View Full Version : The ATF Improvement and Modernization Act of 2020
Page that's trying to alert and block this "improvement" bill:
Bill/Issue: S 4841The ATF Improvement and Modernization Act of 2020
Sponsor: Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD)
Position: Opposed
Summary: Gives the ATF more power/money, removes limits on the sharing of firearms trace data
Sen. Van Hollen has just introduced a Senate bill that would dramatically beef up the ATF's power. But that's not all because this draconian legislation would also allow for the indefinite retention of NICS data. Check out our analysis below for the disturbing impacts of this bill.
Main Impacts
Eliminates the Tiahrt Amendment, i.e. limits on the sharing of firearms trace data, and permits FOIA requests for this data and information on arson and explosives incidents.
If repealed, anti-gun rights “researchers” and political organizations will contort this data in an attempt to demonize gun owners. Firearms trace data will also be sought to bring lawsuits against manufacturers and dealers for the criminal acts of third parties.
Eliminates salary and expense caps for most ATF functions, missions, and activities, while also permitting the ATF to farm out its workload to other government agencies.
Permitting funding increases and fungibility of assignment would mean granting the federal government the power to massively expand its abuse of firearms dealers and to scour indefinitely retained NICS data (see below).
Allows for the indefinite retention of NICS check data
Cont:
https://www.firearmspolicy.org/atf_senate_bill
I’m sure they won’t abuse any of that power. I mean after all it’s the atf , They’re a good group of people.
The trend continues: give more power to unelected unaccountable bureaucrats to strip us of our freedom.
The next administration is also funding the new Ministry of Truth and Ministry of Love.
The next administration is also funding the new Ministry of Truth.
That already exists. There is no widespread election fraud. Repeat after me....There is no widespread election fraud
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But gun owners can't even be civil to each other on a forum.
So how are we going to unite to fight for our rights?
Does anyone really believe that NICS data has been being destroyed/not logged (as per the friggin' LAW that created it) for the last 25+ years?
Riiiiight......
Not a chance
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titsonritz
11-13-20, 15:19
"President-Elect" Sleepy, Creepy Joe Biden has a few suggestions...
The elections are far from over and Biden’s victory is nothing more than a unilateral declaration. This is true except for the ATF which is secretly transitioning itself to be in a position to restrict gun ownership under the Biden administration.
ATF’s Acting Director Regina Lombardo disclosed during a conference call on November 10, 2020, that Biden’s transition team reached out to discuss ATF’s top priorities. An insider disclosed that 80% lower receivers and pistol braces would be her priority.
Cont...
Biden's Transition Team contacted the ATF to discuss Gun Control (https://www.lsgr.live/post/biden-s-transition-team-contacted-the-atf-to-discuss-gun-control?postId=5fac028f3d783d0017b3d821&fbclid=IwAR2IRT66cSBp9eIumbki8BAJ1bu800EEqbZzSbJXcyKyksn8PbUBHsqf4eI)
^None of which would be surprising. Interesting, I was looking for a more official source about the information in that blog post, in other words who originally published the bit about the ATF interim director and what was said in a phone call. I see even large gun sites all over, like this one (https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/atf-working-biden-transition-team-ban-pistol-braces/), publishing the same story, but haven't been able to find a more official source.
All the stories saying an "anonymous source" inside the ATF itself leaked this information to the gun community. Which is interesting if true, we have pro-2A folks even inside ATF. Must be a miserable frustrating place to work....
ETA: This report should be verified by some of the Congressman, and then used as a campaign issue in the George Senate run-off. It's actually helping us that they're telegraphing their moves early.
But gun owners can't even be civil to each other on a forum.
So how are we going to unite to fight for our rights?
Eventually...you from your hide and me from mine.
Does anyone really believe that NICS data has been being destroyed/not logged (as per the friggin' LAW that created it) for the last 25+ years?
Riiiiight......
Just a problem, NICS lacks critical info like make, model and serial number. They know the name of the individual which is already in their searchable database but beyond that only know handgun or long gun.
Diamondback
11-13-20, 17:29
All the stories saying an "anonymous source" inside the ATF itself leaked this information to the gun community. Which is interesting if true, we have pro-2A folks even inside ATF. Must be a miserable frustrating place to work....
