View Full Version : Syria Envoy Admits Hiding US Troop Numbers from White House
Grand58742
11-13-20, 19:19
You see, this is the kind of crap that ends up backfiring hugely on Administrations.
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2020/11/outgoing-syria-envoy-admits-hiding-us-troop-numbers-praises-trumps-mideast-record/170012/
In 2018 and again in October of 2019, when Trump repeated the withdrawal order, the president boasted that ISIS was “defeated.” But each time, the president was convinced to leave a residual force in Syria and the fight continued.
“What Syria withdrawal? There was never a Syria withdrawal,” Jeffrey said. “When the situation in northeast Syria had been fairly stable after we defeated ISIS, [Trump] was inclined to pull out. In each case, we then decided to come up with five better arguments for why we needed to stay. And we succeeded both times. That’s the story.”
Officially, Trump last year agreed to keep several hundred U.S. troops — somewhere between 200 and 400, according to varying reports at the time — stationed in northeast Syria to “secure” oil fields held by the United States’ Kurdish allies in the fight against ISIS. It is generally accepted that the actual number is now higher than that — anonymous officials put the number at about 900 today — but the precise figure is classified and remains unknown even, it appears, to members of Trump’s administration keen to end the so-called “forever wars.”
He actually is supportive of Trump's foreign policy especially in the Middle East.
But I think he and whomever misled the lawfully elected Commander in Chief should be criminally charged.
I cannot fathom the thumbing-of-the-nose and outright disregard for authority that has been displayed the last four years, in all facets of government.
I will make a prediction:
Once the likely fraudulent shithead Joe and the 'Ho take office you will suddenly see an enormous respect for judicial decisions ("Why by damned that is a COURT order, how dare you have the audacity to question or ignore it!") as well as totalitarian-like adherence within the military from SecDef on down.
Funny (not) how that will work.
Grand58742
11-13-20, 20:01
I cannot fathom the thumbing-of-the-nose and outright disregard for authority that has been displayed the last four years, in all facets of government.
I will make a prediction:
Once the likely fraudulent shithead Joe and the 'Ho take office you will suddenly see an enormous respect for judicial decisions ("Why by damned that is a COURT order, how dare you have the audacity to question or ignore it!") as well as totalitarian-like adherence within the military from SecDef on down.
Funny (not) how that will work.
To me, this would be appalling regardless of the POTUS. I would have been outraged had it been Obama, Bush 43, Clinton, etc, etc.
You don't keep military members in countries where the Commander in Chief specifically tells you to pull out of. If you want to keep them there, you go to him (or the SecDef or CJCS) and get them on your side and convince the POTUS of the rightness of your position.
I think what's even more appalling is the fact he's bragging about it.
To me, this would be appalling regardless of the POTUS. I would have been outraged had it been Obama, Bush 43, Clinton, etc, etc.
You don't keep military members in countries where the Commander in Chief specifically tells you to pull out of. If you want to keep them there, you go to him (or the SecDef or CJCS) and get them on your side and convince the POTUS of the rightness of your position.
I think what's even more appalling is the fact he's bragging about it.
Sure but the only reason this outright disregard took place was because of WHO was the Commander-in-Chief and rebelliousness/mutiny in most of the government was so widespread that it only served to embolden just about everyone else.
I think this sort of thing may have happened to other Presidents throughout history. I still wonder how much Ronald Reagan fully knew what was going on during his second term? Sometimes the President is only face of the administration and the real power players are behind the scenes.
You see, this is the kind of crap that ends up backfiring hugely on Administrations.
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2020/11/outgoing-syria-envoy-admits-hiding-us-troop-numbers-praises-trumps-mideast-record/170012/
He actually is supportive of Trump's foreign policy especially in the Middle East.
But I think he and whomever misled the lawfully elected Commander in Chief should be criminally charged.
You realize there’s a lot more to it than just this story right?
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HardToHandle
11-13-20, 21:58
How many permanent and acting Secretaries of Defense have we had since 2016?
Does anyone know who is the National Security Advisor? Does the President recall?
