View Full Version : What Ear Pro and Why.
Yeah, I wish I could have stayed.
Looks lke I wasnt photogenic enough to make it in any pictures.
A few additionl notes:
LAV said he wanted to make Electronic Ear-pro mandatory for upcoming classes.
He said you miss to much with standard ear pro. Sell a kidney, sell a son if you have too, just show up with electronic ear-pro.
ATS staff were friendly and accomadating, realy enhanced the environment.
The facilities were nice, the food was good, the team environment is great, and the price is unbeatable. If you train at Ares, there is no reason to stay anywhere else.
Can't wait to train at Ares again, and am saving pennies for the next time LAV comes this way. I can't reccomend his training enough.
Business_Casual
11-27-08, 15:28
Hey Farva, what's that place you like to eat at - with the mozzarella sticks and all the goofy shit on the walls?
LAV said he wanted to make Electronic Ear-pro mandatory for upcoming classes.
Yes, that is true.
Electronic ear-pro is now a requirement for all 2009 Vickers Tactical classes.
It's a safety issue for everyone in the class.
Yes, that is true.
Electronic ear-pro is now a requirement for all 2009 Vickers Tactical classes.
It's a safety issue for everyone in the class.
I've heard a few instructors make mention of a potential change in their required equipment to include this.
I do get tired of the "huh, what'd he say" from the end of the line.
John_Wayne777
11-27-08, 16:47
I've heard a few instructors make mention of a potential change in their required equipment to include this.
I do get tired of the "huh, what'd he say" from the end of the line.
Maybe I'm strange, but I've never had a problem hearing an instructor even with standard muffs on. I never really needed electronic ear pro to hear anyone talk.
I can understand why instructors would want to make it a requirement, though....
Maybe I'm strange, but I've never had a problem hearing an instructor even with standard muffs on. I never really needed electronic ear pro to hear anyone talk.
I can understand why instructors would want to make it a requirement, though....
I haven't either, but it doesn't stop these people from wearing plugs, insisting on standing on one end or the other, and then complaining the whole time that they can't hear.
Heavy Metal
11-27-08, 18:16
As much as it is to learn, these classes are even moreso to unlearn.
Hopefully, the 'that guy' just needs to take what he was taught and use it to unlearn some of the things that are dogging him.
In many respects, It would benefit Larry and us if we showed up the very first time largely a 'tabula rasa'. Unfortunately, we seldom are. Sometimes this is a good thing but more often it is not.
An example:
How many of us learned bad habits playing with cap pistols growing up?
A cap pistol is nothing more than 'El Snatcho Jr.' for kids.
Correct muscle memory takes time and effort.
I once heard it takes ten times the effort to expunge a bad habit than it does to learn something correctly the first time. I believe it.
RogerinTPA
11-28-08, 00:44
Maybe I'm strange, but I've never had a problem hearing an instructor even with standard muffs on. I never really needed electronic ear pro to hear anyone talk.
I can understand why instructors would want to make it a requirement, though....
You maybe the exception. Their are a few instances were folks can't hear the "beep" or verbal commands, to perform some of the move and shoot drills because of not wearing electronic earpro. I know quite a few folks who wear ear plugs with the conventional head sets and can't hear nada. I think it's a valid request as far as safety is concerned.
Hey Farva, what's that place you like to eat at - with the mozzarella sticks and all the goofy shit on the walls?
uhhh...SHENANIGANS!
Doc b had a lot of problems hearing with his earplugs. It is a safety issue.
I had a pair of wally world earmuffs, and I didn't have any problems hearing instructions, but with electronic ear pro starting under $50, there's no reason not to own a pair.
Derek_Connor
11-29-08, 12:36
While I see the utility and safety in electronic ear pro, is there any set thats under $50 dollars that provides great hearing protection?
The majority of people I have seen wear electronic ear pro still use plugs in their ears.
I dont see the big deal with wearing regular ear plugs/puffs, its not hard to move one muff off of the ear while instructions are being given.
While I see the utility and safety in electronic ear pro, is there any set thats under $50 dollars that provides great hearing protection?
D.C. here you go:
http://www.howardleight.com/family/index/33
You will find them for $40-45 plus shipping. Easy to find on the net. At that price, if they break you can get another pair. A friend of mine bought them on my recomendation and is very happy with them, so far. N.N.R. 22.
16" carbines are metered routinely at 168dB. I suspect that 10" guns, like Dinger and I run, are a little louder.
