View Full Version : Challenger: Final Flight on Netflix...
A lot of this forum remembers watching it live, probably in school when they were younger. It was out 9-11 moment before 9-11 happened.
It's one of those things you remember so vividly, that you really didn't want to see the footage again. Time doesn't heal all wounds and I wasn't sure I wanted to watch a 4 part documentary but I was able and it was pretty comprehensive.
Happened at a time when "truthers" didn't exist so there weren't any "Reagan had to destroy proof of alien contact" nonsense stories, it was simply a national tragedy. I'm sure somewhere there were small groups of misguided retards who cheered the event for some kind of social / political reasons but the media didn't give them any face time.
Investigative journalists did go after the cover up story, but in this case one actually existed and even though NASA exercised gross negligence in the form of hubris, it was simply a matter of getting the truth out regarding a known engineering defect that took second consideration to launches on schedule the the PR motivation of "put a school teacher into space."
There are of course many hard to watch moments, guys who tried to do the right thing but were overruled by committee and the realization that it was a completely preventable tragedy. But if you have any interest in the Challenger event or the space shuttle program it is definitely worth the time.
Learned some things that I didn't know and more importantly got to see the people side of things.
I remember clearly as we always watched the shuttle launches in school, another point of long lost American pride. We were watching when it blew up and the classroom went so quiet you could hear a pin drop. Everyone was shocked and upset.
I was in my Jr History class & it was almost like they were becoming boring to everyone else but me...I was fascinated with the program. Anyway, most all the class was goofing off, I let out an 'Oh Shit' & Mr Walters wasn't able to see the TV & thought I was goofing off myself as I was known to do. Then silence.
I saw a doc where the only person to not sign off on the flight was the actual mfg of the seals that blew & he warned them not to launch in the temps they were seeing that week...said it was the best decision of his entire life as you could imagine.
There was a second space race of sorts in those days. I remember being a kid and seeing it blow. Nothing you could do.
Columbia’s doomed re-entry was the final nail for America’s Space faring status as we knew it.
I firmly believe that had we pushed through it and not wasted our money on project homes or foreign aid; we’d be on Mars by now with something to show for it.
That said, even as a kid, Reagan’s speech was awesome. I even remember the Punky Brewster episode.
Diamondback
09-21-20, 17:54
There was a second space race of sorts in those days. I remember being a kid and seeing it blow. Nothing you could do.
Columbia’s doomed re-entry was the final nail for America’s Space faring status as we knew it.
I firmly believe that had we pushed through it and not wasted our money on project homes or foreign aid; we’d be on Mars by now with something to show for it.
That said, even as a kid, Reagan’s speech was awesome. I even remember the Punky Brewster episode.
Columbia was another Institutional Negligence, and frankly the Shuttle program was buggered from the minute they chose to put a corner-cutting proof-of-concept vehicle with next to no safety margin into regular service. The concept was good, but we ouldn't have lost fourteen good men and women if they'd done the proper engineering work and added the planned flyback jet engines and other measures before building the production vehicles.
This is the same regret the previous generation had when that criminal waste of viable organs Proxmire spiked Apollo so he could loot NASA's budget to turn into handouts for his buddies. Gee, I wonder what other D-bag shitstain recently that sounds like?
"Obviously A Major Malfunction".
Words forever etched in my memory.
A lot of today's top safety programs came straight from that event, risk management, Swiss cheese models, all of that.
I went to a lecture given by a famed physicist who was on the investigation panel, his last name was Feynman, He talked about the investigation from beginning to end, we were captivated.
Happened at a time when "truthers" didn't exist so there weren't any "Reagan had to destroy proof of alien contact" nonsense stories, it was simply a national tragedy. I'm sure somewhere there were small groups of misguided retards who cheered the event for some kind of social / political reasons but the media didn't give them any face time.
Going to go out on a limb and say if they had used the event to pass a law on 15 March 1986 indicating the way to keep it from happening again was to vastly increase .gov reach/more control of citizens there would have been plenty of people doubting the claimed good intentions.
There was a second space race of sorts in those days. I remember being a kid and seeing it blow. Nothing you could do.
Columbia’s doomed re-entry was the final nail for America’s Space faring status as we knew it.
I firmly believe that had we pushed through it and not wasted our money on project homes or foreign aid; we’d be on Mars by now with something to show for it.
That said, even as a kid, Reagan’s speech was awesome. I even remember the Punky Brewster episode.
