View Full Version : Safes
doc_ralston
10-24-20, 16:50
What is the best gun safe to accommodate AR 15's? I can't remember the supposed capacity of my safe, but I have three ARs and a Remington 11 – 87, and I am pretty much out of room.
minuteman1636
10-24-20, 16:56
I need a new safe and have been looking at 'Liberty' brand safes.
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American Securities Burglary & Fire Series is top shelf for the $$$$
AMSEC B&F
Artos tells no lies. You have to decide what you want, bomb proof and a professional thief would struggle or just something ( not cheap) but to keep tweakers out.
Lesser expensive ones are movable, not cheap but 500lb ish. You can still bolt down but not as good for a longer fire.
The American Security, Rhino ..I have an Am Sec and my buddy has a Rhino and they are not going anywhere, way too heavy. Very high quality, cost nearly double.
The Browning, Cannon from ( Sportsman Warehouse-Costco/Tractor Supply) go for $700 to $1,000 depending on size and I think the Cannon is great for the money.
I tend to favor the tweaker proof movable cheaper safes for most people.
If you are never moving and want the best, get the super high quality safes. I have both but think the Cannons are good enough.
Lastly, buy the biggest you can afford to store with space in your house, bc they fill up fast as you know.
PB
I have a Treadlok safe that I bought in 1996 when we moved to TN. IIRC it cost about $1K back then. It's a bigger one, not the skinny 4 or 5 gun size. It is not fireproof, and isn't "top of the line" by any means. Dial combination, not digital. Loaded down with guns and ammo it'd take two guys with a dolly to move it. It sits in my "gun room" underneath the front porch ("fruit cellar" or "root cellar" if you're from up North). I had a steel security door and frame with ~ 400lbs of concrete poured into the cinder blocks around it for strength. So it is a safe within a safe.
I also recall one of the selling points being that if the handle was beaten downward in an unsuccessful attempt to break into it that the locking lug cables would break and therefore leave the lugs frozen in "battery"
titsonritz
10-24-20, 21:39
Check out Sturdy Safe
https://www.sturdysafe.com/
titsonritz
10-24-20, 21:41
In the meantime, this may be a solution...
https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Storage-Solutions-Accessory-Organizer/dp/B07BVNPSWJ
BangBang01
10-24-20, 21:44
AMSEC does make some really good safes and like posted above it depends on exactly how much security your looking for, or if your needing storage. Fort Knox makes some pretty good safes as well. Where I’m located my Cannon Wide Body works well.
In the meantime, this may be a solution...
https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Storage-Solutions-Accessory-Organizer/dp/B07BVNPSWJ
I use Rifle Rods in my safes. They are awesome and dramatically improve safe organization and capacity.
RSC gun safes are not true security. A sawzall or similar will make short work of a typical RSC gun safe, even high end models professing to have better security.
If you own your home, don’t plan on moving soon, and have a floor that can accommodate a true high security safe (ie UL rated TL15 or better), I would recommend getting a high security safe. A concrete slab is the ideal, but piers under the floor can also be used.
I would find a local safe and vault shop and buy a used reconditioned composite TL15. It will end up costing you about the same as a higher end RSC.
Typical gunsafes are not really built for ARs, especially with optics, so they fill up pretty fast. The gun capacity from safe builders is either fiction or they mean Daisy Red Riders because there is no way the could hold the number of guns they claim to anyway.
I have been tempted to use SecureIt's gunsafe retrofit to make my humorously named 12 gun Liberty safe a little more AR friendly. https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/product-category/gun-storage-accessories/gun-safe-retrofit-kits/
Every time I get ready to order one, I remember I only have 1 AR and a couple pistols in that safe anyway. It's installed in our bedroom closet with a "big" safe somewhere else in the house.
I would encourage you to check out used gunsafes on Craigslist or Facebook before paying the frankly inflated prices for a new one. I think I paid $200 for a small Liberty gunsafe and $350 for my son's medium sized Browning Prosteel; both are in excellent condition.
Bigger gunsafes are heavy and not really practical to buy used from a private party.
Most gun "safes" are really glorified cabinets, but I only expect mine to discourage kids and crackheads. Not all of us can really deal with or need a TL-30 safe.
Andy
Just get a really big Liberty, I love mine.