Does it bother anyone that we had to elect Biden to get a legal Secretary of Homeland Security? And remember, that is with a Senate held by the Presidents’ party.
National Security policy has been an utter disaster since 2016. You cannot expect the boots on the ground to implement a lack of policy.
The bigger issue is how complicit is Secretary Pompeo, who at least has a history as a somewhat serious guy? He may be the only adult left in the Situation Room.
Grand58742
11-13-20, 22:33
You realize there’s a lot more to it than just this story right?
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Please enlighten me.
Please enlighten me.
Well no but it seems logical that one would assume a single article won’t have all of the facts - especially when we’re talking about SOF units in foreign conflicts.
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I cannot fathom the thumbing-of-the-nose and outright disregard for authority that has been displayed the last four years, in all facets of government.
I will make a prediction:
Once the likely fraudulent shithead Joe and the 'Ho take office you will suddenly see an enormous respect for judicial decisions ("Why by damned that is a COURT order, how dare you have the audacity to question or ignore it!") as well as totalitarian-like adherence within the military from SecDef on down.
Funny (not) how that will work.
this is Trumps' fault though. He wields immense power in the office and didn't use it. He should have started by purging the military, fbi, atf etc of obama persons and put in freedom loving constitutionalists. I'd of shitcanned everyone and started over
Grand58742
11-13-20, 23:43
Well no but it seems logical that one would assume a single article won’t have all of the facts - especially when we’re talking about SOF units in foreign conflicts.
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Oh, I'm sure there are all sorts of covert ops. However, to blatantly disobey the President is another matter entirely.
Oh, I'm sure there are all sorts of covert ops. However, to blatantly disobey the President is another matter entirely.
Do you think it’s worth it to brief the president every time there’s a slight increase in personnel?
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this is Trumps' fault though. He wields immense power in the office and didn't use it. He should have started by purging the military, fbi, atf etc of obama persons and put in freedom loving constitutionalists. I'd of shitcanned everyone and started over
Purging leadership of every government entirety AND the military is a huge red flag for a dictator attempting to consolidate power bro. Should we just say “heil” as well?
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Grand58742
11-14-20, 01:54
Do you think it’s worth it to brief the president every time there’s a slight increase in personnel?
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Did you read the article?
It wasn't a "slight increase" in personnel. It was openly defying the order to leave the country.
How many permanent and acting Secretaries of Defense have we had since 2016?
Does anyone know who is the National Security Advisor? Does the President recall?
Does it bother anyone that WE had to elect Biden to get a legal Secretary of Homeland Security? And remember, that is with a Senate held by the Presidents’ party.
National Security policy has been an utter disaster since 2016. You cannot expect the boots on the ground to implement a lack of policy.
The bigger issue is how complicit is Secretary Pompeo, who at least has a history as a somewhat serious guy? He may be the only adult left in the Situation Room.
Who is "we", you and the mouse in your pocket? "We" didn't elect Joe and the Ho', YOU and your ilk did.
And what exactly is "an utter disaster" about our foreign policy? Our adversaries fear us which is a good thing. They know Trump don't play. Now we will once again revert back to the weak-spined Democrat foreign policy we had for 8 years under Obama and 8 years under Clinton. You know, the typical mamby-pamby bullshit where the world laughs at us instead of respecting or fearing us. I can hardly wait.
Purging leadership of every government entirety AND the military is a huge red flag for a dictator attempting to consolidate power bro. Should we just say “heil” as well?
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And that’s any different than firing all the AGs who serve at the pleasure of the president when a new president comes in how?
The executive is the executive for a reason
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Who is "we", you and the mouse in your pocket? "We" didn't elect Joe and the Ho', YOU and your ilk did.
And what exactly is "an utter disaster" about our foreign policy? Our adversaries fear us which is a good thing. They know Trump don't play. Now we will once again revert back to the weak-spined Democrat foreign policy we had for 8 years under Obama and 8 years under Clinton. You know, the typical mamby-pamby bullshit where the world laughs at us instead of respecting or fearing us. I can hardly wait.
