View Full Version : ATF Interpretive Change Restricts Handgun Imports and May Require NFA Registration
ATF Interpretive Change Restricts Handgun Imports and May Require NFA Registration
https://comms.wiley.law/8/3583/october-2020/alert--atf-interpretive-change-restricts-handgun-imports-and-may-require-nfa-registration(2).asp
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has recently changed the manner in which it interprets the statutory and regulatory definition of “handgun,” thereby further limiting the types of firearms eligible for importation. These determinations are not public, so it is difficult for the regulated community to assess and track shifting agency positions...
In some of the new letters, ATF has begun listing the following “objective design features” when making its evaluations:
Incorporation of rifle sights;
Utilization of "rifle caliber ammunition" (both 5.56mm and 7.62mm have been considered as such);
Incorporation of “rifle-length barrel;”
The “weapon’s heavy weight;”
Ability to accept magazines that range in capacity from 20 rounds to 100 rounds, “which will contribute to the overall weight of the firearm”;
Overall length of the weapon which “creates a front-heavy imbalance when held in one hand.”
ATF Interpretive Change Restricts Handgun Imports and May Require NFA Registration
https://comms.wiley.law/8/3583/october-2020/alert--atf-interpretive-change-restricts-handgun-imports-and-may-require-nfa-registration(2).asp
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has recently changed the manner in which it interprets the statutory and regulatory definition of “handgun,” thereby further limiting the types of firearms eligible for importation. These determinations are not public, so it is difficult for the regulated community to assess and track shifting agency positions...
In some of the new letters, ATF has begun listing the following “objective design features” when making its evaluations:
Incorporation of rifle sights;
Utilization of "rifle caliber ammunition" (both 5.56mm and 7.62mm have been considered as such);
Incorporation of “rifle-length barrel;”
The “weapon’s heavy weight;”
Ability to accept magazines that range in capacity from 20 rounds to 100 rounds, “which will contribute to the overall weight of the firearm”;
Overall length of the weapon which “creates a front-heavy imbalance when held in one hand.”
This and the Honey Badger decision just makes me think they are getting warmed up for a Harris/Biden administration. Creating felons by decree.
Oh boy. More interpretations.
I love interpretations. It’s like you can make up whatever you want. Like an ink blot test.
Doesn’t matter about the law or constitution.
It’s like someone saying “It came to me in a dream” or “it was real in my mind”
Oh boy. More interpretations.
I love interpretations. It’s like you can make up whatever you want. Like an ink blot test.
Doesn’t matter about the law or constitution.
It’s like someone saying “It came to me in a dream” or “it was real in my mind”Yeah well, it's going to be a nightmare soon enough...
This and the Honey Badger decision just makes me think they are getting warmer up for a Harris/Biden administration. Creating felons by decree.
One day this will be played unironically and with a harsh meaning.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CYy-U4Xaq4
Yeah well, it's going to be a nightmare soon enough...
Hee hee you’re right but in the most delightfully wrong way
This and the Honey Badger decision just makes me think they are getting warmed up for a Harris/Biden administration. Creating felons by decree.
This confuses me. The director of the ATF was appointed in 2019 and is on the “Presidential Commission on Law Enforcement and the Administration of Justice”.
Can’t wait for the junior atf crowd to get all spun up on this and start flexing compliance accusations on the interwebs.
Per usual the correct response is indifference, defiance, and active usurpation.
The ATF is literally an evil .gov entity.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This confuses me. The director of the ATF was appointed in 2019 and is on the “Presidential Commission on Law Enforcement and the Administration of Justice”.
Which translates to pro enforcement, expansion of criminal statutes, and perpetuating the self licking ice cream cone nature of law enforcement under the guise of expanding public safety targeted policies.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This and the Honey Badger decision just makes me think they are getting warmed up for a Harris/Biden administration. Creating felons by decree.
Just remember, if everyone is a felon then nobody is a felon.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Which translates to pro enforcement, expansion of criminal statutes, and perpetuating the self licking ice cream cone nature of law enforcement under the guise of expanding public safety targeted policies.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My point was this has nothing to do with the ATF “warming up for a Biden administration”. The current one also accepts their shenanigans.
Evel Baldgui
10-26-20, 20:30
Ah yes, the ATF, a bunch of pathetic bureaucratic cunts held over from the obama administration ....fire them all ffs. This is the only "LE" agency that should be defunded.
why they consider themselves a legislative body is beyond me.
BoringGuy45
10-26-20, 20:30
F**k the ATF. Seriously. They're also racist. Like actual racist. At my old store, we had an ATF agent (not inspector; actual criminal investigator) stop in once to "say hi". He told us flat out that the ATF does NOT trust black gun owners, and keeps a close eye on them. He told us not be afraid to report any black customers to them, as "they're usually up to no good." I'm not making that story up.
My point was this has nothing to do with the ATF “warming up for a Biden administration”. The current one also accepts their shenanigans.
Also accurate. Don Jr. has totally done us a solid on this front [emoji849]
In any case the appointed ATF director was a hack
from the get go.
Another classic government example of a gov org mucking things up to both stay relevant and expand their mandate.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
F**k the ATF. Seriously. They're also racist. Like actual racist. At my old store, we had an ATF agent (not inspector; actual criminal investigator) stop in once to "say hi". He told us flat out that the ATF does NOT trust black gun owners, and keeps a close eye on them. He told us not be afraid to report any black customers to them, as "they're usually up to no good." I'm not making that story up.
F**k the ATF. Seriously. They're also racist. Like actual racist. At my old store, we had an ATF agent (not inspector; actual criminal investigator) stop in once to "say hi". He told us flat out that the ATF does NOT trust black gun owners, and keeps a close eye on them. He told us not be afraid to report any black customers to them, as "they're usually up to no good." I'm not making that story up.
