AR 10 ?'s

[Cagemonkey]

Just purchased an AR10A4 rifle. Purchased carrying handle and front sight assy. Took forever to adjust front sight block for windage zero. Removed handguards to fully seat gas block assy. to rear for gas port alignment. Have short stroking problems. Rifle cycles, but not enough to engage bolt catch. Shot numerous loads. S. African, Federal LC XM80762 and Privi Partisan FMJ. So far the Privi Partisan works the best. I cleaned and lubed the rifle with Slip 2000. The carrier key is tight and the bolt ring(McFarland type) is new/serviceable. I chose to use the iron sights because it will be some time before I can afford the right optics. Should I continue to break the rife in and try more ammo loads/brands or is there a larger problem at hand? I had a similar problem in the past with their carbine 5.56 upper that they failed to resolve. Upper would only function right with LC M193. I hope this doesn't turn into another mess. Any advice would be welcome.

[SHIVAN]

Removed handguards to fully seat gas block assy. to rear for gas port alignment. Have short stroking problems.

There should be a small space between the shoulder and the gas block. Is there a shim there holding the handguards in?

[sinister]

Did you call their technical service rep?

[Cagemonkey]

There should be a small space between the shoulder and the gas block. Is there a shim there holding the handguards in? The only thing between the shoulder and gas block is the handguard retaining cup. Should I move the gas block towards the muzzle a little?

[SHIVAN]

Was it shortstroking before you moved the gas block? You didn't mention it.

I would also suggest calling their tech help to diagnose this issue. They will have the best answers.

[sjc3081]

My AR 10 was a total POS. It suffered constant failures to extract. I dumped that whore. My SAI M1A always goes bang.

[SHIVAN]

My AR 10 was a total POS. It suffered constant failures to extract. I dumped that whore. My SAI M1A always goes bang.

Thank you for adding "valuable" assistance to this poster's thread. Please post other "helpful" information like this somewhere else, thanks.

[Iraqgunz]

We have about 23 AR-10 rifles here that were purchased sometime in 2004 or early 2005. According to Armalite they are considered Gen 2 rifles. We have had issues with our rifles as well. Some of them function w/o problems others short stroke and have issues fully eject and reloading.

They advised us that some of the gas ports could have been out of spec and in fact when some were measured they were found not to be what they stated they should be. As a matter of fact we had (2) rifles that had identical gas port holes, and yet would not fire the same ammo. We were using Federal GM 168 match ammo as well as Milspec M118. Also, I have noticed that the magazines are also picky as well. Hope this may help.

[sjc3081]

Thank you for adding "valuable" assistance to this poster's thread. Please post other "helpful" information like this somewhere else, thanks.

I'm sorry, but I was being short and to the point. My Ar 10 was acting the same ,when I called Armalite and explained my issues they stated they "may be able to fix the rifle". So CageMonkey I suspect that the AR 10 is a flawed product.


Industry Professional

The AR10's can be made very accurate and are fine for range or bench shooting, if that is what you want. If you want something "Tactical" beyond a MK12 or clone in 5.56 then the best alternative is still a quality bolt action rifle with good glass in 7.62NATO/.300WM/.338Lapua/.338Norma etc.


Industry Professional

Unfortunately none of the current 7.62 mm AR's run reliably, including the AR10 and SR25/Mk11/M110.

It was reported that the very expensive, highly touted SR25K "Battle Rifles" purchased for SOF use did not prove particularly durable or reliable in combat conditions and were withdrawn for service rather quickly. Many folks who have deployed with SR25/Mk11/M110 have not had kind things to say about their durability. One well known SOTIC instructor has written the following:



"The first SRs had serious function problems and mag problems. They broke at the worse possible times and were not user friendly to fix once broken. The newer Mk11s are almost as bad but have a better rep function wise and the mag problem seems to have been fixed. The guys are shooting the crap out of the weapons and using it more as a battel rifle than a sniper rifle. The manual states that only 25 to 50 rounds should be fired form teh weapon per day. That is being violated badly and the weapons are paying for it. The SR was never designed to be a super precision sniper rifle and it is not. Even if Knight is now claiming the same in his SASS BS. I have seen too many not make it through our course and the ones that do require almost daily maintenance to continue. I have seen the SASS and I predict that they will start having trouble wiht the weapon as a sniper rifle within the year that it is first issued in mass. Say this time next year. The first to go will be the stock extension mechanism which is as flimsy a pice of crap that I have ever seen. As far as lost accuracy and range on the old versus new, none that I know of as the old had crappy range and accuracy and the longer barrel did not enhance already lousy. Sniper versus DM, one shots a priority target and the other bangs away at everyone, oh like a rifleman."

[SHIVAN]

Ok, sjc3081 take the agenda somewhere else. I'm not sure I can be more clear. Maybe the product is flawed, or maybe it's a simple fix of his changes to the rifle. Either way, quoting DocGKR and Rana, poorly I might add, and making blanket over-generalizations is not helping Cagemonkey at all.

