View Full Version : How Long Will Covid Restrictions Remain In Place...?
With most service industry stuff it is no longer "in person" and that means more outsourcing and fewer employees working longer hours.
Anything food service has been pretty devastated. Anything fast food limited to drive through only means 2/3s of the employees have been let go. Anyone who waited tables probably hasn't worked in the last 6 months.
And everything else, limited hours are the norm. Did your walmart used to be 24 hour? Now they probably close at 10pm or sooner. Anything that used to be open until 9 or 10pm now closes at 6pm.
Suffice to say everyone who ran out and bought a big screen tv with their "covid" check is now probably regretting it unless they are one of those rare "essential workers" in one of the few industries not directly effected.
More people probably lost their jobs in 2020 and we may very likely hit an unemployment rate of 9.9 or higher as we saw in 2009 following the housing market crash. And I don't think another stimulus check is going to be anything more than a band aid on a gushing wound. Maybe that's why the Republicans didn't seem to try very hard to win the election.
Also concerned this could be a "new normal" for the next year or even two. And we thought 9-11 changed things in a big way.
PracticalRifleman
11-17-20, 18:34
Many changes will be permanent. I think ultimately, it will result in a large out exodus from major cities by those working in industries which can be done remotely. Housing and commercial property in major cities will plummet in price.
It will have many rethinking minimum wage laws as many would rather work for less than not work now that their jobs are being replaced by a kiosk.
Americans are going to get back to saving money, if they can afford it.
“Prepper” types are going to seem more rational, but social media is going to play a larger part in our lives, including providing the “news”.
There will be a greater dependence on government, by design.
There will be taxes placed on at-home workers to offset fuel tax and transportation taxes, tax on rent, and dining. Even retailers selling business attire are going to lose sales to casual wear.
We are diminished and changed forever.
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And don't think that the ComDems will not use Covid to further their communist agenda through government overreach the like of which has never been seen before.
BoringGuy45
11-17-20, 18:57
I could see some ComDems pushing for masks and social distancing to become permanent law even after the pandemic in order to "prevent" the next one.
john armond
11-17-20, 19:07
I could see some ComDems pushing for masks and social distancing to become permanent law even after the pandemic in order to "prevent" the next one.
Already being pushed by the experts we are to blindly follow:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/11/13/dr-anthony-fauci-americans-must-do-what-youre-told-despite-independent-spirit/
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/wearing-masks-forever-what-experts-think-181407868.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEOV7vkmvWPjEihFT7n0akrOt3s5PshXW8UBR6G1zhFkewV3bkEn_makTY4FPXETIuaXIYxbZ4SEpDikmTIY6Yh-qds9bRVZLMbc4CygHzV-BYhu-kLkUkWtjePWJKLPncLMG1WGrY3hzlb48dLKv_-vXBxrw-txrjTiIr8uT1rf
ETA: the final line in the second article is “Masks may simply become part of life.”
How long?
https://media4.giphy.com/media/l4FB8FfpphPmxdTkA/giphy.gif
If they get their way.
I keep hearing rumors about how a second lockdown might be necessary, and given the way I'm seeing the news panicking over the upcoming 'twindemic'...I wouldn't be surprised, if not that than at least they try to either drastically expand other 'mandates' or make various things permanent.
I can't wait to see the riots when they try to implement the home-work tax....
HardToHandle
11-17-20, 19:28
Realistically we have six more months of pretty massive deaths and illness, even with vaccine distribution.
Vaccine may save the second half of 2021 - maybe a decent fall of school, Halloween and Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, Joe Biden’s death toll predictions may end up being unfortunately too close to accurate. The COVID death toll is rising way faster than .4% mortality right now - and we only have three or four states with exhausted hospitals. At the present trend lines, post Thanksgiving will become ugly and Christmas may be grim.
My guess is redder states in the north will start to lift February-March. My guess is the Southern states will be getting shellacked through the first of quarter of 2021. Summer of 2021 will get us back into the new normal. 10% unemployment is real, especially depending on what the federal relief/unemployment policy comes out as.... Pelosi’s game of chicken on no COVID relief played out terribly for her, but she has such a dysfunctional caucus that they cannot come together to offer a different approach. Biden will be handed the ball in January to try to make deal with the Senate.
Diamondback
11-17-20, 20:01
Wu-Tang Clap is this generation's 9-11, "the day America died." Just like the Reagan Revolution, the JFK assassination, WWII, there seems to be something big every 20-25 years like clockwork.
Grand58742
11-17-20, 20:14
Already being pushed by the experts we are to blindly follow:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/11/13/dr-anthony-fauci-americans-must-do-what-youre-told-despite-independent-spirit/
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/wearing-masks-forever-what-experts-think-181407868.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEOV7vkmvWPjEihFT7n0akrOt3s5PshXW8UBR6G1zhFkewV3bkEn_makTY4FPXETIuaXIYxbZ4SEpDikmTIY6Yh-qds9bRVZLMbc4CygHzV-BYhu-kLkUkWtjePWJKLPncLMG1WGrY3hzlb48dLKv_-vXBxrw-txrjTiIr8uT1rf
ETA: the final line in the second article is “Masks may simply become part of life.”
Fauci is also the moron that suggested people should buy face shields to go with their masks. I think that's the point I stopped listening to his advice because we cannot wrap up in bubble wrap our whole lives and be "safe." This virus isn't bad enough to change the entire paradigm of modern society and I reject any notion of wearing masks for the rest of our lives.
