View Full Version : Offset RDS as primary, FSB secondary?
Referencing statements from recent threads.
Hell yes. An AR with no fixed FSB is not a serious fighting gun to me.
I’m not worried about my red dot failing per se, but there've been several times here in the hot Texas humidity where I’ve deployed my rifle from my nice a/c cooled Tahoe only to find my optic is completely fogged up and unusable. At the point pulling it off and switching to irons is the only way to go. Aside from that I can’t thing of too many other reasons.
It's not a new idea, many have run offset RDS. But most would never consider flipping the roles between the offset and the magnified, and thus most offset mounts were designed, naturally, as a "back-up" solution... tucking away the offset RDS and making it extremely hard to use.
There are two reasons for it. First, target acquisition with a offset red dot is fast, if not faster, than a RDS at 12 o'clock. Try this - hold up your fist in front of your chest like you are about ready to punch someone. Now look at your fist. If you were holding a stick, would that stick be pointing straight up? No... because your elbow/wrist doesn't naturally bend that way. Bringing your gun up from low-ready is the same way; traditionally you have to lift the gun AND rotate it so your primary optic, at 12 o'clock, lines up with your eye. With offset red dot, you only have to bring the gun up without rotating it much (if at all), and the red dot (provided it's setup at the right height) would line up naturally against your eye.
The second reason, is that I would prefer a wide-range of magnification outside of the reflex sight, and nobody makes a "variable" flip-to-side magnifier. So for me to have both, I have to rely on LPVO and they don't make offset mounts for LPVO... :D
Placing a red dot sight in-line with FSB irons partially occludes the view through the RDS and leaves the view of the irons vulnerable to fogging. For this combination (RDS & FSB iron sights) would it be better to place the RDS on an offset mount? I haven't used offset sights yet but if as Valhalla wrote it "is [as] fast, if not faster, than a RDS at 12 o'clock" it seems appealing. Would it cause problems for barricade shooting, urban prone, etc.? Are there solutions for these apart from reverting to the iron sights?
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-19-20, 17:10
Referencing statements from recent threads.
Placing a red dot sight in-line with FSB irons partially occludes the view through the RDS and leaves the view of the irons vulnerable to fogging. For this combination (RDS & FSB iron sights) would it be better to place the RDS on an offset mount? I haven't used offset sights yet but if as Valhalla wrote it "is [as] fast, if not faster, than a RDS at 12 o'clock" it seems appealing. Would it cause problems for barricade shooting, urban prone, etc.? Are there solutions for these apart from reverting to the iron sights?
There's a reason Valhalla is the only guy saying an offset RDS is as fast if not faster. It's because most find the opposite to be true.
The FSB partially blocking the view through a red dot is really a non issue. There is plenty of usable sight window there with the FSB present.
There's a reason Valhalla is the only guy saying an offset RDS is as fast if not faster. It's because most find the opposite to be true.
Do you believe that is due to familiarity, or ergonomics?
vicious_cb
09-19-20, 17:26
I dont think its fast(er) to have an offset RDS, you can be just as fast with practice but you would need to get used to using an offset sight when switching shoulders.
Not to mention it would completely mess with my concept from aiming "mag side high" when rolling the gun.
Basically your concept would needlessly complicate things for what is essentially an emergency scenario that is unlikely to happen in the first place. Im a firm believer in optimizing your set up for the 99% of situations and having a reasonable plan for the 1% of things going sideways.
lordmorgul
09-20-20, 17:38
Offset Irons is a better plan. Yes, offset works fine if practiced but it’s not a better solution. It takes more practice to ensure the sight is over bore (no cant) for longer shots.
Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!
I don't see the case for offset RDS as primary. Definitely open to offset irons and thinking about it for once special case: 2 rifles that have DMR-type magnification (2-10x, 2.5-20x), so they need something for backup and to cover 1x cases. Given the backup role, I like the idea of BUIS there rather than another sight that has a lens that can fog, can run out of battery, etc.
