View Full Version : PDW??
echofiveniner
09-29-20, 16:56
I am looking at getting a new PDW, my thoughts are the Springfield Armory PDW, anyone have any experience with one ? Any other ideas out there, what are you guys shooting? I already have mid and long range builds, this will strictly be for 0-50; 5.56 only please.
WickedWillis
09-29-20, 17:11
Don't use anything shorter than 10.3 unless you have specific loads for it.
Don't use anything shorter than 10.3 unless you have specific loads for it.
What would those loads be in 5.56? I can't think of one that works well in sub-10" barrels. Now if you're talking close enough that the perp has powder burns, maybe.....
What would those loads be in 5.56? I can't think of one that works well in sub-10" barrels. Now if you're talking close enough that the perp has powder burns, maybe.....No personal experience but I've seen GD 55gr and I believe Hornady 55gr OTM do well in gel tests from 7.5in barrels.
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WickedWillis
09-29-20, 18:13
What would those loads be in 5.56? I can't think of one that works well in sub-10" barrels. Now if you're talking close enough that the perp has powder burns, maybe.....
I was just assuming someone in a basement somewhere had some crazy flechette 556 rounds out of a 7.5" barrel that I had not learned about yet
Just so its been said, below 10" barrel length, 556 starts to get into some pretty negative trade offs, where other calibers do a better job.
There are a handful of specific 556 loads that show good performance below 2000 fps; bulk FMJ will not.
Our 9" PDW (https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-9-OPTIMUM-PDW-Barrel-p110110079) runs nicely, and maintains good velocities up to ~2400 fps, but is quite blasty.
It would be hard to recommend anything shorter that's actually intended to be shot much.
vicious_cb
09-29-20, 18:59
Sub 10" barreled AR's is the realm of .300 blk.
HardToHandle
09-29-20, 19:10
I am looking at getting a new PDW, my thoughts are the Springfield Armory PDW, anyone have any experience with one ? Any other ideas out there, what are you guys shooting? I already have mid and long range builds, this will strictly be for 0-50; 5.56 only please.
To each their own, but I figure there are lots of reasons why 5.56 isn’t successful in the PDW role. NATO came up with the bottlenecked 4.7 & 5.7 cartridges, Knights developed the 6.35 and US Army just selected the 9mm B&T https://soldiersystems.net/2019/04/01/us-army-selects-bt-for-sub-compact-weapon/.
I personally moved to dedicated 9mm platforms for the PDW use - footprint, signature, etc. I made that decision after trying a 7.5” 5.56 upper for a few months, which I determined was a major negative for inside smaller structures and inside vehicles due to the blast. The gun and ammo size were large for concealed PDW use. YMMW, but seemed to be all the wrong compromises for my use.
That said, Springfield has some cool concepts in their Saint line. Not sure I trust their work, but the components might be worth cloning with a slightly longer barrel.
turnburglar
09-29-20, 19:49
I have lots of experience on 10.5 Ar's and my CZ scorpion. I have a little range time behind an 8" AR and I don't think it does anything my 10.5 556 doesn't do better or just grab the 9mm.
FWIW speer Gold Dot has been tested to expand down to 1700 FPS. So that might be a viable load for your headache machine.
I personally moved to dedicated 9mm platforms for the PDW use - footprint, signature, etc.
Which one(s)?
HardToHandle
09-29-20, 22:37
Which one(s)?
Eventually the B&T USW, a 9mm. It is an acquired taste but met my size, safety and other priorities. It is a pricey blend of compromises but also not finicky. That is the present culmination of 15 years of searching of experimenting. I am satisfied for now, except for the present POI shift with a suppressor.
Pistol Forum and Warrior Talk have literally hundreds of pages of PDW discussions. I probably read them all multiple times. To paraphrase, “everyone wants to talk PDW until it comes time to do PDW...” Small guns are problematic for multiple reasons, some human factors, some mechanical.
My opinion and experience is a RDS on a compact or service pistol gets you to 65-75% of a PDW capability. The next big increment is stocks/braces. Lots of options these days for enhancing Glock and P320s as well as some potentially strong platforms like the Rattler.
FWIW, I tried a short barreled 7.62x39 too. Could be brutal with the flash/concussion, had some velocity concerns and just wasn’t optimized for a PDW environment. Still a very viable round, I think moreso than 5.56. Best of luck in the search.
everready73
09-30-20, 08:49
Which one(s)?
Some of the more popular
B&T- Pricey but most refined
CZ Scorpion
Stribog- the A1 version seems good to go. Stickman has a thread in his subforum on it as well. I have seen some videos and posts about the new a3 delayed blowback version having some issues.