I thought we were reaching the breaking point with a lot of civil disobedience with the whole COVID situation and any new measures were going to face significant backlash from the public. But it's like April all over again with people doing their best Oliver Twist imitation asking "Please Sir, I want some more..." as more Governors are enacting draconian measures all over again. Summer was a time when people freed themselves up and learned they could live with the virus and even if they caught it, chances are they would have little trouble with it and the vast majority were not hospitalized.
But here we are in November with the same scare tactics being put out by the media and we got scared all over again... I had hoped people would see the light over the summer and see the massive government overreach into their lives. But again, they are perfectly content with allowing the media to scare them yet again.
As other have noted, the restaurant industry is decimated especially in places that have kept COVID restrictions in place longer than others like New York and California. Some places will never reopen. Larger chains are taking a hit.
Airline travel will never be the same. The tourism industry as a whole can be taken out and buried after this year and it will take years to recover if some places ever can recover.
I think more industries will start having serious discussions on whether or not they should consider themselves "essential" since the term is uniquely vague and not often described by the local or state governments.
In person entertainment and sporting events will take years to return to normal crowd levels even with a vaccine.
People, as others have noted, will become even more dependent on the system if the government continues their stimulus and unemployment compensation levels like we saw through this past spring and summer. Because when you make more to sit on your ass at home rather than work, what's the point in working?
Unemployment numbers will rise again this winter prompting that very same situation to arise. And even more "non-essential" businesses will fail because workers just won't work since it's financially better for them to sit at home and collect their $800 a week.
Brick and mortar stores without an online option will fail even more. Big online retailers like Walmart and Amazon will thrive (drawing criticism from the left of course)
As other have stated, even fashion industries and clothing manufacturers will take a hit.
Not even going to mention the detriments to societal interaction we will have to overcome in the future as people get scared each and every time someone coughs or sneezes. Those with sensitive allergies will become like lepers in the general community.
Now, there are some "silver linings" so to speak...
Families, especially those who have been working from home, have rediscovered the value of "family dinner" as a time to connect with one another. People are learning how to cook and, well, dang it, that's fairly cheap to do instead of ordering out as much. Families are spending quality time together in ways we haven't seen since the 80s in my opinion.
Parents are learning their children might not be the angels they thought them to be and have not been so quick to attack teachers these days with failing grades. I'm friends with a teacher in one of the school districts out here and she has said the parents have a newfound appreciation for what they go through since they are seeing firsthand how "my baby didn't do nuffin" doesn't always apply to their spawn of hell (her words, not mine).
People are rediscovering their neighborhoods and neighbors as well. While yes, we have become more isolated and less interpersonal, I've seen the rise of more neighbors starting to talk to each other even at a distance and help each other in times of need. I went out myself last weekend helping a neighbor clear her property of downed trees from our ice storm. Two other neighbors pitched in as well. Maybe that's just an Oklahoma thing? But it seems like I've connected with my neighbors more in the last six months that in the previous six years.
I believe people are starting to live within their means more each and every day, especially those who's jobs are sometimes week to week on whether they get a pick slip. As someone said, they are saving more and buying less "nice to have" as opposed to need to have. Buying that 75 inch LED TV suddenly becomes a way, way, way down on the list of things to pick up when faced with the possibility of unemployment this winter and their furnace needed replacement a couple of years ago, but they kept putting it off.
As Steyr mentioned, stores are closing earlier or not doing 24 hour operations. But let's face facts here, Walmart, save maybe a few locations here and there, never really needed to be 24 hours as it is. Not to the extent they did that. Stores closing earlier isn't a bad thing in my opinion.
Speaking of, the Black Friday stupidity will be curtailed this year which is a good thing.
There is a lot of negative to what we are doing and where we are as a society, but there are a few good things as well. But the artificially induced negative effects of this virus will take years if not decades to overcome. For what reason? What will we learn from it?
Not everywhere is as bad as Steyr has outlined.
A lot of the restaurants, fast food or otherwise, are open for dine-in (with spaced tables, masks required) in Utah and many of them are hiring. I don't know about places that actually waited on tables, as I have not been to one of those, but I believe many of them are also open. There are still some that are take-out only or work through the delivery companies. It seems more dependent on who runs the franchise, when speaking of fast food,
Most of the stores, Walmart included, are back to their normal hours. (Our Walmarts had mostly all gone off 24 hours open a couple years ago).
I personally think a lot of this damage is self-inflicted -- governors exercising power rather than doing prudent measures. Looking at the death rate, it has been pretty level since early spring, with a big bulge up at the very beginning and now for the last couple weeks, while the case rate has climbed at a higher rate.
The most concerning thing for me, at least in Utah, is the flood of new cases is leading to the hospitals starting to fill up and exhaustion by the medical staff. My wife is an ICU nurse and she cares for Covid patiens some days (she normally is cardiac ICU) and she says that the respiratory and thoracic ICUs have had really heavy turn over from burned out nurses.
Zero medical background, but I work up on the Canadian border with CBP. We’ve been estimating the border reopening in the April 2021 timeframe... with the vaccine effectiveness being the major factor.
Personally, I feel it all is too reactive of responses. We didn’t have mandatory mask wearing with travelers until May 2020 timeframe... which I feel was way too late to worry about exposure.
All of CBP in ME have recently made it mandatory to wear a mask at all times at work (it sucks), which was timed with the Governor making it a requirement in all businesses/public areas. Again, I feel it was too little, too late... and most of us are annoyed with it since it clearly isn’t in response to officer safety...
