View Full Version : Less powerful-yet-still-effective 12 ga defensive ammo suggestions?
“Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in ...”
Against all common sense and past experience I bought a police trade-in 870. I’m back in shotguns - couldn’t resist.
Can any of you fine Gentlemen please recommend an ammo load which will still be effective in and around my small home but not jar my fillings loose? 00 buck I can do for about 40 shells, then I’m done for the day and need 2 x Alleve.
Will #4 work?
I’d like to avoid blasting through a wall, across the property, and hurting a neighbor. I like my neighbors.
Thanking you in advance for any guidance ...
If you want a round for defensive purposes, get a defensive round. Federal Flite Control Tactical 8-9 shot.
You can practice all day with lower recoil rounds. Many shotgun classes use birdshot for the majority of the rounds specifically because they don’t want to knock the fillings out of the students.
SeriousStudent
10-12-20, 22:02
I practice with Winchester AA birdshot - the 3 dram equivalent load with 7 and a half size shot. That is very reliable, and has enough power to always cycle in my Beretta and Benelli semi-auto's. You won't have that problem with your 870. I'd honestly encourage you to stay away from the WallyWorld el cheapo zinc-based rounds. Those are made to the lowest possible standards. They frequently have issues with failures to extract from a shotgun chamber, especially the less well polished Express models.
Is your the Wingmaster or Police Magnum? Both are excellent, and capable of great work.
I'd encourage you to take a look at the Magpul shotgun stocks. They are very useful. If you have a buddy with one, try it out.
Stick some Velcro on the side of the receiver and the stock: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006IC2T/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Then slap on on these on: https://www.skdtac.com/Esstac-Shotgun-Card-5-Round-p/ess.125.htm
I'd definitely replace the mag tube spring with a Wolff spring from Brownells. The eight bucks is cheap insurance.
A lot of people properly consider the shotgun a niche weapon. But it's a niche that a lot of people live in - 3-25 yards.
ggammell is spot on with the Federal Flite Control ammo. The ne plus ultra is their 8-pellet reduced recoil 00 Buck load. Hornady licenses the same technology for their Versa-Tite wad, but their pellets do not use as much antinomy in the lead pellets, and their also do not copper-plate them. As a result, they deform more in the barrel and do not shoot as tight a pattern in any shotgun I have done a side-by-side comparison on.
If you really, really want to run down the rabbit hole, get a Benelli SBS with an Aimpoint Micro, ot a Beretta 1301 with an RDS.
Word around the campfire is that Beretta may introduce a 14" barrel for the 1301 next year. If they do, I'll be on that like ugly on an ape.
Until then, practice with that 870. Chant over and over "Feed the pig!"
If you have a chance, you can get a lot out of a one-day shotgun class. Matt and Rob Haught, Wayne Dobbs, Darryl Bolke, Tom Givens, Lee Weems, Ashton Ray and Scotty Reitz all come to mind. I have taken a lot of classes, and did the Tom Given's Shotgun Instructor class last year, sharing the Top Gun award. I did that with a 870 Police trade-in - in a class full of Beretta's and Benelli's.
So it can be done. :cool:
And the very last point you make about not shooting through the wall is a valid concern. I personally believe the very best way to accomplish that is by using a good shotgun (you now have one), quality ammo like Federal Flite Control, and judicious marksmanship. Bad people make great backstops. Shoot straight, don't miss, and shoot only as often as you need to. I have personally only seen one person that took a solid hit from 00 Buck within 20 yards that needed a second helping.
Kind of a wandering answer, but let me know if I can be of any further assistance.
SeriousStudent
10-12-20, 22:09
Additional: I just saw you are in central Arizona. You really should reach out to Matt Haught at Sym-Tac.
https://sym-tac.com/
Matt is a personal friend, and a really good dude who is local to you. He is the son of Chief Rob Haught (rhymes with double-aught) who teaches the push-pull method that is highly effective at reducing recoil.
Another guy you may want to try and connect with is Cecil Burch. http://www.iacombatives.com/
Cecil is a 3rd degree black belt in BJJ, and pretty dang handy with a shotgun. He's just a super nice fellow as well, and a tremendous mentor. He is also part of the Shivworks Cartel, which I cannot recommend strongly enough.
Hope that helps.
Against all common sense and past experience I bought a police trade-in 870. I’m back in shotguns
For the record...
8 pellet Federal reduced recoil.
And a Beretta 1301T. It feels about a pound lighter than an 870 but recoil is noticeably less harsh. I think it's a big enough difference to consider before you start putting money into 870 upgrades.
You can literally get 7/8oz trainer/target loads in 12ga now & these have such little recoil, they won't function in many autos...I shoot a min dram 1oz target around 1200fps that is equal to most 20ga out of my Zoli for bird hunting. No reason to get beat up for practice & having a pump & doubt any of us will notice recoil under stressful situations.
