "emergencies", probably should find a longer one.
Andy
https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/maglite-drop-ins-and-accessories. I haven't ordered the maglite upgrade yet but I do have the 6p led upgrade in an old surefire that started life as a incandescent rated for 100 lumens great for looking around a vehicle or large room without a lot of glare
Averageman
09-17-20, 09:12
I wonder if I could take a "D" Cell Mag Light and an Aluminium Baseball bat and.....
I can't keep things like that in my Car, I have issues with idiots and try to avoid them, but damn. When you're trying to change lanes and the idiot wont let you in because he is busy texting and suddenly a space opens and you are in it, well Mr "I'm Texting" suddenly loses his sh*t.
Happens everyday, so if I had something like that in the Truck, I'm more likely to use it.
A Firearm is final, so I have never had the thought, "I would like to shoot that MF'er"
A butt whipping however has by my observation is sometimes a real game changer when it comes to an attitude/compliance reset.
Given these two choices;
A) The death penalty / be shot dead.
or
B) he gets his nose broken with a flashlight and goes to jail.
I'm sure every Mom in America would choose "B" for her Son.
This video is a sad commentary on the State of the USA.
For decades police have been forced to become more PC and less ass kickers.
My second FTO gave me advice that I will never forget. Start every normal contact like the civilian is your parents, if they change the equation, then be prepared to use reasonable force. Reasonable force can mean give them as ass whipping or shoot them, it depends on them not you.
I will repeat, a 14oz sap upside the jaw would have solved this in the blink of an eye.
And so is this video. The sergeant here had no qualms with escalating the situation where there was no threat.
https://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/valdosta-police-sued-for-700k-in-excessive-force-case/article_e5272248-b4c4-11ea-bb96-13027dc5665b.html
So the question(or questions) is how to get officers trained to know when to ramp it up and when not to? Or are both cases conditioned responses where the Valdosta sergeant acted because he knew there was no threat while the Oklahoma officers were hesitant because they knew he would fight? Allegedly, during the dude's initial arrest a few years back he threatened to kill Johnson.
https://apnews.com/9ad774361585d1e0b902fadb09a8fec2
I wonder if I could take a "D" Cell Mag Light and an Aluminium Baseball bat and.....
I can't keep things like that in my Car, I have issues with idiots and try to avoid them, but damn. When you're trying to change lanes and the idiot wont let you in because he is busy texting and suddenly a space opens and you are in it, well Mr "I'm Texting" suddenly loses his sh*t.
Happens everyday, so if I had something like that in the Truck, I'm more likely to use it.
A Firearm is final, so I have never had the thought, "I would like to shoot that MF'er"
A butt whipping however has by my observation is sometimes a real game changer when it comes to an attitude/compliance reset.
Given these two choices;
A) The death penalty / be shot dead.
or
B) he gets his nose broken with a flashlight and goes to jail.
I'm sure every Mom in America would choose "B" for her Son.
There's now aluminum baseball bat flashlights BTW. No idea if they're any good but there's a bunch of them of various designs and such:
https://www.amazon.com/CHICIRIS-Flashlight-Waterproof-Maintenance-Emergency/dp/B08CKY2ZJ4/
I seem to recall C cell Maglites getting better club reviews than D cell. Think the pro's were smaller grip, lighter weight, and faster speed.
Averageman
09-17-20, 11:13
I seem to recall C cell Maglites getting better club reviews than D cell. Think the pro's were smaller grip, lighter weight, and faster speed.
Perhaps the preference for the "C" cell was that it require less lubrication to send the guy in to the Holding Cell with a built in night light?
Perhaps the preference for the "C" cell was that it require less lubrication to send the guy in to the Holding Cell with a built in night light?
Don’t be ridiculous
.....that’s what mop handles are for :jester:
joedirt199
09-17-20, 12:09
He lulled them in playing the passive resistance game and making them feel he wasn't a threat. That is why there was no pain compliance or strikes. When he saw them gearing up a bit, up he took it further than they were ready. Their pepper spray brand looked like shit. Very arresally and not sticky stream. Too many depts get dependant on tasers. Ours put such limiting factors in the policy that I gave the taser back to the armorer. Hard to get an effective baton strike on someone in a car. Still begs the question of how far to push something as minor as traffic offenses and an hour in jail to affect the arrest.
Still begs the question of how far to push something as minor as traffic offenses and an hour in jail to affect the arrest.
That's where I was going earlier. The threat of the taser didn't stop the clown. At that point, my question is why not call the impound truck. If the guy still won't/doesn't get out so it can be hooked up, have them boot the car, give him a ticket for failure to have license and registration and issue a summons for disorderly conduct. Get back in your squad car and move on.
That's where I was going earlier. The threat of the taser didn't stop the clown. At that point, my question is why not call the impound truck. If the guy still won't/doesn't get out so it can be hooked up, have them boot the car, give him a ticket for failure to have license and registration and issue a summons for disorderly conduct. Get back in your squad car and move on.
What all you just said reminds me of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDqx0gfYi-o
That's where I was going earlier. The threat of the taser didn't stop the clown. At that point, my question is why not call the impound truck. If the guy still won't/doesn't get out so it can be hooked up, have them boot the car, give him a ticket for failure to have license and registration and issue a summons for disorderly conduct. Get back in your squad car and move on.
Then he would have probably shot the tow truck driver. There's no guarantee if one side de-escalates, the other side will reciprocate. So now the argument is to have police back down and let the average citizen handle it?
Then he would have probably shot the tow truck driver. There's no guarantee if one side de-escalates, the other side will reciprocate. So now the argument is to have police back down and let the average citizen handle it?