He’s just salty we haven’t been running and gunning as the the worlds police force like we use to.
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Purging leadership of every government entirety AND the military is a huge red flag for a dictator attempting to consolidate power bro. Should we just say “heil” as well?
Sorry dude but that is exactly what Trump should have done. Not as much the military (although would certainly need to be looked at) but within the Federal government. Leftist and Deep State holdovers imbedded into our Federal infrastructure brought many of his problems the last four years. FBI anyone?
You've been in the military for a while, right? Do you recall Obama's "Soft Purge" a few years back? IIRC it focused on O-6 and above. That gave us the decidedly Left-leaning flag officers we have now.
And that’s any different than firing all the AGs who serve at the pleasure of the president when a new president comes in how?
The executive is the executive for a reason
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AGs aren't the heads of the military. Even if you change the SECDEF and secretary of each branch, POTUS can't just fire all of the generals too.
Averageman
11-14-20, 12:09
Sorry dude but that is exactly what Trump should have done. Not as much the military (although would certainly need to be looked at) but within the Federal government. Leftist and Deep State holdovers imbedded into our Federal infrastructure brought many of his problems the last four years. FBI anyone?
You've been in the military for a while, right? Do you recall Obama's "Soft Purge" a few years back? IIRC it focused on O-6 and above. That gave us the decidedly Left-leaning flag officers we have now.
The traps laid by the Obama Administration are pretty unprecedented, I mean who would have guessed Comey of all people would be a traitor to the President and manage to drag this out for eighteen months?
You do realize that these same people who were involved in all of this were just as likely working in the background of this entire "Mail in Voting fraud Operation" right?
We're just screwed, it's that simple, these people are the ones pulling the strings, we are just free range tax payers that get milked for every nickle we make.
Grand58742
11-14-20, 14:07
I mean, can we all agree this is a really bad precedent to be setting for military forces (including civilian oversight) to be disregarding what the POTUS orders?
Taking Trump out of the mix, the military does not have the authority to just do whatever the hell they want. It's not like the POTUS was asking them to napalm a village or commit war crimes. His orders were a withdrawal down to 200 personnel in country. That order was disobeyed.
Heads should roll over such things. If only to set standard for anyone considering it in the future.
Diamondback
11-14-20, 15:04
I mean, can we all agree this is a really bad precedent to be setting for military forces (including civilian oversight) to be disregarding what the POTUS orders?
Taking Trump out of the mix, the military does not have the authority to just do whatever the hell they want. It's not like the POTUS was asking them to napalm a village or commit war crimes. His orders were a withdrawal down to 200 personnel in country. That order was disobeyed.
Heads should roll over such things. If only to set standard for anyone considering it in the future.
This is why I say *everyone* on Schedule C should be dismissed without exception and invited to re-apply for their former jobs.
Averageman
11-15-20, 06:47
Imagine a huge VBIED coming in busting the gate and killing 400 troops after the envoy had told the POTUS for the last 18 months less than 200 in Country?
WTF? These people have gone rogue.
Imagine a huge VBIED coming in busting the gate and killing 400 troops after the envoy had told the POTUS for the last 18 months less than 200 in Country?
WTF? These people have gone rogue.
The last four years have been rife with subversion from the establishment because the people dared to elect an "outsider". The machine will make sure that doesn't happen again as evidenced in the current election.
Averageman
11-15-20, 07:41
The last four years have been rife with subversion from the establishment because the people dared to elect an "outsider". The machine will make sure that doesn't happen again as evidenced in the current election.
I'm really not sure how admitting to this doesn't get you a walk out back and a bullet in the head.
Bitch about Trump's personality all you like, but the Establishment reaction to his election has done more to harm the United States than anything else over the last four years.
What could have been accomplished, we may never know.
Did you read the article?
It wasn't a "slight increase" in personnel. It was openly defying the order to leave the country.