There's plenty of research on the smaller pellets having very poor penetration, especially if the perp has layered clothing...I had the same concern but sticking with buckshot after seeing such poor performance.
SeriousStudent
10-13-20, 18:02
For the record...
People's Exhibit A..... :big_boss:
SeriousStudent
10-13-20, 18:09
I do encourage folks who advocate using birdshot for self defense to actually go shoot a bird with it. The last time I went dove hunting (white wing's and morning doves here in Texas) we very frequently had to wring the neck of a bird that got knocked down. Think about that for a sec.
So it just disables a small bird with hollow bones just enough so it cannot fly, and I'm gonna use it to smite a two-time felon that smoked a basketball-sized crack rock and washed it down with four bottles of Monster. Got it.
And I'll back Todd.K's recommendation of the Beretta 1301T. It is very choice. It's also about two kilobucks once you get it all set up with the appropriate Aridus and Magpul gear, not to mention an Aimpoint Micro.
With good ammo and training, you can do the Lord's work with a Police 870.
I roll with an early Benelli H&K Va import w/ the magic bolt & it holds 9...first 7 are BS & last two are slugs. Ya know, just on case.
Seriously gang, nix the bird shot if you want to stay in the fight.
“Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in ...”
Against all common sense and past experience I bought a police trade-in 870. I’m back in shotguns - couldn’t resist.
Can any of you fine Gentlemen please recommend an ammo load which will still be effective in and around my small home but not jar my fillings loose? 00 buck I can do for about 40 shells, then I’m done for the day and need 2 x Alleve.
Will #4 work?
I’d like to avoid blasting through a wall, across the property, and hurting a neighbor. I like my neighbors.
Thanking you in advance for any guidance ...
I’m a big fan of #4 buck. It’s a BUNCH if .32 calibers hitting at about the same time.
#4 Buck kicks more, not less, than 00. #1 slightly more than standard 00.
Why? Because more lead packs into the shell. Less air / filler space, more lead, more recoil for a given powder charge. If you want recoil fun try 3 inch 41-pellet #4 Buck. It's only about 820 grains of lead! (Versus about 478 grains for 9 pellet 00)
What your looking for is 8 pellet 00 or another load designated as "less recoil". They will have fewer pellets, less powder, or both.
Low-brass birdshot is great for practicing at close range. As are dummy shells so you can practice manipulation without recoil at all. Be carefull!
I’m a big fan of #4 buck. It’s a BUNCH if .32 calibers hitting at about the same time.
Fyi #4 Buck is .24 caliber / 20 grains
#1 Buck .30 cal / 40 grains
00 Buck .33 cal / 53 grains
Fyi #4 Buck is .24 caliber / 20 grains
#1 Buck .30 cal / 40 grains
00 Buck .33 cal / 53 grains
Thanks for the clarification. When I bought my Super X2 I ordered a bunch of #4 3.5 inch shells..... I still have a bunch left.... It's fun to shoot, but not a lot of them in a single sitting.
Maybe I am just old fashioned but for SD I keep Federal 2 3/4" 00 buck 9 pellet on hand along with some 1 oz. slugs, although the buck is my preference for hallway distances. For practice any low brass 7 1/2 shot works well and is cheap.
Same here & ammo comes from Fed LE...no need for anything longer than 2 3/4 vs having another round or two for shotty distance..
Maybe I am just old fashioned but for SD I keep Federal 2 3/4" 00 buck 9 pellet on hand along with some 1 oz. slugs, although the buck is my preference for hallway distances. For practice any low brass 7 1/2 shot works well and is cheap.
And I'll back Todd.K's recommendation of the Beretta 1301T. It is very choice. It's also about two kilobucks once you get it all set up with the appropriate Aridus and Magpul gear, not to mention an Aimpoint Micro.
Think of it as investing in the future. If recoil is starting to become an issue it's pretty unlikely to get better with added years.
And a 1301T is serviceable out of the box, all the goodies can be added later if you want them.
I’m grateful for the all of the detailed and VERY helpful information posted, here - “thank you” doesn’t begin to cover it.
I really appreciate the knowledge and excellent references presented, I never imagined I’d get so much aid.
Thanks very much, Gentlemen.
SeriousStudent
10-18-20, 18:49
Think of it as investing in the future. If recoil is starting to become an issue it's pretty unlikely to get better with added years.
And a 1301T is serviceable out of the box, all the goodies can be added later if you want them.
You know, that is an excellent point. At 60+, I am definitely more recoil sensitive. Arthritis, accumulated injuries over the decades, etc.
I do love my 1301T, but it was a slow process to add all the Aridus goodies as they trickled onto the market.
And having said all that, I scored a ridiculously good deal yesterday on what? A Benelli M2, which is a recoil-operated shotgun. Such is my life.
