View Full Version : GAO report on "Federal Tactical Teams"
An interesting read for anyone with some time to spare. Heck, never knew that Amtrak had a Special Operations Team:
https://www.gao.gov/assets/710/709297.pdf
BoringGuy45
09-23-20, 20:45
Amtrak Police just has your typical part time SWAT team. Nothing really all that high speed. That's pretty much like every local, county, state, and federal police department in the country; either they have a SWAT team or are part of a multi-agency SWAT team. Every agency wants to make sure that they have at least a few of their officers who are qualified to wear plate carriers and carry around SBRs.
While I don't think every agency, department, jurisdiction and municipality need one, I think they need access to one. I think that los federales especially could do with some LE consolidation.
BoringGuy45
09-24-20, 08:06
While I don't think every agency, department, jurisdiction and municipality need one, I think they need access to one. I think that los federales especially could do with some LE consolidation.
In general, just about every level of law enforcement in the U.S. needs some amount of consolidation. Most of the part time SWAT teams, both local and federal, are woefully under trained and unprepared for major incidents. According to that article, the only true, tier 1 level counterterrorism units we have are FBI HRT, the Coast Guard MSRT, and possibly BORTAC. With the current and increasing chaos, I'm thinking that lot of these part time state and local SWAT teams should start considering consolidation. Even in some of the biggest cities, the SWAT teams are only part time. It makes more sense to have a highly capable, full time, statewide, multi-agency tactical unit capable of responding to major events than for every agency to have a small part time unit.
The same goes for a lot of the federal units. They could probably combine the part time teams into regional full time units, and probably even combine some of the related agencies' units into one team. Example: Border Patrol, CBP, and ICE could probably combine all their tactical teams into one unit (with regional teams).
In general, just about every level of law enforcement in the U.S. needs some amount of consolidation. Most of the part time SWAT teams, both local and federal, are woefully under trained and unprepared for major incidents. According to that article, the only true, tier 1 level counterterrorism units we have are FBI HRT, the Coast Guard MSRT, and possibly BORTAC. With the current and increasing chaos, I'm thinking that lot of these part time state and local SWAT teams should start considering consolidation. Even in some of the biggest cities, the SWAT teams are only part time. It makes more sense to have a highly capable, full time, statewide, multi-agency tactical unit capable of responding to major events than for every agency to have a small part time unit.
The same goes for a lot of the federal units. They could probably combine the part time teams into regional full time units, and probably even combine some of the related agencies' units into one team. Example: Border Patrol, CBP, and ICE could probably combine all their tactical teams into one unit (with regional teams).
Dogma dies hard. Moving to regional and consolidated teams means giving up power and control, but it's been done and has been validated. We've seen this with tac/SWAT in many areas, and certainly with HAZMAT/CBRNE, bomb teams, and specialty rescue.
I have been a tac medic on three teams; one with a full-time team (which is a very good unit); and two 'part-time' ad hoc teams. You can imagine which is the better trained. On one of the PT teams, one tac officer shot himself in the foot with a M4 during a state-wide training event.
In my too-much-government-waste-and-bloated-big-government mind, our state is horribly set up: a highway patrol, a SBI, and a little POS agency called "alcohol law enforcement," a modern-day version of the booze revenue police. That doesn't even count the other 23 state LE agencies that have their own C&C, leadership, training, tac teams, etc. (i.e., wildlife, fisheries, capitol police, etc.).
Dogma dies hard. Moving to regional and consolidated teams means giving up power and control, but it's been done and has been validated. We've seen this with tac/SWAT in many areas, and certainly with HAZMAT/CBRNE, bomb teams, and specialty rescue.
I have been a tac medic on three teams; one with a full-time team (which is a very good unit); and two 'part-time' ad hoc teams. You can imagine which is the better trained. On one of the PT teams, one tac officer shot himself in the foot with a M4 during a state-wide training event.
In my too-much-government-waste-and-bloated-big-government mind, our state is horribly set up: a highway patrol, a SBI, and a little POS agency called "alcohol law enforcement," a modern-day version of the booze revenue police. That doesn't even count the other 23 state LE agencies that have their own C&C, leadership, training, tac teams, etc. (i.e., wildlife, fisheries, capitol police, etc.).
NC still have a state run monopoly on liquor sales?
I agree that LE needs a lot more consolidation, particularly at the state and fed level. Cut the fat and the deadwood. We still need local (County, municipality) cops to be local, in my opinion, though.
One of the reasons there are so many part time SWAT teams is that most Chiefs, Sheriffs, Mayors, Councilmen, etc. don’t give a shit about a maximally proficient SWAT, SRT, Dive Team, etc. They just want to be able to say they have one. Its like dudes that put a Truglo dot on their rifles. They’re more interested in having patrol units in service because they are visible, and making your SWAT dudes patrol kills two birds with one stone. Even better if he’s also a dog dude and a diver. So many birds, one salary.
Our dudes are actually pretty proficient for a part time team (County SRT), due to frequent training, and the prior backgrounds of the members. I was pleasantly surprised. We also get called frequently. Some of the city SWAT guys, though, are.... ummm... interesting.
NC still have a state run monopoly on liquor sales?
I agree that LE needs a lot more consolidation, particularly at the state and fed level. Cut the fat and the deadwood. We still need local (County, municipality) cops to be local, in my opinion, though.
One of the reasons there are so many part time SWAT teams is that most Chiefs, Sheriffs, Mayors, Councilmen, etc. don’t give a shit about a maximally proficient SWAT, SRT, Dive Team, etc. They just want to be able to say they have one. Its like dudes that put a Truglo dot on their rifles. They’re more interested in having patrol units in service because they are visible, and making your SWAT dudes patrol kills two birds with one stone. Even better if he’s also a dog dude and a diver. So many birds, one salary.
Our dudes are actually pretty proficient for a part time team (County SRT), due to frequent training, and the prior backgrounds of the members. I was pleasantly surprised. We also get called frequently. Some of the city SWAT guys, though, are.... ummm... interesting.
Yes...yes we do :mad:. Such utter bullshit.
Our city team is really good. They get seconded to back up FBI and BORTAC from time to time. "Back in the day" I had to be state-certified LEO to be a medic on the team. The county (SD) has a team, too; I really don't know too much about them.