I remember standing in my front yard and being able to see the remnants of Columbia. When I learned foam tiles were the cause I began to wonder how they imagined any of these people might live on any shuttle mission.
A lot of today's top safety programs came straight from that event, risk management, Swiss cheese models, all of that.
I went to a lecture given by a famed physicist who was on the investigation panel, his last name was Feynman, He talked about the investigation from beginning to end, we were captivated.
If you enjoy Feynman, you want to see this series. Reagan initially wanted to try and maintain the image and integrity of NASA's image, Feynman was key to making sure that didn't happen.
"Obviously A Major Malfunction".
Words forever etched in my memory.
Understatement of the 80s.
If you enjoy Feynman, you want to see this series. Reagan initially wanted to try and maintain the image and integrity of NASA's image, Feynman was key to making sure that didn't happen.
My wife's best friend's dad, now deceased, had a PhD in physics and retired as the radiation and nuclear safety director of WVU. He and Feynman had studied together or rubbed elbows at some point; they had known each other. I found this out years after I sat in that lecture. Before he died, Dr. Douglass and I talked about Feynman (he had given me a book entitled "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!"), said that not only just a really nice guy, he was very tenacious about getting to the truth in science. I look forward to seeing this show.
I sat down and watched it a few nights ago and found it well done. I was born a short while after it happened so I have no frame of reference about it.
It seemed a bit cherry picked and sensationalized though, at-least based on my readings on the subject over the years. Certainly it was politically at the time. But characterizing time period design deficiencies, bureaucratic bumbling, and just general government stupidity with intentional efforts to recklessly, unnecessarily, put the lives of volunteer astronauts at risk seemed contrived. A tragedy to be certain but still.
Everything NASA and any other spacefaring endeavor has ever done has been based risk analysis and like it or not strapping humans atop millions of pounds of explosives in order to reach escape velocity and propel them into the cosmos is a serious and dangerous endeavor no matter what.
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Five_Point_Five_Six
09-22-20, 12:59
It certainly brought back memories. I was in first grade. I remember standing in front of the tv watching it live, with my coat and backpack on ready to make the five minute walk to school after it was over. My Mom was in the kitchen and I remember telling her something didn't look right. My teacher was crying when I got to school.
Watched it last night and enjoyed it, always been interested in the 80’s and space shuttle program. Anybody remember the movie space camp?
I was only 3 when challenger happened, what is most sad is that the same toxic culture allowed Columbia to happen as well.
What’s really terrifying is that the crew area was mostly intact and some of the emergency breathing packs had been activated....horrifying experience.
It was a cold day, my senior year in college. As I walked into the "student center" (the central building on campus that housed a cafeteria, small movie theater, bowling alley and video arcade, post office, music room and of course TV lounge, the place was abuzz with lots of nervous energy, students were visibly upset and lots of chatter. I thought what was going on? it had to be something in the national or even international news. Was there another assassination attempt on Reagan? did somebody attack somebody and we're going to war? I squeezed my way into the TV lounge which was packed more than usual. The TV were on and a live broadcast were talking about the Challenger disaster, replaying over and over the explosion.
I catch stories of the disaster throughout the years, documentaries, etc. I can't watch another one, it was too sad and tragic. I'll pass.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-22-20, 14:36
I was in second grade and was was really into NASA and space at the time. I had even written them asking if they took weapons in space "just in case". Their response came in the mail if I remember right sometime after the explosion. Watching it on TV and then getting their response had a large impact on me.
I sat down and watched it a few nights ago and found it well done. I was born a short while after it happened so I have no frame of reference about it.
It seemed a bit cherry picked and sensationalized though, at-least based on my readings on the subject over the years. Certainly it was politically at the time. But characterizing time period design deficiencies, bureaucratic bumbling, and just general government stupidity with intentional efforts to recklessly, unnecessarily, put the lives of volunteer astronauts at risk seemed contrived. A tragedy to be certain but still.
Everything NASA and any other spacefaring endeavor has ever done has been based risk analysis and like it or not strapping humans atop millions of pounds of explosives in order to reach escape velocity and propel them into the cosmos is a serious and dangerous endeavor no matter what.
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While your last statement is certainly a valid one, and in many ways a philosophy NASA lives by, there very much was a "it's been working so don't fix it" mindset that was also in place.
Space flight is one of the most dangerous things a human can participate in, but that doesn't mean documented design flaws are something to be accepted. It's why we don't roll SWAT teams out with Olympic Arms "plinker" rifles, it's already dangerous enough.