Typical gunsafes are not really built for ARs, especially with optics, so they fill up pretty fast. The gun capacity from safe builders is either fiction or they mean Daisy Red Riders because there is no way the could hold the number of guns they claim to anyway.
I have been tempted to use SecureIt's gunsafe retrofit to make my humorously named 12 gun Liberty safe a little more AR friendly. https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/product-category/gun-storage-accessories/gun-safe-retrofit-kits/
Every time I get ready to order one, I remember I only have 1 AR and a couple pistols in that safe anyway. It's installed in our bedroom closet with a "big" safe somewhere else in the house.
I would encourage you to check out used gunsafes on Craigslist or Facebook before paying the frankly inflated prices for a new one. I think I paid $200 for a small Liberty gunsafe and $350 for my son's medium sized Browning Prosteel; both are in excellent condition.
Bigger gunsafes are heavy and not really practical to buy used from a private party.
Most gun "safes" are really glorified cabinets, but I only expect mine to discourage kids and crackheads. Not all of us can really deal with or need a TL-30 safe.
Andy
All safes need Rifle Rods. Traditional gun safe interiors suck. The SecureIt solution looks cumbersome and inefficient to me. Rifle Rods are the answer.
I agree about buying used, but recommend buying a used composite TL15 from a local safe and vault store. They will deliver usually for a nominal fee if you buy from them. These same vendors also typically move safes, so if you find one for sale you can arrange for it to be moved.
The vast majority of RSC gun safes are really not very secure and are easily defeated by common tools.
Grim.Patriot
10-25-20, 12:16
I have four American Security safes, split between my home “in-town” and a little ranch nestled up in the hills. Yes, it would take a great deal of work to get through the door, with all those locking bars, but I’m fairly sure any clown with a metal bladed circular saw could go through the sides or back. So, for me firearm security is a “layered” thing.
First both houses are occupied with full time residence. To get to a door of window, one has to go over a fence or past a locked gate. Then there is the motion sensor lights and obvious cameras. Once a door/window is opened, or motion, or glass break sensor trips, there is the alarm with lots of noise on-site and auto WiFi/cell call-out. A true professional thief could defeat all that, but there are plenty of easier targets down the street. Yes, it takes resource, time and energy to maintain and consistently use all that, but, like carrying a concealed firearm, it becomes a way of life. Never leave home without it.
I have four American Security safes, split between my home “in-town” and a little ranch nestled up in the hills. Yes, it would take a great deal of work to get through the door, with all those locking bars, but I’m fairly sure any clown with a metal bladed circular saw could go through the sides or back. So, for me firearm security is a “layered” thing.
First both houses are occupied with full time residence. To get to a door of window, one has to go over a fence or past a locked gate. Then there is the motion sensor lights and obvious cameras. Once a door/window is opened, or motion, or glass break sensor trips, there is the alarm with lots of noise on-site and auto WiFi/cell call-out. A true professional thief could defeat all that, but there are plenty of easier targets down the street. Yes, it takes resource, time and energy to maintain and consistently use all that, but, like carrying a concealed firearm, it becomes a way of life. Never leave home without it.
Yep, layered security is best. I still like a high security safe, especially since a used reconditioned composite TL15, TL30, and even TL30X6 can be had very reasonably. There is a somewhat local outfit with several hundred such safes. They do make moving a real PITA.
FYI:
I'm not a safe expert, but I have done a fair amount of research on the topic, and what follows may be of help to those looking at safes/gun safes. When it comes to safes (and the term "safe" we will get to shortly...) you truly get what you pay for. You don't have spend a fortune for a good container, but in my view, it makes no sense to protect expensive guns, your wife's jewelry, and essential documents in a "safe" gotten from the sporing goods store.
It's essential to understand what usually passes for a "safe" is nothing of the kind. Companies spend a lot of time on fancy paint jobs, impressive handles, and marketing to convince people they are getting a true safe. However, the vast majority of what's sold are Residential Security Container (RSCs)
Companies give you a shiny fancy looking door, etc, but at the end of the day it's at best RSC rated, and not a "safe" as viewed by anyone who actually knows/installs real safes. It's important to note, not all RSCs are created equal, but when you look at what the actual RSC UL rating means, it will make you cringe:
"UL rated safes that carry the RSC label offer protection from tool attacks against the door of the safe for five minutes. Safes that carry the TL-15 and TL-30 classification offer protection from tool attacks against the safe's door for 15 or 30 minutes, respectively. Safes rated TLTR-15 or TLTR-30 offer protection from tool and torch attacks against the door for 15 or 30 minutes, respectively. Safes that are rated TLTRX6-15 or TLTRX6-30 offer protection from tool and torch attacks against any part of the safe for either 15 or 30 minutes. Of course, the price increases with the protection level."