Yes...yes we do :mad:. Such utter bullshit.
At least they let you hunt on Sunday, now. Lol.
At least they let you hunt on Sunday, now. Lol.
We need a 'like' button. I know, right? Still can't buy liquor on Sundays; beer and wine after 12 noon. Sometimes I really hate my state.
BoringGuy45
09-24-20, 10:11
Dogma dies hard. Moving to regional and consolidated teams means giving up power and control, but it's been done and has been validated. We've seen this with tac/SWAT in many areas, and certainly with HAZMAT/CBRNE, bomb teams, and specialty rescue.
I have been a tac medic on three teams; one with a full-time team (which is a very good unit); and two 'part-time' ad hoc teams. You can imagine which is the better trained. On one of the PT teams, one tac officer shot himself in the foot with a M4 during a state-wide training event.
In my too-much-government-waste-and-bloated-big-government mind, our state is horribly set up: a highway patrol, a SBI, and a little POS agency called "alcohol law enforcement," a modern-day version of the booze revenue police. That doesn't even count the other 23 state LE agencies that have their own C&C, leadership, training, tac teams, etc. (i.e., wildlife, fisheries, capitol police, etc.).
I'm not one to talk about government waste and bloated big government in my state, as they wrote the book on it. But one thing we do have is a single state police agency that encompasses all of the above state agencies you listed, as well as being the primary LE agency for towns without a municipal PD. We do have environmental police that are a separate agency though, but given the nature of their work, combining them with the State Police wouldn't work. The downside to this is the fact that, first, we don't have county government and therefore no sheriff's offices or county PDs. While there are some very good state troopers that I know, the State Police, as an agency, cannot be trusted to refuse unconstitutional orders in the way that county sheriffs have been doing in many states. They also have a lot of control over POST standards as well, so they could easily disband any local PD or decertify any officer that didn't comply with such orders. So there is some downside to centralizing law enforcement.
In terms of tactical teams, the only full time team unit in my state is a very small segment of the State Police tactical team, and I think they do a lot more research and development of tactics and equipment than actual door kicking. Most of the very small agencies here usually rely on the State Police SWAT team for tactical response, and most of the medium and larger agencies are part of regional teams. Most of the cities have their own teams. That being said, again, all these teams, including the bigger city teams, are part time and not really ready for major incidents. They really could combine the SP, regional, and municipal teams into 1 statewide full time team (with part time reserves) and it would likely cost less and have more capabilities.
I'm not one to talk about government waste and bloated big government in my state, as they wrote the book on it. But one thing we do have is a single state police agency that encompasses all of the above state agencies you listed, as well as being the primary LE agency for towns without a municipal PD. We do have environmental police that are a separate agency though, but given the nature of their work, combining them with the State Police wouldn't work. The downside to this is the fact that, first, we don't have county government and therefore no sheriff's offices or county PDs. While there are some very good state troopers that I know, the State Police, as an agency, cannot be trusted to refuse unconstitutional orders in the way that county sheriffs have been doing in many states. They also have a lot of control over POST standards as well, so they could easily disband any local PD or decertify any officer that didn't comply with such orders. So there is some downside to centralizing law enforcement.
In terms of tactical teams, the only full time team unit in my state is a very small segment of the State Police tactical team, and I think they do a lot more research and development of tactics and equipment than actual door kicking. Most of the very small agencies here usually rely on the State Police SWAT team for tactical response, and most of the medium and larger agencies are part of regional teams. Most of the cities have their own teams. That being said, again, all these teams, including the bigger city teams, are part time and not really ready for major incidents. They really could combine the SP, regional, and municipal teams into 1 statewide full time team (with part time reserves) and it would likely cost less and have more capabilities.
I interviewed and turned down a job with the Maryland State Police back in the mid-90s, a trooper medic. I really really like their model and I like how they did things. It sounds very similar.
sundance435
09-24-20, 10:55
The baffling thing for me about this report was that Marshalls' SOG numbers were sensitive, but not HRT, Secret Service, and Nuclear Security.
The equipment list is more telling as far as what "specializations" some of these teams have, which is to say, none. No thermal, breaching devices, even flash bangs, etc. = a very basic, 100,000-person city "SWAT" team. Based solely on this article, I would say there's clearly room for consolidation. The only reason there isn't is because these agencies can't play together and they want to use their own guys, even if they're not the most qualified. See, "Waco", for proof. In my few years in LE we interacted quite a bit with federal LE. Most of the grunt work is done by the teams they form from local PDs/Sheriff. Those same guys probably have lots of experience kicking doors and executing warrants, but protocol dictates they call in a "team". So there's another reason "SWAT" teams have proliferated in general - they're required by policy for stuff that the lowspeed/high drag guys, for better or worse, used to do routinely.
Does anyone really think ATF needs SWAT teams? EOD, yes. SWAT, no. Call the FBI.
BoringGuy45
09-24-20, 11:38
I interviewed and turned down a job with the Maryland State Police back in the mid-90s, a trooper medic. I really really like their model and I like how they did things. It sounds very similar.
Maryland troopers are full service and have jurisdiction everywhere, but usually the county LE agencies, either sheriffs or county PDs depending on the county, handle most calls for service off the highway. Troopers mostly just back them up and do highway patrol, but yeah, they are more consolidated than states like NC that just have separate highway patrol, state investigation, etc. The county agencies in MD, however, usually cover the entire county regardless of municipal boundaries, and most of MD is unincorporated anyway. Around the Baltimore and Washington metro areas, the county agencies are very large and self sustaining and require very little assistance from MSP. Most of them have full time tactical teams as well. This is good for MSP as they can focus their special services on helping the smaller county agencies in the south and western parts of the state.
It's a private federal army that they sneaked in under the radar. Especially now with everything coordinated under DHS, all these various operator types can be brought together into a literal fighting force lickity split.
dwhitehorne
09-24-20, 20:35
Funny they show HHS with 2 people. That's the Doctor and Paramedic assigned to the USPP SWAT. They are a great resource and provide valuable tactical medical training (TCCC) to patrol during in-service. David
dwhitehorne
09-24-20, 20:49
It's a private federal army that they sneaked in under the radar. Especially now with everything coordinated under DHS, all these various operator types can be brought together into a literal fighting force lickity split.