Fun fact the ATF onboards most all their gun carrier personnel under schedule B authority which basically permits sidestepping a lot of the OPM hiring competitive red tape and EEO laws in practice in order to hire desired candidates with the backgrounds they want, veterans primarily.
They function with little oversight in most field offices and are mostly a bunch of cavalier assholes. So I wouldn’t put your claim outside the scope of not surprising.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ATF moving to make AR/AK pistols into AOWs to cover them by NFA.
https://youtu.be/u87NIIvofjU
El Pistolero
10-26-20, 20:47
Well if this becomes law I’m putting stocks on my AR pistols.
Can’t wait for the junior atf crowd to get all spun up on this and start flexing compliance accusations on the interwebs.
Per usual the correct response is indifference, defiance, and active usurpation.
The ATF is literally an evil .gov entity.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Waffen Judenrat does more in a day than ATF does in a year
F**k the ATF. Seriously. They're also racist. Like actual racist. At my old store, we had an ATF agent (not inspector; actual criminal investigator) stop in once to "say hi". He told us flat out that the ATF does NOT trust black gun owners, and keeps a close eye on them. He told us not be afraid to report any black customers to them, as "they're usually up to no good." I'm not making that story up.
Wonder where the good old boys roundup moved to?
https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-1995-07-23-9507230002-story.html
A bunch of fu@ktards, Literally the whole organization summed up.
The Waffen Judenrat does more in a day than ATF does in a year
I chortled heartily
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
10-26-20, 21:35
Are ya winning, son?
Are ya winning, son?
More than we may be in a week and change...
Oh boy. More interpretations.
I love interpretations. It’s like you can make up whatever you want. Like an ink blot test.
Doesn’t matter about the law or constitution.
It’s like someone saying “It came to me in a dream” or “it was real in my mind”
So long as the sentence "The ATF has determined..." can result in new laws that may or may not even contradict ATF specific definitions, there is no stopping them.
And AGAIN for anyone who hasn't heard me say it 100 times yet...this ALL comes from the "sporting clause" within the 1968 Gun Control Act. It's what allows ATF to determine if a particular firearm has a "sporting application or not" and it's really just guidelines rather than hard and fast rules they must adhere to in order to make a determination.
If we could just get the sporting clause struck from the 68 GCA, all of this romper room nonsense would vanish. No more 922r, no more domestic vs foreign manufacture, no more 89 import ban and quite honestly no more restrictions of imported machine guns post 68 or domestic machine guns post 86.
If people put the effort they put into crying about bump stocks and arm braces into getting rid of the sporter clause, nobody would need a bump stock or arm brace.
Are ya winning, son?
Not since Reagan, but people even dispute that.
Unbelievable. Another rogue agency completely ignoring Trump and the will of the electorate.
Diamondback
10-27-20, 01:46
If people put the effort they put into crying about bump stocks and arm braces into getting rid of the sporter clause, nobody would need a bump stock or arm brace.
Other than for State level BS. For example, in WA a Mk 18 pistol is legal for loaded carry in a vehicle with a carry permit, an SBR is not. And then there's the "Mother May I" bullshit having to apply for a permission slip to take your SBR across state lines... the AR pistol does have its small niche for cases like that.
Well if this becomes law I’m putting stocks on my AR pistols.
Irish democracy? Don't mind if I do.
Oh boy. More interpretations.
I love interpretations. It’s like you can make up whatever you want. Like an ink blot test.
Doesn’t matter about the law or constitution.
It’s like someone saying “It came to me in a dream” or “it was real in my mind”
Someone saying they have an "idea" I can handle to some extent, even if I don't like the idea.
Politicians almost always want to tell you about their "vision". I have to assume they really are having visions which means they are "seeing shit" and don't need to be running around loose, much less with a say in anything.
It's BS and I'm certainly not pleased about it. On the other hand, this affects imports and the ATF has been allowed to disapprove or approve imports seemingly at will for some time. Since there are no real injured parties, who will take them to court to force importation of a certain firearm?
The whole HoneyBadger issue concerns me more but it's also ripe for a lawsuit. There may be injured parties and the ATF appears to be turning lawful citizens into felons.
Of course Steyr AUG is correct about the sporting purposes clause. Equally as damaging is allowing the ATF to make fluid and vague determinations that can turn a lawful gun owner into a felon with the swipe of a pen.
The ATF and their wealthy buddies know the cannot ban AR/AK pistols across the board, so they will start chiseling. One firearms manufacturer or importer at a time, actions that are not subject to public purview or the freedom of information act, actions that can avoid legal oversight with a simple letter.
Andy
Averageman
10-27-20, 08:08
Who did you vote for to be the head of the BATFE?
And yet, they can legislate?
Sorry, but right after we throw everyone out of the FBI Building, lets just go pay these guys a visit.
Nightvisionary
10-27-20, 08:23
Ah yes, the ATF, a bunch of pathetic bureaucratic cunts held over from the obama administration ....fire them all ffs. This is the only "LE" agency that should be defunded.
why they consider themselves a legislative body is beyond me.
https://thearmoredpatrol.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/donald-trump-wrong-meme-debate-wrong.jpg?w=656
Unbelievable. Another rogue agency completely ignoring Trump and the will of the electorate.
Ignoring "Get the guns first; due process later." Trump? That Trump?
No .gov "official" is on your side.