If such long-suffering patriots exist, God bless them. More likely the leak is somebody who was jockeying for empire-building position and got knocked aside looking for a little payback, but hope springs eternal.
Just a problem, NICS lacks critical info like make, model and serial number. They know the name of the individual which is already in their searchable database but beyond that only know handgun or long gun.
Point being that per the law itself no record of the purchase was to be made.
Wasn't too awfully long after that the ATF facility in Martinsburg, WV was opened. HUGE data storage capabilities from what I've read.
Edit: not sure about anywhere else but in TN they use TBI (TN Bureau of Investigation) instead of Federal checks. That lists the make, model, and caliber.
Coal Dragger
11-13-20, 20:43
But gun owners can't even be civil to each other on a forum.
So how are we going to unite to fight for our rights?
The answer is we’re not going to unite.
Gun owners being conservative by nature are cantankerous and prone to individualistic habits, and proclivities. We’ll argue about the virtues of a few .001”s of bullet diameter bitterly for crying out loud. We also will not agree to disagree on even the smallest stupidest shit. Not exactly a group of people who are going to unite in any effective fashion for anything any time soon.
Leftists of course love group think and conformity, or seem to and will be united more often than not.
Which is one reason why we keep losing.
"President-Elect" Sleepy, Creepy Joe Biden has a few suggestions...
The elections are far from over and Biden’s victory is nothing more than a unilateral declaration. This is true except for the ATF which is secretly transitioning itself to be in a position to restrict gun ownership under the Biden administration.
ATF’s Acting Director Regina Lombardo disclosed during a conference call on November 10, 2020, that Biden’s transition team reached out to discuss ATF’s top priorities. An insider disclosed that 80% lower receivers and pistol braces would be her priority.
Cont...
Biden's Transition Team contacted the ATF to discuss Gun Control (https://www.lsgr.live/post/biden-s-transition-team-contacted-the-atf-to-discuss-gun-control?postId=5fac028f3d783d0017b3d821&fbclid=IwAR2IRT66cSBp9eIumbki8BAJ1bu800EEqbZzSbJXcyKyksn8PbUBHsqf4eI)
this is absolute bs! I'm telling you, the only we stop this is literally to have a VA style gathering at the capital with guns and mass civil disobedience.
ATF needs to be defunded and abolished. It's amazing how people just think rights are not rights!
vicious_cb
11-13-20, 23:49
ATF needs to be defunded and abolished. It's amazing how people just think rights are not rights!
Or just turn it into a retail chain. All your freedom related needs in one place.
Point being that per the law itself no record of the purchase was to be made.
Wasn't too awfully long after that the ATF facility in Martinsburg, WV was opened. HUGE data storage capabilities from what I've read.
Edit: not sure about anywhere else but in TN they use TBI (TN Bureau of Investigation) instead of Federal checks. That lists the make, model, and caliber.
That is at a state level and places like CA, NY, etc absolutely do. Another example is multiple handgun purchase reports. But the master database most envision cannot exist...yet. That is because NICS in most places only does a background check on a prospective firearm purchaser to make sure they aren't a "prohibited person" and no additional information is provided. They are only referencing the information that already exists within the NICS system, if you aren't in there...you aren't in there beyond they know your drivers license info, etc. And if we take them at their word, the record of that background check only remains in the system for so many weeks.
Quite honestly the closest thing to a national firearms registration database that currently exists are people with conceal carry permits, they know those people are probably armed although no information about what weapons they own exactly is known.
This is why when ATF does a firearm trace, they still have to begin at the manufacturer, go through distributors and dealers until they finally arrive at the end user. There is no magic database where they enter a serial number and it gives them a name and address of the current owner.
Now I'm no giant fan of ATF but if we direct our efforts on mythical databases rather than doing something useful like getting the "sporter clause" removed from the 1968 GCA we are wasting our time on a non issue rather than doing something productive. Now certainly the warning of pending legislation that increases the discretionary authority of ATF merits watching, especially if it's proven to be true and the legislation is introduced to congress...we need to be ready to make phone calls and raise a giant bitchfest...but we also have to be factually accurate.