The issue is with Feds just like the State/local teams is 12 to 18 guys just doesn't cut it for a long operation or clearing a large buildings. Years ago I was one of many on perimeter in the DC "Tractor Man" incident. Providing 24/7 CS and SWAT coverage for multiple days is not something two sniper teams in a 12 person SWAT units can handle so the Feds do bring in others to assist. In the Navy yard active shooter incident the building was multiple floors that were a city block long. Imagine coming through a stairway door onto a floor with hundreds of cubicles to clear. Two teams of 6 in DC is fully staffed for us. You run out of bodies quickly when covering large areas. Imagine being on long cover in a hallway that is 300 yards long. Some of the older Federal buildings could accommodate two way vehicle traffic in the hallways. David
The issue is with Feds just like the State/local teams is 12 to 18 guys just doesn't cut it for a long operation or clearing a large buildings. Years ago I was one of many on perimeter in the DC "Tractor Man" incident. Providing 24/7 CS and SWAT coverage for multiple days is not something two sniper teams in a 12 person SWAT units can handle so the Feds do bring in others to assist. In the Navy yard active shooter incident the building was multiple floors that were a city block long. Imagine coming through a stairway door onto a floor with hundreds of cubicles to clear. Two teams of 6 in DC is fully staffed for us. You run out of bodies quickly when covering large areas. Imagine being on long cover in a hallway that is 300 yards long. Some of the older Federal buildings could accommodate two way vehicle traffic in the hallways. David
Literally why we have the National Guard. As prescribed in the constitution.
BoringGuy45
09-24-20, 21:12
It's a private federal army that they sneaked in under the radar. Especially now with everything coordinated under DHS, all these various operator types can be brought together into a literal fighting force lickity split.
I wouldn't say it's under the radar. This information is pretty open for the public to see. Also, not everything is coordinated by DHS; it's DOJ and DHS.
There's way too much inconsistency between all these teams for them to quickly be organized into some domestic army. FBI HRT is the only LE team that is actually the equivalent of military JSOC special mission units. The CG MSRT is probably pretty close to the SEALs in terms of VBSS and maritime counterterrorism abilities, though it doesn't sound like they do any over the beach stuff. But it sounds like these are the only two teams capable of actual special operations combat and not simply high risk law enforcement operations. Other than that? Most of the other teams appear to be no more trained for actual combat than local LE agencies' SWAT teams. Altogether, the combined members of all these tactical teams is only amounts to a couple thousand overall. That's not really a private army that should be greatly feared as some unchecked threat to freedom.
HardToHandle
09-24-20, 21:22
Literally why we have the National Guard. As prescribed in the constitution.
Respectfully, the term “National Guard” is nowhere in the Constitution. They operate under the militia concepts of the constitution. As we all know, the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act effectively bars federal troops from any law enforcement mission.
And let me assure you, getting the Guard out for an active shooter would be clown show extraordinaire. A few years back, I had a one-star dual hatted Joint Task Force commander tell me “I will never ever authorize my soldiers to carry weapons inside the US”. I paraphrased his response back to him and asked him to repeat it, which he did verbatim.
There are some limited cases, such as a shooter on Guard base, where scenarios could play out differently. Those are scenarios where established ROEs exist, lawyers have sold off on it and likely Governors have provided delegated authorities. That means only in Red States.
Anyone who expects the Guard to provide any meaningful assistance is at best wholly uninformed. It would be faster to ask another country for assistance.
I wouldn't say it's under the radar. This information is pretty open for the public to see. Also, not everything is coordinated by DHS; it's DOJ and DHS.
There's way too much inconsistency between all these teams for them to quickly be organized into some domestic army. FBI HRT is the only LE team that is actually the equivalent of military JSOC special mission units. The CG MSRT is probably pretty close to the SEALs in terms of VBSS and maritime counterterrorism abilities, though it doesn't sound like they do any over the beach stuff. But it sounds like these are the only two teams capable of actual special operations combat and not simply high risk law enforcement operations. Other than that? Most of the other teams appear to be no more trained for actual combat than local LE agencies' SWAT teams. Altogether, the combined members of all these tactical teams is only amounts to a couple thousand overall. That's not really a private army that should be greatly feared as some unchecked threat to freedom.
I never said they were trained for military operations. In terms of paramilitary operations, though, they're streamlined and top notch. They're the culmination of all the fears of our founders. An army of soldiers meant not for repelling invasions, but for policing the people themselves.
Don't kid yourself either when it comes to their lack of direct military capabilities. Wherever their paramilitary capabilities come up short, they're now heavily integrated into the actual military. So if they ever get to the point where they need mortars and airstrikes, they can simply attach whatever national guard resources that they need.
Respectfully, the term “National Guard” is nowhere in the Constitution. They operate under the militia concepts of the constitution. As we all know, the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act effectively bars federal troops from any law enforcement mission.
And let me assure you, getting the Guard out for an active shooter would be clown show extraordinaire. A few years back, I had a one-star dual hatted Joint Task Force commander tell me “I will never ever authorize my soldiers to carry weapons inside the US”. I paraphrased his response back to him and asked him to repeat it, which he did verbatim.
There are some limited cases, such as a shooter on Guard base, where scenarios could play out differently. Those are scenarios where established ROEs exist, lawyers have sold off on it and likely Governors have provided delegated authorities. That means only in Red States.
Anyone who expects the Guard to provide any meaningful assistance is at best wholly uninformed. It would be faster to ask another country for assistance.
That's only because the guard has been gutted of its original purpose as the militia, and has been reduced to simply being an auxiliary of the active duty army. The intent is that the militia is supposed to be a domestic force for domestic matters, that can in times of war be called up and used as a standing army to repel invasions. They are supposed to have a monopoly on the use of force by the government in all domestic matters.
Don't you think it's curious that we rely on the guard for other, non military domestic affairs, like disaster relief, but not for the very things that the constitution prescribes? It's not a matter of the guard not having a capability, or not being able to develop that capability, it's a matter of the federal government wanting its own door kickers who aren't your neighbors, and who aren't beholden to local and state commanders.
