View Full Version : Trigger question
chamber143
10-23-20, 07:11
I have a drop in trigger, a very expensive one at that and i love the trigger. Only peeve is that the trigger pin likes to walk a good ways to where one side is out pretty far and the other is below flush. I have a 1000 round 2 day course this weekend and i am worried to death it going to walk all the way out. I have never had a trigger pin as much as move before this trigger. It is said that these triggers will move on the pin until it finds a point of no friction, maybe so but i dont like it. Is anyone else’s trigger pins do this. Yes i have contacted manufacturer and they were very helpful and said the pin was doing its job. I dont want a pissing match, i just finally broke down and bought what is considered one of the best triggers on the market and have been left under whelmed with the pin movement, not the trigger. Lower is a Noveske gen 1 registered sbr lower and has been flawless and i had a pnt trigger that never moved if that helps.
bamashooter
10-23-20, 07:23
A pin designed to take a little stroll? How special. Slight rotation during firing is not uncommon What brand and model? Some triggers are suggested to use anti-rotation/walk pins. If time permits, I'd suggest purchasing a set. Perhaps clean the particular pin end well along with that area of the rcvr and put a dab of silicone there.
chamber143
10-23-20, 07:25
A pin designed to take a little stroll? How special. Slight rotation during firing is not uncommon What brand and model? Some triggers are suggested to use anti-rotation/walk pins. If time permits, I'd suggest purchasing a set. Perhaps clean the particular pin end well along with that area of the rcvr and put a dab of silicone there.
I am dumbfounded as well but i really dont want to put them on blast. They specifically warn against using anti rotation pins with their triggers if that helps
Sorry, just reread your post. You do have a drop in. In that case I have noting to offer. I'm not a fan of drop-in triggers for a couple of reasons, and that is one of them. Hope you get it fixed in time.
chamber143
10-23-20, 12:25
Sorry, just reread your post. You do have a drop in. In that case I have noting to offer. I'm not a fan of drop-in triggers for a couple of reasons, and that is one of them. Hope you get it fixed in time.
Maybe drop in isn’t correct terms. Its not a one piece. It has the trigger, hammer and disconnector and pins. It goes together just like milspec
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Do both pins have the center groove? Some pins have only a center or side groove. The pin with the center groove is the hammer pin (Front). The "J" spring in the hammer engages the center groove. Assuming it is a mil spec style trigger. You should feel the spring snap into the groove. It isn't uncommon for the pins to be lower in one side and slightly proud on the other side on a forged receiver. This is caused by the thickness of the receiver being different from on side to the other.
Do both pins have the center groove? Some pins have only a center or side groove. The pin with the center groove is the hammer pin (Front). The "J" spring in the hammer engages the center groove. Assuming it is a mil spec style trigger. You should feel the spring snap into the groove. It isn't uncommon for the pins to be lower in one side and slightly proud on the other side on a forged receiver. This is caused by the thickness of the receiver being different from on side to the other.
That's what my post (removed) was about too. You should remove the hammer and check to see if the pin is clicking in to the hammer pin detent/hold at the half way point. And you need to check that the hammer spring legs are in the notches on the trigger pin. Those two things are necessary for the pins to stay in. And they will stay in perfectly if you get everything right.
This short video shows what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_SEztJ0Usk
BTW - Gen 1 Noveske is standard forged, I have some.
chamber143
10-23-20, 13:44
The hammer pin doesn’t move at all and yes the legs sit on one side of the trigger pin.
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The hammer pin doesn’t move at all and yes the legs sit on one side of the trigger pin.
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The hammer spring legs should straddle the trigger, one on the pin on each side of the trigger.
The legs need to seat into the groove(s) on either end of the trigger pin. The trigger pin should have a groove on one end or both ends. That is what keeps the trigger pin from moving side to side. Get a super bright light and you should be able see the leg(s) of the hammer pin, and at least one should be in a groove on the trigger pin.
Were both pins walking?
Which pin was walking?
Here is a Geissele trigger pin. One leg of the hammer spring must be in the groove indicated with the arrow. The other leg of the hammer spring must be on the pin on the other side, even if there is no groove. You don't use the center groove for the trigger. The center groove is what the hammer uses to center on the pin, but it sounds like you are GTG with the hammer.