Now it is no secret that ATF is famous for selected photocopying of 4473s during compliance inspections under the guise that they are making sure FFLs are filling them out correctly and completely, and in the example of large store chains where digital copies exist inspectors have been caught downloading complete 4473 records, but even with those examples they still have a very incomplete database and don't have anything like a searchable "by name" master list that brings up every firearm you ever bought since high school.
Most of that information is retained by the FFL for so long as they are in business and even when FFLs retire and provide 4473s and bound books to ATF, it is a monster project to scan all that in or worse somehow create a searchable database. It would take hundreds of entry level "data entry" employees decades to make it happen and some time within the first year of the effort somebody would blow the whistle really hard that "Hey....they are DOING IT...they are DOING EXACTLY what people have been saying they were gonna do" since the late 1960s.
I don't believe they have actually done it, otherwise no FFL would have to participate in a firearm track / records search because ATF would already have all of the information they needed. I also think all of those MILLIONS of 4473s in ATFs possession are housed hard copies that probably aren't even organized in any kind of master catalog beyond all of these belonged to this FFL number and those belonged to that FFL number, with of course the sole exception being declined transfers and I can reasonably understand why they might keep copies of those and the related info.
The answer is we’re not going to unite.
Gun owners being conservative by nature are cantankerous and prone to individualistic habits, and proclivities. We’ll argue about the virtues of a few .001”s of bullet diameter bitterly for crying out loud. We also will not agree to disagree on even the smallest stupidest shit. Not exactly a group of people who are going to unite in any effective fashion for anything any time soon.
Leftists of course love group think and conformity, or seem to and will be united more often than not.
Which is one reason why we keep losing.
I think the exception being when the shooting starts in earnest. At that point I don't care what stupid shit somebody might believe, if they are returning fire in that direction I am probably going to fire in support and send round that direction.
But other than that, yeah, sadly what we have in common is severe individuality and a desire to be left the hell alone and not have to carry protest signs to have our rights respected.
Coal Dragger
11-14-20, 00:53
Add to that the fact that most of us who are deep in the rabbit hole that compromises gun culture, shooting sports, hunting, collecting, or whatever your firearms related passion is also have jobs. We all have shit going on in the real world, none of this stuff we’re into is being given away for cheap much less free. So in order to afford our pursuits AND pay our bills, provide for our families, save for retirement, and all that Jazz we have to go to work.
Kind of makes being professional protesters tough. Also makes organizing tough. How many of you can reliably tell someone a week in advance that you will absolutely have time for a meeting or get together that isn’t work or family related? I know I can’t. We’ve all got shit to do that day to day is more important than protesting, or other forms of organized political activities.
No right wing billionaires are paying any of us to get on a bus and go raise hell somewhere. Even if they were, most of us still have too much to lose if we get hemmed up doing dumb rioting shit. So as you point out, and Firefly has as well, none of us are doing shit until we’re pretty much all doing it or can get away with it. Honestly that’s a day I never want to see here, I’ve been in a country engulfed in a war, I don’t want my family to have to deal with that.
Add to that the fact that most of us who are deep in the rabbit hole that compromises gun culture, shooting sports, hunting, collecting, or whatever your firearms related passion is also have jobs. We all have shit going on in the real world, none of this stuff we’re into is being given away for cheap much less free. So in order to afford our pursuits AND pay our bills, provide for our families, save for retirement, and all that Jazz we have to go to work.
Kind of makes being professional protesters tough. Also makes organizing tough. How many of you can reliably tell someone a week in advance that you will absolutely have time for a meeting or get together that isn’t work or family related? I know I can’t. We’ve all got shit to do that day to day is more important than protesting, or other forms of organized political activities.
No right wing billionaires are paying any of us to get on a bus and go raise hell somewhere. Even if they were, most of us still have too much to lose if we get hemmed up doing dumb rioting shit. So as you point out, and Firefly has as well, none of us are doing shit until we’re pretty much all doing it or can get away with it. Honestly that’s a day I never want to see here, I’ve been in a country engulfed in a war, I don’t want my family to have to deal with that.
Big factor. It's even hard to organize regular shoots and that is gun people getting together to shoot guns. When I was in Ft. Lauderdale I was a member of probably half a dozen shooting clubs, the only one that regularly met once a week for pistol shooting then pizza amounted to about 5 guys who always showed up.