In the more general sense, one can see the moves being put in place in advance. Kammy says she wants a basic semi-auto AR-15 registered under NFA. Now, we see what ATF will do. The blind innocents, who argue with anyone who says "Registration is the forerunner of confiscation" will get hit in the forehead. I suppose some still won't "get it." The current move highlights the precedent, so the ATF can just "issue a letter" to change everything.
The acting head of ATF is a long time apparatchik. Trumps anti gun pick to replace her was withdrawn when some Senators balked his anti civilian ownership views. My guess is she and her staff are virtue signaling to Biden/Harris in order to keep their jobs.
If this flies, it will be applied to domestic firearms too.
Easily fixed though by removing front foregrip.
ChattanoogaPhil
10-27-20, 10:52
If a bump stock can be interpreted as to meet the GCA definition of machinegun then pretty much anything goes. And that wasn't anti-gun ATF's doings, it was top-down from Trump to the DOJ with the blessings of the NRA. At the time I said it was one of the most egregious actions (related to gun control) from the executive branch doing an end-run around Congress, and set the stage for more to come. Welcome to the 'interpretive' future.
If a bump stock can be interpreted as to meet the GCA definition of machinegun then pretty much anything goes. And that wasn't anti-gun ATF's doings, it was top-down from Trump to the DOJ with the blessings of the NRA. At the time I said it was one of the most egregious actions (related to gun control) from the executive branch doing an end-run around Congress, and set the stage for more to come. Welcome to the 'interpretive' future.
Yep. Absolutely insane. It’s a MG because they say so, not because it meets the criteria of a MG. And at the heart of it, 922(o) and 925(d)(3) are unconstitutional and illegal.
Yep. Absolutely insane. It’s a MG because they say so, not because it meets the criteria of a MG. And at the heart of it, 922(o) and 922(l) are unconstitutional and illegal.
FIFY-
Of course Steyr AUG is correct about the sporting purposes clause. Equally as damaging is allowing the ATF to make fluid and vague determinations that can turn a lawful gun owner into a felon with the swipe of a pen.
In case you weren't certain, the "sporting purpose" clause is what gives ATF the ability to make those vague determinations. Take that away and they have to strictly abide by definitions, they have no room for interpretation because there is nothing to interpret.
It would literally become a matter of "is this a taxable and regulated item?" and if so "has the tax been paid." Firearms would be treated pretty much like alcohol and tobacco and simply regulated.
Diamondback
10-27-20, 18:36
In case you weren't certain, the "sporting purpose" clause is what gives ATF the ability to make those vague determinations. Take that away and they have to strictly abide by definitions, they have no room for interpretation because there is nothing to interpret.
It would literally become a matter of "is this a taxable and regulated item?" and if so "has the tax been paid." Firearms would be treated pretty much like alcohol and tobacco and simply regulated.
Problem is, we need a Triple Crown to get there, with a legislator up on the arcana enough to grasp its significance and effective enough to con 500 walking wastes of viable transplant organs to go along with it.
Problem is, we need a Triple Crown to get there, with a legislator up on the arcana enough to grasp its significance and effective enough to con 500 walking wastes of viable transplant organs to go along with it.
Yep, and the last time anyone did anything to the 68 GCA was all the way back in 1986 and nobody remembers any of the good parts.
But it would be nice if some kind of national body, like perhaps a huge firearm association, could direct everyone's awareness and energy to the fact that it is the "sporter clause" within the 1968 GCA that is causing all these problems.
Seems that 19 out of 20 NRA members don't even know it's a thing.
Diamondback
10-27-20, 18:54
Yep, and the last time anyone did anything to the 68 GCA was all the way back in 1986 and nobody remembers any of the good parts.
But it would be nice if some kind of national body, like perhaps a huge firearm association, could direct everyone's awareness and energy to the fact that it is the "sporter clause" within the 1968 GCA that is causing all these problems.
Seems that 19 out of 20 NRA members don't even know it's a thing.
So... Door #1, Kevin at Q needs to put a bug in Eric or Don Jr's ear. Door #2, we find a way to lop off Wayne's Wankers and get somebody to lead NRA who isn't into Failure Theater and announce that repeal of Sporter Clause will be a Scored Vote, and anything less than full support means bye-bye endorsement.
Don't comply, problem solved.
Yep, and the last time anyone did anything to the 68 GCA was all the way back in 1986 and nobody remembers any of the good parts.
But it would be nice if some kind of national body, like perhaps a huge firearm association, could direct everyone's awareness and energy to the fact that it is the "sporter clause" within the 1968 GCA that is causing all these problems.
Seems that 19 out of 20 NRA members don't even know it's a thing.
I’m not convinced said 19 out of 20 NRA members do not otherwise support restrictions on all the bougie stuff we love. Sometimes our worst enemies are of our own doing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep, and the last time anyone did anything to the 68 GCA was all the way back in 1986 and nobody remembers any of the good parts.
But it would be nice if some kind of national body, like perhaps a huge firearm association, could direct everyone's awareness and energy to the fact that it is the "sporter clause" within the 1968 GCA that is causing all these problems.
Seems that 19 out of 20 NRA members don't even know it's a thing.
Probably because they stumped for it in the first place and claiming to fight it's effects have put a lot of clothes on someone's back.
Don't comply, problem solved.This x 1000
Everyone at the ATF can sit their tyrannical ass on a cactus.
I bet they didn't verify if the weapons they gave to cartels during Fast and Furious were 922 compliant or had barrels 16" or more in length.
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
FVCK the ATF, they are bunch of cucks and rent boys.
What I would do if I were in a position of power...
I'd gut the federal alphabet agencies by 95%. Off with their heads. First I'd completely completely axe the ATF, FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS- then I would cut up the IRS like an 80's slasher flick and completely annihilate the Fed Reserve.