PSA AKV 9
9mm AR
My PD is part of a rather large multi jurisdictional SWAT team. They selected the Springfield Armory Saint as their primary AR platform. These have 7.5 inch barrels with a blast can (?) On the barrel. They're absolutely obnoxious. This is a photo I took on an indoor range with one of them. Ammo was Winchester Q3131 55 grain. I would much prefer something with three or four more inches of barrel and a BRT Covert Comp on the end.
https://i.postimg.cc/6qFQqVK4/Screenshot-20200427-200832-2.png (https://postimages.org/)
CharlieDeltaJuliet
09-30-20, 10:26
I agree about usually avoiding sub 10” barrels in 5.56. I run a DD M4PDW (300blk) specifically for that purpose. I also run subs and a Surefire Socom 762 mini2 on it. I don’t have experience with the Springfield PDW but have had great experience with their Saint line. Let us know what you choose and how it works out.
The next big increment is stocks/braces. Lots of options these days for enhancing Glock and P320s as well as some potentially strong platforms like the Rattler.
You mean something like the CAA Micro Roni? Are any of those actually good?
chamber143
09-30-20, 14:01
I know this isnt what you wanna hear but I have an 11 1/2 inch 556 and when it’s not suppressed it is unbelievably loud. I cannot imagine the concussion from anything shorter. To be honest this is really where a 300 Shines. 220 subs and a suppressed 9”inch 300 is ridiculously quiet.
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hotrodder636
09-30-20, 14:15
Is this planned to be full time suppressed? What is the desired role—as in WHY do you need such a short 5.56?
I think many others have already addressed the lack of performance in 5.56 sub 10.3” as well as the insane concussion.
This is why 300 blackout was invented. If you want a sub 10" gun go with 300 blackout.
The confined space where a PDW makes sense is the same confined space I don't want to be firing 5.56 from a short barrel in.
I rather regret not getting on board the Scorpion train before the panic hit.
Andy
My PD is part of a rather large multi jurisdictional SWAT team. They selected the Springfield Armory Saint as their primary AR platform. These have 7.5 inch barrels with a blast can (?) On the barrel. They're absolutely obnoxious. This is a photo I took on an indoor range with one of them. Ammo was Winchester Q3131 55 grain. I would much prefer something with three or four more inches of barrel and a BRT Covert Comp on the end.
https://i.postimg.cc/6qFQqVK4/Screenshot-20200427-200832-2.png (https://postimages.org/)
Teams which are using 7.5" barreled 5.56 weapons have not done their homework and research. It is sinful to allow it, and I would hope that Springfield tried to sway them to another package.
No personal experience but I've seen GD 55gr and I believe Hornady 55gr OTM do well in gel tests from 7.5in barrels.
Please post those results. Real world experiences have shown the 7.5" barrels to be a novelty with no use for departments or others doing Gods work.
Please post those results. Real world experiences have shown the 7.5" barrels to be a novelty with no use for departments or others doing Gods work.Wasn't me. It was a video I found when searching for results. Youtube vid of a guy shooting a 7.5 into gel blocks. If I can find it again I'll post it
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vicious_cb
09-30-20, 16:15
Wasn't me. It was a video I found when searching for results. Youtube vid of a guy shooting a 7.5 into gel blocks. If I can find it again I'll post it
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I know what you are talking about. Poboyspecial's gel test is questionable at best. Other guys like Buffmanrange also shot GDSPs out of 7.5" barrels and could not replicate the velocities.
I know what you are talking about. Poboyspecial's gel test is questionable at best. Other guys like Buffmanrange also shot GDSPs out of 7.5" barrels and could not replicate the velocities.Yes that might have been it. Sounds familiar.
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I would likewise urge the OP to consider a true PDW or 300 BO. The only thing I regret about my CZ Scorpion is not having 5 times more ammo for it than I actually do.
call_me_ski
10-01-20, 00:01
My PD is part of a rather large multi jurisdictional SWAT team. They selected the Springfield Armory Saint as their primary AR platform. These have 7.5 inch barrels with a blast can (?) On the barrel. They're absolutely obnoxious. This is a photo I took on an indoor range with one of them. Ammo was Winchester Q3131 55 grain. I would much prefer something with three or four more inches of barrel and a BRT Covert Comp on the end.
Holy ****. I am so sorry. So many good options and this is what they got? How did they even arrive there? It is not like Springfield has a large LE presence otherwise.