The reason the founders gave the militia a monopoly on the use of government force was so that the federal government couldn't run roughshod over the states. Take for example the states that have neutralized the NFA without effect, because they can't stop federal police from conducting unconstitutional raids on state soil. That is exactly the kind of thing that this system was there to prevent. It was also intended to distribute force, such that the only people authorized to order its use were by definition your local leaders. In effect, your friends and neighbors. The people you sit next to in church, the people your kids play little league with, etc. The governors and local militia commanders had to live and eat in the same locales where they were going to be ordering any triggers pulled, so they had to walk a very straight and narrow path. Now the orders are given from on high, by people in the federal government, who have zero accountability on a local level. And the triggers are pulled by largely anonymous people from all over the country, who can simply go into hiding after the fact, like the notorious Horiuchi. They can come in and do the fed's dirty work, and then just walk away. Vs. the original militia, who would have had to look those people in the eye when they went to church every Sunday.
BoringGuy45
09-24-20, 21:56
I never said they were trained for military operations. In terms of paramilitary operations, though, they're streamlined and top notch. They're the culmination of all the fears of our founders. An army of soldiers meant not for repelling invasions, but for policing the people themselves.
Don't kid yourself either when it comes to their lack of direct military capabilities. Wherever their paramilitary capabilities come up short, they're now heavily integrated into the actual military. So if they ever get to the point where they need mortars and airstrikes, they can simply attach whatever national guard resources that they need.
Other than the few full time units, these teams aren't "streamlined and top notch". I've worked with feds before. The part time guys are doing collateral duty for high risk warrants, and not much more than that. A lot of them are also just security responses teams for government property. Don't give the federal government too much credit for the ability to cooperate and organize; also the NG is largely a reserve force and mostly consists of non-combat units.
Other than the few full time units, these teams aren't "streamlined and top notch". I've worked with feds before. The part time guys are doing collateral duty for high risk warrants, and not much more than that. A lot of them are also just security responses teams for government property. Don't give the federal government too much credit for the ability to cooperate and organize; also the NG is largely a reserve force and mostly consists of non-combat units.
You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they're delta force. I'm saying their equipment and tactics are streamlined for paramilitary operations, and they are quite good at it. And getting better all the time.
BoringGuy45
09-24-20, 22:15
You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they're delta force. I'm saying their equipment and tactics are streamlined for paramilitary operations, and they are quite good at it. And getting better all the time.
FBI HRT pretty much is as close to Delta Force you can get: Their selection course and operator training program is nearly identical, save for the fact that HRT's course is modified to conform to domestic law enforcement rather than military operations. But other than HRT and the other ones I mentioned, the other units are not really streamlined for paramilitary operations and they aren't really any better at it than state and local PD SWAT units. I'd actually take a full time local unit like LAPD SWAT over a part time federal unit. Most SWAT units aren't trained for counterterrorism; they're trained for high risk arrests of one or a small number of potentially dangerous suspects.
FBI HRT pretty much is as close to Delta Force you can get: Their selection course and operator training program is nearly identical, save for the fact that HRT's course is modified to conform to domestic law enforcement rather than military operations. But other than HRT and the other ones I mentioned, the other units are not really streamlined for paramilitary operations and they aren't really any better at it than state and local PD SWAT units. I'd actually take a full time local unit like LAPD SWAT over a part time federal unit. Most SWAT units aren't trained for counterterrorism; they're trained for high risk arrests of one or a small number of potentially dangerous suspects.
You seem to think that paramilitary is synonymous with "high speed tier one." All it means is that they're illegitimate trigger pullers operating in a capacity they're not legally authorized for, in the guise of something else. In the case of the US, they're operating under the guise of law enforcement, but doing the job that is specifically assigned to the militia by the constitution.
Article 1, section 8:
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
Notice that law enforcement is NUMBER ONE on the militia's list of duties. And repelling invasions is last. Like I said before, they are first and foremost a domestic organization that can, in extreme circumstances, be transformed into a standing army, temporarily, to put down insurrections or repel invasions.
The way this is supposed to work is the local militia is supposed to be the enforcement arm of the justice department. The way it's supposed to work is someone would make a formal complaint to a magistrate, regarding some illegal behavior. This could be a paid officer of the court, like a local prosecutor, or a citizen. The magistrate would hear the evidence and issue a warrant. If the individual named in the warrant refuses to come peacefully, the local militia would be called out to do whatever was necessary.
BUT, with many checks against the federal government. Because the militia is first and foremost at the command of the governor, and the individual officers, all of whom are state officers. So, for example, a federal judge could order a warrant, but it would be meaningless if the local militia refused to serve it.
It's a beautiful system, because ultimately it forces the actual door kickers to be the local peers of the individual whose door they're kicking in. The guy who actually gives the order might be your kid's little league coach, and the guys coming through the door might actually be friends and coworkers. So they're not even going to think about serving a warrant that they don't believe in, because they will be held accountable by their own communities.
There simply were not supposed to be professional door kickers, period. The actual force was supposed to be distributed amongst the people themselves, such that everyone from farmer to teacher might end up being the one responsible for making those life and death decisions. Therefore, only laws that were in the interest of the people would be enforced. Such as apprehending murderers. Laws that the people had no interest in, they would have no stomach for enforcing. It's quite simple really. Would you, as an unpaid volunteer, shoot your neighbor in the face because he had an unregistered silencer or some whacky tobaccy growing in his basement? Of course you wouldn't. Nobody would. And more importantly, nobody would even bother asking you to in the first place, and such laws would never be passed, because they could never be enforced. Tyranny requires highly centralized enforcement. Our founders understood that perfectly, and devised the perfect system to counter it.
BoringGuy45
09-24-20, 22:57
You seem to think that paramilitary is synonymous with "high speed tier one." All it means is that they're illegitimate trigger pullers operating in a capacity they're not legally authorized for, in the guise of something else. In the case of the US, they're operating under the guise of law enforcement, but doing the job that is specifically assigned to the militia by the constitution.