Anyone from the top down to the street in any of those agencies would be banned from any form of government work or contracting for life and some would be castrated just to drive the point home and I'd throw in a crucifixion or two just to make Flyman happy.
We need to go on the offensive with killing the sporter clause and then keep pushing to eliminate all 2A infringements. It's always a defensive position for the 2A, when it is one of the most clearly defined and thought out amendments/Rights we have, it's such bullshit and I am so tired of it.
If I were President I would undo just about every former presidents EO's before me and then EO the shit out of everything to get back to a lean and mean minimalist/Constituional Republic.
The ATF interpretations are just sickening. I shall not comply with one single thing they have to say.
I’m not convinced said 19 out of 20 NRA members do not otherwise support restrictions on all the bougie stuff we love. Sometimes our worst enemies are of our own doing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That factors, but "sporter clause" hits everyone. It what prevents imported pocket pistols which cheeses off the CCW guys. Only recently were we able to get .380 Glocks and you still can't bring in a legit PPK.
Also prevents the import of some semi auto shotguns which gets into Fudd territory a little bit.
It's what ended imports of 7N6 and almost caused the end of similar 5.56 ammo. And that hit's shooters mostly across the board.
It rarely effects NFA stuff because they are already regulated. Really doesn't impact ARs because all of them are domestic production. But it did provide the basis for bump stocks, could allow for a ban on arm braces and things of that nature.
I really do think 19 out of 20 are just poorly informed gun people who are incapable of independent research and would honestly rather post "Damn ATF messing with my rights" stuff across the internet than seek out the root of the problem and propose and pursue solutions.
Nobody even knew what the Heller case was until after it was won. Then it was all "WOOO HOOO! [insert favorite NFL team here] won superbowl!!!!!"
FVCK the ATF, they are bunch of cucks and rent boys.
What I would do if I were in a position of power...
I'd gut the federal alphabet agencies by 95%. Off with their heads. First I'd completely completely axe the ATF, FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS- then I would cut up the IRS like an 80's slasher flick and completely annihilate the Fed Reserve.
Anyone from the top down to the street in any of those agencies would be banned from any form of government work or contracting for life and some would be castrated just to drive the point home and I'd throw in a crucifixion or two just to make Flyman happy.
We need to go on the offensive with killing the sporter clause and then keep pushing to eliminate all 2A infringements. It's always a defensive position for the 2A, when it is one of the most clearly defined and thought out amendments/Rights we have, it's such bullshit and I am so tired of it.
If I were President I would undo just about every former presidents EO's before me and then EO the shit out of everything to get back to a lean and mean minimalist/Constituional Republic.
The ATF interpretations are just sickening. I shall not comply with one single thing they have to say.
It would be even easier than that, just remove ATF from the DOJ and return them to the "tax status" branch they used to be concerned with regulation of alcohol, tobacco and firearms with licensed distributors, etc.
If they find somebody with an unregistered item who is not otherwise a criminal then that person should have to pay the $200 tax or surrender the item. Nobody gets their doors kicked and dogs shot for having untaxed cigarettes.
Now if it's a criminal in possession of a machine gun, then that is a criminal matter because we are talking about criminals.
That's the way the world should be working. And if it were completely up to me, there is a country in Northern Europe that issues machine gun collectors licenses where you pay ONE TIME and can then own and import any current production or collectible machine gun you can find and buy.
It would be even easier than that, just remove ATF from the DOJ and return them to the "tax status" branch they used to be concerned with regulation of alcohol, tobacco and firearms with licensed distributors, etc.
If they find somebody with an unregistered item who is not otherwise a criminal then that person should have to pay the $200 tax or surrender the item. Nobody gets their doors kicked and dogs shot for having untaxed cigarettes.
Now if it's a criminal in possession of a machine gun, then that is a criminal matter because we are talking about criminals.
That's the way the world should be working. And if it were completely up to me, there is a country in Northern Europe that issues machine gun collectors licenses where you pay ONE TIME and can then own and import any current production or collectible machine gun you can find and buy.
And not does the simple possession of machine gun a criminal make. But your points are salient.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201028/972a86137b1cebc483c6b6539e0bab47.jpg
Shrug
I like memes
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lol gun guys are the hugest cucks.
Human trafficking is illegal but right now someone is selling women.
Drugs are illegal but enough spanish snow crosses the border as to be comical
And....and....I’m supposed to lose sleep over some cubicle dweeb and a lawyer too sorry to make it in a firm’s interpretation?
And not does the simple possession of machine gun a criminal make. But your points are salient.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201028/972a86137b1cebc483c6b6539e0bab47.jpg
Shrug
I like memes
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In a perfect world it would only be an issue of failure to pay a tax which would result in demand for payment or surrender of item.
I can still remember sitting at my grandfathers table with all of his buddies who brought back duffel bag SMGs of all kinds. In the 1950s you simply pulled the bolt and technically you didn't have a functional machine gun. Sometime around the 1960s so long as you kept the bolt in the basement or attic you were good....but DON'T let them catch you shooting it or they will make you register it and it was expensive.
By about 1977-1979 I watched so many WWII vets in their late 50s and early 60s shoot machine guns behind the barn on the family farm it wasn't funny. They had a big pile of rusty paint cans that got lit up every fall. The idea that any of them could be arrested for that sort of thing was just too absurd to take seriously. Most of them didn't notice the passage of the 68 GCA, most of them didn't take the 1934 NFA seriously because it wasn't like they were robbing banks with them or anything.
I sorta wish a few of them would have registered them, they could have form 5 to a legal heir, but those kids probably would have just sold them off and used the money to buy a cool car or some stupid shit.