I've let this topic run, contrary to our rules, so that maybe people might offer him simple solutions that he might try. Due to your posts I will no longer be lenient on our "call the manufacturer rule" in the future. Thanks.

[sjc3081]

I have no agenda. I value my membership at this forum so I get the point.

[Littlelebowski]

sjc, my brother used the SR-25 to great effect in Iraq in real word urban combat. His SR25 was definitely not a benchrest gun. I can provide a link to his review from combat if you like.

[sjc3081]

LL I got it a few years back at Warrior Talk very impressive. I even watched your brothers video a dozen times. But scanning this site and and WT those who are in the know seem to frown on the AR10 platform. And I mean industry insiders on this site. I trust their opinions that's why I'm here. Also my personal debacle with the Armalite AR 10 confirms what the industry insiders are saying.

[Littlelebowski]

I was referring to your comments on the SR25 platform. There's other .308 ARs that run well. I have been very personally impressed by the .308 DPMS rifles.

[SHIVAN]

The industry professionals from this site, have seen all the .308 AR's perform poorly in comparison to the 5.56 counterparts. Remember, the SR derivatives won the SASS trials, and they are not performing as well as people had hoped. If the winner is not doing well, I suspect the losers would not have done better. That includes Remington (DPMS) and ArmaLite.

I am perfectly fine with this convo, but please make a new thread.

[sjc3081]

LL those aren't my words on the SR 25 I also heard that the DMPS seems to run well from you and others and i think the DMPS mags are a better design. Can you give us a update and a round count as in pertains to you rifle in a separate post so we don't hijack this tread.

[G27gear]

The handguard cup is the "spacer". If you were to put on a free float handguard, then you would need some form of spacer. What you have now should be working.
As long as you haven't moved the gasblock to far to the left or right, the holes should be matching up well enough. If I remember correctly, the hole on my gas block was a 2 times as big as the port on the barrel, giving a good amount of wiggle room to get your front sight adjusted for windage so your rear sight would be centered well enough without major adjustments ( I believe that's what you were trying to do)
It sucks to get a new rifle and have to send it to the factory for an inspection to see what the problem is. But, I've heard that one of the biggest reasons people liked the armalite, was the customer service. So, if you can't diagnose the problem over the phone, or with some help from the forum; the company should be more than willing to take a look at it for you and pay the shipping fees as well. Give them a call and see what they can do.
You may just have an extended break-in time required on your rifle.
I was disappointed in mine at first. Some rough spots in the magazines got burnished out and a few dozen rounds down range and everything is running like clockwork now.
Good luck

[Cagemonkey]

The handguard cup is the "spacer". If you were to put on a free float handguard, then you would need some form of spacer. What you have now should be working.
As long as you haven't moved the gasblock to far to the left or right, the holes should be matching up well enough. If I remember correctly, the hole on my gas block was a 2 times as big as the port on the barrel, giving a good amount of wiggle room to get your front sight adjusted for windage so your rear sight would be centered well enough without major adjustments ( I believe that's what you were trying to do)
It sucks to get a new rifle and have to send it to the factory for an inspection to see what the problem is. But, I've heard that one of the biggest reasons people liked the armalite, was the customer service. So, if you can't diagnose the problem over the phone, or with some help from the forum; the company should be more than willing to take a look at it for you and pay the shipping fees as well. Give them a call and see what they can do.
You may just have an extended break-in time required on your rifle.
I was disappointed in mine at first. Some rough spots in the magazines got burnished out and a few dozen rounds down range and everything is running like clockwork now.
Good luck
Thanx for the good info. You hit the nail on the head as far as what I was doing in zeroing out the front sight. At 25 yds the rifle was shooting 8"s to the right. I got the front sight zeroed, but there is a slight cant to the right. This is probably excessive and is interfering with gas port/block alignment. This now leads to the next question. Why do I have to use excessive windage to zero my rifle. I might have to call Armalite.

[KevinB]

. Why do I have to use excessive windage to zero my rifle. I might have to call Armalite.

You answered your own question.

If your front sight is canted - you will need to move the rear.

I am guessing you have a set screw gas block - all you need to to is back the set scrwws off - align it so there is no can - and re tighten the set screws to remove the cant.

You will then need to re-zero, but suck is life.


I dont like non-pinned gas blocks for the very reason they can shift, and leave you with a straight pull bolt gun...

[constructor]

Just purchased an AR10A4 rifle. Purchased carrying handle and front sight assy. Took forever to adjust front sight block for windage zero. Removed handguards to fully seat gas block assy. to rear for gas port alignment. Have short stroking problems. Rifle cycles, but not enough to engage bolt catch. Shot numerous loads. S. African, Federal LC XM80762 and Privi Partisan FMJ. So far the Privi Partisan works the best. I cleaned and lubed the rifle with Slip 2000. The carrier key is tight and the bolt ring(McFarland type) is new/serviceable. I chose to use the iron sights because it will be some time before I can afford the right optics. Should I continue to break the rife in and try more ammo loads/brands or is there a larger problem at hand? I had a similar problem in the past with their carbine 5.56 upper that they failed to resolve. Upper would only function right with LC M193. I hope this doesn't turn into another mess. Any advice would be welcome.