64107
chamber143
10-23-20, 17:24
The hammer spring legs should straddle the trigger, one on the pin on each side of the trigger.
The legs need to seat into the groove(s) on either end of the trigger pin. The trigger pin should have a groove on one end or both ends. That is what keeps the trigger pin from moving side to side. Get a super bright light and you should be able see the leg(s) of the hammer pin, and at least one should be in a groove on the trigger pin.
Were both pins walking?
Which pin was walking?
Here is a Geissele trigger pin. One leg of the hammer spring must be in the groove indicated with the arrow. The other leg of the hammer spring must be on the pin on the other side, even if there is no groove. You don't use the center groove for the trigger. The center groove is what the hammer uses to center on the pin, but it sounds like you are GTG with the hammer.
64107
Ok here’s the deal. It’s a geiselle ssa. Awesome trigger. The trigger pin walks toward the side that the groove is on no matter what orientation it is. I even tried switching the trigger pin and hammer pin to see if that mattered but I doesn’t. The hammer pin does stick out a little but stopped and hasn’t moved anymore. The trigger pin is the issue. It hasn’t walked all the way out yet but it will get to where the groove on the end can’t go any further without coming out. As much as I love the feel of the trigger, this is on my fighting rifle and I don’t like the thought of it coming out. I’m anal about shit like this. I will run it through my class tomorrow and Sunday and if it’s gtg through 1000-1200 rounds than I’ll just love with it. Geiselle did say that they have a slightly oversized pin that has notched on both sides if I need that. I didn’t think the receiver holes were large because I have a BCM PNT and the pins didn’t move one bit. As much as that trigger is infinity better than the milspec trigger, the SSA is night and day better than both. So it would suck to go back to the PNT.
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jackblack73
10-23-20, 17:56
A pic would help diagnose the issue. Maybe the hammer spring is installed backwards (commonly done) so it’s not exerting enough force on the pin. I’m not sure if you’ve fired your rifle with the new trigger yet, but if the spring is installed backwards it could lead to light primer strikes as well.
chamber143
10-23-20, 18:32
A pic would help diagnose the issue. Maybe the hammer spring is installed backwards (commonly done) so it’s not exerting enough force on the pin. I’m not sure if you’ve fired your rifle with the new trigger yet, but if the spring is installed backwards it could lead to light primer strikes as well.
It’s installed correctly. Yes I have already fired about 200 through it and it stays but my it gets so far out one side that I’m worried it will come all the way out. Like I stated I’m going to run it hard tomorrow and Sunday and see what happens. I always bring two spare rifles to my classes as backups but never needed them. Hopefully the trend continues.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/60cd897e427327522d231adfd5ada64b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/4643424a01575845790ab9de802bcf09.jpg
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bamashooter
10-23-20, 18:48
Now that we know the trigger, check the J-spring. If you googled, you see you're not alone with this issue with that particular anamoly.
chamber143
10-23-20, 18:56
Now that we know the trigger, check the J-spring. If you googled, you see you're not alone with this issue with that particular anamoly.
Where is the j spring at? Can’t seem to get my Google fu to work
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J spring? Its the spring that keeps the hammer pin centered. Its like a detent that fits in the groove in the middle of the hammer pin. Earlier, I think you said it held the pin in tightly.
I would take up Geissele's offer to send you a slightly larger pin with a groove on each side, if I were you.
It doesn't look like the pin is going to fall out, maybe you could show us the other side of the receiver?
Also, you could install it in a different receiver to see if that's the problem.
EDIT: You said that what ever side the trigger pin groove is on, is the direction the pin moves? Do both pins always move in the same direction when this happens? Did Geissele offer any possible explanations for what is happening.
I would get that double grooved oversized pin from them and try it.
crosseyedshooter
10-23-20, 21:28
It’s installed correctly. Yes I have already fired about 200 through it and it stays but my it gets so far out one side that I’m worried it will come all the way out. Like I stated I’m going to run it hard tomorrow and Sunday and see what happens. I always bring two spare rifles to my classes as backups but never needed them. Hopefully the trend continues.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/60cd897e427327522d231adfd5ada64b.jpg
If this photo is showing as far out as the pins go, then I don't see a problem. As long as the hammer spring is properly tensioned and one leg is sitting in the groove of the trigger pin, the trigger pin will stop as soon as the leg of the hammer spring meets the inside of your receiver wall. This could just be tolerances between the length of the pins, location of grooves and your receiver dimensions.