Article 1, section 8:
Notice that law enforcement is NUMBER ONE on the militia's list of duties. And repelling invasions is last. Like I said before, they are first and foremost a domestic organization that can, in extreme circumstances, be transformed into a standing army, temporarily, to put down insurrections or repel invasions.
The way this is supposed to work is the local militia is supposed to be the enforcement arm of the justice department. The way it's supposed to work is someone would make a formal complaint to a magistrate, regarding some illegal behavior. This could be a paid officer of the court, like a local prosecutor, or a citizen. The magistrate would hear the evidence and issue a warrant. If the individual named in the warrant refuses to come peacefully, the local militia would be called out to do whatever was necessary.
BUT, with many checks against the federal government. Because the militia is first and foremost at the command of the governor, and the individual officers, all of whom are state officers. So, for example, a federal judge could order a warrant, but it would be meaningless if the local militia refused to serve it.
It's a beautiful system, because ultimately it forces the actual door kickers to be the local peers of the individual whose door they're kicking in. The guy who actually gives the order might be your kid's little league coach, and the guys coming through the door might actually be friends and coworkers. So they're not even going to think about serving a warrant that they don't believe in, because they will be held accountable by their own communities.
There simply were not supposed to be professional door kickers, period. The actual force was supposed to be distributed amongst the people themselves, such that everyone from farmer to teacher might end up being the one responsible for making those life and death decisions. Therefore, only laws that were in the interest of the people would be enforced. Such as apprehending murderers. Laws that the people had no interest in, they would have no stomach for enforcing. It's quite simple really. Would you, as an unpaid volunteer, shoot your neighbor in the face because he had an unregistered silencer or some whacky tobaccy growing in his basement? Of course you wouldn't. Nobody would. And more importantly, nobody would even bother asking you to in the first place, and such laws would never be passed, because they could never be enforced. Tyranny requires highly centralized enforcement. Our founders understood that perfectly, and devised the perfect system to counter it.
Well, right now most of the tyranny is coming from local and state governments, so really there's no perfect system. The Founding Fathers didn't agree on whether the US should be more federal or confederate as both local and central governments can be oppressive. Our system of government is designed with checks and balances in mind: Government doesn't have absolute control of the people, the people aren't ungoverned, the federal government keeps the states in check, the states keep the feds in check.
Also, sheriffs offices have existed pretty much since the founding of the country, as has the US Marshals Service. There's also always been a standing federal military, though it was obviously quite small in the early days of the US. So the idea that volunteer citizen militias are the only legal and constitutionally legitimate form of law enforcement and military isn't true. Perhaps that's how it worked in the early days of the country when that was all there was available, but there's nothing in the constitution that prohibits full time police forces from being formed.
Well, right now most of the tyranny is coming from local and state governments, so really there's no perfect system. The Founding Fathers didn't agree on whether the US should be more federal or confederate as both local and central governments can be oppressive. Our system of government is designed with checks and balances in mind: Government doesn't have absolute control of the people, the people aren't ungoverned, the federal government keeps the states in check, the states keep the feds in check.
Also, sheriffs offices have existed pretty much since the founding of the country, as has the US Marshals Service. There's also always been a standing federal military, though it was obviously quite small in the early days of the US. So the idea that volunteer citizen militias are the only legal and constitutionally legitimate form of law enforcement and military isn't true. Perhaps that's how it worked in the early days of the country when that was all there was available, but there's nothing in the constitution that prohibits full time police forces from being formed.
Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it's constitutional. Take for example reserve banks. Totally unconstitutional, and yet we got our first reserve bank almost right away.
Sheriffs also served in a pretty different capacity back then than they do today, and were local, not federal, so not really applicable to this topic. They were basically jailers and errand boys for the courts, which is still their primary capacity to this day. If doors needed to be kicked, they still relied on the local townspeople in the form of posses. A sheriff had zero paramilitary resources at his disposal back then. That's actually been very recent.
There will always be shades of gray, but the constitution is pretty clear. Executing laws is the militia's domain, and the federal government is prohibited from having its own armed forces except for finite periods during a time of declared war.
Errybody wanna LARP sadly.
Your tax dollars are appreciated to be certain.
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How about just be a solid officer with a good command of the law and jurisprudence amongst other solid officers and we can forget this Jethro Gibbs Fck fantasy of being “practically HRT”?
Most of this is ego or playing army. Real police just wanna put people in jail.
What they think they look like:
https://tvline.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/swat-renewed-cancelled-cbs.jpg
What they actually look like:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c5/47/89/c5478908d097a42da52f4971d579226a.jpg
What real police who close shit do:
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/2017/09/30/USATODAY/USATODAY/636423937425139027-XXX-D4-MONTY-HALL-27-TV.jpg?width=2560
Not enough prisons to play John Wayne...
FBI HRT pretty much is as close to Delta Force you can get: Their selection course and operator training program is nearly identical, save for the fact that HRT's course is modified to conform to domestic law enforcement rather than military operations. But other than HRT and the other ones I mentioned, the other units are not really streamlined for paramilitary operations and they aren't really any better at it than state and local PD SWAT units. I'd actually take a full time local unit like LAPD SWAT over a part time federal unit. Most SWAT units aren't trained for counterterrorism; they're trained for high risk arrests of one or a small number of potentially dangerous suspects.
HRT is ostensibly the Federal LEO counterpart to Delta/CAG. From what I've read the capabilities are quite similar. Really tough to make it into also. That said, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that what a CAG operator candidate goes through at Camp Dawson for selection probably edges out HRT in the "suck" category. Maybe not a night-and-day difference, but a certain amount more grueling. Like in the "How bad do you want to be here" category.
Okie, have you ever been in the National Guard?
Theres a huge gulf of difference in a part time Soldier and a part time SWAT dude. The part time SWAT dude is either out on patrol, or available locally (for local ones) on standby. The part time Soldier has a day job.
If I get a page for a callout (I’m a Medic, not a cop, though), I’m there pretty quickly. My gear is with me pretty much all the time. Page goes out, I call dispatch and tell them I’m in service, click the radio on, jump in my ride, and proceed to the scene or release point with whatever haste is due.