Curious at what point in what I wrote I said the tow truck driver was left the handle the situation by himself.
The sad thing is, we are living in a world where many officers are becoming hesitant to go hands on, or use excessive force, for fear of repercussions. Unfortunately, this will continue to get officers killed.
It's been discussed before, but the Sgt should have tased from the drivers side, and much quicker after 1 warning. They gave the driver way too much time to decide to go for his gun. Once they realized he wasn't going to be compliant, speed and violence of action should have been used immediately to get him under control. Hopefully it will be a good learning experience for future training.
Then he would have probably shot the tow truck driver. There's no guarantee if one side de-escalates, the other side will reciprocate. So now the argument is to have police back down and let the average citizen handle it?
Or what is the liability to the LEOs if the guy was under the influence of what ever drives off and kills someones kid? Or he's so pissed they took his car he carjacks someone and kills them? And on it goes. That kid was obviously a violent felon on the edge and letting him walk to deescalate more than likely just pushing it off at best, if not as you say, leaving some civi to deal with it. Obviously the kid was pinging the LEOs trouble meter, they just didn't realize how dangerous and how much trouble he was. Over confidence is a killer too.
Dealing with him there and then was the right thing to do in my non LEO opinion and it just sucks they were lulled by him, no doubt going the extra extra mile to not appear too aggressive and such in these modern times, and it cost them badly.
All I see is a kid who needed to be dealt with hard and fast and with intent once is was very obvious he was not coming out of that car and had no plans to follow lawful orders, and he'd being jail and they'd go home to their kids.
As always, it's multi factorial event that likely includes current climate LE has to deal with causing them to drag it out too long, his doing a great job of acting and lulling them into thinking he was a harmless blubbering idiot, lack of realistic training, and so on.
My non LEO opinion, maybe once it's established the person is not going to follow the commands, empty the can of OC into his face, call for K9, or another unit, let him sit there while his face and eyes burn off and consider how much worse it's about to get.
I hope it ends up being one of the classic training examples and vids used to at leas drive home for other LEOs why you don't get into a lengthy debate and discussion with people in such situations and what ever lessons can be taken from it so others may live.
Curious at what point in what I wrote I said the tow truck driver was left the handle the situation by himself.
At the point said officers return to their patrol vehicle and let Mr. Tow Truck attempt to boot the car. He would have been the fellow in the lead trying to do his job with an armed maniac not willing to allow that.
At some point someone or something has to give. There's always an element of sovereign citizen mentality which pops out from time to time in small hints on gun forums, but in a lawful and stable society, those types can't be allowed to operate with total immunity. Armed maniac and reckless illegal driver, was exerting his Rights to not be removed from that car, no matter what. Just another small example of social breakdown.
I don’t want to really go totally down this rabbit hole but I have dealt with Sovereign Citizens before.
They think the law applies to everyone but them through some weird loopholes of half-truths, anecdotal conjecture, and whatever lies they read on Stormfront.
Which is why I get SUPER skeptical of whatever comes out of a lolbertarian’s suckhole.
Like, IDGAF if you want UZIs, hookers, or to rot your brain getting high all day. But they also start losing me with AoC being 11 and not thinking DUI should be a crime.
So, cucking the police to where they say “Well gee golly gosh, he just doesn’t want to go to jail. I guess we’d better just leave and let the tow truck guy deal with it” is frankly pretty asinine.
Don’t expect other people to live up this whole idea of Americanism. Doesn’t work that way. Never has, never will. It smacks of Arfcommery.
The guy in that car was a low life. Low lifes need to be off the street either in a jail or in a cooler.
Wanting law and order doesn’t mean the police are automatically Totenkopf SS. If you want life like the 50s, understand that it was like that for a reason. The shitsticks got beaten or shot with no quarter given for their whining and Curbside Johnny Cochran spiel. See....that’s what makes me sick.
Nobody cites all these legal shit until their ass is in a sling and then they play Matlock. Where was this legal knowledge when it came time to renew your tags or pay your car insurance?
At the point said officers return to their patrol vehicle and let Mr. Tow Truck attempt to boot the car. He would have been the fellow in the lead trying to do his job with an armed maniac not willing to allow that.
.
Not arguing with OH58, just pondering on what would happen:
And what's to keep that psycho from driving off while the officers were waiting for the tow truck? Then it's a car chase and when they finally stop him again, we're back to square one ... he refuses to obey order and exits the car.
Somebody mentioned a Maglite or some other kind of baton/impact weapon. It's pretty tough to employ some kind of strikes within the tiny space of a car cabin, I doubt it would have made any difference. Once they lost their hold on him and he broke free to go back to get his hidden weapon, it's over.
The guy was a nut to start. Who would fight the police and then shoot them for his initial non violence violations? He was a bat sh!t crazy nut. All that double talk that came out of his mouth. He wasn't going to obey the lawful order, so force of some kind was going to remove him, maybe if there were more manpower there, they could have removed him from the car ... maybe better tactics/techniques to force him to comply ... or maybe it would just ended up in a shooting. Sadly an officer lost his life in this horrible lesson.
I don’t want to really go totally down this rabbit hole but I have dealt with Sovereign Citizens before.
They think the law applies to everyone but them through some weird loopholes of half-truths, anecdotal conjecture, and whatever lies they read on Stormfront.
Which is why I get SUPER skeptical of whatever comes out of a lolbertarian’s suckhole.
Like, IDGAF if you want UZIs, hookers, or to rot your brain getting high all day. But they also start losing me with AoC being 11 and not thinking DUI should be a crime.