I saw MP-18s, MP-38s, MP-40s, MP-41s and a couple PPsh41s (which they hated cause nobody ever had ammo). They called every German SMG regardless of make and model a "burp gun" and when they all got together there was sometimes magazine confusion but afterwards we always went to KFC and I can't remember a better time.
I knew a couple guys who brought stuff back from Nam, some of it amnesty registered...most of it not. But they were usually quiet and cautious about it, it was all secret stuff along the lines of their time in Laos and Cambodia and all the secret CIA stuff they did, most of which never happened. Environment was different so they were more leery about bringing home illegal enemy small arms and again, ammo was problem. None of those guys ever wanted to have a barn party, but if you were cool they might show it to you. I don't remember any one of them ever shooting their liberated Type 3.
Early 80s I knew some SOF types who F'd around in Afghanistan and brought back some T3s that were of course unregistered. Ammo was then more readily available so they actually shot their stuff from time to time.
ChattanoogaPhil
10-28-20, 11:46
Don't comply, problem solved.
There was a lot of non-compliance reported following Connecticut and New York's so-called "assault weapon" registration schemes. But my guess is those guns don't see much daylight. I haven't seen any bump stocks the last couple years.
While hiding under the bed is certainly an option, it isn't much of a solution to the problem.
In a perfect world it would only be an issue of failure to pay a tax which would result in demand for payment or surrender of item.
I can still remember sitting at my grandfathers table with all of his buddies who brought back duffel bag SMGs of all kinds. In the 1950s you simply pulled the bolt and technically you didn't have a functional machine gun. Sometime around the 1960s so long as you kept the bolt in the basement or attic you were good....but DON'T let them catch you shooting it or they will make you register it and it was expensive.
By about 1977-1979 I watched so many WWII vets in their late 50s and early 60s shoot machine guns behind the barn on the family farm it wasn't funny. They had a big pile of rusty paint cans that got lit up every fall. The idea that any of them could be arrested for that sort of thing was just too absurd to take seriously. Most of them didn't notice the passage of the 68 GCA, most of them didn't take the 1934 NFA seriously because it wasn't like they were robbing banks with them or anything.
I sorta wish a few of them would have registered them, they could have form 5 to a legal heir, but those kids probably would have just sold them off and used the money to buy a cool car or some stupid shit.
I saw MP-18s, MP-38s, MP-40s, MP-41s and a couple PPsh41s (which they hated cause nobody ever had ammo). They called every German SMG regardless of make and model a "burp gun" and when they all got together there was sometimes magazine confusion but afterwards we always went to KFC and I can't remember a better time.
I knew a couple guys who brought stuff back from Nam, some of it amnesty registered...most of it not. But they were usually quiet and cautious about it, it was all secret stuff along the lines of their time in Laos and Cambodia and all the secret CIA stuff they did, most of which never happened. Environment was different so they were more leery about bringing home illegal enemy small arms and again, ammo was problem. None of those guys ever wanted to have a barn party, but if you were cool they might show it to you. I don't remember any one of them ever shooting their liberated Type 3.
Early 80s I knew some SOF types who F'd around in Afghanistan and brought back some T3s that were of course unregistered. Ammo was then more readily available so they actually shot their stuff from time to time.
In the summer of 2003 there were a group of folks at Saddam Hussein International Airport who had small market back room market with battlefield pickups. AKs were $100 a piece. I was very tempted to grab one of the MP5s they had for $150. I didn’t. I wasn’t much of a gun guy at the time, and had no clue on any gun regulations other than the fact that non registered machine guns were illegal. If I knew then, what I know now, I may have made the purchase.
In the summer of 2003 there were a group of folks at Saddam Hussein International Airport who had small market back room market with battlefield pickups. AKs were $100 a piece. I was very tempted to grab one of the MP5s they had for $150. I didn’t. I wasn’t much of a gun guy at the time, and had no clue on any gun regulations other than the fact that non registered machine guns were illegal. If I knew then, what I know now, I may have made the purchase.
How much were PKMs?
In the summer of 2003 there were a group of folks at Saddam Hussein International Airport who had small market back room market with battlefield pickups. AKs were $100 a piece. I was very tempted to grab one of the MP5s they had for $150. I didn’t. I wasn’t much of a gun guy at the time, and had no clue on any gun regulations other than the fact that non registered machine guns were illegal. If I knew then, what I know now, I may have made the purchase.
Dude....
That would’ve been awesome.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In the summer of 2003 there were a group of folks at Saddam Hussein International Airport who had small market back room market with battlefield pickups. AKs were $100 a piece. I was very tempted to grab one of the MP5s they had for $150. I didn’t. I wasn’t much of a gun guy at the time, and had no clue on any gun regulations other than the fact that non registered machine guns were illegal. If I knew then, what I know now, I may have made the purchase.
For $150 you could've made bank just stripping parts off them and destroying the naughty bits. :)
MountainRaven
10-28-20, 15:09
For those of us who bought AR pistols so we don’t have to, “Mother may I?” to the ATF every time we cross state lines, like with our SBRs, hiding the thing under the bed isn’t really a solution.
Diamondback
10-28-20, 15:10
For those of us who bought AR pistols so we don’t have to, “Mother may I?” to the ATF every time we cross state lines, like with our SBRs, hiding the thing under the bed isn’t really a solution.
This is why I only buy stripped lowers...
MountainRaven
10-28-20, 15:15
This is why I only buy stripped lowers...
I don’t see what problem that is supposed to solve.
I don’t see what problem that is supposed to solve.
It means you're at the bottom of the list, not the top. :)
This is trump's fault.
Trump's 2A coalition never existed.
He laid the groundwork for this with the bumpstock ban.