No right wing billionaires are paying any of us to get on a bus and go raise hell somewhere. Even if they were, most of us still have too much to lose if we get hemmed up doing dumb rioting shit. So as you point out, and Firefly has as well, none of us are doing shit until we’re pretty much all doing it or can get away with it. Honestly that’s a day I never want to see here, I’ve been in a country engulfed in a war, I don’t want my family to have to deal with that.
Not just busses. Planes too. First hand account from a close friend co-worker: "Oh... We're paid protestors. They are flying us to Philly for a big protest." Said by one of a group of about 50 getting on a red eye from LAX.
SteyrAUG,
Like I said earlier here in TN they use TICS, not NICS. You're an FFL so obviously you're aware of what info goes to NICS. The reverse traces from manufacturer on down is a good point I hadn't though of.
That said, IIRC the facility in Martinsburg, WV is a data storage one. Rather large from what I've read. Why would ATF need that? Most likely explanation isn't NICS records being kept as you point out, but instead a painstakingly slow and tedious effort to digitalize the 4473's they've gotten over the years from retired FFL's and the ones they occasionally scan when doing inspections. They wouldn't necessarily need to go all the way back to GCA '68 either, mainly focus on those 4473's from, say, 1990 onward where EBR's, dreaded "assault weapons", and semi-auto pistols began to be prominent in sales. I have no doubt those are the items they are interested in, not Pee-Paw's old 12 gauge or your dad's .357 revolver.
My understanding of the West Virginia data storage facility is that it's for all federal agencies primarily FBI but others as well.
Data warehouses in stable low-cost power locations are a thing now.
My understanding of the West Virginia data storage facility is that it's for all federal agencies primarily FBI but others as well.
Data warehouses in stable low-cost power locations are a thing now.
NSA has theirs out in Utah I believe it is.
So the Clarksburg West Virginia facility is primarily FBI NCIC and data clearing house for law enforcement.
It is where background check information is referenced and probably held.
But relative to fingerprint database and similar is probably a tiny part of the function.
Asking for a friend - how secure and protected are these facilities?
Andy
Speaking from the commercial cloud data side, the facilities are fairly well protected and fault tolerant. Data is also replicated within the facility as well as to multiple other facilities in different geographic regions. It would be practically impossible to cause data loss by knocking out a single facility.
Asking for a friend - how secure and protected are these facilities?
Andy
If the NSA site is the standard, VERY. The infrastructure required to operate it, not so much. Data centers require LOTS of power and LOTS of water for cooling. Without both, no worky.
Just an infrastructure guy talking shop. Nothing to see here.
Hi NSA guys! ;)
SteyrAUG,
Like I said earlier here in TN they use TICS, not NICS. You're an FFL so obviously you're aware of what info goes to NICS. The reverse traces from manufacturer on down is a good point I hadn't though of.
That said, IIRC the facility in Martinsburg, WV is a data storage one. Rather large from what I've read. Why would ATF need that? Most likely explanation isn't NICS records being kept as you point out, but instead a painstakingly slow and tedious effort to digitalize the 4473's they've gotten over the years from retired FFL's and the ones they occasionally scan when doing inspections. They wouldn't necessarily need to go all the way back to GCA '68 either, mainly focus on those 4473's from, say, 1990 onward where EBR's, dreaded "assault weapons", and semi-auto pistols began to be prominent in sales. I have no doubt those are the items they are interested in, not Pee-Paw's old 12 gauge or your dad's .357 revolver.
Yeah, I did catch where you said your state was taking that info. Some do, most still don't.
As far as a storage facility, I imagine it's a warehouse full of hard copies and an attempt to scan and go paperless. But it still gives them a dramatically incomplete picture. Here is another problem, they have a 4473 of Fred in GA who bought two Colt 6520s in 1993, do you understand how many times those rifles potentially changed hands since then? Could easily have been through a dozen different owners in 10 different states. So again it's a long way away from the fictional database ATF wishes they had.