Whether or not masks are the way, the entire response puts too much emphasis on it. People put on a mask, and they now think they are safe. Not washing hands, you are just as risk... if not more because you are now bringing your hands up to your face. At least without masks, we tended to keep our six feet distance when possible.
But working for a plumbing company prior to my current job, I can say even N-95 masks aren’t protecting as people make them out to. Concrete dust, cast iron dust, drywall dust... all of which ended up inside the mask and was blown out of my nose when I showered after work.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201118/46f707728913bb2e04a9409e1a82ca7f.jpg
With most service industry stuff it is no longer "in person" and that means more outsourcing and fewer employees working longer hours.
Anything food service has been pretty devastated. Anything fast food limited to drive through only means 2/3s of the employees have been let go. Anyone who waited tables probably hasn't worked in the last 6 months.
And everything else, limited hours are the norm. Did your walmart used to be 24 hour? Now they probably close at 10pm or sooner. Anything that used to be open until 9 or 10pm now closes at 6pm.
Suffice to say everyone who ran out and bought a big screen tv with their "covid" check is now probably regretting it unless they are one of those rare "essential workers" in one of the few industries not directly effected.
More people probably lost their jobs in 2020 and we may very likely hit an unemployment rate of 9.9 or higher as we saw in 2009 following the housing market crash. And I don't think another stimulus check is going to be anything more than a band aid on a gushing wound. Maybe that's why the Republicans didn't seem to try very hard to win the election.
Also concerned this could be a "new normal" for the next year or even two. And we thought 9-11 changed things in a big way.
My sister's second job is a server and since March they've been packed. First it was nothing but deliveries. Those who waited tables were working in the kitchen helping prepare food. Then, once allowed to open they've been packed. People call in for reservations and wait in their cars.
Walmart is open 24/7 here
Americans love spending money and will be back to glutenous spending in no time.
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Realistically we have six more months of pretty massive deaths and illness, even with vaccine distribution.
Vaccine may save the second half of 2021 - maybe a decent fall of school, Halloween and Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, Joe Biden’s death toll predictions may end up being unfortunately too close to accurate. The COVID death toll is rising way faster than .4% mortality right now - and we only have three or four states with exhausted hospitals. At the present trend lines, post Thanksgiving will become ugly and Christmas may be grim.
My guess is redder states in the north will start to lift February-March. My guess is the Southern states will be getting shellacked through the first of quarter of 2021. Summer of 2021 will get us back into the new normal. 10% unemployment is real, especially depending on what the federal relief/unemployment policy comes out as.... Pelosi’s game of chicken on no COVID relief played out terribly for her, but she has such a dysfunctional caucus that they cannot come together to offer a different approach. Biden will be handed the ball in January to try to make deal with the Senate.
Oh nooooooooooooo
Ok CNN.
They’ll continue as long as spineless Americans continue to put up with said BS.
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201118/46f707728913bb2e04a9409e1a82ca7f.jpg
There’s growing evidence that “The Great Reset” is their plan. The phrase “Build Back Better” is beginning to show up more places than Biden’s campaign. I believe COVID restrictions are the empires’ response to trump and brexit. They’re going to ruin everyone, bankrupt everything, and reorganize economies with authoritarian socialism.
PracticalRifleman
11-17-20, 20:30
Zero medical background, but I work up on the Canadian border with CBP. We’ve been estimating the border reopening in the April 2021 timeframe... with the vaccine effectiveness being the major factor.
Personally, I feel it all is too reactive of responses. We didn’t have mandatory mask wearing with travelers until May 2020 timeframe... which I feel was way too late to worry about exposure.
All of CBP in ME have recently made it mandatory to wear a mask at all times at work (it sucks), which was timed with the Governor making it a requirement in all businesses/public areas. Again, I feel it was too little, too late... and most of us are annoyed with it since it clearly isn’t in response to officer safety...
Whether or not masks are the way, the entire response puts too much emphasis on it. People put on a mask, and they now think they are safe. Not washing hands, you are just as risk... if not more because you are now bringing your hands up to your face. At least without masks, we tended to keep our six feet distance when possible.
But working for a plumbing company prior to my current job, I can say even N-95 masks aren’t protecting as people make them out to. Concrete dust, cast iron dust, drywall dust... all of which ended up inside the mask and was blown out of my nose when I showered after work.
If dust makes it way into your mask, if means it hasn’t been fit properly. Typically, in medical and bio communities as well as many industrial settings, wearers are fit-tested frequently.
I think the public at large isn’t aware of this and merely think a mask is a magic bullet.
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PracticalRifleman
11-17-20, 20:31
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201118/46f707728913bb2e04a9409e1a82ca7f.jpg
There’s growing evidence that “The Great Reset” is their plan. The phrase “Build Back Better” is beginning to show up more places than Biden’s campaign. I believe COVID restrictions are the empires’ response to trump and brexit. They’re going to ruin everyone, bankrupt everything, and reorganize economies with authoritarian socialism.
Agenda 30.
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Until all Americans learn to do what they are told !
Realistically we have six more months of pretty massive deaths and illness, even with vaccine distribution.
Vaccine may save the second half of 2021 - maybe a decent fall of school, Halloween and Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, Joe Biden’s death toll predictions may end up being unfortunately too close to accurate. The COVID death toll is rising way faster than .4% mortality right now - and we only have three or four states with exhausted hospitals. At the present trend lines, post Thanksgiving will become ugly and Christmas may be grim.