Chuck Canterbury (trump's interim ATF director) is staunchly anti gun.
Bill Barr is anti gun, and presided over the ruby ridge incident.
With that said, it was wreckless for the industry to invent and market bumpstocks and arm braces in the the first place. Everyone knew what they were getting away with, operating in the very gray area. Now this has come back to regulating pistol versions of rifles, which was the ATF's ultimate goal in the first place. If arm braces didn't exist; we probably wouldn't be having a discussion about this new type of AOW. The arm brace gave ATF the legal and political clout they needed make these pistols into AOWs.
In comes down to intent in court, not the technical definition of machinery. Everyone who had a bumpstock or arm brace flaunted about what they were getting away with. It was an untenable position that was on borrowed time.
The bumpstock was a set-up. ATF approved them and wanted to set up a court case where a factory M16 would be shown in video A and then a semi auto equipped AR-15 with bumpstock would be shown in video B. What do you think a jury is going to think about this? They would declare there is no difference. Then the "readily convertible" theory would be declared and all semi auto AR-15s would be declared MGs in and of themselves; because a jury or judge would rule they are too easy to convert to full auto.
The_War_Wagon
10-28-20, 16:27
Someone challenge the BATmen to show us, "sporting purposes," in the Constitution.
I'll wait.
How much were PKMs?
I don’t remember any PMKs, but I think they had RPKs in with the AKs.
Dude....
That would’ve been awesome.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right!?!
For $150 you could've made bank just stripping parts off them and destroying the naughty bits. :)
Like I said, if I would have know then what I know now, I could have cleaned up.
This is trump's fault.
Trump's 2A coalition never existed.
He laid the groundwork for this with the bumpstock ban.
Chuck Canterbury (trump's interim ATF director) is staunchly anti gun.
Bill Barr is anti gun, and presided over the ruby ridge incident.
With that said, it was wreckless for the industry to invent and market bumpstocks and arm braces in the the first place. Everyone knew what they were getting away with, operating in the very gray area. Now this has come back to regulating pistol versions of rifles, which was the ATF's ultimate goal in the first place. If arm braces didn't exist; we probably wouldn't be having a discussion about this new type of AOW. The arm brace gave ATF the legal and political clout they needed make these pistols into AOWs.
In comes down to intent in court, not the technical definition of machinery. Everyone who had a bumpstock or arm brace flaunted about what they were getting away with. It was an untenable position that was on borrowed time.
The bumpstock was a set-up. ATF approved them and wanted to set up a court case where a factory M16 would be shown in video A and then a semi auto equipped AR-15 with bumpstock would be shown in video B. What do you think a jury is going to think about this? They would declare there is no difference. Then the "readily convertible" theory would be declared and all semi auto AR-15s would be declared MGs in and of themselves; because a jury or judge would rule they are too easy to convert to full auto.
Just pay for your tax stamp like a good little sheep.
After all if you just comply you have nothing to worry about.
Ok dude [emoji849]
If anyone has been paying attention they want all firearms subject to stricter regulation and registration. Bump stocks braces etc never mattered and they sure as fuvk weren’t going to do anything to change the end goal but you keep selling yourself the fantasy of compliance equals safety.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In the summer of 2003 there were a group of folks at Saddam Hussein International Airport who had small market back room market with battlefield pickups. AKs were $100 a piece. I was very tempted to grab one of the MP5s they had for $150. I didn’t. I wasn’t much of a gun guy at the time, and had no clue on any gun regulations other than the fact that non registered machine guns were illegal. If I knew then, what I know now, I may have made the purchase.
Yeah, but the military was coming down hard on that stuff. I seem to recall some guys who got pee pee smacked hard for just bringing in AK mags.
Someone challenge the BATmen to show us, "sporting purposes," in the Constitution.
I'll wait.
Nothing in the 1968 GCA is supported by the constitution. But here we are.
Think of your social credit score
arbninftry
10-28-20, 18:19
This is why I only buy stripped lowers...
If I remember correctly, SteyrAUG can correct me, but at one time all receivers on a 4473 were checked as a pistol. It took a couple years to update the form to add receiver as it’s own box for the dealer to check off on.
Also, here is a question, if does come down to register it or whatever, making it a rifle is an option? Right, you can make a pistol or receiver a rifle, just not make a rifle into a pistol. Is that still the case?
Just pay for your tax stamp like a good little sheep.
After all if you just comply you have nothing to worry about.
Ok dude [emoji849]
If anyone has been paying attention they want all firearms subject to stricter regulation and registration. Bump stocks braces etc never mattered and they sure as fuvk weren’t going to do anything to change the end goal but you keep selling yourself the fantasy of compliance equals safety.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You don't get it.
Its about winning in court. Things like arm braces and bumpstocks blur the line between regular rifle vs. SBR or semi vs. machinegun.
Its about having a case to sue the government over and hopefully get a 2A friendly federal judge.
Trump and the NRA had different reasons for regulation bumpstocks.
Trump wanted them gone because he doesn't like guns.
The NRA wanted them regulated because the NRA has spend the past 35 years correctly telling the public that an AR-15 is not a machinegun.
Now you have a bumpstock that creates near MG level fire for a semi auto AR-15; that can set up a court case that doesn't work in our favor.
You don't get it.
Its about winning in court. Things like arm braces and bumpstocks blur the line between regular rifle vs. SBR or semi vs. machinegun.
Its about having a case to sue the government over and hopefully get a 2A friendly federal judge.
Trump and the NRA had different reasons for regulation bumpstocks.
Trump wanted them gone because he doesn't like guns.
The NRA wanted them regulated because the NRA has spend the past 35 years correctly telling the public that an AR-15 is not a machinegun.