So, cucking the police to where they say “Well gee golly gosh, he just doesn’t want to go to jail. I guess we’d better just leave and let the tow truck guy deal with it” is frankly pretty asinine.
Don’t expect other people to live up this whole idea of Americanism. Doesn’t work that way. Never has, never will. It smacks of Arfcommery.
The guy in that car was a low life. Low lifes need to be off the street either in a jail or in a cooler.
Wanting law and order doesn’t mean the police are automatically Totenkopf SS. If you want life like the 50s, understand that it was like that for a reason. The shitsticks got beaten or shot with no quarter given for their whining and Curbside Johnny Cochran spiel. See....that’s what makes me sick.
Nobody cites all these legal shit until their ass is in a sling and then they play Matlock. Where was this legal knowledge when it came time to renew your tags or pay your car insurance?
Remember in the late '60's, the college Libertarians were arm in arm with the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS/Weather Underground) spitting on US troops returning from Vietnam. A little known fact modern Libertarians either don't know or choose to ignore.
The armed maniac in the car will be the type of person that will be killed outright by other citizens when you don't have the police to rely on any longer. Here in New Mexico, there have already been incidents over the years where some loser on his 12th DUI runs his truck in the ditch, and gets popped in the head with a gun shot from a citizen following him. In the lack of any social order, it's the logical path.
Not arguing with OH58, just pondering on what would happen:
.
Somebody mentioned a Maglite or some other kind of baton/impact weapon. It's pretty tough to employ some kind of strikes within the tiny space of a car cabin, I doubt it would have made any difference. Once they lost their hold on him and he broke free to go back to get his hidden weapon, it's over.
No it’s not. Done it plenty of times. A good upward thrust under the jaw goes a long way. Bonus if they bite their tongue.....on Xbox.
No it’s not. Done it plenty of times. A good upward thrust under the jaw goes a long way. Bonus if they bite their tongue.....on Xbox.
Again, not arguing with you, just trying to get the info straight.
You've done it plenty of times as a law enforcement officer on duty? If so, is that a legal striking technique? I thought the LEO are restricted to only certain type of strikes, location, etc.
Remember in the late '60's, the college Libertarians were arm in arm with the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS/Weather Underground) spitting on US troops returning from Vietnam. A little known fact modern Libertarians either don't know or choose to ignore.
The armed maniac in the car will be the type of person that will be killed outright by other citizens when you don't have the police to rely on any longer. Here in New Mexico, there have already been incidents over the years where some loser on his 12th DUI runs his truck in the ditch, and gets popped in the head with a gun shot from a citizen following him. In the lack of any social order, it's the logical path.
I don’t remember that but I am aware of it, yes sir.
I mean I am all for Gadsden Flags and Snek Flags and all but I don’t think people really want actual anarchy because people would be killing each other left and right.
I mean, forming drunken posses seems fun at first and I wont say some people don’t have it coming.
That said, after a while it can get petty. I mean, people need their due process and day in court.
This old cat demonstrated how fast things can happen. If a fat old country boy can do it that quick, just imagine a guy half his age and only 2/3 his weight :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w5u32jFfXU
I don’t remember that but I am aware of it, yes sir.
I mean I am all for Gadsden Flags and Snek Flags and all but I don’t think people really want actual anarchy because people would be killing each other left and right.
I mean, forming drunken posses seems fun at first and I wont say some people don’t have it coming.
That said, after a while it can get petty. I mean, people need their due process and day in court.
This is basically where I’m at. If you didn’t believe it before, 2020 showed us that we are a nation of s**theads. Folks are gonna do whatever they think they can get away with.
POS can get cracked with hickory by a Sheriff or smoke checked by the Kenosha Kid. Matters none to me.
I don’t remember that but I am aware of it, yes sir.
I mean I am all for Gadsden Flags and Snek Flags and all but I don’t think people really want actual anarchy because people would be killing each other left and right.
I mean, forming drunken posses seems fun at first and I wont say some people don’t have it coming.
That said, after a while it can get petty. I mean, people need their due process and day in court.
I'm not advocating vigilante justice, but I live in a part of the world where if an emergency call on the Thrane Satellite phone is made to the Sheriff's Office, it will take 45 minutes to 1 hour for a responding officer to show up - in good weather. You learn from an early age that being self-sufficient is a way of life.
At the point said officers return to their patrol vehicle and let Mr. Tow Truck attempt to boot the car.
That's not what I wrote, but I appreciate you making the assumption to suit your argument.
Again, not arguing with you, just trying to get the info straight.
You've done it plenty of times as a law enforcement officer on duty? If so, is that a legal striking technique? I thought the LEO are restricted to only certain type of strikes, location, etc.
Actually in current training this is addressed as a “weapon of opportunity”. You can even stab someone if need be.
Obviously you can’t just run up to someone and beat their head in. But if you have exhausted every other recourse and it’s looking bad; then game on.
It’s the totality of circumstances that is the meter. I mean if you do not get the perp under control then you can get shot, dragged, or WORSE. I myself have been dragged and it was not fun.
All over literally nothing. Like, maybe it’s just me. But all the times I came close to getting killed it was over something cosmically minor like weed or a Child Support Warrant. The guy with a few keys of coke just want their phone call and either to flip on someone or just clam up until the lawyer comes.
I mean, you do what you have to. I won’t sit here and say “Oh yeah they teach flashlight tune ups all day in Forsyth”. I WILL say that it can get sketchy and sometimes you have to bring the pain if you don’t want to get killed or maimed.