What? Less than .1% of Americans have died from COVID. That is not "pretty massive" deaths. The mortality rate for COVID patients continues to fall.
Think about it. If you knew 1000 people and 1 died, would you think it's the end of the world? That's the death rate we are talking about. Do we destroy our and our children's future for that?
The Flu epidemic in 1918-1920 killed more people than have contracted COVID when the world's population was 1.8 billion vs 7.8 billion today. It killed 675000 people in the US in approximately 9 months. The US population was less than 1/3 of today's. A little rough math will tell you that the flu was 600% as devastating as COVID.
The flu epidemic did not transform the nation, there is no reason COVID should.
Andy
Diamondback
11-17-20, 20:54
As other have noted, the restaurant industry is decimated especially in places that have kept COVID restrictions in place longer than others like New York and California. Some places will never reopen. Larger chains are taking a hit.
Pizza Hut here is Delivery & Carryout Only until Phase 4, just for one typical example. Haven't heard any updates, but back in May a local restaurateur expected half his 13 properties to never reopen at all, including ones that had lost lease.
Airline travel will never be the same. The tourism industry as a whole can be taken out and buried after this year and it will take years to recover if some places ever can recover.
On the upside, this may bring back the family road-trip which will offer opportunities of its own; may encourage cheaper and less crowd-heavy leisure activities like hiking and camping.
Brick and mortar stores without an online option will fail even more. Big online retailers like Walmart and Amazon will thrive (drawing criticism from the left of course)
While their record sales ironically help pump more money than ever into the Left/Chicom Axis of Evil machine...
It's safe to predict that soon we'll see a neck-snapping turn from record LOW unemployment to record HIGH. If you have relatives who lived in the Great Depression, start brain-draining them about how they made it through NOW, because Depression 2.0 is coming...
Grand58742
11-17-20, 21:05
I think the public at large isn’t aware of this and merely think a mask is a magic bullet.
It isn't just the public that thinks this.
What I always chuckle at are the gators people wear. I mean, that really isn't going to stop much...
What? Less than .1% of Americans have died from COVID. That is not "pretty massive" deaths. The mortality rate for COVID patients continues to fall.
Think about it. If you knew 1000 people and 1 died, would you think it's the end of the world? That's the death rate we are talking about. Do we destroy our and our children's future for that?
The Flu epidemic in 1918-1920 killed more people than have contracted COVID when the world's population was 1.8 billion vs 7.8 billion today. It killed 675000 people in the US in approximately 9 months. The US population was less than 1/3 of today's. A little rough math will tell you that the flu was 600% as devastating as COVID.
The flu epidemic did not transform the nation, there is no reason COVID should.
Andy
All of this.
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201118/46f707728913bb2e04a9409e1a82ca7f.jpg
There’s growing evidence that “The Great Reset” is their plan. The phrase “Build Back Better” is beginning to show up more places than Biden’s campaign. I believe COVID restrictions are the empires’ response to trump and brexit. They’re going to ruin everyone, bankrupt everything, and reorganize economies with authoritarian socialism.
Here is the full WEF '2030 predictions' video to go along with that. For general edification of any doubters.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/TFLofHO8nlIe/
Grand58742
11-17-20, 21:15
What? Less than .1% of Americans have died from COVID. That is not "pretty massive" deaths. The mortality rate for COVID patients continues to fall.
Think about it. If you knew 1000 people and 1 died, would you think it's the end of the world? That's the death rate we are talking about. Do we destroy our and our children's future for that?
The Flu epidemic in 1918-1920 killed more people than have contracted COVID when the world's population was 1.8 billion vs 7.8 billion today. It killed 675000 people in the US in approximately 9 months. The US population was less than 1/3 of today's. A little rough math will tell you that the flu was 600% as devastating as COVID.
The flu epidemic did not transform the nation, there is no reason COVID should.
Andy
The difference is MyFacePlace and InstaTweeter weren't around in 1918 nor was CNN and Fox blasting it in your face 24 hours a day. People got their news once a day if they were lucky by reading the newspaper. Probably once a week is more likely. Even radio wasn't big at that time, so news took far longer to spread.
I also think people were a little less scared back then during the times when an infection could kill you just as easily as being shot in the head. People died all the time, sad to say, and I think they were less scared of the concept of death and less likely to freak out about it if it did happen.
There’s growing evidence that “The Great Reset” is their plan. The phrase “Build Back Better” is beginning to show up more places than Biden’s campaign. I believe COVID restrictions are the empires’ response to trump and brexit. They’re going to ruin everyone, bankrupt everything, and reorganize economies with authoritarian socialism.
Spot on. It'll continue until the Global Reset has been achieved. They've finally figured out the pretext they can use to con the public into passively accepting massive illegal restrictions on their freedom: a "public health crisis." Everything but the large (and leftist compliant) corporations will be ruined. Then we're all eating out of their hands with .gov relief checks, picture "universal basic income" and their s$#tty government cheese health care plans forced on everyone, and earth becomes the hellhole for everyone but the few elites. The TV series "The Expanse", gives an idea of what that looks like.
ChattanoogaPhil
11-17-20, 21:56
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FromMyColdDeadHand
11-17-20, 22:14
The cold war ends and everything is going to change. Not.
911 happened and everything is going to change,. Not.
Great financial crisis happens and everything is going to change. Not.
And now this. Not.
Things do change. But it’s usually not the black swan events that caused the change. Their long running technological changes that I’ve made the most impact. We lost our privacy after 911 not because of 911 but because there is the capacity and capability of broad surveillance.