At electronic ear-pro @ 19 or 22dB reduction is still letting 146-149dB through. I could not have shot our Vickers Mod class with just the Peltor 6S's on...especially with Dinger's 10" HK upper blasting the hell out of me.
I beleive that above 130 decibels is considered harmful. I guess that is why many guys wear plugs inside the electronic muffs. I wear one plug in my bad ear and leave the other without, just to make sure I don't miss any commands.
I dont see the big deal with wearing regular ear plugs/puffs, its not hard to move one muff off of the ear while instructions are being given.
The problem I see is how few do it, or how many times I still hear them say "huh? What's the drill?" afterwards.
I generally won't run more than 10 guys on a line, and I STILL get people that don't hear the range commands and I'm by no means a quiet guy.
Frankly I'd like to see an instructor demand electronic earpro with an input jack and hand out FRS (or make you bring your own) radios.
If wearing plugs works for someone and they're getting all the drills etc. then I don't care what kind of hearing protection they wear. The problem is that most turn into an 80 year old man with plugs in; stone deaf, constantly asking what was said, don't even realize they're doing it, insist on behaving like they can still hear, and denying all of the above and insisting they're fine when confronted.
I wear plugs under my Sordins all the time. Two clicks down from max is equalized to be the same as no hearing protection, so when wearing plugs I turn the volume all the way up. I can still hear the range commands, better than most people without earpro at all, but have double protection.
Jay Cunningham
11-29-08, 15:14
How much does your rifle cost? All the gadgets hanging off of it? The ammo? The class, the lodging, the gas?
But you won't drop the cabbage on quality electronic earpro?
Amazing.
Don Robison
11-29-08, 15:20
I can still hear the range commands, better than most people without earpro at all, but have double protection.
I always thought it worked that way as well, but according the the two audiologists who did my last two hearing waivers double hearing protection only gives you about 7-8% increase in protection. It's still better than muffs by themselves, but not double like many of us non-audiologists think. They explained how it works, but it was too complicated for my knuckle dragger brain.
I always thought it worked that way as well, but according the the two audiologists who did my last two hearing waivers double hearing protection only gives you about 7-8% increase in protection. It's still better than muffs by themselves, but not double like many of us non-audiologists think. They explained how it works, but it was too complicated for my knuckle dragger brain.
I understand all that as pertains to the science of it all in terms of dB and all that stuff, I'm just talking "double" in terms of two sets. Run a shooter with an SBR and a Miculek brake next to a wall or down a corridor with only the muffs and then run the same shooter with the muffs and plugs, and I guarantee you'll view it as "double" too! :D
While I understand that I'm doing it wrong, all I ever really care about is the pain threshold, and if muffs only hurts and muffs with plugs doesn't, I call it good!
Heavy Metal
11-29-08, 15:58
The problem I see is how few do it, or how many times I still hear them say "huh? What's the drill?" afterwards.
I generally won't run more than 10 guys on a line, and I STILL get people that don't hear the range commands and I'm by no means a quiet guy.
Frankly I'd like to see an instructor demand electronic earpro with an input jack and hand out FRS (or make you bring your own) radios.
If wearing plugs works for someone and they're getting all the drills etc. then I don't care what kind of hearing protection they wear. The problem is that most turn into an 80 year old man with plugs in; stone deaf, constantly asking what was said, don't even realize they're doing it, insist on behaving like they can still hear, and denying all of the above and insisting they're fine when confronted.
I wear plugs under my Sordins all the time. Two clicks down from max is equalized to be the same as no hearing protection, so when wearing plugs I turn the volume all the way up. I can still hear the range commands, better than most people without earpro at all, but have double protection.
I say we chip in and get Larry a Bullhorn!
RogerinTPA
11-29-08, 17:56
As we all know, there is a quite a bit of difference in DB's in outdoor shooting, confined area indoor shooting, and a shoot house, which is even more confined. I've been running Howard Leights for over a year on both in & outdoor ranges without additional earplugs and without any discomfort or loss of hearing. I can only imagine that the DB's in confined areas inside a shoot house are tremendously higher (especially with larger caliber rifles being worse) and would cause me to add earplugs to the electronic earpro to prevent hearing loss. IMHO, the HL's are are a good value, are comfortable, provides good protection, inexpensive to replace and work for me. My hearing loss is not detectable on my annual aviation flight physicals. Then again, 23 years of constant exposure to Helo and Airplane noise, and a lifetime of shooting, has helped to degraded my hearing in the very low ranges according to my old army aviation/air force flight physicals. But it's been that way for years....:eek:
I say we chip in and get Larry a Bullhorn!