If what you have/are considering, is UL Rated (and I wouldn't buy it if were not, but that's me and if there are any real lock smiths/safe installers here who wish to comment/correct me, please do) look at the inside door panel, there should be a tag that lists its UL rating.
Another important issue, especially for gun safes, most companies use simple gypsum board is an insulator, which draws moisture. They may use fancy terms, but on opening a wall, its gypsum board.
Higher end safes will use a composite of some sort, that is better all around for both fire and security. To the best of my knowledge, only AMSEC uses a composite in the lower end BF series products for example which improves it's security as well as fire rating.
Budget is the essential issue here, as you can get a cheap 12g gun locker or a TL30 AMSEC gun safe, and much inbetween. It's often a good idea to decide on what to spend on a safe as a % of what it is you are trying to protect, as well as other factors, such as additional security (alarms, quality of locks, doors, etc, etc) but securing things yo don't want stolen means not putting it in a cheap metal box that's intended to prevent kids and "snatch and grab" types.
Second consideration is location, as a real safe has limitations where you can put it due to their weight and size.
As mentioned, not all RSCs are created equal. For example, the AMSEC BF series is as good as some companies B rates safes, etc.. and probably the best of the RSCs on the market.
Finally, no matter what you get, have it bolted down. I can't tell you how many times I have read about safes simply being carried off by a few guys with a hand truck, with the owner (ex owner!) always being shocked! If a few guys with a sturdy hand truck can get it in your house, what makes anyone believe the reverse is not true???
If you do everything right and it still gets broken into/taken away, 99.9%, it's an inside job and someone knew exactly what you had and came prepared, so pick your friends well!
If you have the budget and need to protect an expensive collection (and people willing to put their collection of fine guns into a cheap RSC are asking for trouble...). I believe AMSEC is the only company that makes a TL30 UL listed gun safe.
It's a monster...See:
http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm
That's my basic run down/advice on safes that comes from my research, discussions with many a safe installer, etc. Feel free to add your thoughts. I'm sure some of you can confirm what I said above about safes simply being taken away during your work experiences as LE.
via: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?51518-General-safe-gun-safe-info
Just a thought, my safe has a floor that the guns sit on that is elevated from the bottom of the safe, leaves a void. If one was concerned about making it more difficult to move the safe and are unable to bolt it down, one could fill that void with ingots of lead or some other dense material. A three hundred pound safe with 700 pounds of lead or tungsten (I know $) would increase the difficulty in moving it.
Just a thought, my safe has a floor that the guns sit on that is elevated from the bottom of the safe, leaves a void. If one was concerned about making it more difficult to move the safe and are unable to bolt it down, one could fill that void with ingots of lead or some other dense material. A three hundred pound safe with 700 pounds of lead or tungsten (I know $) would increase the difficulty in moving it.
It doesn't matter how heavy it is if they can get a lever under it. I moved my 900+ lb safe around by myself easily (fairly easily) with a few hundred pounds in it before I bolted it down. Bolting it down is really the only way to prevent someone moving it. If they can move it, they can get it to a place they can peel it or even get better leverage to pry the door open.
I even have my puny (14 ga) bedroom closet safe bolted down.
Andy
I worry way more about fire than I do theft...then again I've never had a break in & my home did burn up when I was in the 3rd grade & Dad lost all his guns.
Got big dogs / alarm, someone is almost always home & got good nosy neighbors...telling ya, it's fire that sucks as most crooks want in/out ASAP!! I have a pretty neat safe I found in a downtown warehouse that cost me more to move than what I paid. When the mover finally got it up on the HD dolly & was wenching it from garage to trailer, the wheels started plowing the asphalt & busted his whole set up. Had to come back days later with a new plan & man power. The hinges on my B&F are like a small broom handle vs a beer can on the Robust. I can't find any history on it & comes from Pretoria S. Africa...the D&T holes on the top for eye bolts / lift are at least and inch OD & my safe guy thinks it was made for storing diamonds. TL-30 & estimates are 4000-5000lbs. Walls are like 5" think & door is heavier than most standard safes.
