View Full Version : A closer look at Textron's NGSW candidate...
The below video (recently made) gives an idea of their latest configuration. The Army being a conservative institution, not sure if they're ready to make the jump to case telescoped ammo yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQigh3BEnpU&feature=youtu.be
BoringGuy45
10-10-20, 17:53
I still stand by what I've said many times before: This whole program looks like it's going to go the same route as the ACR, OICW, Land Warrior, XM8, and Individual Carbine competitions. There are too many issues with logistics, as well as the fact that these telescoping rounds appear to be a pretty big trade off of weight for bulk; instead of carrying around a bunch of small 5.56, or even 7.62 rounds, soldiers will be carrying around what looks like the equivalent of 20 gauge shotgun rounds. That's going to mean smaller magazine capacity and less space on one's vest to carry the same amount of rounds as the current issue. It just doesn't seem like this is going to solve enough problems to justify replacing the current weapons.
I still stand by what I've said many times before: This whole program looks like it's going to go the same route as the ACR, OICW, Land Warrior, XM8, and Individual Carbine competitions. There are too many issues with logistics, as well as the fact that these telescoping rounds appear to be a pretty big trade off of weight for bulk; instead of carrying around a bunch of small 5.56, or even 7.62 rounds, soldiers will be carrying around what looks like the equivalent of 20 gauge shotgun rounds. That's going to mean smaller magazine capacity and less space on one's vest to carry the same amount of rounds as the current issue. It just doesn't seem like this is going to solve enough problems to justify replacing the current weapons.
Maybe not but it will funnel more taxpayer money into the MIC.
I still stand by what I've said many times before: This whole program looks like it's going to go the same route as the ACR, OICW, Land Warrior, XM8, and Individual Carbine competitions. There are too many issues with logistics, as well as the fact that these telescoping rounds appear to be a pretty big trade off of weight for bulk; instead of carrying around a bunch of small 5.56, or even 7.62 rounds, soldiers will be carrying around what looks like the equivalent of 20 gauge shotgun rounds. That's going to mean smaller magazine capacity and less space on one's vest to carry the same amount of rounds as the current issue. It just doesn't seem like this is going to solve enough problems to justify replacing the current weapons.
We should just come up with a rifle that fires flechett rounds and be done with it.
just a scout
10-10-20, 18:27
I’ll bet that Sig ends up with the contract. Anyone want to take me up on that?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
SomeOtherGuy
10-10-20, 19:28
I’ll bet that Sig ends up with the contract. Anyone want to take me up on that?
At the current pace I'll bet that Sig is the "lead contractor" for the next stealth fighter, nuclear submarine, and MRE...
We should just come up with a rifle that fires flechett rounds and be done with it.
Didn't they try that with the Special Purpose Individual Weapon (in the 1960's)?
Didn't they try that with the Special Purpose Individual Weapon (in the 1960's)?
Yes, it was a joke in reference to that specific thing. I think it was also resurrected sometime in the 1980s with some kind of sabot / flechett round.
One thing that immediately strikes me is that the rifle and SAW versions have their ejection port on the handguard several inches forward of the magwell. To me this looks like a big problem waiting to happen. An ejection port in this location seems more likely to get blocked if the shooter has his support hand close to the magwell, or when shooting the gun from around or behind barriers or rests. In contemporary semiauto designs the ejection port is usually located above and parallel to the magwell. This keeps it away from where a hand might be, and generally away from where it might be blocked by cover or rests. Even with most bullpups the trigger is forward of the ejection port, which keeps the ejection port back where it is less likely to be obstructed.
Click on the attached picture from the video and note how close the shooter's forward hand position is to the ejection port. I could see situations where hand placement might not be ideal and the support hand would block the ejection port causing a malfunction. Also consider the increased likelihood of this happening with regular line troops as opposed to more highly trained users.
64003
Averageman
10-11-20, 02:22
Yeah, that's going to be a real issue.