I have rung bells for people grabbing at my gun, shoving something I didn’t know what it was in my face, trying to put a car in gear, trying to snatch up a baby when told they were under arrest( as an aside, there is indeed a certain demographic of males who want nothing to do with their kids all day long until the police show up and then they want to have a baby in their goddamned hands), and coming at me with what was revealed to be a tire iron.
So....let your conscience be your guide.
Don’t go thinking it’s like Quickdraw Mcgraw where you just go bashing someone’s head over a humbug.
I’m just saying it’s doable in a car cab if you know what you’re doing.
This old cat demonstrated how fast things can happen. If a fat old country boy can do it that quick, just imagine a guy half his age and only 2/3 his weight :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w5u32jFfXU
That’s a good video but I had to stop watching it.
I'm not advocating vigilante justice, but I live in a part of the world where if an emergency call on the Thrane Satellite phone is made to the Sheriff's Office, it will take 45 minutes to 1 hour for a responding officer to show up - in good weather. You learn from an early age that being self-sufficient is a way of life.
Oh no sir, I didn’t say you were. Just as a generality.
I don’t remember that but I am aware of it, yes sir.
I mean I am all for Gadsden Flags and Snek Flags and all but I don’t think people really want actual anarchy because people would be killing each other left and right.
I mean, forming drunken posses seems fun at first and I wont say some people don’t have it coming.
That said, after a while it can get petty. I mean, people need their due process and day in court.
Well that is the statist claimed scare tactic version of anarchy, then there is the version of anarchy(that scares statists) where if something is important enough to become law there are no exemptions.
Oh no sir, I didn’t say you were. Just as a generality.
I didn't think you were. Take this incident on a public street and move it to a citizen's front yard. Some undesirable has decided to take up residence in your front yard and refuses to leave. You call LE and they try to coax and cajole this critter into leaving. He refuses. Based on previous comments, the less confrontational approach would be to just let the undesirable remain and back off since the crimes are only trespassing and refusing a lawful order. Or they could escalate and in the ensuing violent encounter, the undesirable pulls a gun and shoots. The other alternative would be to let poor Mr. and Mrs. Citizen deal with the problem.
The absence of proactive LE is what allowed that St. Louis situation with the McCloskeys and their armed stand to take place.
Well that is the statist claimed scare tactic version of anarchy, then there is the version of anarchy(that scares statists) where if something is important enough to become law there are no exemptions.
I’m not a statist. I would love a harem, mail order full auto, and no taxes.
That said, you miss the boat I think. At one time we just had Ten Commandments and you see how well that worked out.
I mean we need some kind of structure here.
I’m not a statist. I would love a harem, mail order full auto, and no taxes.
That said, you miss the boat I think. At one time we just had Ten Commandments and you see how well that worked out.
I mean we need some kind of structure here.
Structure is great and the rule of law would provide that very effectively. When a law gets put on the books there should be no exemption for executives, legislators, judges, police, and so on. Since members of those groups want to get involved, they shouldn't want exemptions and, in fact, should want increased penalties when members of those classes violate those laws.
As it stands now, those protected classes have no interests in individual liberties since their anointed status grants them privileges far beyond any rights.
Threads like this are proof that email, texting, and forums are a shit way to communicate and I would venture most folks are closer in opinion then it seems at times.
Watching the video, we all knew how it would end because we read the title. Going into it, you're angry. This ****ing sucks. Some shit stain killed an officer. I hope he fries and rather quickly.
But I'm watching it a 2nd and 3rd time and that's where I wanted to ask why did it get that far, how often does this it get stupid like this, and what other options are there. Officers get hands on. Again, I think it sucks for all involved, but law enforcement is often very unattractive. But I have to question are there other options during interactions like this and so many of the other ones we're watching.
This guy was being a dick. As much as I wanted to bitch slap him, being a dick is a relatively minor offense. Is a beat down where this needs to go? Up until the taser shot, it's failure, and when it got physical, if you didn't know what was going to happen at the end, was there really anything there that warranted going hands on? I don't think that's an unfair question.
That's why I brought up the idea of calling the wrecker and stopping the conversation. He's being an asshat. Don't engage with asshats. Tell the guy we're done talking, call the tow truck. Supervise the tow truck hook up, and if the guy still won't cooperate/get out, have it booted instead. Tow truck driver goes away to wait for his next call and the officer write the guys the tickets/summons. Loser gets to walk home or call a friend. If at some point, the moron does get out and tries to intervene, well now we DO have something beyond a license and registration violation. Things may very well and most likely should get ugly at that point.
We just had a more recent video where a black family in a rideshare watched the father get proned out and beat in the street. He was the passenger in a vehicle with a broken tail light. Driver didn't have ID. Officer demanded the passenger show ID and get out of the car. Passenger questioned the officer, why he the passenger, was being involved. Guy got out and then we have his beat down to watch. Why did any of that have to get physical?
Good shoots are good shoots. Sometimes a beat down is the answer. Pain compliance is a very useful in an officers arsenal.
As much as I would like to go to bed knowing it was all justified, we all know that's not true, never was true, and never will be true. And because of that questions get asked.
Threads like this are proof that email, texting, and forums are a shit way to communicate and I would venture most folks are closer in opinion then it seems at times.
Watching the video, we all knew how it would end because we read the title. Going into it, you're angry. This ****ing sucks. Some shit stain killed an officer. I hope he fries and rather quickly.
But I'm watching it a 2nd and 3rd time and that's where I wanted to ask why did it get that far, how often does this it get stupid like this, and what other options are there. Officers get hands on. Again, I think it sucks for all involved, but law enforcement is often very unattractive. But I have to question are there other options during interactions like this and so many of the other ones we're watching.