I did and found it (assuming it portrays him correctly) very balanced. It may sound like blatant disobedience and may actually have been, but there is absolutely more to it that can not be discussed. Whether I agree with it or not, real life, especially with foreign military affairs, has proven to be far more messy than that article can allude to and I've personally been involved in situations where subordinates feel like they've been given conflicting guidance and must decide on where to test their left and right limits. That's part of a commander's job.
Imagine a huge VBIED coming in busting the gate and killing 400 troops after the envoy had told the POTUS for the last 18 months less than 200 in Country?
WTF? These people have gone rogue.
No VBIED has ever rolled through a gate and killed 400 people. To even assume that every servicemember is even working behind the same gate shows an obvious disconnect with reality so maybe just sit this one out.
Grand58742
11-15-20, 09:48
I did and found it (assuming it portrays him correctly) very balanced. It may sound like blatant disobedience and may actually have been, but there is absolutely more to it that can not be discussed. Whether I agree with it or not, real life, especially with foreign military affairs, has proven to be far more messy than that article can allude to and I've personally been involved in situations where subordinates feel like they've been given conflicting guidance and must decide on where to test their left and right limits. That's part of a commander's job.
Was the Commander in Chief asking them to do something illegal? Was he asking for war crimes to be committed?
Was there anything illegal about the order to withdraw? Was there anything murky about the order to withdraw?
No, you are not going to sit here and give this "conflicting orders" speech with me. Just in case you forgot your oath:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
The POTUS said to get out. This "left and right" BS you posted is nothing more than you trying to justify to yourself someone actively defied the sitting Commander in Chief. And again, that's an extremely dangerous precedent to be starting for the military. We aren't talking about Area 51 and aliens plausible deniability here. We are talking the President of the United States made policy, gave an order and those underneath him refused to carry it out and hid that fact from him.
Now, you want to try some additional mental gymnastics on how this can be portrayed any other way?
Was the Commander in Chief asking them to do something illegal? Was he asking for war crimes to be committed?
Was there anything illegal about the order to withdraw? Was there anything murky about the order to withdraw?
No, you are not going to sit here and give this "conflicting orders" speech with me. Just in case you forgot your oath:
The POTUS said to get out. This "left and right" BS you posted is nothing more than you trying to justify to yourself someone actively defied the sitting Commander in Chief. And again, that's an extremely dangerous precedent to be starting for the military. We aren't talking about Area 51 and aliens plausible deniability here. We are talking the President of the United States made policy, gave an order and those underneath him refused to carry it out and hid that fact from him.
Now, you want to try some additional mental gymnastics on how this can be portrayed any other way?
I’m curious what exactly you did in the military that’s given you such a black and white outlook on SOF in low density conflicts.
As much as I support POTUS, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out he changes his mind quite often.
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Averageman
11-16-20, 05:18
No VBIED has ever rolled through a gate and killed 400 people. To even assume that every servicemember is even working behind the same gate shows an obvious disconnect with reality so maybe just sit this one out.
So no VBIED, could ever kill 400 people?
I dunno, I believe Tim Macveigh killed 168 and wounded another six hundred or so. Perhaps had the explosion happened a bit later than 0900 he would have killed many more.
So when the numbers of troops raises, the Military always goes "Security First" and makes sure a VBIED could never make it in?
I dunno Khobar Towers kind of dispels that myth doesn't it? 19 Air Force troops were killed and another more than 400 wounded. Hmmm.
Okay, I guess. You sound like a been there and done that kind of guy. So if it has been done, well, don't go out there and push the big wooden horse through the gate this time.
The thing about lying to the Boss while in the Military is, the truth is always out there and it's eventually going to be reported in one document or another. So it's going to be in front of his nose at one time or another, you're just betting/hoping he doesn't see it.
This jerk got caught trying to lie to the POTUS while engaged with an enemy force in an overseas area. You can't shoot him fast enough or bury him deep enough.
Grand58742
11-16-20, 06:49
I’m curious what exactly you did in the military that’s given you such a black and white outlook on SOF in low density conflicts.
As much as I support POTUS, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out he changes his mind quite often.
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I'm curious how you can construe anything other than a "withdraw" order as a black and white situation.