We get on with getting on. Vaccines and immunity will get this to levels that we will accept. We lose 15,000 To 100,000 per year to the flu- even if doubled, does it really make that much of a difference? Did you notice the difference between the low and high years in the past?
The real shit hits The fan when evictions start back up.
Some just got renewed here in WA. What I can't believe are the people who are telling the governor that he's not doing enough. That we need to be completely locked down and given money.
This is WA after all...but still shocking.
Diamondback
11-17-20, 22:33
Some just got renewed here in WA. What I can't believe are the people who are telling the governor that he's not doing enough. That we need to be completely locked down and given money.
This is WA after all...but still shocking.
Expect it to go on forever now that Diaperface is Gov-4-Life unless called up to a Cabinet post.
SomeOtherGuy
11-17-20, 22:56
It isn't just the public that thinks this.
What I always chuckle at are the gators people wear. I mean, that really isn't going to stop much...
No, they won't. Think "compliance mask." And "hostile compliance."
If anyone actually cared about spread they would be handing out N95 masks EVERYWHERE like they do with needles for druggies, condoms, etc...
The restrictions will last and be used to control people as long as people continue to do as they are told.
It’s a fvcking joke. Masks stopping the rona- ha!
If masks worked rona infection rate would be way down, as almost everyone is wearing them. It’s ridiculous.
This is one of the biggest scams perpetuated on the world. Not The rona itself, but the response.
OBEY! You’ll be safe! Give us your liberty and you’ll be fine. Follow orders. It’s for the greater good.
It’s fvcked!
We should drop all this bullshit restriction crap and drive on. Seriously.
We are doing multi generational damage on so many levels, I’ve posted it in several threads here and just don’t care to do it anymore.
Vaccine- ha! By the time we can roll out a viable vaccine the damage will be done and a new level of complacency is the norm.
Wake the fvck up and stop being sheep.
People die, life is dangerous, there is no safety- stop allowing the destruction of your lives and your nation because of a blip of deaths. Grand scheme, the Rona ain’t shit.
It’s disheartening to see The acceptance of this shit.
I’m disgusted.
Live your life!
With most service industry stuff it is no longer "in person" and that means more outsourcing and fewer employees working longer hours.
Anything food service has been pretty devastated. Anything fast food limited to drive through only means 2/3s of the employees have been let go. Anyone who waited tables probably hasn't worked in the last 6 months.
And everything else, limited hours are the norm. Did your walmart used to be 24 hour? Now they probably close at 10pm or sooner. Anything that used to be open until 9 or 10pm now closes at 6pm.
Suffice to say everyone who ran out and bought a big screen tv with their "covid" check is now probably regretting it unless they are one of those rare "essential workers" in one of the few industries not directly effected.
More people probably lost their jobs in 2020 and we may very likely hit an unemployment rate of 9.9 or higher as we saw in 2009 following the housing market crash. And I don't think another stimulus check is going to be anything more than a band aid on a gushing wound. Maybe that's why the Republicans didn't seem to try very hard to win the election.
Also concerned this could be a "new normal" for the next year or even two. And we thought 9-11 changed things in a big way.
Likely until the early part of 2021. At that point in time:
People will be sick of it even more.
Pfizer's vaccine should be prime time, and supposedly it boasts a 90%+ efficacy
All presidential grandstanding should be over
A few key points:
Masks do work...but masks are meant for high-exposure areas, or to prevent sick people from spreading a disease. They are not meant to be worn all over town by you, a healthy person. The argument is that you could asymptomatically spread it, so the mask is good. Technically this is correct, but the human component to this means an extremely high failure rate of the mask, so we need to weigh that with the angst the mask can/will cause. Voluntary mask wearing with information about actual efficacy and best practices made readily available would be my choice.
Hospitals are not physically full in many cases, but rather, the safe patient vs. staff ratios of ICU capable facilities are fast approaching, or have hit their maximum capacity, as well as equipment utilization.
The political grand-standing of this is nearly unprecedented and has done a LOT of harm. People are making health decisions based on their voting choices, quite literally, and it's absurd. I don't care who you voted for, neither Trump, nor Biden, nor any of the others know a 7.5 ET tube from their dick. You should ignore them both on this subject matter.
Many other thoughts, but mainly, I am glad I live in the middle of nowhere, and I have a much lower tolerance for people than I did a year ago. Especially those who contribute so little to our society, but suck up that extra unemployment from their now defunct, worthless, make-work jobs like it's owed them.
/Rant
Wu-Tang Clap is this generation's 9-11, "the day America died." Just like the Reagan Revolution, the JFK assassination, WWII, there seems to be something big every 20-25 years like clockwork.
To put your statement in perspective, to date, over the past year 1700 healthcare workers in America are dead because of COVID. During the war in Afghanistan, from 2001-2018, 2,372 service members died as a result of all causes, 1856 from direct hostile force actions, and 1720 civilian contractors lost their lives.
We are almost half-way to the death toll of nearly two decades of war in Afghanistan, inside one year.
BEFORE COVID19, both nurse suicide and PTSD rates were shown to be higher than our military vets.
Business_Casual
11-18-20, 06:09
We should drop all this bullshit restriction crap and drive on. Seriously.
We are doing multi generational damage on so many levels, I’ve posted it in several threads here and just don’t care to do it anymore!
But Democrats want power, that is more important.
It isn't just the public that thinks this.