I can wiggle the pins on my SSA slightly with light finger pressure, but they don’t walk out. Like the post above me I wouldn’t worry if the photo you shared is the extent of the walking. Mine hasn’t come out in over 4k rounds
chamber143
10-24-20, 06:23
If this photo is showing as far out as the pins go, then I don't see a problem. As long as the hammer spring is properly tensioned and one leg is sitting in the groove of the trigger pin, the trigger pin will stop as soon as the leg of the hammer spring meets the inside of your receiver wall. This could just be tolerances between the length of the pins, location of grooves and your receiver dimensions.
This photo was just showing the hammer because I know that many were saying maybe I had it on backwards. It will move about twice this far out. I just constantly push it back in during breaks of fire
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chamber143
10-24-20, 06:28
If this photo is showing as far out as the pins go, then I don't see a problem. As long as the hammer spring is properly tensioned and one leg is sitting in the groove of the trigger pin, the trigger pin will stop as soon as the leg of the hammer spring meets the inside of your receiver wall. This could just be tolerances between the length of the pins, location of grooves and your receiver dimensions.
This is somewhat my thoughts too. The problem i see is that the legs are naturally bent inwards due to the strength of the spring so the pin will move the distance the legs will. On my other triggers when the hammer is not installed the legs are parallel with each other and the Geissele they are angles toward each other. So with other triggers the legs dont want to move one way or another but the geiselle wants to move back to the center allowing the pin to move that same distance if that makes any sense. In my head it doesn’t sound like its coming out right but i hope you guys understand.
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Your last post explained the issue to me. You can try another hammer spring that has the legs sitting parallel to inside receiver walls, or spread the current spring.
Another thing; in one photo I see the ends of the hammer spring being pushed towards middle of lower receiver by the curves, wondering if the ends of the hammer spring are too long. If this is the case, I would trim an eighth of an inch off the ends/legs. As long as spring legs are resting on trigger pin, should be fine.
Mark
chamber143
10-24-20, 11:05
300 hundred rounds in this morning and it seems to have settled here. Not sure I like it but it seems to have stayed. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201024/fea2a5f7812fa424d2aed23c5cad1608.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201024/d6109c03b59fb00a3a7bfaeb5d30ae17.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201024/60f6bff375ded7d6cac35eb156b29c4b.jpg
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chamber143
10-24-20, 11:30
Your last post explained the issue to me. You can try another hammer spring that has the legs sitting parallel to inside receiver walls, or spread the current spring.
Another thing; in one photo I see the ends of the hammer spring being pushed towards middle of lower receiver by the curves, wondering if the ends of the hammer spring are too long. If this is the case, I would trim an eighth of an inch off the ends/legs. As long as spring legs are resting on trigger pin, should be fine.
Mark
I tried to spread them apart the other day and they are biased to want to gravitate back to the middle. It seems to have held but it is a little to much for me. I am going to finish this class and then address it when I get home. I freaking love the feel of the trigger though.
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Try a three-groove trigger pin? Having both legs of the spring in a groove might center it better?
https://www.leesmags.com/assets/images/LK-5SS.jpg
chamber143
10-24-20, 11:40
Try a three-groove trigger pin? Having both legs of the spring in a groove might center it better?
https://www.leesmags.com/assets/images/LK-5SS.jpg
I’m waiting to hear back from geiselle about the three groove. I think it would do better
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Doesn't look right, the spring leg on the right hand side does not appear to be seated properly.
64118
You may need to pull the hammer and make sure the legs are slightly splayed out right and left. This is one of my SSAs, notice the legs go all the way to the receiver on both sides, and slip between the trigger and receiver. I don't know if it will help but my pins don't move. Its a Noveske Gen 2 receiver.
64119
EDIT: Oops, I saw the additional pictures, and I see why the leg of the hammer spring looks out of place, the pins really do look like they are falling out!
I think the extra groove might help, but it's really unclear to what would cause that.
You said that when you turn the pin the other way the problem moves to the other side? Is that correct?
(I posted this before the EDIT I made above)
The only other thing I can think of is that your receiver is just slightly narrow in the trigger pocket, and the Geissele trigger pack slightly wider than your old one. This would disallow the hammer spring leg from falling between the receiver and trigger, and would be an example of tolerance stacking. Its also possible the pocket is too big too.