Averageman
11-16-20, 07:18
I'm curious how you can construe anything other than a "withdraw" order as a black and white situation.
So how much fraud had to happen for 200 Troops, to feed, fuel and provide ammo for, actually 900 Troops?
Hundreds of Millions of Dollars I would guess....
Grand58742
11-16-20, 07:33
So how much fraud had to happen for 200 Troops, to feed, fuel and provide ammo for, actually 900 Troops?
Hundreds of Millions of Dollars I would guess....
It's very likely the boots on the ground didn't know exactly how many were in country. I'm not going to blame the sword for the hand that wields it as they were probably told "go" and likely felt the orders were given from the top. Plus, the funds normally given for such a thing get lost in the budget of hundreds of billions and could have been overlooked easily.
This is on the oversight and civilian leadership. It's one thing to get covert POTUS approval for staying at higher numbers. But from that article, it seems like they made sure Trump was in the dark about it. And that right there is scary enough to cause concern. The audacity of bragging about it is what gets me.
So no VBIED, could ever kill 400 people?
I dunno, I believe Tim Macveigh killed 168 and wounded another six hundred or so. Perhaps had the explosion happened a bit later than 0900 he would have killed many more.
So when the numbers of troops raises, the Military always goes "Security First" and makes sure a VBIED could never make it in?
I dunno Khobar Towers kind of dispels that myth doesn't it? 19 Air Force troops were killed and another more than 400 wounded. Hmmm.
Okay, I guess. You sound like a been there and done that kind of guy. So if it has been done, well, don't go out there and push the big wooden horse through the gate this time.
The thing about lying to the Boss while in the Military is, the truth is always out there and it's eventually going to be reported in one document or another. So it's going to be in front of his nose at one time or another, you're just betting/hoping he doesn't see it.
This jerk got caught trying to lie to the POTUS while engaged with an enemy force in an overseas area. You can't shoot him fast enough or bury him deep enough.
You said kill, not wound. And either way, your scenario was still based on the fact that every single US servicemember in Syria was in the same location. Possible I guess, but doesn't seem likely.
I'm curious how you can construe anything other than a "withdraw" order as a black and white situation.
Seems like you have no experience and are lacking the ability to think critically and understand there are considerations of which you are unaware. But one article said something so hang this guy for treason.
Grand58742
11-16-20, 08:02
Seems like you have no experience and are lacking the ability to think critically and understand there are considerations of which you are unaware. But one article said something so hang this guy for treason.
I do have my .mil service on the convention side of things to think critically.
Let me ask you think if this article was inaccurate. Why did Trump suddenly fire Esper days after the election? Don't give me the "because of the deep state coup blah, blah, blah." Nobody fires a SecDef right in the middle of an election without a good reason. Now, the real question is how much Miley knew about it and whether or not Trump didn't want to do the clean sweep.
You see, I can think critically about it. I wish you weren't so caught up in the "well, we can disobey orders when we feel the need because we think it's right" BS to think everything through to the logical conclusion. You see, such things damage our credibility far more with our allies and adversaries than having a POTUS they don't like. Because when our military decides to go rogue, that's when the problems arise.
just a scout
11-16-20, 08:04
Purging leadership of every government entirety AND the military is a huge red flag for a dictator attempting to consolidate power bro. Should we just say “heil” as well?
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Really? Day One Obama fired every single appointee in the Federal government and replaced them with his people. Sieg Heil, Kamerade.
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just a scout
11-16-20, 08:06
And that’s any different than firing all the AGs who serve at the pleasure of the president when a new president comes in how?
The executive is the executive for a reason
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Pussy foreign policies and appeasement end up costing everyone more lives and treasure than just punching a dog in the face. I’d rather have everyone in fear of us than playing us for fools while they steal our treasury and kids.
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just a scout
11-16-20, 08:07
AGs aren't the heads of the military. Even if you change the SECDEF and secretary of each branch, POTUS can't just fire all of the generals too.
IIRC flag officers serve at the pleasure of the President.