This guy was being a dick. As much as I wanted to bitch slap him, being a dick is a relatively minor offense. Is a beat down where this needs to go? Up until the taser shot, it's failure, and when it got physical, if you didn't know what was going to happen at the end, was there really anything there that warranted going hands on? I don't think that's an unfair question.
That's why I brought up the idea of calling the wrecker and stopping the conversation. He's being an asshat. Don't engage with asshats. Tell the guy we're done talking, call the tow truck. Supervise the tow truck hook up, and if the guy still won't cooperate/get out, have it booted instead. Tow truck driver goes away to wait for his next call and the officer write the guys the tickets/summons. Loser gets to walk home or call a friend. If at some point, the moron does get out and tries to intervene, well now we DO have something beyond a license and registration violation. Things may very well and most likely should get ugly at that point.
We just had a more recent video where a black family in a rideshare watched the father get proned out and beat in the street. He was the passenger in a vehicle with a broken tail light. Driver didn't have ID. Officer demanded the passenger show ID and get out of the car. Passenger questioned the officer, why he the passenger, was being involved. Guy got out and then we have his beat down to watch. Why did any of that have to get physical?
Good shoots are good shoots. Sometimes a beat down is the answer. Pain compliance is a very useful in an officers arsenal.
As much as I would like to go to bed knowing it was all justified, we all know that's not true, never was true, and never will be true. And because of that questions get asked.
When you word it that way, whether or not it is intentional, you make it seem like the officers are at fault.
I mean, if he’s willing to gun down two armed men; why so you think he will magically go “Oh? Tow truck is here? Aw jeez, I guess I better get out so he can do his job then”.
What so you do if he decides to kill them over the boot?
That’s just unrealistic. You make it seem like State law is more of a suggestion than anything people are actually accountable to.
This is like me saying “Hey, your neighbors are blasting their music and having a good time. Why not just wear ear plugs so we don’t have any problems?”
This is like saying the Falklands were just some rocks and Pearl Harbor was a world away.
I mean, do you go through life that way?
https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/maglite-drop-ins-and-accessories. I haven't ordered the maglite upgrade yet but I do have the 6p led upgrade in an old surefire that started life as a incandescent rated for 100 lumens great for looking around a vehicle or large room without a lot of glare
Thanks for the link!
That’s just unrealistic. You make it seem like State law is more of a suggestion than anything people are actually accountable to.
For a handful of groups state laws generally aren't even much of a suggestion. If anyone really gives a crap about law being the rule for society then laws need to be universal including aiding and abetting instead of exemptions.
For a handful of groups state laws generally aren't even much of a suggestion. If anyone really gives a crap about law being the rule for society then laws need to be universal including aiding and abetting instead of exemptions.
Oh no. Please don’t try to make this seem like some Rosa Parks thing.....
Oh no. Please don’t try to make this seem like some Rosa Parks thing.....
Not sure where Rosa Parks came in to it, but feel free to explain why the unwashed masses should be "subject to" all laws while a handful of select groups shouldn't be?
Not sure where Rosa Parks came in to it, but feel free to explain why the unwashed masses should be "subject to" all laws while a handful of select groups shouldn't be?
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PepperyCautiousFlatfish-size_restricted.gif
Anyways...back to the tactics and lessons learned
Averageman
09-17-20, 20:18
As a Citizen, wow, I guess be a bit proactive and thank my Son for buying me that Sap.
As a Citizen, wow, I guess be a bit proactive and thank my Son for buying me that Sap.
I’m a citizen too. It’s just, every time this happens. Police encounter a piece of shit and it goes bad somehow and now everybody thinks the police are some super club where they can do whatever or something and then rationalize ways for the police to do patently stupid shit like “Aw just drive the drunk home”, “Aw just let the tow guy deal with it”, “so what if he’s carrying a gun and cocaine. That’s freedom”, “So what if he’s illegal? No human is illegal. I bet he’s a good roofer”.
I never got my secret club card. I get raped in taxes, I caught a couple speeding tickets my damn self, and I get routinely told “it’s between shit and syphilis”
The facts are:
Shitstick broke the law
Shitstick had a record
Shitstick refused to comply with reasonable commands
Shitstick fought police killing one
Shitstick didn’t seem to feel too bad about it.
I mean, it’s up there with me saying “just let them have the TV. You can buy another one” or “Well your daughter WAS wearing a pretty short skirt when she was dragged info them rape bushes”
It’s not the fvcking tag. It’s the fact that if he will plan, proceed, and prevail to kill over a fvcking ticket then what do you think he will do to anybody else?
We live in a world with streets. On those streets are men with guns. Some of them don’t care who you voted for, what god you pray to, or your thoughts on society. They just see you as a mark. And will ahoot you when your back is turned. Then there are those who, as a job, try to stop those men. And sometimes you don’t make it easy for them.
Do you know where honor is? It’s between heartbreak and hysteria.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-17-20, 20:56
Threads like this are proof that email, texting, and forums are a shit way to communicate and I would venture most folks are closer in opinion then it seems at times.
Watching the video, we all knew how it would end because we read the title. Going into it, you're angry. This ****ing sucks. Some shit stain killed an officer. I hope he fries and rather quickly.
But I'm watching it a 2nd and 3rd time and that's where I wanted to ask why did it get that far, how often does this it get stupid like this, and what other options are there. Officers get hands on. Again, I think it sucks for all involved, but law enforcement is often very unattractive. But I have to question are there other options during interactions like this and so many of the other ones we're watching.