So again, it's a legit concern and merits keeping an eye on, but don't get swayed into thinking it's Threat No. 1. And the tip off isn't some boogeyman legislation that so far hasn't been introduced yet, the tip off is when they require a background check for any and all firearm sales (gunshow loophole nonsense) because at that point they can start tracking everything (except of course criminal transactions) and simply add make, model and serial number requirements.
Then and only then, will the possibility of a national firearms registry exist, but keep in mind when they tried it in Canada it was unsustainable.
If the NSA site is the standard, VERY. The infrastructure required to operate it, not so much. Data centers require LOTS of power and LOTS of water for cooling. Without both, no worky.
Just an infrastructure guy talking shop. Nothing to see here.
Hi NSA guys! ;)
But the folks who work there go home to their non secure neighborhoods using lightly patrolled routes?
Andy
Ya'll NSA/FBI types are always welcome to stop by. My address is 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Washington DC
NSA has theirs out in Utah I believe it is.
Yup, right across the street from Camp Williams' front gate. In fact, you can see the facility, at least the above-ground portion, from the base. I'm told it uses more water daily than all of Salt Lake City.
The_War_Wagon
11-15-20, 06:04
I’m sure they won’t abuse any of that power. I mean after all it’s the atf , They’re a good group of people.
UNLIMITED expense account. Now who would EVER abuse THAT?! :rolleyes:
Solzhenitsyn baby Solzhenitsyn
ChattanoogaPhil
11-21-20, 18:19
I wouldn't be surprised if the number of NFA examiners was cut. Increase the wait time to a couple years... effectively banning sales. The general public nor most gun owners care about suppressors, SBRs or machine guns. Blowing up wait times would require no congressional action and be politically painless.
titsonritz
12-11-20, 11:04
It's already starting. Fasten your seats belts boy it's going to be one hell of a ride for the next 4 years. I sure hope we somehow manage to keep the Senate and sweep the House in 2022 or we're completely screwed.
Biden Pressured To Create Cabinet Position On Gun Control (https://bearingarms.com/cam-e/2020/12/10/biden-pressured-cabinet-gun-control/)
BREAKING: Polymer80 Raided By ATF In An Apparent Move Against “Ghost Guns” (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-raided-ghost-guns/?fbclid=IwAR2d4IHJwunizpDG8R4sCJVQ489fUs98hHEjYoVnXntUSv8t2IFrlh4C_TQ)
It's already starting. Fasten your seats belts boy it's going to be one hell of a ride for the next 4 years. I sure hope we somehow manage to keep the Senate and sweep the House in 2022 or we're completely screwed.
Biden Pressured To Create Cabinet Position On Gun Control (https://bearingarms.com/cam-e/2020/12/10/biden-pressured-cabinet-gun-control/)
BREAKING: Polymer80 Raided By ATF In An Apparent Move Against “Ghost Guns” (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-raided-ghost-guns/?fbclid=IwAR2d4IHJwunizpDG8R4sCJVQ489fUs98hHEjYoVnXntUSv8t2IFrlh4C_TQ)
Any manufacture of 80% receivers should have known they were in the cross hairs and I hope they have all their shit in order.
From the article: "The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place."
If they completed manufacture of a receiver without recording it, if they tried to skirt excise taxes, if they shipped across lines without a FFL on the receiving end or conducted sales without a NICS check they will be in deep doo doo.
There is no shortage of people who did dumb shit who are now jammed up with ATF and functioning as "cooperative witnesses" who will talk big shit on the internet about "second amendment absolutist rights" and then see if they can get anyone "individuals, dealers or manufacturers" to do ANYTHING illegal. ATF absolutely has a "12 easy ways to get you" playbook and they will send in dozens of informants seeing if anyone is willing to do business in the margins.
I'm pretty sure I encountered about half a dozen during my time as a FFL in South Florida. Knowing how to say "Can't help you with that...this is how you'd have to do it legally so nobody gets into trouble" probably kept me off the watch list for the remainder of the year.
Yup, right across the street from Camp Williams' front gate. In fact, you can see the facility, at least the above-ground portion, from the base. I'm told it uses more water daily than all of Salt Lake City.
Yeah I used to drive by it every week on the way to music lessons. Now 1/2 the time we go down I15 and not Redwood rd but it is there, with a couple UHP cars with lights flashing to deter people from getting to close.
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