It takes an act of God to get me to go anywhere for a fight unscheduled for .mil. I need a WARNO, ammo request, a copy of orders, OPORD, DTS approved, transportation, somebody has to get to an ammo point, a trip to the arms room, more transportation, etc. Probably get pulled over at some point if theres any rush. All of this assumes I even answer the phone and am sober, since no one is paying me to be on-call for the Army.
A barricaded dude in a large structure with a hostage is completely different from a hurricane.
One of the reasons there are so many part time SWAT teams is that most Chiefs, Sheriffs, Mayors, Councilmen, etc. don’t give a shit about a maximally proficient SWAT, SRT, Dive Team, etc. They just want to be able to say they have one. Its like dudes that put a Truglo dot on their rifles. They’re more interested in having patrol units in service because they are visible, and making your SWAT dudes patrol kills two birds with one stone. Even better if he’s also a dog dude and a diver. So many birds, one salary.
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I know our county has SWAT, not sure about the bigger departments but they probably have something. The problem with the county is that there's a lot of little towns with a few officers. Now, all these towns kinda blend into one another so it's not like you have to drive some distance to get from one to the other but still each one with a different "mayor", police chief, budget....etc.. my township has something around 20-30 sworn personnel. Meaning from chief to rookie. The next town south probably about the same. The town north has less. There's one town not far from my work that has 4. One chief and 3 officers, one per shift. The town is like 2sq miles and sits in the middle of another township which is 29sq miles and probably has around 100 officers.
Then you have boroughs which were originally the town before it expanded and became a township. Many of the boroughs have their own departments and their own gov. For instance Newtown borough sits in the middle of Newtown township because it's the original town before expansion. Each one has their own police, fire and local gov even though it should and probably could be consolidated into one. So you end up with a 100 little departments that wouldn't be able to have SWAT even if they wanted. Granted most of these towns will never hear a gunshot in anger so there's no sense in spending the money on a dedicated township SWAT.
Yes...yes we do :mad:. Such utter bullshit.
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We have them too. Part of the Pa state police although they're not armed and are not "police" officers. So they're not patrolling
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Maryland troopers are full service and have jurisdiction everywhere, but usually the county LE agencies, either sheriffs or county PDs depending on the county, handle most calls for service off the highway. Troopers mostly just back them up and do highway patrol, but yeah, they are more consolidated than states like NC that just have separate highway patrol, state investigation, etc. The county agencies in MD, however, usually cover the entire county regardless of municipal boundaries, and most of MD is unincorporated anyway. Around the Baltimore and Washington metro areas, the county agencies are very large and self sustaining and require very little assistance from MSP. Most of them have full time tactical teams as well. This is good for MSP as they can focus their special services on helping the smaller county agencies in the south and western parts of the state.
That's one thing I like. In NC. everything is so encapsulated. Tired of HP and want to go into investigations? You gotta apply to the SBI and go through their training. Such a waste of money and so disorganized. To work with more than one of them in a for-real event or training is like watching a circus; they can't even share comms.
Edited to add re: MSP, I love--LOVE--their trooper-medic job. I would have have gone if it wasn't for a very sick mother in NC I could not leave. I would not have cared to work the I-95/Washington-Baltimore corridor, but east or west, man, that's some beautiful land.
FBI HRT pretty much is as close to Delta Force you can get: Their selection course and operator training program is nearly identical, save for the fact that HRT's course is modified to conform to domestic law enforcement rather than military operations. But other than HRT and the other ones I mentioned, the other units are not really streamlined for paramilitary operations and they aren't really any better at it than state and local PD SWAT units. I'd actually take a full time local unit like LAPD SWAT over a part time federal unit. Most SWAT units aren't trained for counterterrorism; they're trained for high risk arrests of one or a small number of potentially dangerous suspects.
I begrudgingly give HRT a nod because they can walk the walk. I say 'begrudgingly' because a lot of them think their shi# don't stink. You know that old joke, "A crossfitter, a vegan, and a Navy SEAL walk into a bar....how do you know? It's the first thing they tell you." Add HRT to that joke. We did some stuff with them when I was both in the mil and with our local PD tac team, they can indeed do the job. I just wish they'd shut up about it.
BoringGuy45
09-25-20, 09:02
I know our county has SWAT, not sure about the bigger departments but they probably have something. The problem with the county is that there's a lot of little towns with a few officers. Now, all these towns kinda blend into one another so it's not like you have to drive some distance to get from one to the other but still each one with a different "mayor", police chief, budget....etc.. my township has something around 20-30 sworn personnel. Meaning from chief to rookie. The next town south probably about the same. The town north has less. There's one town not far from my work that has 4. One chief and 3 officers, one per shift. The town is like 2sq miles and sits in the middle of another township which is 29sq miles and probably has around 100 officers.
Then you have boroughs which were originally the town before it expanded and became a township. Many of the boroughs have their own departments and their own gov. For instance Newtown borough sits in the middle of Newtown township because it's the original town before expansion. Each one has their own police, fire and local gov even though it should and probably could be consolidated into one. So you end up with a 100 little departments that wouldn't be able to have SWAT even if they wanted. Granted most of these towns will never hear a gunshot in anger so there's no sense in spending the money on a dedicated township SWAT.
We have them too. Part of the Pa state police although they're not armed and are not "police" officers. So they're not patrolling
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PA is f**ked 6 ways to Sunday in terms of their law enforcement setup. It's nothing but dick measuring and small town politics. It's utterly moronic that the sheriffs are confined to court duties and not even considered police officers. All this inefficiency could be solved by giving sheriff's offices full police power and duties like in most of the other states and having them be the primary police force for most of their respective counties. But no, the chiefs of these 5 man departments in these one horse boroughs and townships aren't going to give up their little kingdoms to simply be a supervisor at a patrol precinct of the sheriff's office.
Hell, they could do it easier than that: If they didn't want to go through the agony of legislation to give the sheriff's full police status, the counties could just form county PDs, as two counties already have them in limited capacity and the system is already in place for that. But once again, the local PDs won't cooperate.