This guy was being a dick. As much as I wanted to bitch slap him, being a dick is a relatively minor offense. Is a beat down where this needs to go? Up until the taser shot, it's failure, and when it got physical, if you didn't know what was going to happen at the end, was there really anything there that warranted going hands on? I don't think that's an unfair question.
That's why I brought up the idea of calling the wrecker and stopping the conversation. He's being an asshat. Don't engage with asshats. Tell the guy we're done talking, call the tow truck. Supervise the tow truck hook up, and if the guy still won't cooperate/get out, have it booted instead. Tow truck driver goes away to wait for his next call and the officer write the guys the tickets/summons. Loser gets to walk home or call a friend. If at some point, the moron does get out and tries to intervene, well now we DO have something beyond a license and registration violation. Things may very well and most likely should get ugly at that point.
We just had a more recent video where a black family in a rideshare watched the father get proned out and beat in the street. He was the passenger in a vehicle with a broken tail light. Driver didn't have ID. Officer demanded the passenger show ID and get out of the car. Passenger questioned the officer, why he the passenger, was being involved. Guy got out and then we have his beat down to watch. Why did any of that have to get physical?
Good shoots are good shoots. Sometimes a beat down is the answer. Pain compliance is a very useful in an officers arsenal.
As much as I would like to go to bed knowing it was all justified, we all know that's not true, never was true, and never will be true. And because of that questions get asked.
Can you link me to a tow company in Tulsa that will tow off a PD tow sheet a car that is still occupied by an uncooperative?
Can you send me a video of a safe way to boot a vehicle that is occupied by an uncooperative?
I’m a citizen too. It’s just, every time this happens. Police encounter a piece of shit and it goes bad somehow and now everybody thinks the police are some super club where they can do whatever or something and then rationalize ways for the police to do patently stupid shit like “Aw just drive the drunk home”, “Aw just let the tow guy deal with it”, “so what if he’s carrying a gun and cocaine. That’s freedom”, “So what if he’s illegal? No human is illegal. I bet he’s a good roofer”.
I never got my secret club card. I get raped in taxes, I caught a couple speeding tickets my damn self, and I get routinely told “it’s between shit and syphilis”
The facts are:
Shitstick broke the law
Shitstick had a record
Shitstick refused to comply with reasonable commands
Shitstick fought police killing one
Shitstick didn’t seem to feel too bad about it.
I mean, it’s up there with me saying “just let them have the TV. You can buy another one” or “Well your daughter WAS wearing a pretty short skirt when she was dragged info them rape bushes”
It’s not the fvcking tag. It’s the fact that if he will plan, proceed, and prevail to kill over a fvcking ticket then what do you think he will do to anybody else?
We live in a world with streets. On those streets are men with guns. Some of them don’t care who you voted for, what god you pray to, or your thoughts on society. They just see you as a mark. And will ahoot you when your back is turned. Then there are those who, as a job, try to stop those men. And sometimes you don’t make it easy for them.
Do you know where honor is? It’s between heartbreak and hysteria.
Somebody here needs to write a book.
grizzlyblake
09-18-20, 06:05
The only thing that has gone right about 2020 is FF returning to this forum.
The only thing that has gone right about 2020 is FF returning to this forum.
That's for sure. Always an interesting and thought provoking perspective....with a dose of caustic humor.
The only thing that has gone right about 2020 is FF returning to this forum.
That's for sure. Always an interesting and thought provoking perspective....with a dose of caustic humor.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-18-20, 07:44
I counted 5 times that the officers went hands-on with the perp to physically remove him from the vehicle but then disengaged. What's up with all the time outs?
Russian neck cranks are a thing and are absolutely miserable if you’re on the receiving end.
Also sidebar; but a lot of agencies put greater emphasis on training control and officer defensive tactics than actual fighting skills and techniques. Which is lame imo. Competent officers need to be able to do both. In practical application they are distinct skill sets.
Not every suspect resisting detainment or arrest warrants strikes to the face with bare fists or the application of impact weapons, it depends on the circumstances of course. That being said a person unwilling to vacate a vehicle is doing so for a reason and articulating why you punched them in the face repeatedly like Donkey Kong is not unreasonable.
Violence is just that, violent.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The only thing that has gone right about 2020 is FF returning to this forum.Absolutely.
joedirt199
09-18-20, 13:34
i tried pulling a drunk from a car once and it is not easy. Too many things they can rap themselves up in. It wasn't until the second officer showed up that we got him out and then we were in the driving lane running the risk of getting hit by a damn car. Same type of thing. Guy just didn't want to comply. Needless to say we were not grabbing him by the hands to come out.
Russian neck cranks are a thing and are absolutely miserable if you’re on the receiving end.
Also sidebar; but a lot of agencies put greater emphasis on training control and officer defensive tactics than actual fighting skills and techniques. Which is lame imo. Competent officers need to be able to do both. In practical application they are distinct skill sets.
Not every suspect resisting detainment or arrest warrants strikes to the face with bare fists or the application of impact weapons, it depends on the circumstances of course. That being said a person unwilling to vacate a vehicle is doing so for a reason and articulating why you punched them in the face repeatedly like Donkey Kong is not unreasonable.
Violence is just that, violent.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I assume due to lawyers convincing someone that opens the PD to liability?
joedirt199
09-18-20, 14:37
Doesn't look good on video punching to the face and throat. We had more on pain compliance and control of the hands in the academy. We had alot of ground fighting and boxing which was fun. Still retained most of it and has come in handy a few times. The boxing was so we could have a couple 3 one minute round fights with the other cadets. Told us to go 50-80%. When you got clocked, that percent range went out the door. Was pretty funny to watch.