If you can get a caliper, you can measure the width of the trigger pocket, and the wall thickness of the receiver and check it against spec. which is online somewhere.
OR another possible problem: The spring leg is not engaging the groove in the trigger pin. That could be caused by improper machining of the trigger or a bent leg of the hammer spring.
Take a thin knife and see if you can move the hammer spring leg side to side, or if it gets hung in the groove of the trigger pin as it should. Then do the same thing while pulling the trigger back. I'm not going to try to explain why, but if its not giving resistance in either case it could be a machining problem.
Pull the hammer and make sure the hammer spring is not bent in some way.
That's all I got man, I'm out of ideas.
From the picture it looks like the right hammer spring leg is actually resting on the trigger, not the the trigger pin.
You got me thinking about this. I'm gonna order 4 of them to add to my parts.
64120
From the picture it looks like the right hammer spring leg is actually resting on the trigger, not the the trigger pin.
I know, its hard to tell. I suggested he take an thin knife and try to push it over to find out if its in the groove.
I know, its hard to tell. I suggested he take an thin knife and try to push it over to find out if its in the groove.The trigger pin channel actually has 2 flat spots at the edges. I'm pretty sure he's got the hammer spring leg resting on the right ledge/flat area.
chamber143
10-25-20, 19:30
Doesn't look right, the spring leg on the right hand side does not appear to be seated properly.
64118
You may need to pull the hammer and make sure the legs are slightly splayed out right and left. This is one of my SSAs, notice the legs go all the way to the receiver on both sides, and slip between the trigger and receiver. I don't know if it will help but my pins don't move. Its a Noveske Gen 2 receiver.
64119
EDIT: Oops, I saw the additional pictures, and I see why the leg of the hammer spring looks out of place, the pins really do look like they are falling out!
I think the extra groove might help, but it's really unclear to what would cause that.
You said that when you turn the pin the other way the problem moves to the other side? Is that correct?
Yes it does. I misspoke, they gravitate away from the side with the groove and the only thing that stops that pin from walking all the way out is that the legs can’t move anymore to the middle due to the hammer pin in the groove. It’s doing it’s job and stopping it from moving all the way out but I do not like it.
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chamber143
10-25-20, 19:31
From the picture it looks like the right hammer spring leg is actually resting on the trigger, not the the trigger pin.
I can start the pin in the dead middle and the hammer pin in the groove. Dry fire it maybe 20 times and this is where it goes.
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chamber143
10-25-20, 19:32
You got me thinking about this. I'm gonna order 4 of them to add to my parts.
64120
Those are for the g2s. I wonder what the difference is? This is an SSA
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I can start the pin in the dead middle and the hammer pin in the groove. Dry fire it maybe 20 times and this is where it goes.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI understand. I'm saying that the hammer spring leg is resting on the trigger ledge, not the pin as it should be. As others have said, it may be due to the receiver being a hair narrow, or you may be able to just push the spring leg over to the right while pushing the trigger to the left and see if the leg drops onto the pin.
chamber143
10-25-20, 22:54
I know it looks that way but i think it is the angle. I can assure you guys it is sitting in the ledge. I did notice this though. Someone suggested to measure some stuff so when i got home from the training i broke it down and cleaned it really well and noticed that the reciever was considerably thicker on one side. The thicker side was the side that the pin was recessing in. I turned the pin so that it will gravitate towards the thicker side and it doesnt "look" like it is sticking out very far and may just be "somewhat normal". I am not sure as I will continue to shoot the piss out of it and see what it does.
chamber143
10-25-20, 22:56
I know it looks that way but i think it is the angle. I can assure you guys it is sitting in the ledge. I did notice this though. Someone suggested to measure some stuff so when i got home from the training i broke it down and cleaned it really well and noticed that the reciever was considerably thicker on one side. The thicker side was the side that the pin was recessing in. I turned the pin so that it will gravitate towards the thicker side and it doesnt "look" like it is sticking out very far and may just be "somewhat normal". I am not sure as I will continue to shoot the piss out of it and see what it does.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201026/6b4783f47fd6b61bcb571451d51609a4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201026/e074b83ef9dc8ce59c5c988cde066b48.jpg
Here’s some photos
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chamber143
10-25-20, 22:56
Thanks everyone for the reply’s. It made a difference. Grateful to have the knowledge on this board.