On RDS-equipped rifles I have one of each: (a) FSB front and fixed LMT rail-mounted rear plus lower 1/3 Aimpoint on a QD, and (b) inline folded BUIS with lower 1/3 Aimpoint on a QD, where I'll 'rip and flip' if needed. Works for me, has worked for a lot of BTDT guys, no plans to change.
militarymoron
09-21-20, 17:56
I have a couple of scoped uppers set up with offset mini RDS. I thought that it'd be as quick as a standard set up (not offset) but didn't find it to be the case for me. It might be familiarity, but also found that a canted rifle stock wasn't in the optimal position on the shoulder. I did just fine with it, but wouldn't want my primary optic canted. Also, if you have a muzzle comp or brake; even an A2 comp, it can move the muzzle in an unwanted direction.
As for whether the wrist is in a more natural position or not when the rifle is canted, I don't know. The wrist follows the elbow, so if the elbow is tucked in (no chicken wing), the hand is more vertical. Either way, I'm pretty used to holding a glass or mug vertically in front of my chest when I drink, which isn't too far off from gripping the rifle's pistol grip. I mean, go to any BBQ or bar, and you'll see folk with beer bottles held vertically in the 'low ready' position. We've trained like this ever since we could hold a cup! :D
titsonritz
09-21-20, 18:42
Worth watching on the subject of canting your rifle...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iarDzQ848Zg
There's a reason Valhalla is the only guy saying an offset RDS is as fast if not faster. It's because most find the opposite to be true.
The FSB partially blocking the view through a red dot is really a non issue. There is plenty of usable sight window there with the FSB present.
Do you believe that is due to familiarity, or ergonomics?
It’s probably because Valhalla used to make airsoft stuff.
Worth watching on the subject of canting your rifle...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iarDzQ848Zg
Great video. I really enjoy listening to Pressburg. Need to take some of his classes.
Dr. Bullseye
09-23-20, 21:34
When I used a RDS and co-witnessed it, I lost my cheek weld. Then I got a riser to make up for that. One day I went back to just irons without the riser and it was not only just as fast, it was more accurate. The RDS is a crutch but when people dump $700-900.00 on a crutch, they psychologically justify it as an improvement. If you practice with the irons, it is just as fast You don't need no stinkin' crutch.
Worth watching on the subject of canting your rifle...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iarDzQ848Zg
Sage Dynamics did a good video on that as well, though I don't think he showed the groups. Maybe, I don't remember that part.
He had a great tip for zeroing your offset. If you have a 45^ mount that keeps your optic inline with the bore when canted, if you have 45^ m-lok slots on your handguard you can put a bipod on the opposite angle of your red dot to zero it. Keeping it nice and level.
Pretty neat trick I thought.
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I dont think its fast(er) to have an offset RDS, you can be just as fast with practice but you would need to get used to using an offset sight when switching shoulders.
Not to mention it would completely mess with my concept from aiming "mag side high" when rolling the gun.
Basically your concept would needlessly complicate things for what is essentially an emergency scenario that is unlikely to happen in the first place. Im a firm believer in optimizing your set up for the 99% of situations and having a reasonable plan for the 1% of things going sideways.
Pretty much this ^^
And I don't find the FSB to be an issue at all on any of my RDS guns. You can hold your head a little high and easily get good view. I definitely do this on closer range, faster shooting.
When I used a RDS and co-witnessed it, I lost my cheek weld. Then I got a riser to make up for that. One day I went back to just irons without the riser and it was not only just as fast, it was more accurate. The RDS is a crutch but when people dump $700-900.00 on a crutch, they psychologically justify it as an improvement. If you practice with the irons, it is just as fast You don't need no stinkin' crutch.
Nope.
When I used a RDS and co-witnessed it, I lost my cheek weld. Then I got a riser to make up for that. One day I went back to just irons without the riser and it was not only just as fast, it was more accurate.
Please leave red dot vs iron sights for another thread. I am trying to follow your progression here; if the co-witnessed RDS was too low without a riser then the iron sights at the same height are also too low. What changed?
Please leave red dot vs iron sights for another thread. I am trying to follow your progression here; if the co-witnessed RDS was too low without a riser then the iron sights at the same height are also too low. What changed?If I'm not mistaken I believe he means lower 1/3rd cowitness. I'd assume due to his facial structure he doesn't get a solid cheek weld with the slightly higher optic but does with irons.