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No VBIED has ever rolled through a gate and killed 400 people. To even assume that every servicemember is even working behind the same gate shows an obvious disconnect with reality so maybe just sit this one out.
Well to be fair, that one time they did and killed 241. Of course that's not 400, so.....
How many permanent and acting Secretaries of Defense have we had since 2016?
Does anyone know who is the National Security Advisor? Does the President recall?
Does it bother anyone that we had to elect Biden to get a legal Secretary of Homeland Security? And remember, that is with a Senate held by the Presidents’ party.
National Security policy has been an utter disaster since 2016. You cannot expect the boots on the ground to implement a lack of policy.
The bigger issue is how complicit is Secretary Pompeo, who at least has a history as a somewhat serious guy? He may be the only adult left in the Situation Room.
I smell a deep state troll.
Our foreign policy has been more clear since 2016 than probably at any point in history.
- The normalizing relations with Israel, I suppose, is an example of the "disastrous foreign policy."
- NK Soy boy not launching misses, must be another example of the "disastrous foreign policy."
- Not paying Billions to Iran, must be another example
- Getting out of the Iran accord I suppose is another
- Getting out of the Transpacific rip off I suppose is another
- Getting out of the US funded Paris climate rip off was another
- Getting NATO increased funding was another, I suppose
Trump didn't listen to the self proclaimed experts because they CONTINUALLY get it wrong, intentionally or otherwise. Trump was right far more times than he was wrong.
Educate yourself before you troll this garbage again.
AGs aren't the heads of the military. Even if you change the SECDEF and secretary of each branch, POTUS can't just fire all of the generals too.
You do understand that's exactly what Obama did, right?
When the military command staff disobeys a direct, lawful order of the CinC, they've forfeited any .mil career they might've had left. "Left and right limits" be damned.
Diamondback
11-16-20, 13:53
You do understand that's exactly what Obama did, right?
When the military command staff disobeys a direct, lawful order of the CinC, they've forfeited any .mil career they might've had left. "Left and right limits" be damned.
This. You DO NOT lie to your boss, no matter who or what. Similarly when the service academies rejected the EO banning Critical Race Theory, all responsible should have been summarily dismissed on-the-spot. I was not privileged to serve and even loudmouth filthy subhuman civilian me understands the simple rule that "when given a lawful order the choice is Obey or Resign, no third option."
I do have my .mil service on the convention side of things to think critically.
Let me ask you think if this article was inaccurate. Why did Trump suddenly fire Esper days after the election? Don't give me the "because of the deep state coup blah, blah, blah." Nobody fires a SecDef right in the middle of an election without a good reason. Now, the real question is how much Miley knew about it and whether or not Trump didn't want to do the clean sweep.
You see, I can think critically about it. I wish you weren't so caught up in the "well, we can disobey orders when we feel the need because we think it's right" BS to think everything through to the logical conclusion. You see, such things damage our credibility far more with our allies and adversaries than having a POTUS they don't like. Because when our military decides to go rogue, that's when the problems arise.
I never said the article was inaccurate. I said its not as black and white as Trump ordering to remove troops from a conflict zone and everyone either immediately jumps on a plane or they don't and therefore, someone is disobeying a direct order.
IIRC flag officers serve at the pleasure of the President.
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I smell a deep state troll.
Our foreign policy has been more clear since 2016 than probably at any point in history.
- The normalizing relations with Israel, I suppose, is an example of the "disastrous foreign policy."
- NK Soy boy not launching misses, must be another example of the "disastrous foreign policy."
- Not paying Billions to Iran, must be another example
- Getting out of the Iran accord I suppose is another
- Getting out of the Transpacific rip off I suppose is another
- Getting out of the US funded Paris climate rip off was another
- Getting NATO increased funding was another, I suppose
Trump didn't listen to the self proclaimed experts because they CONTINUALLY get it wrong, intentionally or otherwise. Trump was right far more times than he was wrong.
Educate yourself before you troll this garbage again.
Not to mention we finally took out the head of Iran's state sponsored terrorism after years of knowing that he was violating numerous international laws.