PA is f**ked 6 ways to Sunday in terms of their law enforcement setup. It's nothing but dick measuring and small town politics. It's utterly moronic that the sheriffs are confined to court duties and not even considered police officers. All this inefficiency could be solved by giving sheriff's offices full police power and duties like in most of the other states and having them be the primary police force for most of their respective counties. But no, the chiefs of these 5 man departments in these one horse boroughs and townships aren't going to give up their little kingdoms to simply be a supervisor at a patrol precinct of the sheriff's office.
Hell, they could do it easier than that: If they didn't want to go through the agony of legislation to give the sheriff's full police status, the counties could just form county PDs, as two counties already have them in limited capacity and the system is already in place for that. But once again, the local PDs won't cooperate.Yep. At the very least they could start by incorporating these small 2 man departments into the township they're in the middle of! Take for instance Middletown township. It's about 20sq miles and so I'm guessing they have about 60 cops, maybe more. However, they're located in Langhorne which has their own small police department! An the middle of this is the town of Penndel which is like 2sq miles and has 3 cops.
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sundance435
09-25-20, 10:28
Other than the few full time units, these teams aren't "streamlined and top notch". I've worked with feds before. The part time guys are doing collateral duty for high risk warrants, and not much more than that. A lot of them are also just security responses teams for government property. Don't give the federal government too much credit for the ability to cooperate and organize
Yes, this is it in a nutshell.
FBI But other than HRT and the other ones I mentioned, the other units are not really streamlined for paramilitary operations and they aren't really any better at it than state and local PD SWAT units. I'd actually take a full time local unit like LAPD SWAT over a part time federal unit. Most SWAT units aren't trained for counterterrorism; they're trained for high risk arrests of one or a small number of potentially dangerous suspects.
Yes, 100% I would take LAPD SWAT, Dallas SWAT, etc. for actual law enforcement SWAT tasks than most of these federal "teams". With the exception maybe of NYPD, I doubt any local SWAT or most of the federal teams have actual CT training. 99% of SWAT - local, county, state, and federal only carry out high-risk law enforcement specific tasks. Only in the movies do they handle major hostage situations, counter terrorism, etc. My slightly educated guess is that the only teams that have any real CT training besides HRT are USSS, Nuclear Security (still probably more asset-protection based CT), and FBI. I will say the USMS SOG guys are pretty close to HRT in their opinions of themselves, but I won't deny that they're hitters.
Yes, this is it in a nutshell.
Yes, 100% I would take LAPD SWAT, Dallas SWAT, etc. for actual SWAT tasks than most of these federal "teams". With the exception maybe of NYPD, I doubt any local SWAT or most of the federal teams have actual CT training. My slightly educated guess is that the only teams that have any real CT training besides HRT are USSS, Nuclear Security (still probably more asset-protection based CT), and FBI. I will say the USMS SOG guys are pretty close to HRT in their opinions of themselves, but they're hitters, too.
Not really accurate on the history of sheriffs, but your other points were good so I'll let it slide. "Modern" policing starts here with Boston, but sheriffs or constables were the only real law enforcement officers in most of this country until the later have of the 1800's. Yes, they were responsible for the jails and service of process, warrants, etc., but they also enforced laws in the entire county or precinct (constable) because there were no police departments.
In Pa Sheriff is a court officer. They don't patrol or respond to calls. However, they are not corrections. They protect the courthouse, do prisoner transfer, deeds, some warrants, anything court related.
Department of corrections is separate and does its own thing.
Police are separate from that and do what police typically do
Constables are basically bounty hunters. They're elected and go after those who skipped bail.
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Okie, have you ever been in the National Guard?
Theres a huge gulf of difference in a part time Soldier and a part time SWAT dude. The part time SWAT dude is either out on patrol, or available locally (for local ones) on standby. The part time Soldier has a day job.
That's the whole point. You're not going to shoot your friends, neighbors, and coworkers unless you have a really good reason to do so. Our founders didn't want professional door kickers for the same reason they didn't want professional jurors and career politicians. The people holding that kind of power shouldn't be relying on government for a paycheck, but rather acting on conscience and their sense of duty alone when executing orders.
If I get a page for a callout (I’m a Medic, not a cop, though), I’m there pretty quickly. My gear is with me pretty much all the time. Page goes out, I call dispatch and tell them I’m in service, click the radio on, jump in my ride, and proceed to the scene or release point with whatever haste is due.
It takes an act of God to get me to go anywhere for a fight unscheduled for .mil. I need a WARNO, ammo request, a copy of orders, OPORD, DTS approved, transportation, somebody has to get to an ammo point, a trip to the arms room, more transportation, etc. Probably get pulled over at some point if theres any rush. All of this assumes I even answer the phone and am sober, since no one is paying me to be on-call for the Army.
The same can be said of police in many cases. Investigators and SWAT will tell you that they have no set hours, and typically do those jobs as much off hours as on.
Even if what you say were true, though, are we really going to scrap the constitution for security on tap? And does it even work in the first place? Not really. Like everyone points out, the police are minutes away when seconds count. If security on tap worked like people think it does, we wouldn't have the overwhelming statistics to back up our claim that we need guns for personal protection.
So in effect, nothing would change. The police might get there a few minutes later (or maybe not), but the net result will be the same. If the victim had a gun, they'll probably still be alive. If not, they'll be there in time to determine time of death.
I wouldn't just automatically assume, though, that the constitutional system of using the militia would be any slower. Chances are it would be faster, because the militia, like our founders intended it, is a MASSIVE force, that is also evenly distributed. Imagine if virtually every person between 18 and 45 were in the militia. If one percent of them had their phones on and were in a position to answer a call from dispatch, the average person would have help in mere seconds. Especially with today's technology. We've come a long ways from calling out the militia by ringing the church bells.
A barricaded dude in a large structure with a hostage is completely different from a hurricane.
So is being in a mortar team, driving tanks, repairing radios, and all the other specialized tasks that the national guard does. Are you really telling me that if we return to a constitutional system that the national guard couldn't evolve to meet the challenge? Of course they would.
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sundance435
09-25-20, 10:47
Sheriffs also served in a pretty different capacity back then than they do today, and were local, not federal, so not really applicable to this topic. They were basically jailers and errand boys for the courts, which is still their primary capacity to this day. If doors needed to be kicked, they still relied on the local townspeople in the form of posses. A sheriff had zero paramilitary resources at his disposal back then. That's actually been very recent.
