View Full Version : Q honey badger pistol re-classified as a SBR.
1_click_off
10-06-20, 15:12
Email from Q states:
Dear Customer:
On August 3rd, 2020, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) issued Q® a formal Cease & Desist letter, notifying us that ATF has taken the position that the Q Honey Badger Pistol is a short-barreled rifle (“SBR”) regulated under the National Firearms Act (“NFA”). In response, Q has ceased all production of the Honey Badger Pistol, and submitted a comprehensive letter to ATF and the Department of Justice (“DOJ”) stating why we disagree with this classification[1]. Additionally, we have provided recommendations on how to address the firearms already in circulation. Q is seeking solutions that best protect you, the individual, and Q’s distribution network from falling out of compliance with ATF regulations, and federal law. At this time, Q has not received any definitive guidance from the ATF.
In the meantime, Q encourages possessors of the Honey Badger Pistol to take these proactive measures until a resolution is reached between Q and ATF.
Complete one of the following:
Remove the barreled upper receiver from the lower receiver and dedicate it as a replacement
for another AR-style pistol or registered short-barreled rifle; or
If you do not possess another AR-style pistol or registered short-barreled rifle, remove the barreled upper receiver from the lower receiver and temporarily transfer it out of your possession by, for example, transferring it to the dominion and control of another individual; and
Once the previous step is completed, you may file an ATF Form 1 to register the lower receiver as a short-barreled rifle. Upon Form 1 approval, the firearm may be reassembled.
Failure to complete option a or option b could result in prosecution and is subject to a $10,000.00 fine and up to 10 years imprisonment.
If you are concerned with this situation - as Q is - we urge you to contact the Department of Justice (ATF’s parent agency) by using the below OneClickPolitics link.
Interesting. I sort of expect this to happen to all AR pistols.
Interesting. I sort of expect this to happen to all AR pistols.
Yup. Shades of things to come.
Yup. Shades of things to come.
If Harris/Biden get elected expect to see actions like this across the board on many different firearms. Biden says as much on his campaign website.
hotrodder636
10-06-20, 17:47
Wow, hadn’t seen or heard anything about this unit this thread. Sad.
What is it about the Q honey badger pistol that caused it to be reclassified?
WickedWillis
10-06-20, 17:59
What is it about the Q honey badger pistol that caused it to be reclassified?
The special brace
For all those living the brace life, this is a vision of things to come. I would recommend you take one of your braced lowers and get it SBR'ed before Jan 20th preferably by the end of the year.
WickedWillis
10-06-20, 18:55
For all those living the brace life, this is a vision of things to come. I would recommend you take one of your braced lowers and get it SBR'ed before Jan 20th preferably by the end of the year.
No, I don't think I will.
We will probably have some shooting between now and the election involving a brace and that's how they will get banned through executive order or some other dumb shit.
Then we can appease the crown.
EDIT; I believe the sugar weasel was okay because of the SBA3.
For all those living the brace life, this is a vision of things to come. I would recommend you take one of your braced lowers and get it SBR'ed before Jan 20th preferably by the end of the year.
Go the Biden campaign website and look up his gun control plan. ALL AR-15’s and standard capacity magazines will become NFA items if it is up to him. If that happens you may as well take off the brace and slap on the buttstock since you’ll be facing 10 years in the pen either way.
I've thought about Form 1ing my pistol lower, but I have second thoughts about it due to living deep in enemy territory...
Go the Biden campaign website and look up his gun control plan. ALL AR-15’s and standard capacity magazines will become NFA items if it is up to him. If that happens you may as well take off the brace and slap on the buttstock since you’ll be facing 10 years in the pen either way.
At that point, make it a machine gun... penalty is the same.
>Then we can appease the crown.
this guy gets it.
63938
Alaskapopo
10-06-20, 22:18
Go the Biden campaign website and look up his gun control plan. ALL AR-15’s and standard capacity magazines will become NFA items if it is up to him. If that happens you may as well take off the brace and slap on the buttstock since you’ll be facing 10 years in the pen either way.
It doesn't matter so much what the president wants. Trump is a lost cause I would focus on keeping the senate.
Interesting. I sort of expect this to happen to all AR pistols.
Surprised it took this long.
For all those living the brace life, this is a vision of things to come. I would recommend you take one of your braced lowers and get it SBR'ed before Jan 20th preferably by the end of the year.
If Biden wins, after Jan 20th the entire ar-15 will be illegal. Save your $200.
MountainRaven
10-06-20, 23:27
The ATF has also demanded that Q submit samples of the Sugar Weasel (a more traditional DI AR pistol with an SBA3 brace) and the Mini Fix (a bolt action 300 BLK pistol with a custom SB tactical brace).
Things might get a bit sporty if the ATF comes down on the wrong side of this (again).
So millions of people potentially will become felons after Jan 20 2021.
In spite of this, we have many here that don't support Trump.
So I have a question for those against Trump, if you will not vote for Trump over a brain dead piece of corrupt garbage. Then why should anyone think you will fight to keep a free country?
If Harris/Biden get elected expect to see actions like this across the board on many different firearms. Biden says as much on his campaign website.
At that point, make it a machine gun... penalty is the same.
You mean get a bumpstock?
So millions of people potentially will become felons after Jan 20 2021.
In spite of this, we have many here that don't support Trump.
So I have a question for those against Trump, if you will not vote for Trump over a brain dead piece of corrupt garbage. Then why should anyone think you will fight to keep a free country?
Trump has an actual record of taking action against AR15 accessories that attempt to mimic NFA items less $200. Did everybody forget that? I’m not saying Biden is good, just that Trump won’t help you.
SBR it, and if the Dem’s ever gain control, they will know right where to come to **take** it. And they will. IMHO, it might buy you some time short term, but IMHO, in the long run, it is highly probable it will become a fools game.
SBR it, and if the Dem’s ever gain control, they will know right where to come to **take** it. And they will. IMHO, it might buy you some time short term, but IMHO, in the long run SBR ing is a fools game.
Really, like they dont know where your pistol is? Might want to do some research on ATF digitally scanning bound books.
SBR it, and if the Dem’s ever gain control, they will know right where to come to **take** it. And they will. IMHO, it might buy you some time short term, but IMHO, in the long run SBR ing is a fools game.
You really think gov does not know or can’t find out quickly who has guns?
The honey badger brace seems to be very similar to the Maxim brace. I didn't know SB tactical made it. I'd like to know why one is OK and the other is not.
https://i.postimg.cc/xCQD1rDq/HB-PISTOL-RIGHT-OPEN.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/K8hdNSjf/download.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
You really think gov does not know or can’t find out quickly who has guns?
Easy data to get. Acting on that data is the hard part. Finding officers/agents willing to do so will be even harder.
Easy data to get. Acting on that data is the hard part. Finding officers/agents willing to do so will be even harder.
I agree. I always point people towards Paul Howe's excellent article from 2013 when gun confiscation becomes a topic of discussion:
https://soldiersystems.net/2013/03/28/2nd-amendment-and-the-kool-aid-drinkers-by-paul-howe/#comments
No doubt Creepy Joe and President Kamala will do everything they can to destroy the second amendment. But I don't think door-to-door confiscation is ever going to happen
I still have my brand new Q HONEY BADGER sitting here, unfired and lonely. Impulse buy, might have to sell it to fund my 2011 fix...
Easy data to get. Acting on that data is the hard part. Finding officers/agents willing to do so will be even harder.
Oh they'll have no shortage of those, trust me.
That said, the biggest "actionable" problem they're gonna have is deniability. Right now there is no Federal law on the books to prevent you from selling your non-NFA items to anyone, and without record of it. They can wave a stack of 4473's in your face and all you gotta say is "Sorry, no mas. Sold them all." Now they won't believe you, but who friggin' cares? (just don't be stupid enough to actually have something to find if you tell them that, 'cause they'll no doubt be back with a warrant). TONS of shit will be "sold" or "lost". Only idiots with something to find will pay the price. So be smart, sell all your banned items before they come looking. ;)
grizzlyblake
10-07-20, 14:29
That said, the biggest "actionable" problem they're gonna have is deniability. Right now there is no Federal law on the books to prevent you from selling your non-NFA items to anyone, and without record of it. They can wave a stack of 4473's in your face and all you gotta say is "Sorry, no mas. Sold them all." Now they won't believe you, but who friggin' cares? (just don't be stupid enough to actually have something to find if you tell them that, 'cause they'll no doubt be back with a warrant). TONS of shit will be "sold" or "lost". Only idiots with something to find will pay the price. So be smart, sell all your banned items before they come looking. ;)
Yep. Here in GA the buy/sell/trade forum is huge and everybody just meets in parking lots to buy/sell/trade everything. I've sold tons of guns that way over the last ten years, and there's no telling where they are now. Completely legal. Lots of those were new purchases where I did the 4473 then later sold it privately for cash. There's no way to track any of it that's not NFA.