It doesn't matter how heavy it is if they can get a lever under it. I moved my 900+ lb safe around by myself easily (fairly easily) with a few hundred pounds in it before I bolted it down. Bolting it down is really the only way to prevent someone moving it. If they can move it, they can get it to a place they can peel it or even get better leverage to pry the door open.
I even have my puny (14 ga) bedroom closet safe bolted down.
Andy
Yep. Having moved 500lb safes myself and having watched 2 ton safes get moved with relative ease by guys with the proper tools, moving a safe, even a real high security safe isn’t very hard.
hotrodder636
10-25-20, 21:11
Unless you are putting it on a concrete slab, pay close attention to weight and what you are going to fill it up with. You could easily run into floor loading issues if you are not careful.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-25-20, 21:49
I worry way more about fire than I do theft...then again I've never had a break in & my home did burn up when I was in the 3rd grade & Dad lost all his guns.
Got big dogs / alarm, someone is almost always home & got good nosy neighbors...telling ya, it's fire that sucks as most crooks want in/out ASAP!! I have a pretty neat safe I found in a downtown warehouse that cost me more to move than what I paid. When the mover finally got it up on the HD dolly & was wenching it from garage to trailer, the wheels started plowing the asphalt & busted his whole set up. Had to come back days later with a new plan & man power. The hinges on my B&F are like a small broom handle vs a beer can on the Robust. I can't find any history on it & comes from Pretoria S. Africa...the D&T holes on the top for eye bolts / lift are at least and inch OD & my safe guy thinks it was made for storing diamonds. TL-30 & estimates are 4000-5000lbs. Walls are like 5" think & door is heavier than most standard safes.
Had a buddy whose 'free' safe ended up being a white elephant, almost literally...
Had a buddy whose 'free' safe ended up being a white elephant, almost literally...
My guy said it was worth 10k to 12k...told him to find a buyer & I'll get another b&f...still waiting. I mostly worry about the occasional visitors fingers getting caught in the door. You cannot stop momentum.
I worry way more about fire than I do theft...then again I've never had a break in & my home did burn up when I was in the 3rd grade & Dad lost all his guns.
Got big dogs / alarm, someone is almost always home & got good nosy neighbors...telling ya, it's fire that sucks as most crooks want in/out ASAP!! I have a pretty neat safe I found in a downtown warehouse that cost me more to move than what I paid. When the mover finally got it up on the HD dolly & was wenching it from garage to trailer, the wheels started plowing the asphalt & busted his whole set up. Had to come back days later with a new plan & man power. The hinges on my B&F are like a small broom handle vs a beer can on the Robust. I can't find any history on it & comes from Pretoria S. Africa...the D&T holes on the top for eye bolts / lift are at least and inch OD & my safe guy thinks it was made for storing diamonds. TL-30 & estimates are 4000-5000lbs. Walls are like 5" think & door is heavier than most standard safes.
Sounds like a composite TL30x6. The door should be at least as thick as the walls if it’s a TL30x6. Also, the estimate you received would be for a new safe. A used reconditioned safe like that would be $4-8k depending upon size. Unless it’s a TRTL30x6 and then it may be more like $8-12k.
I think the Cannon is great for the money.
PB
After the fire I called them to see what was the best way to get into mine. After the rep made his suggestions he asked me to fax in some kind of proof of purchase and photos before and after opening. A few months go by and I get a call from a trucking company wanting to schedule a delivery. I was confused, okay nothing unusual, as I wasn't expecting anything. The driver backed down the driveway to drop off a replacement safe. The documentation said it was a warranty replacement for unit destroyed by fire.
Seems to be solid steel construction & walls are around 4" thick & door is thicker. It's dated back in the 80's if I recall & have only the TL30 UL reference. My safe guy says it could possibly have asbestos sandwiched in but he has never seen or heard of one. Robust by Bishoff. Took one heck of a boat ride to end up on the border.
Sounds like a composite TL30x6. The door should be at least as thick as the walls if it’s a TL30x6. Also, the estimate you received would be for a new safe. A used reconditioned safe like that would be $4-8k depending upon size. Unless it’s a TRTL30x6 and then it may be more like $8-12k.
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