One thing that immediately strikes me is that the rifle and SAW versions have their ejection port on the handguard several inches forward of the magwell. To me this looks like a big problem waiting to happen. An ejection port in this location seems more likely to get blocked if the shooter has his support hand close to the magwell, or when shooting the gun from around or behind barriers or rests. In contemporary semiauto designs the ejection port is usually located above and parallel to the magwell. This keeps it away from where a hand might be, and generally away from where it might be blocked by cover or rests. Even with most bullpups the trigger is forward of the ejection port, which keeps the ejection port back where it is less likely to be obstructed.
Click on the attached picture from the video and note how close the shooter's forward hand position is to the ejection port. I could see situations where hand placement might not be ideal and the support hand would block the ejection port causing a malfunction. Also consider the increased likelihood of this happening with regular line troops as opposed to more highly trained users.
64003
Even worse, it's almost a closed system like the HK G11. Having a spent case ejected anywhere else expect where it is extracted from the chamber means the rifle doesn't cool as well. This means it heats up faster, cooks off sooner and more downtime between bursts.
The G11 was a brilliant idea in concept, but high cyclic rates and no way to let the rifle naturally cool meant it was doomed even if they did get it in the field.
64003
Which arm brace is that?
:jester:
Grand58742
10-11-20, 09:35
Yes, it was a joke in reference to that specific thing. I think it was also resurrected sometime in the 1980s with some kind of sabot / flechett round.
It was in the late 80s with the amount of body armor already hitting the Combloc militaries.
It was a bad idea in the 60s and just as much in the 80s. "Hey guys, let's make it where the enemy gets hit by like a needle or something!"
BoringGuy45
10-11-20, 09:57
It was in the late 80s with the amount of body armor already hitting the Combloc militaries.
It was a bad idea in the 60s and just as much in the 80s. "Hey guys, let's make it where the enemy gets hit by like a needle or something!"
I have to wonder if someone took the whole idea of "wound, don't kill, so that the enemy will be too busy pulling injured soldiers to safety to shoot back..." seriously when they came up with the idea for flechetts.
Diamondback
10-11-20, 10:07
I have to wonder if someone took the whole idea of "wound, don't kill, so that the enemy will be too busy pulling injured soldiers to safety to shoot back..." seriously when they came up with the idea for flechetts.
Didn't take into account that there are still less-civilized forces that either leave the wounded or bayonet them...
Flechettes were a developmental dead end in both cases. However, their performance was interesting. From Wikipedia:
"Further development continued by adapting a Winchester Model 70 rifle with new XM110 5.6×53 mm rounds firing a single dart. The result was a weapon with somewhat less accuracy than the 7.62×51mm NATO rounds, but with equal penetration and a trajectory so flat it could be fired with no sight adjustment out to 400 yards (370 m). Better yet the rounds were very light, and had almost no recoil in comparison to even the 0.22-inch (5.6 mm) caliber weapons under development. This meant they could be fired at extremely high rates of fire, from a very lightweight weapon."
Grand58742
10-11-20, 11:23
Flechettes were a developmental dead end in both cases. However, their performance was interesting. From Wikipedia:
"Further development continued by adapting a Winchester Model 70 rifle with new XM110 5.6×53 mm rounds firing a single dart. The result was a weapon with somewhat less accuracy than the 7.62×51mm NATO rounds, but with equal penetration and a trajectory so flat it could be fired with no sight adjustment out to 400 yards (370 m). Better yet the rounds were very light, and had almost no recoil in comparison to even the 0.22-inch (5.6 mm) caliber weapons under development. This meant they could be fired at extremely high rates of fire, from a very lightweight weapon."
I don't know if they ever did any kind of ballistics tests with them, but I couldn't imagine they would be any more effective than the M855 in use at the time. They were only a millimeter or two in diameter and one has to wonder with the warp speed they're sailing along at if they are going to be effective even with the kinetic energy transfer. I also feel like the energy is going to be severely diminished downrange.