Now, regarding the braces being reclassified. Is anyone surprised? Like, does anyone with half a functioning brain think all these braced AR pistols that have been sold for the last few years are being sold to paraplegics that can't hold a pistol correctly or whatever?
Everybody knows it's simply a loophole in the system that allows SBRs to be owned without NFA paperwork.
I think the whole barrel length limit is ridiculous and there should not be any NFA classification for such.
However, people being "outraged" and all about this are silly, and the ATF closing the loophole is hardly surprising. Really, I'm surprised it's been allowed to go on this long.
Oh they'll have no shortage of those, trust me.
That said, the biggest "actionable" problem they're gonna have is deniability. Right now there is no Federal law on the books to prevent you from selling your non-NFA items to anyone, and without record of it. They can wave a stack of 4473's in your face and all you gotta say is "Sorry, no mas. Sold them all." Now they won't believe you, but who friggin' cares? (just don't be stupid enough to actually have something to find if you tell them that, 'cause they'll no doubt be back with a warrant). TONS of shit will be "sold" or "lost". Only idiots with something to find will pay the price. So be smart, sell all your banned items before they come looking. ;)
If we get there, no one is doing anything and everyone is turning in their guns its an end game anyways. Line up for the trains.
https://i.imgur.com/j2nzNKD.jpg
We don't need to agree on the encroachment. We just need to agree on the tipping point.
Interesting - Q posted on IG saying if you Form 1 your pistol they will reimburse you the $200 for stamp.
Wouldn't ATF had to have originally approved the HB and/or their brace to be considered a pistol...I assumed all other pistol braces were ATF approved??
If we get there, no one is doing anything and everyone is turning in their guns its an end game anyways. Line up for the trains.
By all means, you go first.
You speak for yourself and yourself only.
By all means, you go first.
You speak for yourself and yourself only.
Meaning what? You want to line up? WTF
Meaning what? You want to line up? WTF
Meaning you don't know WTF you're talking about with regards to other people. You wanna hand your shit in and get on the train, I hope they have a first-class seat for ya. THAT'S what I mean. Clear enough?
Meaning you don't know WTF you're talking about with regards to other people. You wanna hand your shit in and get on the train, I hope they have a first-class seat for ya. THAT'S what I mean. Clear enough?
You should reread what I wrote. You seriously believe thats what im talking about??? Wow.
So you think I'm on a gun forum telling people they should hand in their guns and get on a train to the camps or do you think maybe you misunderstood what was written along with the post it references?
You should reread what I wrote. You seriously believe thats what im talking about??? Wow.
So you think I'm on a gun forum telling people they should hand in their guns and get on a train to the camps or do you think maybe you misunderstood what was written along with the post it references?
Let me quote to refresh your memory: "If we get there, no one is doing anything and everyone is turning in their guns....."
So what did I miss?
Let me quote to refresh your memory: "If we get there, no one is doing anything and everyone is turning in their guns....."
So what did I miss?
I agree with your original post that I quoted. If the AFT is waiving 4473s in your face, you should say you sold them BUT if we have not revolted yet when we get there we have a problem.
If they are coming for our guns, and no one is fighting back, then we are f%#ked and it's time to line up for the trains - just like the old saying if it's time to bury your guns, it's time to dig them up.
1_click_off
10-07-20, 17:00
Back on topic. If this lower was sold as a pistol, wouldn’t the configuration of the brace be the issue of it getting re-classified. Could folks not simply remove the brace for the time being? Wonder why Q is going full out saying to Form 1 it and split it until it is approved as a SBR or ATF decides it is a pistol configuration?
63955
Not sure if this PDF was posted already.
Giffords 9 items they are going after.
You really think gov does not know or can’t find out quickly who has guns?
The pragmatic answer is everyone. What's the $ cost to try and take back 300+ million guns from 100+ million households. The US can't fix aging infrastructure or get together on any kind of fix for problems stemming from the past 40 years where each side blames the other. Not a chance anyone is coming to take anything from anyone......Ever. No money no will no nothing. Just more fear mongering.
The biggest threat to gun ownership is gun owners plain and simple. The panic buying and empty shelves are gun owners acting on fear. Most stupid ATF letters are responses to gun owner letters to clarify unclear rules meant to be unclear for a reason....Their stupid and undefendable.
WickedWillis
10-07-20, 18:35
63955
Not sure if this PDF was posted already.
Giffords 9 items they are going after.
Good read, and thank you for posting that.
NothingBurger
10-07-20, 19:00
This is probably a dumb question, but I assume caliber wouldn’t matter if the NWO started rounding up weapons? For example, if someone I know has a 9mm AR pistol with a brace that is currently legal, it would be confiscated right alongside the 5.56 pistols, right?
Asking for a friend...
NothingBurger
10-07-20, 19:09
63955
Not sure if this PDF was posted already.
Giffords 9 items they are going after.
Whack jobs. Thanks for sharing!
That pretty much tells me caliber doesn’t matter (my previous question.)
From Michael Bane
Kids...regarding the ATF "hit" on the Q Honey Badger, I am posting Duane Liptak's (Exec VP at MagPul) response to one of my comments because we need all of you to KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL!
I am more and more convinced that what we are seeing with the ATF reclassification of the Honey Badger pistol (one one other gun I'm not at liberty to discuss) to SBR status is a political stroke by Obama/Eric Holder leftovers, all virulently anti-Trump, to split the gun vote this close to the election.
Ditto on the IRS opening an investigation of Wayne Lapierrethis close to the election.
This is an attack on us, bettiing that we're stupid enough to take the bait and go howling into a circular firing squad.
If I might suggest a strategy: HOLD FAST!
DUANE WROTE:
"This is 100% the work of the holdovers, timed way too conveniently. Jo Jorgensen makes big anti-ATF claims but loses luster when she’s a little too cozy with BLM and taking money from big dem organizations, so then ATF Chief counsel has the Boston SAC send out a C&D on a braced product less than a month before the election to try again to split the gun vote. The NRA/ILA has been fighting the reversal or reinterpretation of braces for the last several years. I’ve been part of it. Posting anti-NRA, anti-Trump BS does NOTHING but help elect the candidate that has openly promised to pass an AWB, mag ban, end online ammo sales, etc., AND will help to lose the Senate so that there is a real path for them to do it—and that will end the judicial reform that we’ve been able to accomplish under Trump with a R senate."
Interesting. I sort of expect this to happen to all AR pistols.
Yup. Shades of things to come.
Yeah, and Biden hasn't even won the election yet. Believe me the Feds will waste no time screwing us all with Biden in office. After all, he'll have a MANDATE from the election, and Beto to help....
Just kidding about Beto, but the left is fired up about AW bans and confiscation. Heed the warning signs.
Creator of Honey Badger talks ATF's Arbitrary Determination on Honey Badger Pistol!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuNvgFfrcAI
MountainRaven
10-07-20, 22:15
Donald Trump or his appointees in the ATF could reverse this decision tomorrow. While Colion's interviews with SB Tactical and Q make me feel cautiously optimistic, I won't hold my breath waiting for it to be reversed tomorrow. Or next week. Or next month. Or any time before Donald Trump leaves the White House.
This is probably a dumb question, but I assume caliber wouldn’t matter if the NWO started rounding up weapons? For example, if someone I know has a 9mm AR pistol with a brace that is currently legal, it would be confiscated right alongside the 5.56 pistols, right?
Asking for a friend...
Send the ATF a letter asking them about it.
:jester:
WillieThom
10-08-20, 01:32
The biggest threat to gun ownership is gun owners plain and simple. The panic buying and empty shelves are gun owners acting on fear. Most stupid ATF letters are responses to gun owner letters to clarify unclear rules meant to be unclear for a reason....Their stupid and undefendable.
Yet another example of a threat to gun ownership coming from gun owners is dry-snitching on manufacturers via open forums like m4carbine.net...