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ViniVidivici
09-26-20, 16:28
When I used a RDS and co-witnessed it, I lost my cheek weld. Then I got a riser to make up for that. One day I went back to just irons without the riser and it was not only just as fast, it was more accurate. The RDS is a crutch but when people dump $700-900.00 on a crutch, they psychologically justify it as an improvement. If you practice with the irons, it is just as fast You don't need no stinkin' crutch.
HA! Okay, I guess. That makes no sense to me.
RDS is no crutch, it's a game changer. Low light, on the move, rapid transitions between targets, etc. Good accuracy with both eyes open is an advantage.
Welcome to the 21st century.
Referencing statements from recent threads.
Placing a red dot sight in-line with FSB irons partially occludes the view through the RDS and leaves the view of the irons vulnerable to fogging. For this combination (RDS & FSB iron sights) would it be better to place the RDS on an offset mount? I haven't used offset sights yet but if as Valhalla wrote it "is [as] fast, if not faster, than a RDS at 12 o'clock" it seems appealing. Would it cause problems for barricade shooting, urban prone, etc.? Are there solutions for these apart from reverting to the iron sights?
Partially occluding the RDS doesn't matter. As long as you have two good eyes and are shooting the red dot with both eyes focused on the target like you should, the irons don't get in the way. The size of the window of the red dot doesn't matter either. You can even shoot with the front cap on the red dot and make hits. Look up "occluded eye gunsite" I have always had standing front and rear irons in line with my red dot, they are in a different plane of focus and don't get in the way. I sometimes see these threads about the size of the window and how it occludes your view, that's all bull, people who make those threads aren't shooting a red dot the right way. The exception is if ypu have limited vision, for example my dad's eyes cannot work together, so in that case they might have a point. But with two good eyes and the right sighting technique, both your eyes open and focused on the target, your brain fuses the two images together, and irons, viewing window sizes, even a front cap on the red dot, don't matter.
Defaultmp3
10-01-20, 08:43
Partially occluding the RDS doesn't matter. As long as you have two good eyes and are shooting the red dot with both eyes focused on the target like you should, the irons don't get in the way. The size of the window of the red dot doesn't matter either. You can even shoot with the front cap on the red dot and make hits. Look up "occluded eye gunsite" I have always had standing front and rear irons in line with my red dot, they are in a different plane of focus and don't get in the way. I sometimes see these threads about the size of the window and how it occludes your view, that's all bull, people who make those threads aren't shooting a red dot the right way. The exception is if ypu have limited vision, for example my dad's eyes cannot work together, so in that case they might have a point. But with two good eyes and the right sighting technique, both your eyes open and focused on the target, your brain fuses the two images together, and irons, viewing window sizes, even a front cap on the red dot, don't matter.https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?34549-The-Effects-of-Phoria-When-Using-the-ACOG-as-an-Occluded-Eye-Gunsight
For some folks, occluded eye sights can work well. For others, not so much, despite having seemingly healthy eyes.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?34549-The-Effects-of-Phoria-When-Using-the-ACOG-as-an-Occluded-Eye-Gunsight
For some folks, occluded eye sights can work well. For others, not so much, despite having seemingly healthy eyes.
Thank you. I did not know the term phoria but I experience this effect strongly so occlusion does matter in my case.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-02-20, 10:52
When I used a RDS and co-witnessed it, I lost my cheek weld. Then I got a riser to make up for that. One day I went back to just irons without the riser and it was not only just as fast, it was more accurate. The RDS is a crutch but when people dump $700-900.00 on a crutch, they psychologically justify it as an improvement. If you practice with the irons, it is just as fast You don't need no stinkin' crutch.
Congratulations. You've posted the dumbest thing I've read on M4C, and you've posted it as if your totally debunked opinion is fact.
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-02-20, 12:49
Congratulations. You've posted the dumbest thing I've read on M4C, and you've posted it as if your totally debunked opinion is fact.
Look up his posts about Ultradyne sights.
When I used a RDS and co-witnessed it, I lost my cheek weld. Then I got a riser to make up for that. One day I went back to just irons without the riser and it was not only just as fast, it was more accurate. The RDS is a crutch but when people dump $700-900.00 on a crutch, they psychologically justify it as an improvement. If you practice with the irons, it is just as fast You don't need no stinkin' crutch.
Trollin', trollin', trollin'... (to the theme from "Rawhide"...)
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