Doesn't look good on video punching to the face and throat. More on pain compliance and control of the hands in the academy. We had alot of ground fighting and boxing which was fun. Still retained most of it and has come in handy a few times. The boxing was so we could have a couple 3 one minute round fights with the other cadets. Told us to go 50-80%. When you got clocked, that percent range went out the door. Was pretty funny to watch.
Do they still teach the brachial stun? Hit them hard with either the heal of the hand or forearm and it will definitely put them out of it for a few seconds- enough time to get them under control. They used to teach this at the academy (albeit almost 30 years ago) and we used to hit each other at about half speed and it would still ring my bell. The few times I used it on the street it worked like a charm.
I assume due to lawyers convincing someone that opens the PD to liability?
In part probably yes, but the case law governing use of force is pretty cut and dry about totality of circumstances, reasonableness, etc etc.
Part of it imo is also because a lot of defensive tactics, Officer response training, etc type instructors are wannabe BJJ or some other martial artist pro and treat it as an extension their craft. Obviously some guys are truly legit with respect to their skill set and having that competency available to you is absolutely a multiplier when brought to bare. Others I think tend to smudge the line between gaming and what actually goes down in a street fight.
It’s also because it’s generally simpler to teach folks to make distance and go to a tool but Sometimes it really is just easier to punch people in the face in order to end an altercation when the circumstances warrant it.
Not many people, LEOs included, are comfortable taking a fight to the ground be it due to training or what have you but imo most fights end up there so it’s where competency needs to be at its highest and officers need to comfortable in doing so.
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Doesn't look good on video punching to the face and throat. We had more on pain compliance and control of the hands in the academy. We had alot of ground fighting and boxing which was fun. Still retained most of it and has come in handy a few times. The boxing was so we could have a couple 3 one minute round fights with the other cadets. Told us to go 50-80%. When you got clocked, that percent range went out the door. Was pretty funny to watch.
Who gives a sh*t. The application of violence isn’t pretty even if applied in semi-professional context.
Boxing is fine in a training context to get trainees comfortable throwing punches and getting hit (endurance training as well) but I hope that framework wasn’t being carried over to actual interactions in the street because squaring up and exchanging punches with a perp is asinine.
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john armond
09-18-20, 16:41
[QUOTE=jpmuscle;2885291]Who gives a sh*t. The application of violence isn’t pretty even if applied in semi-professional context.
I actually had a girlfriend break up with me after an incident at her work where suspects were getting thrown around and slammed against walls and the ground until a couple troopers and myself could effectively break up a fight between two groups totaling about 10 people. After I was finished with the incident I went back to her work to finish the discussion we were having before the fight about where we were going for dinner. She broke it off without any explanation. About a year after all this went down I ran into her and asked her what happened. She told me it scared the shite out of her to see me go from nice and flirty with her to slamming bodies, then back to normal. Said it was like a light switch being turned on and off.
A Utah K9 officer was just charged with felony assault and the department’s use of K9s stopped after the officer had his dog bite the leg of a suspect who was told to “Get on the ground, All the way down” then was warned he was going to be bit. The suspect got on his knees and told the PO “I’m on the ground” in between the time he was ordered all the way down, multiple times, an warned he was going to get bit. I think the incident stemmed from a domestic and the suspect was stalking the DV victim after she took out a restraining order.
Violence never looks pretty...that’s why it’s called violence and not beauty. Now no more K9s for this department. Of course the video I watched clearly stated the races of the PO & suspect.
So no biting, striking, OC, CS, taser, or guns. Might as well tell cops if the suspect is defiant in any way...just let them go, no matter what they are doing. That seems to be what these activist groups want.
Of course, then you have the Minneapolis city council that just a month or two ago voted to completely ABOLISH its PD, then started taking their funding away. I believe it was a unanimous vote. Over 100 officers left the department since the vote. Now THE SAME city council just held a meeting demanding answers from the PD Chief as to why the murder and violent (and probably all others) crime rates have skyrocketed! You can’t make up this stupidity.
joedirt199
09-18-20, 17:02
Do they still teach the brachial stun? Hit them hard with either the heal of the hand or forearm and it will definitely put them out of it for a few seconds- enough time to get them under control. They used to teach this at the academy (albeit almost 30 years ago) and we used to hit each other at about half speed and it would still ring my bell. The few times I used it on the street it worked like a charm.
Not much stun hits 20 years ago when I went through. More hand and arm, baton, control techniques. Pain and manipulation as to moving people along with certain holds and take down moves that could rip a shoulder pretty nicely.
[QUOTE=jpmuscle;2885291]Who gives a sh*t. The application of violence isn’t pretty even if applied in semi-professional context.
I actually had a girlfriend break up with me after an incident at her work where suspects were getting thrown around and slammed against walls and the ground until a couple troopers and myself could effectively break up a fight between two groups totaling about 10 people. After I was finished with the incident I went back to her work to finish the discussion we were having before the fight about where we were going for dinner. She broke it off without any explanation. About a year after all this went down I ran into her and asked her what happened. She told me it scared the shite out of her to see me go from nice and flirty with her to slamming bodies, then back to normal. Said it was like a light switch being turned on and off.
A Utah K9 officer was just charged with felony assault and the department’s use of K9s stopped after the officer had his dog bite the leg of a suspect who was told to “Get on the ground, All the way down” then was warned he was going to be bit. The suspect got on his knees and told the PO “I’m on the ground” in between the time he was ordered all the way down, multiple times, an warned he was going to get bit. I think the incident stemmed from a domestic and the suspect was stalking the DV victim after she took out a restraining order.