There will always be shades of gray, but the constitution is pretty clear. Executing laws is the militia's domain, and the federal government is prohibited from having its own armed forces except for finite periods during a time of declared war.
Your understanding and interpretation of the history of law enforcement, standing armies, etc., is precarious at best. First, your statement about sheriffs is only half true. That's what sheriffs were and are in England, but here, even before the Revolution, either they or constables were the chief law enforcement officers in each county/precinct and they deputized as necessary to enforce state laws. There was no state law enforcement.
Second, your interpretation of "militias" executing federal laws, well, I don't even really know where to begin with that. First, there is no prohibition in the Constitution against the federal government having a standing army. Literally all it says is that Congress shall appropriate the money for it (for periods no longer than 2 years, which is still true today) and the President shall command the armed forces as they are funded by Congress. The power to enforce federal law is given entirely to the Executive in the Constitution. The Executive has always accomplished this by appointing/deputizing others. In the early years of the Republic, the Marshals Service was the only federal law enforcement, not some "militia". Taxes, customs, etc. were collected by revenue agents, but they were nothing like law enforcers and were not empowered as such - dude won't pay the duties on his hemp imports? Notify the Marshals.
sundance435
09-25-20, 10:51
In Pa Sheriff is a court officer. They don't patrol or respond to calls. However, they are not corrections. They protect the courthouse, do prisoner transfer, deeds, some warrants, anything court related.
Department of corrections is separate and does its own thing.
Police are separate from that and do what police typically do
Constables are basically bounty hunters. They're elected and go after those who skipped bail.
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Yeah, there are some exceptions in the "old" states (and Hawaii), but it's not accurate to say as a whole that they were jailers and process servers. Sheriffs as law enforcement for colonial/state laws started before the Revolution. Basically, the Office of Sheriff started taking on new duties in the New World as soon as they were created because of necessity - you didn't have redcoats running around all over with the King's X. As new states joined, their constitutions obviously differed some from the early states because of experience and the sheriff positions created by them took on more responsibilities than in the older states.
Your understanding and interpretation of the history of law enforcement, standing armies, etc., is precarious at best. First, your statement about sheriffs is only half true. That's what sheriffs were and are in England, but here, even before the Revolution, either they or constables were the chief law enforcement officers in each county/precinct and they deputized as necessary to enforce state laws. There was no state law enforcement.
Second, your interpretation of "militias" executing federal laws, well, I don't even really know where to begin with that. First, there is no prohibition in the Constitution against the federal government having a standing army. Literally all it says is that Congress shall appropriate the money for it (for periods no longer than 2 years, which is still true today) and the President shall command the armed forces as they are funded by Congress. The power to enforce federal law is given entirely to the Executive in the Constitution. The Executive has always accomplished this by appointing/deputizing others. In the early years of the Republic, the Marshals Service was the only federal law enforcement, not some "militia". Taxes, customs, etc. were collected by revenue agents, but they were nothing like law enforcers and were not empowered as such - dude won't pay the duties on his hemp imports? Notify the Marshals.
Sheriffs in England were primarily judges, holding court like the king did, but on a much smaller level. They made unilateral decisions in local affairs, on behalf of the king. They were essentially dictators. Sheriffs in the colonies weren't anything like sheriffs in England. Even to this day, sheriff is synonymous with judge in parts of Great Britain.
The constitution reads:
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
There were never supposed to be standing armies. They were supposed to be raised in wartime and then dissolved. There was a standing navy to prevent coastal states from having too much power, but land forces were supposed to be the states' militias.
That's why congress had the power to dictate training for the various state militias, so that they could be called up to repel a foreign invasion.
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All those blue letters disputing my points, and you failed to answer the one question I asked of you. Have you ever been in the National Guard?
Why does everything devolve into Sovereign Citizen lolbertarianism?
Military recruiters are at the mall
Police and Sheriff’s are downtown.
If you can get in either one, have at it.
In b4 “They can’t pay me enough. I make good money as a DUI lawyer or HVAC. I refuse to serve under Biden. I have no place fighting with pissed off black folks”
In 20 years we have had a nice bevy of war and stateside Civil Unrest. Some have done one, some have done the other. Some have done both but a LOT have done neither.
All those blue letters disputing my points, and you failed to answer the one question I asked of you. Have you ever been in the National Guard?
Have you ever been in a colonial militia?
See, I can ask silly and largely irrelevant questions, too.
That's one thing I like. In NC. everything is so encapsulated. Tired of HP and want to go into investigations? You gotta apply to the SBI and go through their training. Such a waste of money and so disorganized. To work with more than one of them in a for-real event or training is like watching a circus; they can't even share comms.
Edited to add re: MSP, I love--LOVE--their trooper-medic job. I would have have gone if it wasn't for a very sick mother in NC I could not leave. I would not have cared to work the I-95/Washington-Baltimore corridor, but east or west, man, that's some beautiful land.
I begrudgingly give HRT a nod because they can walk the walk. I say 'begrudgingly' because a lot of them think their shi# don't stink. You know that old joke, "A crossfitter, a vegan, and a Navy SEAL walk into a bar....how do you know? It's the first thing they tell you." Add HRT to that joke. We did some stuff with them when I was both in the mil and with our local PD tac team, they can indeed do the job. I just wish they'd shut up about it.
The adage is just as true in LE circles is at is .mil, they real guys that do the most talk the least about it.
This is even more accurate on the Fed level.
Dudes just want to flex in multicam Crye and stroke each other’s phallic shaped egos.
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Have you ever been in a colonial militia?
See, I can ask silly and largely irrelevant questions, too.
Copy. You have no idea what you are talking about. Have a nice day.
Copy. You have no idea what you are talking about. Have a nice day.
So your thesis is that to fully comprehend the constitution one must first be a member of an unconstitutional ersatz militia?
Sorry bro, but your feels don't supersede the highest law of the land. It says what it says, and there are ingenious reasons behind its various quirks, despite any inconveniences they might pose to modern sensibilities.
SeriousStudent
09-25-20, 15:51
Time out. Fighters go to a neutral corner, and await the bell.
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