You do understand that's exactly what Obama did, right?
When the military command staff disobeys a direct, lawful order of the CinC, they've forfeited any .mil career they might've had left. "Left and right limits" be damned.
How do you know he didn't change his guidance? Maybe more than once in a relatively short period for such a big move? Maybe following his lawful order one week was disobeying it the next week. What if he issued the order to withdraw, but there was confusion or further guidance was needed and not immediately available so leaders decided to press on with the last order they were sure of understanding?
This. You DO NOT lie to your boss, no matter who or what. Similarly when the service academies rejected the EO banning Critical Race Theory, all responsible should have been summarily dismissed on-the-spot. I was not privileged to serve and even loudmouth filthy subhuman civilian me understands the simple rule that "when given a lawful order the choice is Obey or Resign, no third option."
I don't advocate lying to any boss, but I'm saying it does happen and isn't always deserving of a severe punishment. Real life is never that simple. There is a world of situations where the lawful order is to go right and a subordinate goes left and its not worthy of court martial, trial for treason, and whatever other alarmist reactions are being recommended here. Plenty of times, its for the best because it was done to reach that same endstate of going left in the long-run. If that wasn't true, then there would be no need for commanders at every level in the Army - we'd all just be a mindless horde taking orders from the one guy on the top and following it to the T, regardless of how far detached he may be from the situation.
How do you know he didn't change his guidance? Maybe more than once in a relatively short period for such a big move? Maybe following his lawful order one week was disobeying it the next week. What if he issued the order to withdraw, but there was confusion or further guidance was needed and not immediately available so leaders decided to press on with the last order they were sure of understanding?
Feel free to provide evidence of your theory. Otherwise...
I don't advocate lying to any boss, but I'm saying it does happen and isn't always deserving of a severe punishment. Real life is never that simple. There is a world of situations where the lawful order is to go right and a subordinate goes left and its not worthy of court martial, trial for treason, and whatever other alarmist reactions are being recommended here. Plenty of times, its for the best because it was done to reach that same endstate of going left in the long-run. If that wasn't true, then there would be no need for commanders at every level in the Army - we'd all just be a mindless horde taking orders from the one guy on the top and following it to the T, regardless of how far detached he may be from the situation.
LOL, seriously? Command and Control is, has been and always will be the supreme rule in the military. We're talking about intentionally misleading the CinC on whether or not troop numbers have been reduced in a hostile country as ordered by said CinC. And most of us are saying resign or be forced to resign, not the alarmist reaction you've created out of whole cloth. :rolleyes:
Grand58742
11-16-20, 18:36
I never said the article was inaccurate. I said its not as black and white as Trump ordering to remove troops from a conflict zone and everyone either immediately jumps on a plane or they don't and therefore, someone is disobeying a direct order.
How do you know he didn't change his guidance? Maybe more than once in a relatively short period for such a big move? Maybe following his lawful order one week was disobeying it the next week. What if he issued the order to withdraw, but there was confusion or further guidance was needed and not immediately available so leaders decided to press on with the last order they were sure of understanding?
From the article:
“We were always playing shell games to not make clear to our leadership how many troops we had there,” Jeffrey said in an interview. The actual number of troops in northeast Syria is “a lot more than” the roughly two hundred troops Trump initially agreed to leave there in 2019.
The 200 number is somewhat debatable.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/world/middleeast/trump-troops-syria-.html
Now, in the latest about-face, Mr. Trump has agreed to leave about 400 troops in Syria — 200 in a multinational force in the northeastern part of the country and another 200 at a small outpost in the southeast, where they will seek to counter Iran’s influence throughout the country.
Regardless, if someone was "confused" over the order, how come they had to play a "shell game" to keep the numbers in Syria unclear?
Feel free to provide evidence of your theory. Otherwise...