What I always chuckle at are the gators people wear. I mean, that really isn't going to stop much...
What if you’re only wearing it to be courteous to the more fearful around you?
I’m not chin strapping or ear hanging a cloth mask all day, so the gator it is. I don’t think either option is really stopping anything TBH.
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Grand58742
11-18-20, 06:31
What if you’re only wearing it to be courteous to the more fearful around you?
I’m not chin strapping or ear hanging a cloth mask all day, so the gator it is. I don’t think either option is really stopping anything TBH.
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That's a fair answer. But there are people out there that think it's a protective barrier.
That's a fair answer. But there are people out there that think it's a protective barrier.
There are also people out there who own a firearm because "what if" and refuse to buy health insurance. Humor em.
That's a fair answer. But there are people out there that think it's a protective barrier.
I think you are right. Much easier to just do what the TV and Facebook tell you than it is to think for yourself. It is also an easy way to virtue signal and feel smug while you look down on anyone who does not have one on.
Some just got renewed here in WA. What I can't believe are the people who are telling the governor that he's not doing enough. That we need to be completely locked down and given money.
This is WA after all...but still shocking.With those people I agree however, complete lockdown means complete lockdown. No shopping, no takeout, no driving around, have a medical problem? Tough it out! Don't call the police, find a nice spot in the house for you dog to do it's business. If you unlock your door for any reason it's no longer a complete lockdown.
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I saw a vid recently where a guy tried to blow out a candle with various types of masks on.
All the homemade fabric ones were useless, he pushes enough air through them to blow out the candle. Medical surgical masks and N95s actually dissipated the airflow to the point he couldn’t blow it out.
So all masks are not created equal. I’ve been wearing legit surgical masks for a couple months now. Again, mistake on govs part to tell everyone that bandanas and homemade bullshit was safe to wear in public. Maybe at the time when no one had any masks in stock, but that’s not the case now.
Mask up, avoid crowds, sanitize, be smart, shelter the most vulnerable, keep the economy running. This is not hard. Anyone proposing anything other than those things has nefarious intentions in my book.
At least the folks wearing the gaiters normally keep their noses covered, unlike so many mask wearers.
The CDC realized gaiters were a big F U to mask requirements and now recommend double layer masks, which means my company mandates double layer masks. Wait until the CDC figures out plague beards.
Andy
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-18-20, 08:02
No, they won't. Think "compliance mask." And "hostile compliance."
If anyone actually cared about spread they would be handing out N95 masks EVERYWHERE like they do with needles for druggies, condoms, etc...
Yep, we need a billion masks a week, minimum, capacity for if we ever get hit with the real one. What we are doing is mask theater. About the only thing it is good for is maybe getting the wife to check out the adult toy store with out anyone being able to recognize her.
To put your statement in perspective, to date, over the past year 1700 healthcare workers in America are dead because of COVID. During the war in Afghanistan, from 2001-2018, 2,372 service members died as a result of all causes, 1856 from direct hostile force actions, and 1720 civilian contractors lost their lives.
We are almost half-way to the death toll of nearly two decades of war in Afghanistan, inside one year.
BEFORE COVID19, both nurse suicide and PTSD rates were shown to be higher than our military vets.
And we lost between 15-90,000 people a year due to flu according to the CDC and we did really nothing- near useless shots. Something like a Vietnam every year. No one burned their Health Insurance cards, bombed the CDC, or ran to Canada. You know how many times I added into the United Airlines post-flight survey that they needed to put hand sanitizer on the jet bridges? I've done it for 10 years and nothing.
Want to know were most of the cases of COVID were coming from in the local hospital? They figured out it was the doctors lounge...
Yes, this is bad. But it ain't "The One". That is the scary thing. IF this had ended up being the 5% across the board killer with its R factor, you are talking a real problem. Not getting people to wear masks and limit travel? You wouldn't be able to get people out of their houses or open the mail.
The_War_Wagon
11-18-20, 08:07
They're not.
I find ignoring demtards to be salutary for my health - physical & mental.
Besides, if you pay attention to them, they'll only come up with nuttier and dumber laws. :rolleyes:
To put your statement in perspective, to date, over the past year 1700 healthcare workers in America are dead because of COVID. During the war in Afghanistan, from 2001-2018, 2,372 service members died as a result of all causes, 1856 from direct hostile force actions, and 1720 civilian contractors lost their lives.
We are almost half-way to the death toll of nearly two decades of war in Afghanistan, inside one year.
BEFORE COVID19, both nurse suicide and PTSD rates were shown to be higher than our military vets.
3 million people have died in this country since January.
Moreover for people who work in the healthcare industry healthy RNs, same as the rest of the population seem to be the exception to the norm.
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I saw a vid recently where a guy tried to blow out a candle with various types of masks on.
All the homemade fabric ones were useless, he pushes enough air through them to blow out the candle. Medical surgical masks and N95s actually dissipated the airflow to the point he couldn’t blow it out.
So all masks are not created equal. I’ve been wearing legit surgical masks for a couple months now. Again, mistake on govs part to tell everyone that bandanas and homemade bullshit was safe to wear in public. Maybe at the time when no one had any masks in stock, but that’s not the case now.
Mask up, avoid crowds, sanitize, be smart, shelter the most vulnerable, keep the economy running. This is not hard. Anyone proposing anything other than those things has nefarious intentions in my book.
Remember when the government, CDC, fauci, et al said masks don’t work before they did? Funny how that works.