Now you have a bumpstock that creates near MG level fire for a semi auto AR-15; that can set up a court case that doesn't work in our favor.
Just keep paying your taxes and everything will work out amirite?
Just keep paying your taxes and everything will work out amirite?
I'm waiting for your detailed legal strategy.
Don't comply, problem solved.
Any 08 importer that does not comply will lose lose their FFL and may even go to jail.
The elite support for gun bans was a thing long before bump stocks or arm braces. It is the rare judge that will fully rule against gun bans or any other infringement on liberties because a peon having a taste of freedom devalues the near limitless privileges the judge(& other special people) have been anointed with.
It is also important to remember the NRA stumped for NFA 34 and GCA 68 which are very much at the center of all of this.
I'm waiting for your detailed legal strategy.
Who said it was legal?
You don't get it.
Its about winning in court. Things like arm braces and bumpstocks blur the line between regular rifle vs. SBR or semi vs. machinegun.
Its about having a case to sue the government over and hopefully get a 2A friendly federal judge.
Trump and the NRA had different reasons for regulation bumpstocks.
Trump wanted them gone because he doesn't like guns.
The NRA wanted them regulated because the NRA has spend the past 35 years correctly telling the public that an AR-15 is not a machinegun.
Now you have a bumpstock that creates near MG level fire for a semi auto AR-15; that can set up a court case that doesn't work in our favor.
Good luck with that. The cards are already on the table face up. Let us know when you come back to reality.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It is also important to remember the NRA stumped for NFA 34 and GCA 68 which are very much at the center of all of this.
So two things.
In 1934 the NRA wasn't really a political activist organization so much as they were dedicated to promoting gun safety and shooting events. That they would have a conventional view of the firearms used by Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, etc. isn't very remarkable.
And not to give them a pass on 1968 but they did very much support the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act which was much better than the version Hughes / Rodino wanted to pass which was basically a closed registry where no further transfers are possible and it included ALL NFA weapons (SBRs, SBSs, Suppressors, MGs and AOWs). So if you owned it in 1986 you were the final owner, no Form 5s or transfers of any kind.
You don't get it.
Its about winning in court. Things like arm braces and bumpstocks blur the line between regular rifle vs. SBR or semi vs. machinegun.
Its about having a case to sue the government over and hopefully get a 2A friendly federal judge.
Trump and the NRA had different reasons for regulation bumpstocks.
Trump wanted them gone because he doesn't like guns.
The NRA wanted them regulated because the NRA has spend the past 35 years correctly telling the public that an AR-15 is not a machinegun.
Now you have a bumpstock that creates near MG level fire for a semi auto AR-15; that can set up a court case that doesn't work in our favor.
While much of this is true, guy on TOS used to be famous for bump firing a garand off his belt loop. Are we gonna eventually add belt loops to shoe strings and every other goddamn ridiculous ATF ruling including the famous "empty volume of air constitutes a new machine gun" determination?
I get it, bump stocks are stupid and resulted in a new ATF definition they can then use to screw us harder.
I get it, arm braces are stupid and may result in a new ATF definition they can then use to screw us harder.
But we have to stop throwing everyone under the bus. If ATF approves it in the first place, then they have to just shut the F up and sit there when we creatively exploit their stupid definitions.
And more importantly, can we just find somebody with some balls and go on the offensive already? I swear I will become a lifetime member of the Pink Pistol if those homos sack up and go after the "sporter clause."
So two things.
In 1934 the NRA wasn't really a political activist organization so much as they were dedicated to promoting gun safety and shooting events. That they would have a conventional view of the firearms used by Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, etc. isn't very remarkable.
And not to give them a pass on 1968 but they did very much support the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act which was much better than the version Hughes / Rodino wanted to pass which was basically a closed registry where no further transfers are possible and it included ALL NFA weapons (SBRs, SBSs, Suppressors, MGs and AOWs). So if you owned it in 1986 you were the final owner, no Form 5s or transfers of any kind.
It may surprise you, but I would love to be able to point to the date when NRA got either of those repealed. I would even be happy with an honest attempt at growing them.
Milking the fall out from both for all it is worth is a whole different story.
It may surprise you, but I would love to be able to point to the date when NRA got either of those repealed. I would even be happy with an honest attempt at growing them.
Milking the fall out from both for all it is worth is a whole different story.
I'm just doing the entire picture thing. You and I are both very aware of their failings and efforts, we also both find them very wanting.
Once Reagan was in power the NRA should have gone full tilt after the sporter clause, I don't think there was ever a better opportunity. It wasn't gonna happen in the late 60s or early 70s and it sure wasn't going to happen during the Clinton years or during the Bush 41 administration.
Could have possibly attempted it in early 2008 when Obama swelled the ranks of life members to previously unknown numbers, but there would have been a lot of push back. And even though Trump isn't the second amendment crusader he promised to be, RIGHT NOW would actually be a pretty good time to try it...IF the NRA actually had any balls. But everyone is too busy trying to help crucify LePierre to spend time doing anything really meaningful.
But shouldn't surprise me, last time anyone really stepped up and executed a "**** NO" moment was in September 2004 when Sen Larry Craig refused to allow the renewal of the Clinton Ban be amended to his industry protection bill, but because he was a homo who cruised airport bathrooms for hookups and got caught, he was rewarded by being voted OFF the NRA board of directors because you can't defend gun owners and blow random dudes in the airport bathroom.
Sadly at the end of the day the NRA values are a collection of how the overall membership feels and those guys can be damn disappointing at times.
Oh and btw, 1986 was a date when the NRA managed to get much of the 1968 Gun Control Act repealed. So there is that.