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201026/6b4783f47fd6b61bcb571451d51609a4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201026/e074b83ef9dc8ce59c5c988cde066b48.jpg
Here’s some photos
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That is nowhere near the maximum thickness difference allowed by the drawings.
In fact, at only 0.005" is pretty well centered.
Have you talked to Geissele about this?
chamber143
10-26-20, 07:26
That is nowhere near the maximum thickness difference allowed by the drawings.
In fact, at only 0.005" is pretty well centered.
Have you talked to Geissele about this?
I have and I am waiting to hear what they suggest. I really want to use the three channel pin to keep it centered but I who knows what they will say. They have been pretty responsive so far so we will see
chamber143
10-26-20, 09:17
Response from Geissele was that this is purely aesthetics and that this happens when a trigger prefers one side of the receiver or another and that the legs are retaining the trigger pin and that it is doing its job. ??? I will take them at their word and see what happens in the future but I can tell you that I don't like how it looks. It doesn't have much further to go before it completely clears one side of the receiver but hey whatever. I have a larue that didn't do this and very well may go back into it. They feel very similar and I don't like pins moving.
Take the hammer spring out and post a photo of it. If you can lay another one next to it, even better.
I posted a picture from Geissele's site of the 3 groove pins you can buy. The SKU number is in the picture, you can go to their site and find the pins. They are expensive (typical Geissele), but I think you should consider buying them. I'm not sure if they will help, but the three grooves might give you peace of mind. you only need to use one pin and you can keep the other as a spare.
Picture is in post 29 here>>>> https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?226396-Trigger-question&p=2895538#post2895538
I do have one solution, I saw this recently LOL Click for larger image....
64145
EDIT: I just found out that Geissele wants $12 to send an $18 set of trigger pins to me. I'm complaining, it'll be interesting to see what they say.
The outboard groove in the pins might be mis-located
I use milspec hammer springs (Colt), and they must be squeezed together to go down into the receiver, and they drag the inside walls of the receiver all the way down until they drop into the trigger pin groove. Either two groove (Colt) or three groove (ALG) pins. The spring legs remain tight to the inside walls and there is zero movement in the pins in either direction.
I posted a picture from Geissele's site of the 3 groove pins you can buy. The SKU number is in the picture, you can go to their site and find the pins. They are expensive (typical Geissele), but I think you should consider buying them. I'm not sure if they will help, but the three grooves might give you peace of mind. you only need to use one pin and you can keep the other as a spare.
Picture is in post 29 here>>>> https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?226396-Trigger-question&p=2895538#post2895538
I do have one solution, I saw this recently LOL Click for larger image....
64145
EDIT: I just found out that Geissele wants $12 to send an $18 set of trigger pins to me. I'm complaining, it'll be interesting to see what they say.
Gorilla tape for the win! Well done. LOL. Another option is to point your finger directly at the pin and say "BAD PIN BAD PIN", and see if it gets better.
OK let me explain, When I was a kid waiting tables in a high end Resturant, some tool said " I have a bad Potato!!! " I gave that potato a good scalding and said let me know if you have anymore trouble. Then scurried off to get him another tator before I lost my job. Sorry for the drift.
PB
fishindogwood
11-15-20, 08:59
If you’re ordering a set of those 3 groove pins and already paying the shipping, why not also get another spring for comparison. I definitely would be.
Gorilla tape for the win! Well done. LOL. Another option is to point your finger directly at the pin and say "BAD PIN BAD PIN", and see if it gets better.
OK let me explain, When I was a kid waiting tables in a high end Resturant, some tool said " I have a bad Potato!!! " I gave that potato a good scalding and said let me know if you have anymore trouble. Then scurried off to get him another tator before I lost my job. Sorry for the drift.
PB
Sounds like something I would have done in my younger and more rebellious days! Very funny.
I had the same problem with that trigger in my Colt, I think in my case the holes might be out of spec ever so slightly.
I've been using anti rotation pins for a few years and have never had a problem with them but the 3 groove pins makes sense and I might order some to see if it helps.
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I think Giessele pins are slightly oversized. Might want to give them a try.
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