I just imagine that if Maxim Defense wasn’t on ATF’s radar they sure is shit are now!! :jester::jester:
The honey badger brace seems to be very similar to the Maxim brace. I didn't know SB tactical made it. I'd like to know why one is OK and the other is not.
https://i.postimg.cc/xCQD1rDq/HB-PISTOL-RIGHT-OPEN.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/K8hdNSjf/download.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Oh they'll have no shortage of those, trust me.
That said, the biggest "actionable" problem they're gonna have is deniability. Right now there is no Federal law on the books to prevent you from selling your non-NFA items to anyone, and without record of it. They can wave a stack of 4473's in your face and all you gotta say is "Sorry, no mas. Sold them all." Now they won't believe you, but who friggin' cares? (just don't be stupid enough to actually have something to find if you tell them that, 'cause they'll no doubt be back with a warrant). TONS of shit will be "sold" or "lost". Only idiots with something to find will pay the price. So be smart, sell all your banned items before they come looking. ;)
I hear ya, I've never met one and been around a lot of local/fed LE through work, training, etc. But I'm sure they're out there. Either way, the alarmist confiscation hypotheticals have been around forever. I don't see it happening.
Haha and yes agree.
Now, regarding the braces being reclassified. Is anyone surprised? Like, does anyone with half a functioning brain think all these braced AR pistols that have been sold for the last few years are being sold to paraplegics that can't hold a pistol correctly or whatever?
Everybody knows it's simply a loophole in the system that allows SBRs to be owned without NFA paperwork.
I think the whole barrel length limit is ridiculous and there should not be any NFA classification for such.
However, people being "outraged" and all about this are silly, and the ATF closing the loophole is hardly surprising. Really, I'm surprised it's been allowed to go on this long.
If Q wouldn't market those damn things as SBRs we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
True story, but guess what (attacking ATF not you)...when stupid effing laws are enacted...people exploit the loopholes.
63955
Not sure if this PDF was posted already.
Giffords 9 items they are going after.
Jesus "armor piercing pistols" making no attempt to address the specific ammunition that is AP. Lord these people have no idea what they're talking about.
Kevin has been in the NFA game for a VERY long time. During that time he has probably made some enemies at the ATF. This whole thing, the more I learn, smells bad. I completely agree with Duane Liptak's assessment that this is a holdover from the previous administration that is trying to start some crap before an election.
Excellent synopsys:
https://youtu.be/eaGKe6JdyY8
Most people told me this would never happen.
What the ATF really wants is to ban the sale and importation of rifles made as pistols. Of course several people on here tell me that won't happen either.
Most people told me this would never happen.
What the ATF really wants is to ban the sale and importation of rifles made as pistols. Of course several people on here tell me that won't happen either.
And Bingo Was His Name-O
I hear ya, I've never met one and been around a lot of local/fed LE through work, training, etc. But I'm sure they're out there. Either way, the alarmist confiscation hypotheticals have been around forever. I don't see it happening.
.
.
.
Jesus "armor piercing pistols" making no attempt to address the specific ammunition that is AP. Lord these people have no idea what they're talking about.
It would be amusing, if not so alarming that people on several forums assume confiscation will not happen, because its never happened before.
If you review the number of things that have happened in the last four years that have never happened before, including a presidential candidate endorsing, "Hell yes! Were going to take away your AR15s", you might want to think harder about that kind of statement.
Gun rights are more imperiled this election than ever before. We need to stop the head in the sand crap and understand that the people around Biden are NOT moderates. If Biden wins he will have a MANDATE, because he is running on gun control.
Biden will be beholden to Bloomberg and other un-American gun control lunatics that helped fund and run ads for his campaign. Bloomberg is spending $100,000,000.00 in Florida alone.
Realize, that they don't have to come door to door to effectively take away your firearms. There are a million ways to attack firearm ownership and purchase. Simply making firearms manufacturer liable for the use of their weapons will either bankrupt the gun makers or make guns so expensive that nobody will be able to afford them. Ammunition can be regulated out of existence, or taxed to death. Firearm parts and repair can be regulated. FFLs can be regulated out of existence or made liable for the firearms they sell. California has successfully put in place a micro-stamp regulation that will eventually eliminate most handguns. They've regulated the configuration of firearms and the ability to hand them down to your kids. They've focused NOT on the criminal, but eliminating the firearms owner.
Some of the most radical proposals include; Complete one-time gun registration of everything you own. Then if you are caught with an unregistered gun you become a felon. Or they can simply put a tax on every gun you own.
If they can achieve registration, they don't even need to come to your door. They can simply say turn them in, or get a massive tax bill.
If you don't understand how radical these people are, you are missing the real story.
It's time for the states to tell the federal government where they can stick the NFA. If everyone can have their state legal marijuana-and now magic mushrooms-then for crying out loud we can have state legal SBRs, suppressors and MGs.
Also time for sheriffs to declare sanctuary counties and tell the ATF they're not welcome, and will be arrested if they set foot there to conduct any illegal paramilitary operations against the citizens of said counties.
Enough is enough.
WickedWillis
10-08-20, 12:04
It's time for the states to tell the federal government where they can stick the NFA. If everyone can have their state legal marijuana-and now magic mushrooms-then for crying out loud we can have state legal SBRs, suppressors and MGs.
Also time for sheriffs to declare sanctuary counties and tell the ATF they're not welcome, and will be arrested if they set foot there to conduct any illegal paramilitary operations against the citizens of said counties.
Enough is enough.
Why not all of the above?
WickedWillis
10-08-20, 12:05
double
Why not all of the above?
I like the way you think.
Why not all of the above?
Yessir
Well if you've read Biden's "Gun Safety Plan, all AW type weapons would be NFA anyway.
https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/
Regulate possession of existing assault weapons under the National Firearms Act. Currently, the National Firearms Act requires individuals possessing machine-guns, silencers, and short-barreled rifles to undergo a background check and register those weapons with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Due to these requirements, such weapons are rarely used in crimes. As president, Biden will pursue legislation to regulate possession of existing assault weapons under the National Firearms Act.
If it takes 6 months to a year for NFA item approval now, what would adding just every AR in the Nation to NFA status do to that time frame?
Aaaaand this is yet another reason I got out of the brace game.
The ATF is a rogue agency that can change their mind at will, and it will be enforceable. Today legal, tomorrow not; the rest of the government/legislative process not required.
63955
Not sure if this PDF was posted already.
Giffords 9 items they are going after.
Guffaw. They're still jonesing after .50 cals like it's the 90s. Almost makes me want to buy one.
You know, I remember when she almost got domed, I called it that she'd be back to do some hardcore stumping for the anti-2A sorts. I was promptly mocked and belittled by fellow gun owners because of her previous (then current) moderate stance on guns.
Now people can't seem to remember when there wasn't a Giffords anti-2a organization.
You also gotta love Bloomberg literally pissing money into the wind. How much has that guy spent so far between his abortion of a political campaign and constantly shelling out money to anti-2A initiatives in various states? I mean, we're talking life-changing quantities of money if divided up and spread around to people/orgs that could actually use it, you know...if they cared about saving lives and all. But there is only The Cause. Just like BLM and the rest.
We seem to be nearing Show Time.
Creator of Honey Badger talks ATF's Arbitrary Determination on Honey Badger Pistol!
I watched the video, besides the ATF just being stupid. The huge take away from the video was what the guys 16 year old son asked his father. "Please don't make our home into Ruby Ridge or Waco" or words to that effect.
When American children live in fear of the American government, we need no more evidence of how broken the country is.
If the ATF determines that braces as a whole constitute stocks, then removing them and running a tube is fine, right? That's what AR pistols were before braces came along.
Andy
If the ATF determines that braces as a whole constitute stocks, then removing them and running a tube is fine, right? That's what AR pistols were before braces came along.
Andy
Well, it depends what day of the week it is. Because technically you could shoulder the tube.....
Well, it depends what day of the week it is. Because technically you could shoulder the tube.....
I imagine that's ultimately where they're going with this. They'll pull out the whole "shouldering it redesigns it" routine.
I don't doubt that part of this is financially motivated. The ATF has no doubt seen the moneymaking potential that inflation has unlocked for them, and if there's one thing the mafia doesn't like it's competition. What these brace manufacturers are doing is akin to dealing dope on someone else's turf. It's like it's 1980 and the ATF is dealing coke, then some punk shows up and starts slinging crack on their corner. Long story short, he's gotta go.
I imagine that's ultimately where they're going with this. They'll pull out the whole "shouldering it redesigns it" routine.