Violence never looks pretty...that’s why it’s called violence and not beauty. Now no more K9s for this department. Of course the video I watched clearly stated the races of the PO & suspect.
So no biting, striking, OC, CS, taser, or guns. Might as well tell cops if the suspect is defiant in any way...just let them go, no matter what they are doing. That seems to be what these activist groups want.
Of course, then you have the Minneapolis city council that just a month or two ago voted to completely ABOLISH its PD, then started taking their funding away. I believe it was a unanimous vote. Over 100 officers left the department since the vote. Now THE SAME city council just held a meeting demanding answers from the PD Chief as to why the murder and violent (and probably all others) crime rates have skyrocketed! You can’t make up this stupidity.
Sounds like you dodged a failed relationship on that one
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Not much stun hits 20 years ago when I went through. More hand and arm, baton, control techniques. Pain and manipulation as to moving people along with certain holds and take down moves that could rip a shoulder pretty nicely.
We had all that too (“pain compliance” was the term used) including strikes to stun. The straight arm bar takedown was a technique I became very proficient at and used many times while on patrol.
john armond
09-18-20, 17:16
The latest academy I went through was a joke. During the “attack” I performed basically a straight arm bar takedown. The instructor wanted to know what the hell I was doing. I said I had control of him and in the real world would place him in cuffs...if they actually let us use them in the class, which they didn’t, I would have put them on then. The instructor told me he didn’t want to see me do that again, and my response should have been to knock the “suspect” down then get out of there until more personnel could get there to do the cuffing. I questioned the instructor as to why I should relinquish control of a combative suspect. He told me what I was doing wasn’t what was being taught. Now this was a technique I learned in BLET in 1997 and had used numerous times on the street, and it worked.
The next time I was given the same attacker scenario I instinctively did the same move. The instructor then yelled at me that if I did it one more time I would be kicked out of the class and if I did it during the DT “exam” portion I would fail and be sent home.
The response the DT instructor was looking for was jokingly referred to as the “Nike Response” by the class.
john armond
09-18-20, 17:39
Sounds like you dodged a failed relationship on that one
:dance3:
titsonritz
09-19-20, 21:55
I actually had a girlfriend break up with me after an incident at her work where suspects were getting thrown around and slammed against walls and the ground until a couple troopers and myself could effectively break up a fight between two groups totaling about 10 people. After I was finished with the incident I went back to her work to finish the discussion we were having before the fight about where we were going for dinner. She broke it off without any explanation. About a year after all this went down I ran into her and asked her what happened. She told me it scared the shite out of her to see me go from nice and flirty with her to slamming bodies, then back to normal. Said it was like a light switch being turned on and off.
A Utah K9 officer was just charged with felony assault and the department’s use of K9s stopped after the officer had his dog bite the leg of a suspect who was told to “Get on the ground, All the way down” then was warned he was going to be bit. The suspect got on his knees and told the PO “I’m on the ground” in between the time he was ordered all the way down, multiple times, an warned he was going to get bit. I think the incident stemmed from a domestic and the suspect was stalking the DV victim after she took out a restraining order.
Violence never looks pretty...that’s why it’s called violence and not beauty. Now no more K9s for this department. Of course the video I watched clearly stated the races of the PO & suspect.
So no biting, striking, OC, CS, taser, or guns. Might as well tell cops if the suspect is defiant in any way...just let them go, no matter what they are doing. That seems to be what these activist groups want.
Of course, then you have the Minneapolis city council that just a month or two ago voted to completely ABOLISH its PD, then started taking their funding away. I believe it was a unanimous vote. Over 100 officers left the department since the vote. Now THE SAME city council just held a meeting demanding answers from the PD Chief as to why the murder and violent (and probably all others) crime rates have skyrocketed! You can’t make up this stupidity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvJD5QB-JK0
The latest academy I went through was a joke. During the “attack” I performed basically a straight arm bar takedown. The instructor wanted to know what the hell I was doing. I said I had control of him and in the real world would place him in cuffs...if they actually let us use them in the class, which they didn’t, I would have put them on then. The instructor told me he didn’t want to see me do that again, and my response should have been to knock the “suspect” down then get out of there until more personnel could get there to do the cuffing. I questioned the instructor as to why I should relinquish control of a combative suspect. He told me what I was doing wasn’t what was being taught. Now this was a technique I learned in BLET in 1997 and had used numerous times on the street, and it worked.
The next time I was given the same attacker scenario I instinctively did the same move. The instructor then yelled at me that if I did it one more time I would be kicked out of the class and if I did it during the DT “exam” portion I would fail and be sent home.
The response the DT instructor was looking for was jokingly referred to as the “Nike Response” by the class.
I just threw up in my mouth.
Please, PLEASE tell me that this was a Women's Own the Night Rape Avoidance Academy, hell, a Mall Cop Academy....
Not an academy for Lawmen.
Please.
john armond
09-20-20, 09:33
I just threw up in my mouth.
Please, PLEASE tell me that this was a Women's Own the Night Rape Avoidance Academy, hell, a Mall Cop Academy....
Not an academy for Lawmen.
Please.
Nope. An actual "Federal Law Enforcement" academy. I am using quotes because after working on the street for so long, I don't consider what I do now to actually be law enforcement. My credentials say "Law Enforcement Officer" on them, I get the law enforcement salary and retirement, but I am mostly doing inspections now. At least half to 3/4 of the people I work with don't understand what actual law enforcement is. Of the 1/4 that do, I'm not sure how many I believe would make it as cops.
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