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 08:34
Yep, we need a billion masks a week, minimum, capacity for if we ever get hit with the real one. What we are doing is mask theater. About the only thing it is good for is maybe getting the wife to check out the adult toy store with out anyone being able to recognize her.
And we lost between 15-90,000 people a year due to flu according to the CDC and we did really nothing- near useless shots. Something like a Vietnam every year. No one burned their Health Insurance cards, bombed the CDC, or ran to Canada. You know how many times I added into the United Airlines post-flight survey that they needed to put hand sanitizer on the jet bridges? I've done it for 10 years and nothing.
Want to know were most of the cases of COVID were coming from in the local hospital? They figured out it was the doctors lounge...
Yes, this is bad. But it ain't "The One". That is the scary thing. IF this had ended up being the 5% across the board killer with its R factor, you are talking a real problem. Not getting people to wear masks and limit travel? You wouldn't be able to get people out of their houses or open the mail.
To be fair, it’s rare influenza overwhelms the hospital systems.
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 08:48
Likely until the early part of 2021. At that point in time:
People will be sick of it even more.
Pfizer's vaccine should be prime time, and supposedly it boasts a 90%+ efficacy
All presidential grandstanding should be over
A few key points:
Masks do work...but masks are meant for high-exposure areas, or to prevent sick people from spreading a disease. They are not meant to be worn all over town by you, a healthy person. The argument is that you could asymptomatically spread it, so the mask is good. Technically this is correct, but the human component to this means an extremely high failure rate of the mask, so we need to weigh that with the angst the mask can/will cause. Voluntary mask wearing with information about actual efficacy and best practices made readily available would be my choice.
Hospitals are not physically full in many cases, but rather, the safe patient vs. staff ratios of ICU capable facilities are fast approaching, or have hit their maximum capacity, as well as equipment utilization.
The political grand-standing of this is nearly unprecedented and has done a LOT of harm. People are making health decisions based on their voting choices, quite literally, and it's absurd. I don't care who you voted for, neither Trump, nor Biden, nor any of the others know a 7.5 ET tube from their dick. You should ignore them both on this subject matter.
Many other thoughts, but mainly, I am glad I live in the middle of nowhere, and I have a much lower tolerance for people than I did a year ago. Especially those who contribute so little to our society, but suck up that extra unemployment from their now defunct, worthless, make-work jobs like it's owed them.
/Rant
You may say *some* masks work in *some* situations *if* used *properly*. That’s not what we are seeing, however.
But on to another point: fear-mongering.
My parents own a home care company. They got a new client that had just been in the hospital for COVID for 20 days, was now asymptomatic and needed home medications set-up and an assessment completed. The previous company gave the client up because they didn’t want to “expose their staff to COVID”.
The client had no one and was reliant on my parents’ company to setup medications on discharge day. My parents’ head RN walked out rather than going to the client’s home. She said she couldn’t be exposed to that and she has a one year old grandson.
The other two RNs were out sick with it and an LPN cannot make first contact. They were up the creek because of the fear.
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I saw a vid recently where a guy tried to blow out a candle with various types of masks on.
All the homemade fabric ones were useless, he pushes enough air through them to blow out the candle. Medical surgical masks and N95s actually dissipated the airflow to the point he couldn’t blow it out.
So all masks are not created equal. I’ve been wearing legit surgical masks for a couple months now. Again, mistake on govs part to tell everyone that bandanas and homemade bullshit was safe to wear in public. Maybe at the time when no one had any masks in stock, but that’s not the case now.
Mask up, avoid crowds, sanitize, be smart, shelter the most vulnerable, keep the economy running. This is not hard. Anyone proposing anything other than those things has nefarious intentions in my book.
Obviously the masks people are wearing and the way they are wearing them is doing little to nothing. How else would you explain the infection surges?
So you’re wearing a properly fitted N95 or better mask and properly fitting it with a glycerin test each time you take it off?
Or wearing a new mask each and every time you take it off?
You’re UV disinfecting or sanitizing the mask you reuse several times a day?
Huge viral loads and massive droplet release Is the only thing masks are helping with at all- and obviously it isn’t stopping the Rona, or infection rates would be dropping.
Shelter the most vulnerable (if they so choose) and keep the economy going is a no brainer. Washing hands is a no brainer.
Wearing masks the way people are is doing nothing but giving them a false sense of security- I’d posit that the masks have actually been a net negative because of the false security people get from them.
Add in all the other negative consequences of mask wearing and it just doesn’t make sense in reality.
Sure, 1 billion N95 masks properly fitted and used every day would make a difference- but that’s not happening. Ever. Professionals trained to fit them and wear properly get it wrong half the time.
It’s a joke bro!
Live your life how you see fit and allow others to do the same. Anyone doing anything other than that has nefarious intentions.
Positive infection rates are meaningless as metric.
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Only time I have worn a mask so far is in the terminal/on the plane when I had to fly to Utah for work. Oh, and I wore a mask around my FIL when we visited NJ because he is very health compromised. That's pretty much it.
Im with The_War_Wagon, ignoring these idiotic government demands as much as possible appears to be beneficial to my mental health.
Updates since this May 2020 case include rioting, looting, and other favored political mass gatherings are "safe" activities.
https://www.thevillagersvoice.com/judge-mchaney-says-it-beautifully-in-friday-afternoon-case/
While the lowly citizens are being told to stay home and wear a mask, their livelihoods destroyed and businesses boarded up the members of the Politiburo are living it up at their dachas. Yes, keep voting ComDem and keep exporting your mental illness to the rest of the country.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-photos-appear-to-show-california-gov-newsom-inside-restaurant-for-party-amid-coronavirus-spikes
turnburglar
11-18-20, 11:28
If we could all just social distance for 2 weeks....