I don't doubt that part of this is financially motivated. The ATF has no doubt seen the moneymaking potential that inflation has unlocked for them, and if there's one thing the mafia doesn't like it's competition. What these brace manufacturers are doing is akin to dealing dope on someone else's turf. It's like it's 1980 and the ATF is dealing coke, then some punk shows up and starts slinging crack on their corner. Long story short, he's gotta go.
I read an analysis several years ago that for every person employed in government regulatory agencies nine people are put out of work in the private sector. I wish I could remember the source but it was several years back that I read that.
Evel Baldgui
10-09-20, 10:03
I agree. I always point people towards Paul Howe's excellent article from 2013 when gun confiscation becomes a topic of discussion:
https://soldiersystems.net/2013/03/28/2nd-amendment-and-the-kool-aid-drinkers-by-paul-howe/#comments
No doubt Creepy Joe and President Kamala will do everything they can to destroy the second amendment. But I don't think door-to-door confiscation is ever going to
happen
And rioting in Seattle Portland, and other cities with the police standing down would never happen. Citizens would never abide by a forced quarantine, or close their business, or wear obligatory masks, a Chicom pandemic, nah, that would not happen.
With all due respect to the article by Mr. Howe, I do believe he is in error in thinking that LE or .MIL would not enforce any order, constitutional or not; a small percentage might , maybe 1%-2% at most. As I've stated before, LE personal will not forfeit their salary /jobs in the name of citizens rights. They will do their jobs.
And rioting in Seattle Portland, and other cities with the police standing down would never happen. Citizens would never abide by a forced quarantine, or close their business, or wear obligatory masks, a Chicom pandemic, nah, that would not happen.
With all due respect to the article by Mr. Howe, I do believe he is in error in thinking that LE or .MIL would not enforce any order, constitutional or not; a small percentage might , maybe 1%-2% at most. As I've stated before, LE personal will not forfeit their salary /jobs in the name of citizens rights. They will do their jobs.
We will have to respectfully disagree. You're not going to get law enforcement or active duty military to engage in forcible gun confiscation.
I've been a cop for a long time. I'm not doing it. Nor will any of the cops I know.
Even if 1 or 2% of law enforcement officers were willing to commit armed home invasions and homicide they would have a tough time getting it done. Most departments in this country have fewer than 50 officers. 2% of the officers in my department wouldn't give you enough guys to direct traffic on a busy street. Taking 2% of officers from all departments and forming some type of multi-jurisdictional gun confiscation unit would never happen when 98% are opposed to the idea.
A New Zealand style gun ban is entirely possible. We need to vote accordingly
We will have to respectfully disagree. You're not going to get law enforcement or active duty military to engage in forcible gun confiscation.
I've been a cop for a long time. I'm not doing it. Nor will any of the cops I know.
Even if 1 or 2% of law enforcement officers were willing to commit armed home invasions and homicide they would have a tough time getting it done. Most departments in this country have fewer than 50 officers. 2% of the officers in my department wouldn't give you enough guys to direct traffic on a busy street. Taking 2% of officers from all departments and forming some type of multi-jurisdictional gun confiscation unit would never happen when 98% are opposed to the idea.
A New Zealand style gun ban is entirely possible. We need to vote accordingly
I don’t see outright confiscation but I do see legislation or executive orders that will create an instant 100 million felons out of once law abiding citizens. Then it becomes ancillary enforcement. Neighbor calls to report you for loud music, get pulled over for speeding, your ex reports you for harassment, etc... and a gun or evidence of one is seen and now you are facing felony charges. Buying ammo for possible banned guns, needing a new BCG, etc... will contribute to suspicion of owning scary guns and suddenly you get served a warrant at 0300.
I don’t see outright confiscation but I do see legislation or executive orders that will create an instant 100 million felons out of once law abiding citizens. Then it becomes ancillary enforcement. Neighbor calls to report you for loud music, get pulled over for speeding, your ex reports you for harassment, etc... and a gun or evidence of one is seen and now you are facing felony charges. Buying ammo for possible banned guns, needing a new BCG, etc... will contribute to suspicion of owning scary guns and suddenly you get served a warrant at 0300.
I agree. This is much more plausible. the ATF needs to stop acting like a legislative body. We need to get people in the White House that actually understand and respect our constitution. I'm very worried about a Biden/Harris administration
I got scared and threw my AR pistol off a Tennessee River bridge.
We will have to respectfully disagree. You're not going to get law enforcement or active duty military to engage in forcible gun confiscation.
I've been a cop for a long time. I'm not doing it. Nor will any of the cops I know.
Even if 1 or 2% of law enforcement officers were willing to commit armed home invasions and homicide they would have a tough time getting it done. Most departments in this country have fewer than 50 officers. 2% of the officers in my department wouldn't give you enough guys to direct traffic on a busy street. Taking 2% of officers from all departments and forming some type of multi-jurisdictional gun confiscation unit would never happen when 98% are opposed to the idea.
A New Zealand style gun ban is entirely possible. We need to vote accordingly
Multiple real life examples say you're wrong. Use the words emergency, red flag, etc. and they'll do anything with glee, up to and including brutalizing a little old lady for no reason whatsoever. And not a single one of them will say a word about it, and not one single politician, judge, prosecutor, or media person will hold them accountable. For crying out loud, it's like you're living in some alternate universe. Read the handwriting on the wall. They have, and they will, period, end of story.
ETA: This isn't just historical fact, either. It's an ironclad scientific theory. Google the Milgram Experiment. Basically it substantiated and explained the flaws of the Stanford prison experiment. Then it was itself further proven by Sheridan and King.
If the vast majority of people will follow orders to torture under non binding conditions, just imagine what they'll do when refusing those orders would have real and perhaps even dire consequences. Loss of job and income, for certain, and maybe much, much worse. And you honestly think they won't take away your pew pew toys if ordered to do so? It would be wildly delusional to think for even a moment that they wouldn't.
Well, I just got a brand-new AR pistol. So there I was, sitting on the TN River in my boat trying to catch dinner under a bridge. When out of nowhere this pistol fell out of the sky right into my boat. I am going back there tomorrow to see what else I get.
Here’s my uninformed alternate take.
I watched the interview with the owner of Q and he clearly said he got busted because the brace was too long! OK... BATFE measured it “wrong” to make it too long which leads me to believe Q somehow ruffled the feathers of some sensitive BATFE during the prolonged presence they recently had there. Probably something of little consequence Q is unaware of but ruffled the precious feathers of some junior G-man who cried to daddy.
They aren’t banning the brace but the length. Q ran it out too danged close! I just checked my DDM4 Pistol with an SOB and it comes out, on the diagonal as long as you can possibly measure it, to 13”. Q pushed the envelope too far and stepped on the wrong toes….Maybe… Q knows better than me I'm sure but I was under the impression 13" is max for a pistol brace length measured from the trigger....taking it right to 13.5 if that's it is begging for problems!
BATFE are cops and their power derives from interpreting laws. As with any LEO you don’t push the envelope and give any opportunity to scrutinize or take facts out of context. Perhaps it’s not as clearly spelled out how to measure it….or at least that seems to be the excuse…
While I have no proof to back any of this up I think it’s certainly as likely as the political conspiracy theories others have been postulated.
I’m going with this instead of imagining a huge attack on 2A .....for now….
Here’s my uninformed alternate take.
I watched the interview with the owner of Q and he clearly said he got busted because the brace was too long! OK... BATFE measured it “wrong” to make it too long which leads me to believe Q somehow ruffled the feathers of some sensitive BATFE during the prolonged presence they recently had there. Probably something of little consequence Q is unaware of but ruffled the precious feathers of some junior G-man who cried to daddy.
They aren’t banning the brace but the length. Q ran it out too danged close! I just checked my DDM4 Pistol with an SOB and it comes out, on the diagonal as long as you can possibly measure it, to 13”. Q pushed the envelope too far and stepped on the wrong toes….Maybe… Q knows better than me I'm sure but I was under the impression 13" is max for a pistol brace length measured from the trigger....taking it right to 13.5 if that's it is begging for problems!
BATFE are cops and their power derives from interpreting laws. As with any LEO you don’t push the envelope and give any opportunity to scrutinize or take facts out of context. Perhaps it’s not as clearly spelled out how to measure it….or at least that seems to be the excuse…
While I have no proof to back any of this up I think it’s certainly as likely as the political conspiracy theories others have been postulated.