And this is coming from someone who is not dogmatic enough to say that a 7.5in 5.56 has no serious use anywhere. However as a primary rifle of an entry team it is an absolute non starter.
As far as a PDW. I am a big believer is .300 blackout for the role. There are a couple good options. The Sig Rattler is probably the best if size is the absolute biggest consideration. The Noveske PDW might be worth a look. The Q HB has an adjustable gas block so I don’t recommend it for anything outside of being a toy and Instagram model. I have no experience with the Maxim PDX or the DD PDW.
You need to define the mission.
Mission;
short compact vehicle gun, that I might have to pull out if I drive into something bad.
Mission;
short compact shoulder fired weapon that I can fit into a small backpack that will not scream rifle bag for covert carry
Two different missions, which need different tools to solve.
You need to define the mission.
Mission;
short compact vehicle gun, that I might have to pull out if I drive into something bad.
Mission;
short compact shoulder fired weapon that I can fit into a small backpack that will not scream rifle bag for covert carry
Two different missions, which need different tools to solve.
Yes, OP still has to define what he thinks a PDW is. I assume that he’s not equipping a tank or aircraft crew, so what are we talking about here?
Whoever picked that 7.5” for that agency should find another job. Irresponsible.
I have played around with a few things so I will share my experience toying around.
Anything under 10.5" in 5.56 really isn't worth it. Especially if you wind up throwing a flash can on it because you end up at 10.5 anyway. You are also handicapping your ballistics by going shorter.
I will agree that if you want to go that short in a rifle cartridge 300 is the way to go. After trying this out, it still wasn't worth it to me. Mine was a 8.3". It was still very obnoxious unsupressed. Having to keep different ammo around was not worth shaving 2" of size off.
If you want to go 9mm I think you need to figure out if you are going to suppress it. If no suppressor I suggest going around 8". You squeeze a little more juice out of the 9mm that way. It also gives you more room for your support hand and room to mount anything. I found that when running a suppressor on this size gun though some rounds that might otherwise be subsonic might get going just fast enough to go super and crack. Plus the gun starts to get pretty long again. So when running a 9mm suppressed I prefer to be in the 4-5" range. This is a nice small package but does very little extra that a rds equipped pistol doesn't do.
I honestly kind of gave up on the whole idea though because I am honestly not going to be carrying a shoulder fired weapon around with me. And if for some reason I have too I guess my 10.5 with law folder will have to do.
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You need to define the mission.
Mission;
short compact vehicle gun, that I might have to pull out if I drive into something bad.
Mission;
short compact shoulder fired weapon that I can fit into a small backpack that will not scream rifle bag for covert carry
Two different missions, which need different tools to solve.How effective were the micro Galils? Didn't they have something like 8in barrels
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556- black hills 50gr tsx performs well down to 8” barrels
300blk preferred due to reduced pressure and blast/flash out of sub 10” bbls
9mm- if you really need to go small. Something like an mp/tp9 or is a little larger than a pistol. Definitely a niche gun.
echofiveniner
10-01-20, 09:28
After speaking with you guys on here and talking to some of my Marine brothers about this I decided to go with B&T APC9k pro. I am really excited to see what this turns into for me. I had to order the brace so I am waiting on that. What optics would you guys recommend??? What about the light/laser anything out there that is small enough to mount on the side of the K?
I’d use a T2 and a Cloud Defense OWL, personally.
hotrodder636
10-01-20, 10:50
Aimpoint, either T-1 or T-2.
After speaking with you guys on here and talking to some of my Marine brothers about this I decided to go with B&T APC9k pro. I am really excited to see what this turns into for me. I had to order the brace so I am waiting on that. What optics would you guys recommend??? What about the light/laser anything out there that is small enough to mount on the side of the K?
You need to define the mission.
Mission;
short compact vehicle gun, that I might have to pull out if I drive into something bad.
Mission;
short compact shoulder fired weapon that I can fit into a small backpack that will not scream rifle bag for covert carry
Two different missions, which need different tools to solve.
Would you give an example of a solution for each of these missions?
Would you give an example of a solution for each of these missions?
11.5" 556 SBR & a honey badger
How effective were the micro Galils? Didn't they have something like 8in barrels
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I can't think of a unit that used them. The civilian police had some made in .30 cal carbine. But in 5.56 at 3am I can't think of a unit that used them.
I should note that I have never been a Galil fan. Rifle is way to heavy for a 5.56 gun
Would you give an example of a solution for each of these missions?