Like Boring said, it's like they used the "wound" method rather than "kill" even though it was supposed to be "better." I'm just thinking you'd have to hit an enemy a whole lot of times before they start getting incapacitated.
The Amy is ****ing stupid sometimes.
Averageman
10-11-20, 11:31
I remember sitting in a class talking about 7.62 ammo and out comes the "Duplex" round where someone decided to put two projectiles in a 7.62 case.
I have a feeling that was a little tough on barrels.
Grand58742
10-11-20, 11:41
I remember sitting in a class talking about 7.62 ammo and out comes the "Duplex" round where someone decided to put two projectiles in a 7.62 case.
I have a feeling that was a little tough on barrels.
Sounds perfect for an M134...
"6,000 rounds a minute on target? No, let's try 12,000 rounds impacting instead and see how that works!"
I remember sitting in a class talking about 7.62 ammo and out comes the "Duplex" round where someone decided to put two projectiles in a 7.62 case.
I have a feeling that was a little tough on barrels.
One of those famous SOG guys from Vietnam (maybe Bob Howard?) used 7.62 duplex rounds in a modified M14 he sometimes carried.
Flechettes were a developmental dead end in both cases. However, their performance was interesting.
Out of a 106mm recoilless rifle they were devastating.
They also were used in 2.75 rocket warheads, but I haven't heard or read anything about their effectiveness in Vietnam. Overall, I have a feeling that one or two hits from smaller (14 grain?) flechettes might not be incapacitating.
Why do people try to reinvent the wheel?
We should have energy weapons by now.
All these guns do is generate kickbacks. A round going a little farther and a little faster. But you have to buy a whole new gun, armorers kits, small parts, etc etc to do it.
Whoopdee shit.
I’ve been genuinely fascinated by the 6.8 and have long considered taking the plunge but it went nowhere.
Same with 300 blk. It’s a hogging gun more than anything. It would almost be cheaper(or would have been before the lunacy) to get a 7.62x39 of some kind.
I’m thinking this is just an excuse to spend money for diminishing returns.
I could be easily wrong but just saying
Diamondback
10-11-20, 13:57
Why do people try to reinvent the wheel?
We should have energy weapons by now.
All these guns do is generate kickbacks. A round going a little farther and a little faster. But you have to buy a whole new gun, armorers kits, small parts, etc etc to do it.
Whoopdee shit.
I’ve been genuinely fascinated by the 6.8 and have long considered taking the plunge but it went nowhere.
Same with 300 blk. It’s a hogging gun more than anything. It would almost be cheaper(or would have been before the lunacy) to get a 7.62x39 of some kind.
I’m thinking this is just an excuse to spend money for diminishing returns.
I could be easily wrong but just saying
Your Star Trek phaser is all well and good until somebody figures out how to build energy shields... then they go all Borg on you and you'll wish you had a reliable slugthrower.
No shit, if I'm Picard in ST: Insurrection as soon as I find out there are Borg on board I have the replicators crank out 6920's for everyone aboard the Enterprise and then continuously replicating Pmags full of alternating M995 Blacktip and Mk 318, then beaming the mags into the wells of every gun as soon as the previous mag's dropped.
Averageman
10-11-20, 13:59
Why do people try to reinvent the wheel?
We should have energy weapons by now.
All these guns do is generate kickbacks. A round going a little farther and a little faster. But you have to buy a whole new gun, armorers kits, small parts, etc etc to do it.
Whoopdee shit.
I’ve been genuinely fascinated by the 6.8 and have long considered taking the plunge but it went nowhere.
Same with 300 blk. It’s a hogging gun more than anything. It would almost be cheaper(or would have been before the lunacy) to get a 7.62x39 of some kind.
I’m thinking this is just an excuse to spend money for diminishing returns.