I’m going with this instead of imagining a huge attack on 2A .....for now….Is this 13.5" requirement actually listed anywhere??
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Well, I just got a brand-new AR pistol. So there I was, sitting on the TN River in my boat trying to catch dinner under a bridge. When out of nowhere this pistol fell out of the sky right into my boat. I am going back there tomorrow to see what else I get.
Jeez, man I am glad I didn't bean you. I will look down next time.
Andy
MountainRaven
10-09-20, 20:30
Has Trump or any of his appointees at the ATF reversed this decision and/or fired the agent responsible for it, yet?
No? Didn't think so.
Has Trump or any of his appointees at the ATF reversed this decision and/or fired the agent responsible for it, yet?
No? Didn't think so.
Be serious... would a situation like this be pushed up through the ranks to get to the President? With all the election, COVID, peaceful protests... not to mention running a country.
The original letter was sent to Q in August. Having such a late “uprising” doesn’t mean the situation is known by all agency heads or even the President. Even the news breaking to us has only been two or three days.
MountainRaven
10-09-20, 21:55
Be serious... would a situation like this be pushed up through the ranks to get to the President? With all the election, COVID, peaceful protests... not to mention running a country.
The original letter was sent to Q in August. Having such a late “uprising” doesn’t mean the situation is known by all agency heads or even the President. Even the news breaking to us has only been two or three days.
So Trump doesn't have any appointees at the ATF who outrank the agent responsible for this decision?
So Trump doesn't have any appointees at the ATF who outrank the agent responsible for this decision?
No idea... but judging how a Federal agency functions, I’d say give it some more time.
You know how the northern US border is closed for non-essential travel? Since April, the time has been extended by one month... each and every month. People on the ground (speaking from first hand knowledge with CBP) aren’t told of an extension until maybe 2 to 4 days before. Has not changed in all these months. Canadian and US citizens know about it prior to us when they call asking about it... even the news gets it out at least a week earlier.
To think that people above that agent’s direct supervisor, or maybe their second-line, are fully briefed on it... is definitely giving the Federal government way too much credit.
brushy bill
10-09-20, 22:25
So Trump doesn't have any appointees at the ATF who outrank the agent responsible for this decision?
No. No Republican will ever do anything to roll back gun control. This is a rigged game. They have had multiple opportunities and zero forward action. They think we accept the absence of more restrictions as progress and maybe will accept a few additional restrictions (bump stocks that no one owned). If they roll back the immediate threat there is less urgency to vote for them. Of course the Democrats are essentially an ever present threat of communist destruction and oppression, but the Republicans aren't winning us anything much other than delay of the inevitable.
Be serious... would a situation like this be pushed up through the ranks to get to the President? With all the election, COVID, peaceful protests... not to mention running a country.
The original letter was sent to Q in August. Having such a late “uprising” doesn’t mean the situation is known by all agency heads or even the President. Even the news breaking to us has only been two or three days.
Well he sure didn't have any trouble finding the time to screw us on bumpstocks.😶
Be serious... would a situation like this be pushed up through the ranks to get to the President? With all the election, COVID, peaceful protests... not to mention running a country.
The original letter was sent to Q in August. Having such a late “uprising” doesn’t mean the situation is known by all agency heads or even the President. Even the news breaking to us has only been two or three days.
Yeah, make excuses for..... the President of the United States. As if he’s your kid with a late assignment at school.
Well he sure didn't have any trouble finding the time to screw us on bumpstocks.[emoji55]
Yeah, make excuses for..... the President of the United States. As if he’s your kid with a late assignment at school.
If you actually read my posts, you’ll noticed I didn’t say, “Trump is going to fix this.” Trump is one of those people who will either do the complete opposite that what is thought, or go in the direction that nobody considered. Lesser of a chance, he might do what people expect. Personally, I feel you have a better chance of him falling on our side due to the election... but hey, I don’t go around predicting the future.
All I pointed out was thinking that the government would respond to something along these lines, IN FOUR DAYS SINCE IT BECAME PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, is borderline delusional. The Federal government does not work that fast, nor is it micromanaged to the point that the President is briefed on every small thing that occurs (might not be small in our eyes, but consider actually running a country... it is). And even if it did, very likely that Agent who wrote that letter is protected by a union, who is obligated to fight for them.
Whatever the case, go try your hand with Biden. We all know where that would land. [emoji106]
If you actually read my posts, you’ll noticed I didn’t say, “Trump is going to fix this.” Trump is one of those people who will either do the complete opposite that what is thought, or go in the direction that nobody considered. Lesser of a chance, he might do what people expect. Personally, I feel you have a better chance of him falling on our side due to the election... but hey, I don’t go around predicting the future.
All I pointed out was thinking that the government would respond to something along these lines, IN FOUR DAYS SINCE IT BECAME PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, is borderline delusional. The Federal government does not work that fast, nor is it micromanaged to the point that the President is briefed on every small thing that occurs (might not be small in our eyes, but consider actually running a country... it is). And even if it did, very likely that Agent who wrote that letter is protected by a union, who is obligated to fight for them.
Whatever the case, go try your hand with Biden. We all know where that would land. [emoji106]
The sad truth is that 99.9% of people who even know about this issue will vote for Trump no matter what, because he's not Joe. And even if he did somehow manage to piss us off enough not to vote, we're too few in number to even matter. We're like a bug on the fed's windshield.
The sad truth is that 99.9% of people who even know about this issue will vote for Trump no matter what, because he's not Joe. And even if he did somehow manage to piss us off enough not to vote, we're too few in number to even matter. We're like a bug on the fed's windshield.
Similar boat for the past 12 years... except someone said some unknown “Change” in there for 2/3s of the time.
It’s sad, but I doubt we will see someone in the 2024 lineup that will make any difference, either. Us verses them will continue until there are viable third (or fourth) parties to more define the broken two. But neither here nor there...
I don’t see outright confiscation but I do see legislation or executive orders that will create an instant 100 million felons out of once law abiding citizens. Then it becomes ancillary enforcement. Neighbor calls to report you for loud music, get pulled over for speeding, your ex reports you for harassment, etc... and a gun or evidence of one is seen and now you are facing felony charges. Buying ammo for possible banned guns, needing a new BCG, etc... will contribute to suspicion of owning scary guns and suddenly you get served a warrant at 0300.
...and people stop using them for fear of getting caught. Then, in a generation or two, a descendant sees no reason to keep illegal weapons he's never used. He calls the authorities when he inherits them, and sleeps easy at night. Slowly killing the culture is the insidious aspect of banning without confiscation.
Wow!
You really expect Trump or anyone in authority with a few other pressing matters to come to the aid of a legal wobbler?
It'll have to run its course. Learn how the American legal system works. It's VERY rare for a politician to chime in on a case when just a complaint is filed. Look at Kyle Rittenhouse where the Gov says he'll pardon him IF convicted. He cant step in and halt the prosecution...maybe he could but it's a very bad precedent! We don't want single people stepping in to change the course of law.
Meanwhile read this case with a private builder who prevailed in the SAME complaint about BATFE measuring length of pull wrong!
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/
This should be a legal precedent since it's the SAME complaint! Usually these are slam dunks for the defense. Hence we have every reason to believe BATFE will fail again in the long run and Q should prevail.
Similar boat for the past 12 years... except someone said some unknown “Change” in there for 2/3s of the time.
It’s sad, but I doubt we will see someone in the 2024 lineup that will make any difference, either. Us verses them will continue until there are viable third (or fourth) parties to more define the broken two. But neither here nor there...
I'm 52 and I would say the boats been the same my entire adult life.
We normies, Rep and Dem, need to say F this and create a party of sanity. People who would interfere - Soros, Bloomberg, Kotch Bros, any of those rich oxygen thieves, can take magic dirt naps if they get in the way.
We need our goddam country to belong to US, not the rich and the freaks.
Andy
Similar boat for the past 12 years... except someone said some unknown “Change” in there for 2/3s of the time.
It’s sad, but I doubt we will see someone in the 2024 lineup that will make any difference, either. Us verses them will continue until there are viable third (or fourth) parties to more define the broken two. But neither here nor there...
I think there's a high probability that we'll move to a single party system, and I imagine it's going to be about as warm and fuzzy as all the single party systems before it.
I think there's a high probability that we'll move to a single party system, and I imagine it's going to be about as warm and fuzzy as all the single party systems before it.