Sure for a truck gun AR with at least 10.5 barrel or if you want to go bullpup to get longer barrel in short package. Also we must be clear on the mission. Where are you? Will you run into a mob? What has the mob shown they do historically if fired upon. Do they break and run, or are you going to find yourself in a gun fight? The AR is slightly faster to reload, and most people have the muscle memory, can you say the same on a bull pup?
Small weapon for in a backpack. Right now for me that is simple BT TP9. It is very small but offers a 5,5" barrel, light weight and the mag in the handgrip so it is just like reloading a pistol. on mine I have aimpoint also mine is the older model so I mounted a magpul angled front grip that does stick out and provide extra hand protection under the muzzle.
I can't think of a unit that used them. The civilian police had some made in .30 cal carbine. But in 5.56 at 3am I can't think of a unit that used them.
I should note that I have never been a Galil fan. Rifle is way to heavy for a 5.56 gunI have a relative who was issued one. He sent me pics a while ago. As far as I know it was in 556 but I didn't even think there was a 30 carbine version. You see a specific firearm you assume it's chambered in XYZ
Originally he was military border patrol. After getting stabbed he did something in plain clothes and was issued a G19 and a micro Galil.
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I have played around with a few things so I will share my experience toying around.
Anything under 10.5" in 5.56 really isn't worth it. Especially if you wind up throwing a flash can on it because you end up at 10.5 anyway. You are also handicapping your ballistics by going shorter.
I will agree that if you want to go that short in a rifle cartridge 300 is the way to go. After trying this out, it still wasn't worth it to me. Mine was a 8.3". It was still very obnoxious unsupressed. Having to keep different ammo around was not worth shaving 2" of size off.
I put together an 8 inch 7.62x39 AR.
It worked fine the first trip out, then started having problems and I gave up and sold it.
But anyway yes, it was still obnoxious and made big fireballs with the Russian ammo. I put a ventriloquist device on it (I forget the brand of linear compensator) and it helped when firing outside and a little inside.
Later I got a Romy AK with a 10? Inch barrel 7.62x39 and put a linear on that. The pistol worked fine. Muzzleblast was much better and tolerable, except for the flames. The fix for that was Hornady ballistic tip ammo. (V-Max, SST) it had flash-suppressed powder.
So I agree .300 with a 10+ inch barrel is the way to go, especially if you want to suppress it with subs. Or go with a longer 5.56.
If you want really short, 9mm.
I have a relative who was issued one. He sent me pics a while ago. As far as I know it was in 556 but I didn't even think there was a 30 carbine version. You see a specific firearm you assume it's chambered in XYZ
Originally he was military border patrol. After getting stabbed he did something in plain clothes and was issued a G19 and a micro Galil.
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I just called a friend of mine that is a general in MAGAV, which is the acronym for the Border Police.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Border_Police
My friend who has served in a variety of roles and units, firearms instructor, anti terror instructor, YAMAS, and now in command staff. He said MAGAV at one time had some Galion as we called it in Hebrew which is the SBR with a 13.1 " . I remember that in MAGAV, we had some guys with Galion's but they were few and far between.
So I am not sure if your cousin was in MAGAV or an IDF unit that is a unit that sits on borders as the primary duty. Then where he went to plain clothes, who knows. But getting stabbed sounds to me like he was in MAGAV, since that organization has the most contact with Palistinians on a day in and day out basis. It is possible that he was in MAGAV, got stabbed and switched over to a plain cloths unit in the regular police called the blue police as a detective of some kind. I know the blue police had and more than likely still have Mcro Galils in .30 cal carbine.
MAGAV used to have 2 elite units, Israel's most elite anti terror unit YAMAM, then the most elite undercover unit much better than the undercover unit of the IDF YAMAS. But times change now MAGAV has detectives and even traffic units.
My position has always been the business of the IDF should be wars with nation states. MAGAV should take care of the Palestinians, in both anti terror operations, undercover operations and just kicking their ass every day to remind them we are the bosses in our land.
I honestly kind of gave up on the whole idea though because I am honestly not going to be carrying a shoulder fired weapon around with me. And if for some reason I have too I guess my 10.5 with law folder will have to do.
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Good summary--I've been interested in PDW concept the last year and went around and around on this issue, researched options, range-tested .300 AR's (DD) and a couple of 9mm PDWs (CZ, Ruger Charger) that I could access from my rental range and a buddy had the DD. I can see the case for these in some LE/mil situations. For me as a civilian it seemed like more hassle and expense for small if any gain, in the situations I might actually use it. In the end I stuck with my 9mm pistols and standard-length 5.56 rifles.
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