Finally somebody said it.
I have no idea how much a bullhorn cost, but let's guess at $100, divide that by 14 students, it comes out to $7.14 a piece. A class coordinator can easily figure that into the cost of hosting the class. I may just buy one for the next class that I host.
PS: Found some, price range from $38 to over $250.
http://bullhornmegaphone.com/
($38/14= $2.71)
Heavy Metal
11-29-08, 21:50
The only real danger is Larry would enjoy the Bullhorn too much:D
Matt Edwards
11-29-08, 22:14
I don't know how I ever survived with out E-earpro.
One thing I failed to mention, and many of you are tracking on this;
Larry demos everything. Then when you exacute a drill for score or time, he does it with you.
"Hmmm. I guess no one is left but the L-A-V!
Derek_Connor
11-29-08, 22:32
How much does your rifle cost? All the gadgets hanging off of it? The ammo? The class, the lodging, the gas?
But you won't drop the cabbage on quality electronic earpro?
Amazing.
Its not an issue of $$$. Its an issue of maximum hearing protection for those of us who already have hearing damage, atelast in my case.
If I can find a reliable set of hearing muffs that provide more than enough protection that I do not have to wear plugs underneath I'd grab them and not look back.
Until then, taking my left hand moving my muff of of my left ear works for me, and alot of others who are responsible.
If an instructor cannot trust or enforce a student to listen properly, will a quick gear purchase really fix the end problem at hand?
Sure it will help, but there are other things to iron out..
D.C. here you go:
http://www.howardleight.com/family/index/33
You will find them for $40-45 plus shipping. Easy to find on the net. At that price, if they break you can get another pair. A friend of mine bought them on my recomendation and is very happy with them, so far. N.N.R. 22.
I tried a set of those for a day at a recent class and while they initially seemed nice, I didn't feel they provided enough protection for myself.
And throwing $50 at a problem over and over again is not my idea of doing it right...
Jay Cunningham
11-29-08, 22:39
Dude...
MSA/Sordins.
'nuff said.
Peltors.
Regardless of hearing the instructor explain the drills -- you need to be able to hear anything during times when your armed - thus you need electronic ear pro to help stay situationally aware.
I tried a set of those for a day at a recent class and while they initially seemed nice, I didn't feel they provided enough protection for myself.
And throwing $50 at a problem over and over again is not my idea of doing it right...
You did not ask to do it right the first time. You asked to keep the price under $50 and in life, you get what you pay for. If you are now willing to spend more, then get the M.S.A. Sordin's. You only have one pair of ears.
Peltors.
Regardless of hearing the instructor explain the drills -- you need to be able to hear anything during times when your armed - thus you need electronic ear pro to help stay situationally aware.
And there it is.
You may be interested to know that DOE is beginning to require double(as in 2 sets) 0f ear pro, with a specific DB reduction level(can't remember) for certain weapon systems and conditions, like the shoot house.
DOE, actually monitors this kind of stuff. Noise level, lead particulates, and other atmospheric conditions, and mandates PPE accordingly, for all workers, including the Pro-Force.
With the need for situational awareness, as pointed out by Kevin, the move is to electronics, like Peltors. If your lucky, they'll even plug into your vehicles commo system.
Bob
Derek_Connor
11-30-08, 07:44
Sorry if you took that as my requirement for electronic ear pro, but I was throwing out the #s that were previously mentioned in this thread right before my post by Farva.
$$$ doesn't matter, but like I said previously:
If I can find a reliable set of hearing muffs that provide more than enough protection that I do not have to wear plugs underneath I'd grab them and not look back.
How much noise reduction do the sordins/peltors provide and how do they compare to regular muffs? Ive never bothered to look them up as the people I've seen run them have always worn plugs underneath them..
What is wrong with a set of good-old Peltor 6S's?
Midway has them for as low as $59.99 NIB.
I've been to numerous classes were guys on both ends of the line were constantly asking "What's the drill?", "What did he say?", "I cannot hear a thing". Everyone of them was using ear plugs or non-electronic hearing protection. At some point this has to be considered a safety issue. Especially during movement & use of cover drills. You cannot blame these guys though, everyone of them was a good man and eager to learn. They just did not know about the advantages of modern electronic ear pro. Nervousness also probably plays a part in this. It's all part of the learning process. Until you are exposed to these things 1st hand, how are you supposed to know?