The ComDems are using California as their blueprint so the entire country is well on its way to single party rule. If they get Congress and the WH they will change all the rules to ensure they remain in power.
Easy data to get. Acting on that data is the hard part. Finding officers/agents willing to do so will be even harder.
While there were plenty of past instances showing that notion as incorrect(unfortunately), we are about 7 months in to police harassing church goers and others engaged in peaceably assembling while police stand by as favored groups attack people and property.
While that isn't the absolute "all" (and the ones who won't engage in nefarious behavior are as valuable as any other good neighbor) it is obvious that far too many will do "wrong". Whether they do it from their own leanings or on command has no bearing on the outcome.
Go the Biden campaign website and look up his gun control plan. ALL AR-15’s and standard capacity magazines will become NFA items if it is up to him. If that happens you may as well take off the brace and slap on the buttstock since you’ll be facing 10 years in the pen either way.
All bets are off with that clown. No one will own a BB gun when he or KH are done.
All bets are off with that clown. No one will own a BB gun when he or KH are done.
No one except his BLM/Antifa Brown Shirts.
MountainRaven
10-10-20, 19:36
Wow!
You really expect Trump or anyone in authority with a few other pressing matters to come to the aid of a legal wobbler?
It'll have to run its course. Learn how the American legal system works. It's VERY rare for a politician to chime in on a case when just a complaint is filed. Look at Kyle Rittenhouse where the Gov says he'll pardon him IF convicted. He cant step in and halt the prosecution...maybe he could but it's a very bad precedent! We don't want single people stepping in to change the course of law.
Meanwhile read this case with a private builder who prevailed in the SAME complaint about BATFE measuring length of pull wrong!
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/
This should be a legal precedent since it's the SAME complaint! Usually these are slam dunks for the defense. Hence we have every reason to believe BATFE will fail again in the long run and Q should prevail.
I don't know if you've actually read about what's going on here, but this is one or two ATF agents potentially making millions of Americans felons overnight.
So... yeah. By the time this has run it's course, if Trump or one of his appointees has not directly stepped in on it, we won't be talking about former-Vice President Biden, we'll be talking about President Biden. If Trump has some sort of election day miracle, he won't step in, because he won't care, he got his second term.
I don't know if you've actually read about what's going on here, but this is one or two ATF agents potentially making millions of Americans felons overnight.
So... yeah. By the time this has run it's course, if Trump or one of his appointees has not directly stepped in on it, we won't be talking about former-Vice President Biden, we'll be talking about President Biden. If Trump has some sort of election day miracle, he won't step in, because he won't care, he got his second term.
I don't know man...
The way I read it is they measured the length of pull wrong which resulted in greater than 13.5". This isn't about braces per se.
Again there is a process and one does not appeal to the prez right away. We haven't seen all the facts yet and some expect the prez to come out and make a ruling?! I'm glad he doesn't! The idea the prez steps in every issue and makes declarations right/wrong legal/illegal is absurd! And scary!
As with the case I presented Q needs to appeal and take to court. Rulings are based on previous case and if what we know is true so far I see no problem with Q prevailing.
While agree on threats to 2A I don't feel this is one and I think some guys are losing perspective.
As with the case I presented Q needs to appeal and take to court. Rulings are based on previous case and if what we know is true so far I see no problem with Q prevailing.
I take it you don't do a lot of work with the federal government.
I take it you don't do a lot of work with the federal government.
Nope...
Perhaps I'm wrong but perhaps you could share some instances where the prez has stepped to rule on cases like this.
Be serious... would a situation like this be pushed up through the ranks to get to the President? With all the election, COVID, peaceful protests... not to mention running a country.
The original letter was sent to Q in August. Having such a late “uprising” doesn’t mean the situation is known by all agency heads or even the President. Even the news breaking to us has only been two or three days.
Donald Trump Jr has posted about the decision as he's a big gun guy himself, so I'm willing to bet he's talked to his father about it.
Donald Trump Jr has posted about the decision as he's a big gun guy himself, so I'm willing to bet he's talked to his father about it.
We did a White House petition pretty quickly about it, too.
Is there anything to prevent a person from putting a 16” on a pistol lower, putting on a standard USGI stock and calling it a day?
Asking for a friend.
For years now I’ve been saying nobody in Gov gives a damn about your/our civil rights and the only response to these further injustices is mass non compliance and outright defiance.
No more eating our own, no more wannabe junior g men scouring online forums calling dudes out over pinning their 14.5s etc...
I loathe Antifa, BLM, Marxist commies, etc and their illegitimate, violent, yet still permissible (to the left anyways) “protest” tactics but you’d think we’d learn from them by now. There’s no morality in loosing and likewise there’s nothing patriot about wearing your figurative Covid mask just because it’s the law.
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For years now I’ve been saying nobody in Gov gives a damn about your/our civil rights and the only response to these further injustices is mass non compliance and outright defiance.
No more eating our own, no more wannabe junior g men scouring online forums calling dudes out over pinning their 14.5s etc...
I loathe Antifa, BLM, Marxist commies, etc and their illegitimate, violent, yet still permissible (to the left anyways) “protest” tactics but you’d think we’d learn from them by now. There’s no morality in loosing and likewise there’s nothing patriot about wearing your figurative Covid mask just because it’s the law.
Tour de force ^
Is there anything to prevent a person from putting a 16” on a pistol lower, puttinnog on a standard USGI stock and calling it a day?
Asking for a friend.
You can put a 16" barrel on a pistol lower with a brace and call it a day. Its still a pistol unless the ATF rules it a rifle, in which case it has a 16" barrel so it isn't a SBR.
Once you put the longer barrel and a stock on, it's a rifle. Switching back to a pistol at that point is a gray area.
Andy
Don't Tread On Me
10-12-20, 09:41
I thought going from pistol to rifle, back to pistol, was totally permissible, just not the other way around?
I thought going from pistol to rifle, back to pistol, was totally permissible, just not the other way around?
You can. Ignore what was just stated previously. A brace isn’t what makes it a pistol. Same way putting a stock on a lower without an upper doesn’t make it an SBR.
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IMPORTANT EDIT
ATF Ruling 2011-4 covers converting a rifle to pistol, pistol to rifle, and pistol to rifle to pistol.
This link directly opens the PDF ruling. Note its an atf.gov domain:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download
I would tell you what it says, but I can't make heads or tails of it.
Andy
I appreciate the helpful reply and information, thanks very much. :smile:
I can’t remember if it was sootch or twangnbang who said it, but I saw a YouTube video where a guy said he builds all his lowers as pistols and takes a picture with a short upper attached for his records, even if he ultimately intends to build a rifle. That way it’s always a pistol and he can return to braced short barrel configuration without creating an SBR
ViniVidivici
10-12-20, 16:19
BATFE: the ultimate troll.
I appreciate the helpful reply and information, thanks very much. :smile:
Please note my edited post with a link to the ATF ruling.
Please note my edited post with a link to the ATF ruling.
Read, copied, and bookmarked.
Thank you, my friend.
IMPORTANT EDIT
ATF Ruling 2011-4 covers converting a rifle to pistol, pistol to rifle, and pistol to rifle to pistol.
This link directly opens the PDF ruling. Note its an atf.gov domain:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download
I would tell you what it says, but I can't make heads or tails of it.
Andy
From the PDF:
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
IANAL, but it seems to confirm what I was saying. You can add a barrel of 16" or longer to your pistol lower, and even attach a stock to the receiver extension, but this does not make the lower a "rifle lower"; thus, you can return it to braced configuration and re-attach your barrel of less than 16" without running afoul. However, doing the opposite (putting a brace and a barrel of less than 16" onto a "rifle lower") is considered to be manufacturing an SBR because the lower was originally a firearm designed to be a rifle.
Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting this.
Also, thanks AndyLate!
I swear they are deliberately vague.
Andy
1_click_off
10-14-20, 14:13
Update:
Dear Customer:
Last Friday, October 9, 2020, our attorneys received a letter from ATF Chief Counsel Joel Roessner “temporarily suspending the Cease and Desist letter” associated with the Honey Badger Pistol by Q®. The letter states that the suspension, “will remain in effect for a period of sixty (60) days . . . unless withdrawn or extended by ATF.” The stated purpose of the suspension is to allow the Department of Justice (“DOJ”) an opportunity, “to further review the applicability of the National Firearms Act to the manufacture and transfer of the model ‘Honey Badger Pistol’ firearm.”