LOL, seriously? Command and Control is, has been and always will be the supreme rule in the military. We're talking about intentionally misleading the CinC on whether or not troop numbers have been reduced in a hostile country as ordered by said CinC. And most of us are saying resign or be forced to resign, not the alarmist reaction you've created out of whole cloth. :rolleyes:
Its mission command now, just further proof that most here with such strong opinions are way out of the loop. Hell, I'm barely in the loop and my only point this whole time has been that there is more going on than this one article makes clear. That really should be common sense but obviously not since so many of you are clearly read-on to the whole situation.
From the article:
The 200 number is somewhat debatable.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/world/middleeast/trump-troops-syria-.html
Regardless, if someone was "confused" over the order, how come they had to play a "shell game" to keep the numbers in Syria unclear?
There very well may be some personal agenda pushing that happened but again, just knowing that we're talking about SOF in an unconventional conflict should be an indicator that there's more to the story and maybe everyone shouldn't jump to conclusions and demand surrender of those in the government.
Grand58742
11-16-20, 20:17
There very well may be some personal agenda pushing that happened but again, just knowing that we're talking about SOF in an unconventional conflict should be an indicator that there's more to the story and maybe everyone shouldn't jump to conclusions and demand surrender of those in the government.
Regardless of the single article (which should be easy to track down) or if it's headlining on the Fox, CNN and BBC websites, the optics on this are horrible. Again, it looks like the POTUS lost control of the military or that's the way the envoy's words come across.
"DGAF what the POTUS said, we kept X number of forces in a country he told us to get out of. And we did it behind his back."
SOF related or not, that's not the message you want to put out to our allies or especially our adversaries. Because if the POTUS has a military that isn't listening to him, how does that look, lame duck or not? Isn't dissention in the ranks the perfect time to strike? If you are (or were) SOF as I suspect you are, you and I both know when the chain of command breaks down, that's the best time to attack. Especially in today's politically divided climate where you and I both know whatever measures Trump takes is going to be condemned by the Democrats. The man took out the leader responsible for attacking our troops and they took the side of a known terrorist.
This is where we are at as a country. The comments did not need to be made and if they are true (I suspect they are) then heads need to roll. Criminal charges? If, in fact, the allegations are true then yes, they need to be filed.
Treason? Not going that far, but it certainly isn't conduct we should want or need in regards to our military.
I think this sort of thing may have happened to other Presidents throughout history. I still wonder how much Ronald Reagan fully knew what was going on during his second term? Sometimes the President is only face of the administration and the real power players are behind the scenes.
Like this next one
Heads should roll of orders were disobeyed.
Past that I’m not surprised, you can’t NOT keep fighting non stop perpetual wars. The government and the shit bags pulling the strings won’t allow it.
But hey if everything gets spun up again I’m sure will throw more money at Israel so if you’re about that life then you’ll be happy.
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Yeah, you fire someone like this on the spot.
It has to be done. Period. Dot.
you can’t NOT keep fighting non stop perpetual wars. The government and the shit bags pulling the strings won’t allow it.
It sure seems like Trump is trying.
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It sure seems like Trump is trying.
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I'm just really enjoying the show where Trump is the dove and the Democrats are the warhawks and chickenhawks.
Grand58742
11-18-20, 13:10
I'm just really enjoying the show where Trump is the dove and the Democrats are the warhawks and chickenhawks.
Well, it is happening on both sides of the aisle. Apparently the DNC House Armed Services Committee Chair gave his approval of the drawdown in the Stan. The ranking GOP member said "Now hold on! We need to stay!"
**** all those guys who sit comfortably in Washington clamoring for perpetual war without forcing any Admin to come up with a clear exit strategy or mission objectives. We've been in Afghanistan for almost 20 years now. It's time to crap or get off the pot because I can't see a thing in that country worth spending any more of our money or lives for.
Grand58742
11-18-20, 13:15
And for the record, I'm not isolationist or non-interventionist. I do believe there are times we have to go to the front door of some folks in the world and kick them in the balls when they deserve it.
I am, however, completely against occupying a country with no clear end in sight or for "nation building" reasons.
It sure seems like Trump is trying.
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After Bibi and the AIPAC backstabbing I hope he gives missile tech to everyone.
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