Take off that Mcfarland first and try it with regular rings, if that doesn't work Take your gas block off and look for the soot ring, it should be over the gas port, if not then move the gas block where it is. If it is over the port check the diameter of the gas port with a drill bit. if a carbine gas system it should be 5/64 if mid length it should be 3/32.

[G27gear]

8" off does seem extream.
If I was short on time and just needed to make it happen; I would split the difference. Keep your front sight canted to get you within 4 inches, and use the rear to bring in the last 4 inches. That's not the perfect answer, but it might get your further than you are now.
Calling Armalite should net you some pretty good results though.

[Cagemonkey]

Thanx for all the info and suggestions I've received from this thread. I took a small level and leveled my gas block even with the receiver rail. Re-installed my iron sights and went to the range today. The rear sight needed 34 clicks left to zero the windage. The rifle performed flawlessly with 20 rds of S. African ball and 40 rds of Privi Partisan 145 FMJ. The federal XM80762 7.62 FMJ had 6 stoppages out of 20 rds fired. One wonder the Military didn't accept this particular lot. I don't recommend this ammo. The 34 clicks left windage is quite allot, but except for match shooting, adjusting windage after getting ones zero is rare. Sometime later I would like to purchase optics when I have the money.

[G27gear]

At lease you've got it running. That windage adjustment is pretty big. If you've got time to try making adjustments at the range, you might be able to move that front sight base over a little and still have the holes line up. You'll have to trial and error by moving it and firing off a few rounds to find the sweet spot between lining it up and getting your windage where you need it. But, if you're going for optics and the iron sights will just be back up in the future, it's not too big a deal.
Hope it all works out for you.

[woofe]

We have about 23 AR-10 rifles here that were purchased sometime in 2004 or early 2005. According to Armalite they are considered Gen 2 rifles. We have had issues with our rifles as well. Some of them function w/o problems others short stroke and have issues fully eject and reloading.

They advised us that some of the gas ports could have been out of spec and in fact when some were measured they were found not to be what they stated they should be. As a matter of fact we had (2) rifles that had identical gas port holes, and yet would not fire the same ammo. We were using Federal GM 168 match ammo as well as Milspec M118. Also, I have noticed that the magazines are also picky as well. Hope this may help.

Iraqgunz:

I have an AR-10 (with 20 inch midwt barrel, .750 at the block I think) that has similar problems. It is about 8 month old and has about 1k rnds through it now.

I've checked the gas system to insure that all is well, ie gas port lines up with hole in gasblock(via carbon print), with hole in gas tube(visual), gas tube is clear and unkinked(pipe cleaner goes thru easily), gas key tight (and staked) on the carrier, and good gas ring........

As far as I can tell, there is no obvious binding during hand cycling. I've used a variety of oils and greases to lube it (sloppy lube).

It still has a tendency to shortstroke with some "mil spec" ammo. It seems to be reliable with commercial (higher pressure) ammo.

I've measured the gas port with pin gauges and determined the port to be about .084 inches. Armalite won't give a spec, but says that my gas port is ok.

Armalite has offered to have a look at the gun, but I'm hardheaded enough that I want to understand the issue and correct it myself.

If you know (and can tell) what is the spec range for gas port size?? I'm giving thought to opening the gas port to about .090 (tapered) via carbide reamer. Any other items I should check??

Thanx for you thoughts

woofe

[constructor]

.084-90 a 3/32" bit should be good with a rifle length system.
1- do you have Mcfarland rings on your bolt? if so try regular rings.
2- remove a weight or 2 from the buffer and try it, fill the void with a rubber stopper, do not try a cork it will turn to dust.
As the rifle breaks in further it may start throwing brass to 2 or 1 oclock, if it does just add the weights back.

[woofe]

.084-90 a 3/32" bit should be good with a rifle length system.
1- do you have Mcfarland rings on your bolt? if so try regular rings.
2- remove a weight or 2 from the buffer and try it, fill the void with a rubber stopper, do not try a cork it will turn to dust.
As the rifle breaks in further it may start throwing brass to 2 or 1 oclock, if it does just add the weights back.

Hate to ask a really dumb question, but where am I going to get conventional gas rings the correct size for the AR-10 bolt??

woofe

[constructor]

DPMS or Armalite has regular rings listed as replacement parts.

[deltaARman]

Go with the armalite gas rings.

[G27gear]

I've never had a problem with gas rings. What's suppose to be so great about the Mcfarland rings (that, from reading here, isn't so great)?
Of course, I've never had a problem with a direct gas system of the m16 family, but the gun world is making a huge deal about new systems, and talking about how aweful the gas system is...

[constructor]

The claim is that Mcfarland rings will never wear out, IMO they are too tight and should be left to use on worn carriers where they need to take up the extra space.

[G27gear]

That's good to know. I can keep in mind if things ever start to wear out.
Thanks