I'm just doing the entire picture thing. You and I are both very aware of their failings and efforts, we also both find them very wanting.
Once Reagan was in power the NRA should have gone full tilt after the sporter clause, I don't think there was ever a better opportunity. It wasn't gonna happen in the late 60s or early 70s and it sure wasn't going to happen during the Clinton years or during the Bush 41 administration.
Could have possibly attempted it in early 2008 when Obama swelled the ranks of life members to previously unknown numbers, but there would have been a lot of push back. And even though Trump isn't the second amendment crusader he promised to be, RIGHT NOW would actually be a pretty good time to try it...IF the NRA actually had any balls. But everyone is too busy trying to help crucify LePierre to spend time doing anything really meaningful.
But shouldn't surprise me, last time anyone really stepped up and executed a "**** NO" moment was in September 2004 when Sen Larry Craig refused to allow the renewal of the Clinton Ban be amended to his industry protection bill, but because he was a homo who cruised airport bathrooms for hookups and got caught, he was rewarded by being voted OFF the NRA board of directors because you can't defend gun owners and blow random dudes in the airport bathroom.
Sadly at the end of the day the NRA values are a collection of how the overall membership feels and those guys can be damn disappointing at times.
Oh and btw, 1986 was a date when the NRA managed to get much of the 1968 Gun Control Act repealed. So there is that.
Did Craig get voted off over gay restroom sex or for staunchly defending the 2nd Amendment? I don't recall Neal Knox ever trying for a men's room hook up, but he seems to have received similar treatment and his very existence, ever, still pisses off the cat lady.
Good on the 86 fopa, but unfortunately the only part zealously enforced is the mg ban.
ChattanoogaPhil
10-29-20, 09:02
There was a time when the NRA was the so-called 800lb gorilla in Washington. There were many A-rated democrats, and the NRA had a significant amount of influence in Washington. Those days are over. Trump recently suggested that the NRA relocate to Texas. Other than that, I haven't heard Trump even whisper the letters NRA while campaigning. He'll talk about protecting the 2A but the mention of NRA is noticeably absent from his rally speeches. Much different than 2016 when Trump was regularly bragging on the NRA. I think it's fair to say the NRA has become a pariah.
MountainRaven
10-29-20, 09:16
It means you're at the bottom of the list, not the top. :)
And that helps with legally traveling with a 11.5-12.5" barrel AR without asking the ATF for permission... how?
Did Craig get voted off over gay restroom sex or for staunchly defending the 2nd Amendment? I don't recall Neal Knox ever trying for a men's room hook up, but he seems to have received similar treatment and his very existence, ever, still pisses off the cat lady.
Good on the 86 fopa, but unfortunately the only part zealously enforced is the mg ban.
Neal Knox threatened the power base. But yeah, sadly most Life Members voted Craig off the island because he was a homo.
But if not for FOPA, the entire EE on every forum would be illegal.
If you mail order ammo to your home, thank FOPA. The GCA didn't allow it, dealers used to keep log books for ammo sales just like guns.
If you can make a favorable sale or trade without being arrested as an unlicensed dealer, thank FOPA. This was a big one and why every serious collector prior to FOPA held a kitchen table FFL just for CYA. Common sting was for ATF to set up a table and sell guns for X price, then UC would solicit the buyer to sell the same gun for X plus $50-75 and if you did, you just got arrested for selling guns for profit without being a FFL.
That was probably the BIGGEST thing FOPA did for anyone. Of course that is being slowly stripped away little by little and we have seen guys get arrested for unlicensed dealer stuff even when it all went through a FFL.
And of course the other biggest one was imports of military surplus. Did you guys enjoy those $150 K-98s and $65 Moisin Nagants? Because prior to FOPA those were very, very rare and very, very expensive. To this day pre 68 imports can command 5 to 10 times the value of a recent import so pre 68 K-98s can easily go into the $1,000 range when import marked ones are selling for $250.
And lets not forget that the 1968 Gun Control Act also had a machine gun ban but regulating imported machine guns. This is why there is no such thing as a true transferable MP5 because they all began life as HK94s.
F**k the ATF. Seriously. They're also racist. Like actual racist. At my old store, we had an ATF agent (not inspector; actual criminal investigator) stop in once to "say hi". He told us flat out that the ATF does NOT trust black gun owners, and keeps a close eye on them. He told us not be afraid to report any black customers to them, as "they're usually up to no good." I'm not making that story up.At my uncles store where he was also an SOT, we had a female black ATF doing a compliance inspection and she bluntly stated .
" all gunowners are criminals, we just haven't gotten to you yet.."
True story....at a gun shop in cottage grove Oregon.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
BoringGuy45
10-30-20, 07:46
At my uncles store where he was also an SOT, we had a female black ATF doing a compliance inspection and she bluntly stated .
" all gunowners are criminals, we just haven't gotten to you yet.."
True story....at a gun shop in cottage grove Oregon.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
At least she was inclusive and non-racist :D:
My ATF visitor: "Black gun owners are criminals!"
Your ATF visitor: "ALL gun owners are criminals!"
:sarcastic:
At least she was inclusive and non-racist :D:
My ATF visitor: "Black gun owners are criminals!"
Your ATF visitor: "ALL gun owners are criminals!"
:sarcastic:
I mostly did ok with compliance officers.
The most fun was the guy who held an Uzi for the first time and went "Man...I had no idea they were so heavy."
And while Atlanta might be the biggest employer of the mentally handicapped, I have found NFA branch to be knowledgeable, professional and even helpful on many occasions. Doesn't mean I support the NFA legislation itself, but at least they seem to have the right people running that department.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.