I could be easily wrong but just saying
I worked with M240's MG's for over twenty years, I would guess close to a half million round over those years, I can honestly say I saw less than a half dozen malfunctions.
It might be heavy to carry, but it is reliable as hell. It's going to be damned hard to out do that one.
Your Star Trek phaser is all well and good until somebody figures out how to build energy shields... then they go all Borg on you and you'll wish you had a reliable slugthrower.
No shit, if I'm Picard in ST: Insurrection as soon as I find out there are Borg on board I have the replicators crank out 6920's for everyone aboard the Enterprise and then continuously replicating Pmags full of alternating M995 Blacktip and Mk 318, then beaming the mags into the wells of every gun as soon as the previous mag's dropped.
No. They have Chemical lasers and DEWs today that can fry you like a burrito. They just aren’t cheap nor man portable.
I worked with M240's MG's for over twenty years, I would guess close to a half million round over those years, I can honestly say I saw less than a half dozen malfunctions.
It might be heavy to carry, but it is reliable as hell. It's going to be damned hard to out do that one.
Yeah. I’m all for making things lighter but let’s be real, ballistic small arms haven’t “stagnated”; they’ve simply peaked. We finally have shit that works. Anything else is to make money
just a scout
10-11-20, 14:17
Why do people try to reinvent the wheel?
We should have energy weapons by now.
All these guns do is generate kickbacks. A round going a little farther and a little faster. But you have to buy a whole new gun, armorers kits, small parts, etc etc to do it.
Whoopdee shit.
I’ve been genuinely fascinated by the 6.8 and have long considered taking the plunge but it went nowhere.
Same with 300 blk. It’s a hogging gun more than anything. It would almost be cheaper(or would have been before the lunacy) to get a 7.62x39 of some kind.
I’m thinking this is just an excuse to spend money for diminishing returns.
I could be easily wrong but just saying
There’s a reason the Galactica has projectile weapons as do Vipers and all the troops. Even the Cylons use projectiles because the energy doesn’t get weak and diffused by atmosphere and particles, it doesn’t generate as much heat and doesn’t need stupidly huge batteries for power.
Phuck phasers.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
BoringGuy45
10-11-20, 14:44
Just give me an M41A Pulse Rifle and we'll call it fair.
Sounds perfect for an M134...
"6,000 rounds a minute on target? No, let's try 12,000 rounds impacting instead and see how that works!"
🍆
.....
Diamondback
10-11-20, 15:02
No. They have Chemical lasers and DEWs today that can fry you like a burrito. They just aren’t cheap nor man portable.
Hell, we had that back in the 1960's... fire up the radar on an F-106 on the ground and crank it to full power and you'll cook anyone who gets too close--a prof who used to command a fighter squadron told me his Zombie Defense plan in the '80s was to stake out a building to shelter the families and support peeps in, park his Sixes in a ring around it hooked up to auxiliary power, with a rifleman on each wing and a pilot in each cockpit ready to crank up the MA-1s and turn the area into a giant, inside-out microwave oven.
Just give me an M41A Pulse Rifle and we'll call it fair.
This man speaks for a whole generation
I worked with M240's MG's for over twenty years, I would guess close to a half million round over those years, I can honestly say I saw less than a half dozen malfunctions.
It might be heavy to carry, but it is reliable as hell. It's going to be damned hard to out do that one.
I was a 240B gunner for a couple years. Definitely not as many rounds down range. The only time my gun ever malfunctioned was when I was shooting ammo straight out of the card board box and the belt caught a lip and fed the box into the gun. Even then I think it got a couple rounds off with the box being shredded into the feeding port before it stopped. Took all of about 10 seconds to clear and get back to shooting.
I could see making the 240 lighter, like they did with the 240L. Or maybe chambering it in another cartridge for longer/flatter trajectory. But you'll have a hard time making a better machinegun.
just a scout
10-12-20, 17:01
Idk. The MG68 from Sig is supposed to be serious hotness.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.