I did get out this afternoon and run some rounds through the 1301T in your honor, good sir. The weather was too nice to not go make loud noises. :)
Grim.Patriot
10-25-20, 18:59
Although intended for LE only, the Hornady TAP Low Recoil 12GA 00 buckshot is the most pleasant shooting 00 I've experienced. Rated slightly slower velocity’s than the Federal LE Low Recoil, the Hornady has significantly less felt recoil. Hard to find, but a great low velocity/low recoil option for one's up close and personal shotgun work.
Mediocre answer, but the Rio 9x-00 Low Recoil is decent, and I used to be able to find it cheaply in bulk. I don't know enough fully about terminal performance, but it's miles behind 5.56 as needed, but that's a load I was willing to practice with, and get just decent enough to conclude that the 870 was plan C at best.
If it doesn't have one already, stick a Remington Super Cell recoil pad on it. They did good on those.
Flite control wads are slick if the barrel is compatible. I have one that works and another that strips it off somewhere and patterns it like any other shot.
Also, look in to Remington managed recoil 1 oz slugs @ 1200fps. Haven't tried them yet, but Brenneke has a slightly warmer reduced slug that I assume shoots well based on using their K.O. slugs.
If the flite control doesn't pan out, Remington makes an 8 pellet managed recoil 00 shell too.
https://www.remington.com/ammunition/shotshell/slugs/slugger-managed-recoil-rifled-slugs
https://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enforcement-ammunition/thdr-tactical-home-defense/
https://www.remington.com/ammunition/shotshell/buckshot/managed-recoil-buckshot-loads
Ok, I'm a little late to the party so here's my 2 cents. The 870 (and Mossberg 500) have one of the worst stock designs in the history of shotguns. They just plain beat you up with recoil energy. The Magpul stock is not only a better design, but it has a very tall built in recoil pad that distributes recoil energy in a much less painful way. I'm partial to Fiocchi low recoil slugs and buckshot as training rounds. You can run high round days and not feel beat to $%&! at the end of the day. I've alse gotten excellent accuracy with a cylinder choke out of Federal LE buckshot with the flight control wad. At 25 yards I can keep the group well within the scoring rings on the B29 target.
You will get better recoil management from a gas operated semi, but most tactical guns won't run on low recoil rounds. I had a Benelli M4 that I foolishly sold, but it would not cycle on anything running under 1,200 FPS. AFAIK the Beretta 1301T and Mossberg 930 won't run on low recoil either. I just got a Beretta 1301 Comp 21" barrel so as soon as I get to the range I'll find out if it runs on my favorite Fiocchi rounds.
My 1301T runs Fed LE133 and 1oz light target loads without any problems.
“Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in ...”
Against all common sense and past experience I bought a police trade-in 870. I’m back in shotguns - couldn’t resist.
Can any of you fine Gentlemen please recommend an ammo load which will still be effective in and around my small home but not jar my fillings loose? 00 buck I can do for about 40 shells, then I’m done for the day and need 2 x Alleve.
Will #4 work?
I’d like to avoid blasting through a wall, across the property, and hurting a neighbor. I like my neighbors.
Thanking you in advance for any guidance ...
No 1 and no 4 buckshot are your best bets.
https://ammo.com/bullet-type/4-buck
robstercraw
11-14-20, 16:23
My federal agency utilizes Winchester Ranger Low Recoil Rifled Slugs. This wont last long though....we are in the process of deadlining all agency shotguns besides the ones used for breaching.
Birdshot to practice or reduced recoil and Flight Control for the win. I do think so many of these new gun owners (riot control team) would be better off with a scatter boomer than buying a new CZ75 in many cases. Still an effective weapon. Most of us have better options but for a newbie, its a good fit.
Not saying the OP is a newbie, juts making a point the shotgun is still viable.
PB
Birdshot to practice or reduced recoil and Flight Control for the win. I do think so many of these new gun owners (riot control team) would be better off with a scatter boomer than buying a new CZ75 in many cases. Still an effective weapon. Most of us have better options but for a newbie, its a good fit.
Not saying the OP is a newbie, juts making a point the shotgun is still viable.
PB
12 Guage shotgun has been adequate for home defense as long as shotguns have existed. I would not say it's superior to a carbine but they are definitely easier for a shooter with limited experience to hit something with than a pistol.
Andy
The Federal LE low recoil 00/000 buck rounds are awesome. Groups about fist size at 25yds through a cylinder choke on my M4. Nearly impossible to find now though.
The Federal LE low recoil 00/000 buck rounds are awesome. Groups about fist size at 25yds through a cylinder choke on my M4. Nearly impossible to find now though.
Yep, this stuff is the bomb. I stocked up many moons ago and I never shoot shotguns, which I should. But it's way down on my list in HD sitch. Cool shells though.
PB
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