Our attorneys quickly followed up to inquire if the underlying Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division evaluation was also suspended but have not received a response. Regardless, until we are told otherwise by the U.S. government of a permanent decision, we must assume that the suspension of the Cease and Desist letter does not impact the ATF’s position that the Honey Badger Pistol is a National Firearms Act (“NFA”) weapon, as the ATF could arbitrarily withdraw the suspension at any time.
We believe this 60-day suspension is an effort to put manufacturers, distributors, and consumers at ease, and to postpone the issue past the presidential election in hopes that a new administration will take a different view. Using licensees as political pawns is unbecoming of a regulatory agency and ignoring the underlying evaluation in this letter is simply irresponsible. Q will not succumb to this level or irresponsibility. Therefore, without further clarification from ATF on their evaluation, we will not continue manufacturing the Honey Badger Pistol.[1]
Once again, we urge you to continue the pressure and contact the Department of Justice (ATF’s parent agency) by using this Take Action link provided by the National Rifle Association.
Additionally, we encourage you to continue reaching out to the White House and ask President Trump to halt and rollback ATF’s efforts to issue arbitrary and capricious decisions affecting millions of legal gun owners.
So millions of people potentially will become felons after Jan 20 2021.
In spite of this, we have many here that don't support Trump.
So I have a question for those against Trump, if you will not vote for Trump over a brain dead piece of corrupt garbage. Then why should anyone think you will fight to keep a free country?
They won’t. They’re pieces of shit. I said it. You vote for Biden you’re ok with pedophilia, murdering babies, and against the constitution. You’re a traitor and should be treated as such.
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BATFE: the ultimate troll.
^^This man gets it^^. Give him a cigar!
WickedWillis
10-14-20, 18:48
They won’t. They’re pieces of shit. I said it. You vote for Biden you’re ok with pedophilia, murdering babies, and against the constitution. You’re a traitor and should be treated as such.
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Easy there big fella, save some pussy for the rest of us
Y'all are breaking the first two rules of fight club.
It doesn't matter so much what the president wants. Trump is a lost cause I would focus on keeping the senate.^This. The Senate and the Supreme Court are all that really matter re. the 2nd Amendment. The Presidency is the tool that gets us the Supreme Court we want. We get the Senate that we want.
^This. The Senate and the Supreme Court are all that really matter re. the 2nd Amendment. The Presidency is the tool that gets us the Supreme Court we want. We get the Senate that we want.
Maybe, but a bigger problem is that the whole notion of “public safety” came into existence as a legal construct in the first place. Even Barrett has opined as such.
So either public safety, public health, etc overrides civil liberties or they don’t. History has born out that they do and all the Covid BS has only reinforced this nonsense in earnest.
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ATF moving to make AK/AR pistols AOWs.
https://youtu.be/u87NIIvofjU
Evel Baldgui
10-26-20, 20:43
We will have to respectfully disagree. You're not going to get law enforcement or active duty military to engage in forcible gun confiscation.
I've been a cop for a long time. I'm not doing it. Nor will any of the cops I know.
Even if 1 or 2% of law enforcement officers were willing to commit armed home invasions and homicide they would have a tough time getting it done. Most departments in this country have fewer than 50 officers. 2% of the officers in my department wouldn't give you enough guys to direct traffic on a busy street. Taking 2% of officers from all departments and forming some type of multi-jurisdictional gun confiscation unit would never happen when 98% are opposed to the idea.
A New Zealand style gun ban is entirely possible. We need to vote accordingly
You misinterpreted my comment. I said 1-2% of LE/.MIL may NOT take part. The other 98-99% will gleefully follow what ever orders their superiors issue. I'm sure almost all members of NYPD, Boston PD, LAPD, SFPD, Atlanta, Charlotte, Omaha, Dallas, Houston, Austin PD, list them all ...they WILL follow orders. The .MIL WILL follow orders, it's what they do, period. LE department members only concern is their livelihood, salary, health insurance, pensions. Citizens alleged rights don't mean a thing. Perhaps your department compromises the 1-2% that would not enforce such egregious orders; that is, until your salary depends on it.
I sincerely hope that such a situation never arises, for the resultant consequences would be severe on both sides of the equation.
You misinterpreted my comment. I said 1-2% of LE/.MIL may NOT take part. The other 98-99% will gleefully follow what ever orders their superiors issue. I'm sure almost all members of NYPD, Boston PD, LAPD, SFPD, Atlanta, Charlotte, Omaha, Dallas, Houston, Austin PD, list them all ...they WILL follow orders. The .MIL WILL follow orders, it's what they do, period. LE department members only concern is their livelihood, salary, health insurance, pensions. Citizens alleged rights don't mean a thing. Perhaps your department compromises the 1-2% that would not enforce such egregious orders; that is, until your salary depends on it.
I sincerely hope that such a situation never arises, for the resultant consequences would be severe on both sides of the equation.
Those in the departments listed, that would follow orders blindly, likely have a terrible taste from the BLM protests. To think L/E will go into homes to take firearms will be short lived... especially when that one guy, who isn’t going to roll over, decides to open fire on officers (and I’m not saying that has to happen per each agency... you have one situation like that, any L/E from coast to coast will say screw that). It would stop... quick, fast, and in a hurry.
But I will question you on how exactly you got your numbers (seems more along the lines of standard anti-L/E crap... which we do face enough of lately). Every L/E agency I’ve dealt with likely wouldn’t just go into Nazi gun confiscation mode (including some agencies that people feel are extremely anti-gun). Might happen in areas with anti-gun L/E, but the brass pushing for it and officers being forced to get put in a position where they likely could get shot... you’d see a lot less action than standing down. I’d say the reverse is probably more accurate... 98% of L/E won’t carry out such orders.
But if you want the exact reasoning why I wouldn’t do it... here is the oath I took.
“I, [name... you don’t need it], do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”
Last time I checked, the Second Amendment is still part of the Constitution. Maybe some people who think we are just in it for the pay see that as a meaningless statement... but I actually did, and still do, consider that my main duty. Call us racists... I’ll put my life in danger to save anyone, no matter of what difference someone wants to make a huge deal about. Someone starts shooting up a school or department store... I’ll be running in, whether I grabbed the AR/vest in my truck or just have my J-frame on me. Some of us do this job for more than just a paycheck.
Northern ME, where I’m Federal L/E... if DHS said we were being used to confiscate firearms... it wouldn’t be a port-wide no, it would be a port-wide HELL NO! I could only think of two people that would even consider it... one is too lazy to do it, and the other knows what it is like being on that end of the gun.
Seriously considering starting a trust and just Form 1ing my shit at this point
Seriously considering starting a trust and just Form 1ing my shit at this point
Why would you cave like that
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Why would you cave like that
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Many folks want the "illusion" of legal protection. Even to the point of giving up...
ViniVidivici
10-27-20, 09:23
Many folks want the "illusion" of legal protection. Even to the point of giving up...
No doubt. Screw that, and screw them, I wouldn't pay extra money to keep owning something I already own.
So sick of their never-ending crap.
I dont see anything wrong with a hedge. If your not hedging in other parts of your life, good luck. I would always prefer an SBR to pistol anyway.
I dont see anything wrong with a hedge. If your not hedging in other parts of your life, good luck. I would always prefer an SBR to pistol anyway.
Functionally, I agree - SBR>Pistol. The red tape makes it less attractive.
Andy
Functionally, I agree - SBR>Pistol. The red tape makes it less attractive.
Andy
I agree. Pre 41F it was a no brainer.
WickedWillis
10-27-20, 10:24
I saw a figure last night that there have been something like 4 million brace products sold. Millions of felons overnight with this. I don't think they have the numbers to enforce just the brace thing. My concern is there will be other items on the docket with the braces for them to enforce.
I sat idly while they banned bump stocks because they were not something I used or thought necessary, I won't do that again.
PracticalRifleman
10-27-20, 10:35
I seriously don’t understand how the BATF can PMS like this and “reclassify” something and “reinterpret” law on the whim leaving all of guessing whether we are in compliance. Makes many want to quit playing their game.
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WickedWillis
10-27-20, 10:52
I seriously don’t understand how the BATF can PMS like this and “reclassify” something and “reinterpret” law on the whim leaving all of guessing whether we are in compliance. Makes many want to quit playing their game.
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Because they are the Government
PracticalRifleman
10-27-20, 10:57
Because they are the Government
Why do we have a second amendment? Seems Americans don’t practice their 2A.