As for the level of protection offered by electric ear pro, I've been using Peltor 6S's, Peltor SwatTac, or ComTac's for the past eight or more years and never considered them inadequate. Even shooting next to 10.5", NJ legal bare muzzle 16" AR's, and slant break AK's. Hell, it would be hard for me not to consider these (Plus Sorbins) to be the Gold standard for hearing protection.
IMO: Sooner or later most professional firearms instructors will also be making them a requirement. Not just for the safety issue either. It's also a class tempo issue. If the instructor has to slow down the class before every drill to walk down the line to insure everybody is on the same page (sometimes numerous times) it dramatically slows down the class. Even cheap electronic ear-pro will help to alleviate the issue entirely making for a safer and faster paced class.
MSA Sordins have an NRR of 18, and Peltor Comtacs have an NRR of 20. Both of these designs are low profile, and other non-electronic low profile muffs have an NRR of about 20 as well.
When you start comparing apples to orangutans, you get into a fullsize non-electronic muff with an NRR of 25-27 vs. the 18-20 of the electronic low-profile. Peltor Tac-7s, an electronic fullsize muff, gives an NRR of 25 which is more inline with a standard size muff.
So, when comparing fullsize to fullsize, or compact to compact, the NRR is almost identical going from non-electronic to electronic.
As a comparison, the old-school orange GI ear plugs (the ones that come with the little insert stiffening tube) offer an NRR of 25. Some custom-molded ear plugs claim an NRR of up to 33. I discount all disposable foam earplug ratings out of hand because so few people insert them correctly to begin with which makes the claimed NRR meaningless.
I can say that when I first switched to the Sordins, I could tell that they were not as effective as my ear plugs alone in terms of noise reduction. I have since gotten used to it for most outdoor shooting events, but I also have a custom fit pair of molded-in latex (I think) plugs that I keep on hand and wear under the Sordins if I'm in a shoot house, running a shooter with a brake, or standing next to a shooter with a brake on the line.
As I said earlier, my only criteria is the pain threshold. You can call me an ear pussy if you want, but shooting next to a guy with a 10.5" gun with a brake on it for three days sucks, and I double up to the plugs and push the volume on the Sordins up two clicks to max.
Jay Cunningham
11-30-08, 09:49
What is wrong with a set of good-old Peltor 6S's
These were the first electronic earpro I ever owned. It didn't take long for me to get a bunch of clipping and static. When I read up on them there were many complaints about the same thing, and about how meticulous the owner had to be about moisture in the cups. Then the whole remove the cups to get to the batteries thing...
Finally one ear died in a pistol class and a guy who actually worked for MSA loaned me a spare pair of his. Holy Crap - as soon as that class was over I threw the Peltors away and bought the MSA/Sordins.
Yes, they're expensive. My situaltional awareness is absolutely phenominal with them - I can hear everything in crystal clarity. The batteries slide right in from the back and the compartment has an O-ring. They are scalloped to allow for a proper cheekweld on a carbine stock.
I love the damn things, some of the best money I've ever spent, and when they go I'll buy another pair.
An no, MSA/Sordin didn't pay me for this endorsement.
Guys - This is a great discussion around ear pro, but I'd suggest we move a number of these posts to a new thread so that we don't diverge too far from this tread's original intent - an AAR of an LAV class. Again - I'm not trying to stomp the discussion, as it is productive - it is just my opnion that a new thread around this topic would better preserve the integrity of the original post.
Split as requested.
I have been issued Sordins and Peltors -- the Comtac II's have held up better for me, so I bought my own set.
My issue is the requirement to get under a helmet, so those specific types I had experience with.
Patrick Aherne
11-30-08, 17:06
Another thing to remember is that those non-electronic, 25-27 db "Magnum"-type hearing protectors offer about 0 db reduction when you try to get a good cheek-weld and the side of the muff pulls away from a good ear seal.
I was at an OIS scene this week where those of us who had the TCI-modded MSA/Sordins could hear, and those who had no hearing protection were yelling and severely less able to communicate. I had no problem distinguishing incoming and outgoing fire.
Electronic hearing protection is mandatory, not a luxury, in my experience.
Has anyone used the Surefire Earpro Sonic Defenders?
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=23976&title=EARPRO%20SONIC%20DEFENDERS
They look interesting, but they have a rather low NRR rating. I guess that is the tradeoff for ear plugs as opposed to muffs.
I say we chip in and get Larry a Bullhorn!
With a crimson trace laser on the handle! :cool:
Has anyone used the Surefire Earpro Sonic Defenders?