There also wasn't much of a political element to it, other than Reagan initially trying to not have NASA thrown under the bus, it was a NASA economic mindset that put promotion of a Space Bus concept ahead of reasonable safety concerns.
Having watched it happen in high school and then growing up in Florida where a lot of people had a lot of inside knowledge of events I think it was fairly well balanced. Everyone involved got to explain in detail what they did and why they did it.
Watched it last night and enjoyed it, always been interested in the 80’s and space shuttle program. Anybody remember the movie space camp?
I was only 3 when challenger happened, what is most sad is that the same toxic culture allowed Columbia to happen as well.
What’s really terrifying is that the crew area was mostly intact and some of the emergency breathing packs had been activated....horrifying experience.
Space Camp with Kelly Preston, of course I've seen it. But that is another completely different discussion, RIP Kelly btw for those who didn't know. She died this year in July after an ongoing battle with breast cancer.
Worst thing I heard about the crew compartment was that several might have survived IF some kind of parachute system existed. I have even heard that some of them were thrown free of the shuttle and actually died from the fall.
Diamondback
09-22-20, 18:00
Space Camp with Kelly Preston, of course I've seen it. But that is another completely different discussion, RIP Kelly btw for those who didn't know. She died this year in July after an ongoing battle with breast cancer.
Worst thing I heard about the crew compartment was that several might have survived IF some kind of parachute system existed. I have even heard that some of them were thrown free of the shuttle and actually died from the fall.
The pilots had ejection seats, but everybody else was on their own. It says something about those two men that they HAD a way out but refused to leave their crewmates behind.
A rather perplexing design decision from the worst of British practice, "pilots get bangseats but everyone else has to jump and hope for the best." Personally, if it was up to me I wouldn't allow any platform to be combat or space crew-rated unless it has enough Zero-Zero seats for everybody...
Grand58742
09-22-20, 18:11
The pilots had ejection seats, but everybody else was on their own. It says something about those two men that they HAD a way out but refused to leave their crewmates behind.
A rather perplexing design decision from the worst of British practice, "pilots get bangseats but everyone else has to jump and hope for the best." Personally, if it was up to me I wouldn't allow any platform to be combat or space crew-rated unless it has enough Zero-Zero seats for everybody...
Only Enterprise and Columbia had ejection seats and they weren't used after the first four missions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_abort_modes#Ejection_seat
Only Enterprise and Columbia had ejection seats and they weren't used after the first four missions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_abort_modes#Ejection_seat
This made me think of one of my ROTC instructors in college that was a CH53 pilot who was involved in the early testing and development of the V22 Osprey. He said the fixed wing pilots involved wanted ejection seats while the rotary wing pilots were like “WTH? You got 27 Marines in the back and you are going to eject?”.
The pilots had ejection seats, but everybody else was on their own. It says something about those two men that they HAD a way out but refused to leave their crewmates behind.
A rather perplexing design decision from the worst of British practice, "pilots get bangseats but everyone else has to jump and hope for the best." Personally, if it was up to me I wouldn't allow any platform to be combat or space crew-rated unless it has enough Zero-Zero seats for everybody...
In a perfect world, the crew compartment would be designed as an independent life raft / escape vehicle. Not sure what that would cost, but I think it would have been money well spent.
Diamondback
09-22-20, 19:26
In a perfect world, the crew compartment would be designed as an independent life raft / escape vehicle. Not sure what that would cost, but I think it would have been money well spent.
The original design had two jet engines so you could punch the Shuttle off the stack for a "flyback abort." Guess what was the first thing cut for cost?
But "ah, they all volunteered, they all know the risks and it's a dangerous business..."
The original design had two jet engines so you could punch the Shuttle off the stack for a "flyback abort." Guess what was the first thing cut for cost?
But "ah, they all volunteered, they all know the risks and it's a dangerous business..."
Yeah that is some Arkansas economics right there.
Cost of shuttle with safety features against cost of shuttle program being scrapped because of Challenger / Columbia.
If your stated goal is a space vehicle that makes space travel so safe passengers need not be astronauts who have a 20 year career as test pilots, then you better actually make something like a Space Bus. Because if you say that is what you have and then examples prove otherwise, then you really don't have anything.
And that is what we ended up with after the second shuttle fiasco to the point where we had to hitch a ride with the Russians.
If we can make a plane like the X-15 which can achieve sub orbital space flight (in 1963 btw) then there is no reason we shouldn't be capable of making a larger payload vehicle capable of the same 50 years after the fact.
Diamondback
09-22-20, 21:26
Yeah that is some Arkansas economics right there.