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WickedWillis
10-27-20, 11:00
Why do we have a second amendment? Seems Americans don’t practice their 2A.
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To make us feel warm and fuzzy and like we are protected.
Diamondback
10-27-20, 11:03
I seriously don’t understand how the BATF can PMS like this and “reclassify” something and “reinterpret” law on the whim leaving all of guessing whether we are in compliance. Makes many want to quit playing their game.
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Because they can without fear of consequence. Even when they got bent over and prison-bitched in court they just ignored it... "interesting ruling, enforce it if you can."
PracticalRifleman
10-27-20, 11:54
Because they can without fear of consequence. Even when they got bent over and prison-bitched in court they just ignored it... "interesting ruling, enforce it if you can."
Make Fear Great Again
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Diamondback
10-27-20, 12:35
Make Fear Great Again
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When it comes to rogue agencies, Trump needs to become the Crucifier-in-Chief. Maybe take up Vlad Tepes' mantle as "The Impaler" occasionally for variety.
Either way, he needs to start making visible and SPECTACULAR examples, until we can get a Congress that will grow a pair and clawback their authority to regulate by whim of the moment...
I have a question, when they created the whole NFA thing back in the 1930's, what happened to people that already owned a Thomson or a BAR etc?
Instant Felon's or pay your $200 or give up the gun or grandfathered in?
Have I said lately I hate Fox News for showing Biden at all?
I have a question, when they created the whole NFA thing back in the 1930's, what happened to people that already owned a Thomson or a BAR etc?
Instant Felon's or pay your $200 or give up the gun or grandfathered in?
Have I said lately I hate Fox News for showing Biden at all?
Good question...will be interesting watching this unfold with all the noise going on.
Good gravy...they had obama on a while ago & you would swear trump is piping corona through our water pipes. Nov 3 can't get here soon enough!!
When it comes to rogue agencies, Trump needs to become the Crucifier-in-Chief. Maybe take up Vlad Tepes' mantle as "The Impaler" occasionally for variety.
Either way, he needs to start making visible and SPECTACULAR examples, until we can get a Congress that will grow a pair and clawback their authority to regulate by whim of the moment...
He should definitely crush whoever’s idea it was to ban bumpstocks.
He should definitely crush whoever’s idea it was to ban bumpstocks.
Don Jr. is very active on social media and he’s all over IG so it’s reasonable to affirm he’s well aware of all the goings on, including the W stuff. How or why that hasn’t translated into anything from his dad is anyone’s guess.
But it’s BS for sure.
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Don Jr. is very active on social media and he’s all over IG so it’s reasonable to affirm he’s well aware of all the goings on, including the W stuff. How or why that hasn’t translated into anything from his dad is anyone’s guess.
But it’s BS for sure.
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Kevin called him. They are good friends and go hunting together all the time. 100% has to do with the fact there is an election in 8 days.
I have a question, when they created the whole NFA thing back in the 1930's, what happened to people that already owned a Thomson or a BAR etc?
Instant Felon's or pay your $200 or give up the gun or grandfathered in?
Have I said lately I hate Fox News for showing Biden at all?
Probably an amnesty period, which everything needed to be registered by X date. But I honestly don’t know for sure.
I know when NJ did their AWB, they had registration forms available for firearms (and from what I’ve heard, magazines over 15 rounds). Once it passed the end date, the forms were destroyed and then people technically became felons.
Kevin called him. They are good friends and go hunting together all the time. 100% has to do with the fact there is an election in 8 days.
Glad you could read through my spelling botch lol
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Once it passed the end date, the forms were destroyed and then people technically became felons.
I have never been a real felon before. I have done things in places where if discovered I would be a felon, but it was for G-D, country and family.
But a felon all on my own, for demanding freedom.
I think it will be an interesting change.
I think it will be like they said in deviant psychology, when the point was made it is harder to get into the deviant category from the so called normal. Than it is to evolve from one deviancy to an other.
Your a felon, will it hurt more to become a felon in an other area?
I have a question, when they created the whole NFA thing back in the 1930's, what happened to people that already owned a Thomson or a BAR etc?
Instant Felon's or pay your $200 or give up the gun or grandfathered in?
Have I said lately I hate Fox News for showing Biden at all?Because in 1930 there was no paperwork
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PracticalRifleman
10-27-20, 16:30
I have never been a real felon before. I have done things in places where if discovered I would be a felon, but it was for G-D, country and family.
But a felon all on my own, for demanding freedom.
I think it will be an interesting change.
I think it will be like they said in deviant psychology, when the point was made it is harder to get into the deviant category from the so called normal. Than it is to evolve from one deviancy to an other.
Your a felon, will it hurt more to become a felon in an other area?
You’re only a felon if convicted. If you don’t let them convict you, you’re a suspect [emoji724][emoji3098][emoji216]
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Diamondback
10-27-20, 17:02
You’re only a felon if convicted. If you don’t let them convict you, you’re a suspect [emoji724][emoji3098][emoji216]
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I know lots of folks riffing on Yoni, that if gov insists on making felons of them it'll be Go Big or Go Home time.
You’re only a felon if convicted. If you don’t let them convict you, you’re a suspect [emoji724][emoji3098][emoji216]
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201027/6a8532e0da1f58a310869f919a5872fb.jpg
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Why do we have a second amendment? Seems Americans don’t practice their 2A.
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We won't have it much longer.
I know lots of folks riffing on Yoni, that if gov insists on making felons of them it'll be Go Big or Go Home time.
The question is very simple will Americans in America be free?
What are Americans willing to do to resist? For now I am only thinking getting involved with NRA and pushing them to take a stand.
But if the American gun owners are not willing to do anything to show our displeasure, then for sure they will not resist with violence when the time comes.
The NRA should call for a march of gun owners in DC. 2 million people should be there.
The question is very simple will Americans in America be free?
What are Americans willing to do to resist? For now I am only thinking getting involved with NRA and pushing them to take a stand.
But if the American gun owners are not willing to do anything to show our displeasure, then for sure they will not resist with violence when the time comes.
The NRA should call for a march of gun owners in DC. 2 million people should be there.
Lol...
As evidenced by the country’s eagerness to
roll over and acquiesce to draconian government Covid BS you have your answer.
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NRA is a joke. What is the last thing they’ve gotten done? Wayne is a twat waffle more worried about his $100,000 suits than fighting for the 2a.
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PracticalRifleman
10-27-20, 22:48
NRA is a joke. What is the last thing they’ve gotten done? Wayne is a twat waffle more worried about his $100,000 suits than fighting for the 2a.
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They are the best at herding the cattle.
What was the last thing GOA did?
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The ATF Had Redefined What A Pistol Is: Are You Now A Criminal?
Mrgunsngear Channel
https://youtu.be/dkYlQz7KPVE
Update: BATF goes SERIOUSLY rogue with AOW's & YouTube pulling videos
Military Arms Channel
https://youtu.be/sAC-IRnQLPI
MountainRaven
10-28-20, 15:18
And Trump sits and does nothing.
The NRA sits and does nothing.
As usual.
WickedWillis
10-28-20, 15:27
And Trump sits and does nothing.
The NRA sits and does nothing.
As usual.
I would not expect Trump to touch this until after he gets re-elected (if that happens) reason being, he seems awfully sure he has the 2a vote wrapped up in this election.
PracticalRifleman
10-28-20, 15:29
And Trump sits and does nothing.
The NRA sits and does nothing.
As usual.
The NRA went to bat for Q. I know that’s the narrative these days is that the NRA is useless, but at least try to be accurate.
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I would not expect Trump to touch this until after he gets re-elected (if that happens) reason being, he seems awfully sure he has the 2a vote wrapped up in this election.
I totally agree with this. The issue is a less a 2nd amendment issue and more a cleaning up of the agencies. ATF is on the list. They played their hand. They thinks it's Biden all day and if he wins, those that pulled this shit will be congratulated and promoted. If he loses, cleanup will be swift.
I totally agree with this. The issue is a less a 2nd amendment issue and more a cleaning up of the agencies. ATF is on the list. They played their hand. They thinks it's Biden all day and if he wins, those that pulled this shit will be congratulated and promoted. If he loses, cleanup will be swift.
No, it won’t.
ViniVidivici
10-28-20, 16:43
Yeah POTUS is not touching this till after the election, which is the right course of action.
It'll be handled in time.
Does the batfe do anything useful?
It would be nice if Trump could do away with them all entirely.
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