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=23976&title=EARPRO%20SONIC%20DEFENDERS
They look interesting, but they have a rather low NRR rating. I guess that is the tradeoff for ear plugs as opposed to muffs.
I wear them exclusively at outdoor pistol matches and like them a lot. I do like to wear muffs over them when shooting a rifle match. As cheap as they are I just bought a pair to try and really came to like them.
My understanding is that they have a some sort of baffle system that works at higher dBs (someone else may have a better understanding of this).
Buckaroo
I was talking to one of our guys last night that had been trying the Surefire plugs and he's gone back to regular plugs. He said the Surefires were pretty useless for him. what turned him off was running a shooter against a wall (otherwise outdoors, other 4 directions open) at an IPSC match.
I haven't used them, just reporting my sample size of one secondhand. :D
Dude...
MSA/Sordins.
'nuff said.
+1, Triad Tactical has the Supreme Pro-X's for $250, I believe you wont find them any cheaper anywhere.
+1, Triad Tactical has the Supreme Pro-X's for $250, I believe you wont find them any cheaper anywhere.
You can order them cheaper ($199) at Botac, but you may never get them:
http://www.botachtactical.com/msasuproearm.html
Call them first to confirm they are in stock is my advice...I have personally had both good & bad experiences, usualy related to stock status.
k_cheerangie
12-03-08, 12:48
I use the Surfire solely, albiet just once a month. I fine that they are more than adequte for my needs they are comfortable enough to wear for hours at a time. I used them in Rob's match and we had a stage that was partially in a hallway and found it was very tolerable. I can hear all the SOs commands and carry on conversations, for $10 in my opinion they cannot be beat.
I use the Surfire solely, albiet just once a month. I fine that they are more than adequte for my needs they are comfortable enough to wear for hours at a time. I used them in Rob's match and we had a stage that was partially in a hallway and found it was very tolerable. I can hear all the SOs commands and carry on conversations, for $10 in my opinion they cannot be beat.
Obviously this is NOT the guy that told me he didn't like them. :D
I have the Surefire Earplugs, from G. & R. Tactical and I use them alone for pistol shooting and for rifle shooting with plugs and muffs and I have found them to be comfortable and effective. They are well worth the price. M.H.O..
I like the Peltor Tac6s and 7s as well as their more advanced stuff
I plan on getting a pair soon to replace my old style muffs.
I was issued a pair that were awesome, made by Peltor but Im not sure which model
I wear ProEars Pro Mag Plus, which I think are now gone and called the Gold. They are a 33 NRR.
k_cheerangie
12-03-08, 20:09
Quote:
Originally Posted by k_cheerangie View Post
I use the Surfire solely, albiet just once a month. I fine that they are more than adequte for my needs they are comfortable enough to wear for hours at a time. I used them in Rob's match and we had a stage that was partially in a hallway and found it was very tolerable. I can hear all the SOs commands and carry on conversations, for $10 in my opinion they cannot be beat.
Obviously this is NOT the guy that told me he didn't like them.
No offense just the 2 pennies.:D
losbronces
12-03-08, 22:59
I like the Sordins (the waterproof model). They don't get interference from cellphones (which I have seen with some others), they work in the rain, they turn off and on with a very positive click and you can wear foam plugs with them (just turn up the volume).
I do get tired of the "huh, what'd he say" from the end of the line.
Next time...don't stand next to me.:D
I can't wear ear muffs, they create an instant and nasty headache.
Electronic earplugs are expensive. Considering the $ that is invested in 1911's and ARs I may just go ahead and buy them. But, I am going to feel stupid with everyone else wearing $40.00 plugs and I'm wearing ear plugs that cost double my first subgun.
:eek:
I have the Surefire Earplugs, from G. & R. Tactical and I use them alone for pistol shooting and for rifle shooting with plugs and muffs and I have found them to be comfortable and effective. They are well worth the price. M.H.O..
Thanks to everyone for the input. For the price, I think that I will throw a pair on my next Brownells order.
I just can't seem to get a good cheek weld with muffs. Maybe my muffs are too big or I just haven't used them enough to get used to them. I use the wax ear plugs from the drug store. I guess I'll look into the electronic ear plugs.
I just can't seem to get a good cheek weld with muffs. Maybe my muffs are too big or I just haven't used them enough to get used to them. I use the wax ear plugs from the drug store. I guess I'll look into the electronic ear plugs.
The (more expensive) "tactical" ear muffs are cut differently so they allow a good cheekweld.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/004-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Magpul%20PMAG%20test/Iraq-Range26May039.jpg
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