Cost of shuttle with safety features against cost of shuttle program being scrapped because of Challenger / Columbia.
If your stated goal is a space vehicle that makes space travel so safe passengers need not be astronauts who have a 20 year career as test pilots, then you better actually make something like a Space Bus. Because if you say that is what you have and then examples prove otherwise, then you really don't have anything.
And that is what we ended up with after the second shuttle fiasco to the point where we had to hitch a ride with the Russians.
If we can make a plane like the X-15 which can achieve sub orbital space flight (in 1963 btw) then there is no reason we shouldn't be capable of making a larger payload vehicle capable of the same 50 years after the fact.
X-15 also required a B-52 to drop it. A prof and I had doodled a Single Stage To Orbit-capable vehicle in college, but it had three big problems: cost as much as some entire air forces, required sixteen of the largest engines ever built, and we're talking an airframe FOUR HUNDRED feet long weighing a thousand tons--and there ain't many places you can land a ship 400' long with a 300'-plus-wingspan even with it designed for full amphibious Sea-to-Space-to-Land-and-do-it-all-over-again capability.
Not to mention that the beast would easily suck entire tanker squadrons dry to fill its tanks... actually, this project was around Columbia's timeframe and one of our goals was "clamp a crippled Shuttle onto its back and bring them both through safe reentry."
63821 Yes, that Saturn V is to-scale, and the speck in front of #8 exhaust nozzle is the Sketchup standard human figure model for further illustration. (The bird illustrated is a VBSS variant, meant to seize and secure hijacked airliners in midair.)
X-15 also required a B-52 to drop it. A prof and I had doodled a Single Stage To Orbit-capable vehicle in college, but it had three big problems: cost as much as some entire air forces, required sixteen of the largest engines ever built, and we're talking an airframe FOUR HUNDRED feet long weighing a thousand tons--and there ain't many places you can land a ship 400' long with a 300'-plus-wingspan even with it designed for full amphibious Sea-to-Space-to-Land-and-do-it-all-over-again capability.
Not to mention that the beast would easily suck entire tanker squadrons dry to fill its tanks... actually, this project was around Columbia's timeframe and one of our goals was "clamp a crippled Shuttle onto its back and bring them both through safe reentry."
63821 Yes, that Saturn V is to-scale, and the speck in front of #8 exhaust nozzle is the Sketchup standard human figure model for further illustration. (The bird illustrated is a VBSS variant, meant to seize and secure hijacked airliners in midair.)
I know with the Shuttle we had to give a little to get a little and that is the way of all new, cutting edge technology. I just think we should have given a little more in some areas. Think of what would have happened during the Challenger event IF the crew compartment was blown free and parachuted into the ocean with people banged and bruised but otherwise in great condition for just participating in a vehicle explosion.
Confidence, not to mention investment, into the shuttle program would have soared. You couldn't have purchased that kind of faith for any amount of money. The world would have taken notice, a momentary setback would have quickly turned into a great victory. But it seems NASA just didn't think like that.
Granted some things are unavoidable because we couldn't reasonably imagine the Apollo 1 fire. Hatches that opened inside rather than outside prevented them from escaping even if it was humanly possible during a fire in a pure oxygen environment.
These are the unforeseeable tragedies that nobody can reasonably trouble shoot. We can eventually accept them because they aren't a O rings that basically has a real world design flaw and has documented histories of failure.
In 1980 The British SAS decisively brought their Iranian hostage crisis to a conclusion. Literally only a week before our efforts to rescue our hostages in Iran met with disaster. Granted England was working on home territory with fewer challenges and we were going over there to fight our way in, grab our guys and fight our way out.
One rescue failed and one rescue succeeded. We carried the failure of our attempt for years, England's daring operation had everyone believing James Bond was real and he worked for something called the SAS. With a few variables the roles could have been reversed with us bringing home our rescued hostages with a ticker tape parade in NYC and the Iranian Revolution with the shattered confidence of Kaddafi after we brought his shit home to him.
At the same time the London raid could have been a disaster where they breached doors wired with explosive, hostages killed by terrorists and the loss of key members of the team.
And this is why if you can spend another 5% on what is likely to ensure a better outcome, you spend the money.
The previous year I had returned to the States from Honduras/Nicaragua, just got promoted, and was in my 21 week Aviation Captain's Career Course at Fort Rucker, Alabama. Didn't see it live but some NCO came in to our group discussion room and let us know what had happened. It was one of those events where you always remember where you were.
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