Just 2 weeks....
How long again is 14 days?
Fauci has said even after the vaccine is out we will have mandatory masks and social distancing ?
ditto the great reset idiocy and this is part of the compliance plan I feel AND this is going to destroy so many people they will be forced into what they want financially and emotionally
Britian has banned sales of fossil fuel cars so no more gas or diesel starting 2030 !!!! google this one :) with all the jihadis not sure they will make it to 2030 anyway :)
Diamondback
11-18-20, 11:52
Fauci has said even after the vaccine is out we will have mandatory masks and social distancing ?
ditto the great reset idiocy and this is part of the compliance plan I feel AND this is going to destroy so many people they will be forced into what they want financially and emotionally
Britian has banned sales of fossil fuel cars so no more gas or diesel starting 2030 !!!! google this one :) with all the jihadis not sure they will make it to 2030 anyway :)
This is what happens when you allow your party to be led by a cuck who's being led by the nose by someone inherently hostile to said party's values like Princess Nut Nut... Farage can't kick Bozo Boris's ass soon enough. I mean, can't as in, even if he does the Titanic may already be too late to turn away from the iceberg...
Grand58742
11-18-20, 12:17
I do and don't blame Fauci for a lot of this.
On one hand, the CDC, NIH, USAMRIID etc, etc, are paid to overreact and worse case scenario everything. They give the worst possible numbers, give the most stringent conditions to apply and go from there. So, not necessarily his fault as he's doing what I expect any of them to do.
I do blame him for putting that out on a national level each and every time he's in front of a camera since the MSM loves him.
There is no going back. I wonder how effective this vaccine will be. But I picture the country is changed forever. Just wait for the next pandemic.
Diamondback
11-18-20, 13:12
Yup, just one more turn of the screws and ratchet of the machinery to re-extinguishing the light of freedom for another thousand years.
If we could all just social distance for 2 weeks....
Just 2 weeks....
How long again is 14 days?
Sure thing dude [emoji849]
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I do and don't blame Fauci for a lot of this.
On one hand, the CDC, NIH, USAMRIID etc, etc, are paid to overreact and worse case scenario everything. They give the worst possible numbers, give the most stringent conditions to apply and go from there. So, not necessarily his fault as he's doing what I expect any of them to do.
I do blame him for putting that out on a national level each and every time he's in front of a camera since the MSM loves him.
Last I looked the guy makes 400k a year and his checks cash every two weeks like clock work. If that guy isn’t the epitome of government waste I don’t know what is. I’m surprised he hasn’t put out a book yet.
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john armond
11-18-20, 13:32
Fauci has said even after the vaccine is out we will have mandatory masks and social distancing ?
ditto the great reset idiocy and this is part of the compliance plan I feel AND this is going to destroy so many people they will be forced into what they want financially and emotionally
Britian has banned sales of fossil fuel cars so no more gas or diesel starting 2030 !!!! google this one :) with all the jihadis not sure they will make it to 2030 anyway :)
California has banned fossil fuel personal vehicles by 2035 and commercial vehicles by 2045. I think France is doing something in Paris too.
California has banned fossil fuel personal vehicles by 2035 and commercial vehicles by 2045. I think France is doing something in Paris too.
yikes !
did not think the cali thing was a done deal though ? and not sure how that is ever going to work with delivery etc... :) but will do some google search
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-18-20, 14:55
NO offense, but most of these changes I kind of like. Face masks make facial recognition useless as a surveillance tool, if I was at all interested in pro-sports, 1/8 filled stadiums are my dream. I order food and it appears at my door like a fairy dropped it off- no moron to deal with. ANd finally take out places have figured out how to put the right food in the right bag, except for Panera those F'ing idiots are never close to the order- and why franly do I never get free items, always missing. Places that couldn't get it right don't get ordered from anymore. Plus ordering apps now actually work.
I was in the process of not trusting local stores to have things in stock that were actually worth a crap, not I just order online real stuff, not what Home DEpot or Target got from the lowest cost supplier.
Frankly, six feet is too close for my tastes- 12 feet to 1/4 mile would be fine. Restaurants where you can actually walk between tables, not bump into people's chairs at the next table or have to hand out dinners because the waiter can't get around? Win, win, win.
After 'Me too" I'm glad that we don't hug anymore, let alone finger bang our bugger pullers.
As having worked remotely for the past 15 years, my company finally has invested in remote access resources.
No more door-to-door sales people.
Of course there are the deaths and the economic collapse...
turnburglar
11-18-20, 15:10
@colddeadhands I LOVE your perspective on it all. Facial recognition software was about to come to our shores (from China of course) and now we have an actual way of fighting it. I have also heard that the software is more effective on non homogenous groups of people..... you know..... where not everyone looks the same...
Sure thing dude [emoji849]
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Did you miss my sarcasm, or did I miss yours?
The '2 week' joke is really funny when you account for the fact we have been doing it since march. we are now approaching December.
Positive infection rates are meaningless as metric.
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I'm opposed to total lockdowns, but the reality is there are serious metrics states will have to deal with. The U.S. today just had the highest daily Covid death toll in 6 months. Cases AND daily deaths are spiking across the country, as are hospitalization rates. States that earlier didn't bother to implement ANY Covid measures (like South Dakota) are now the hardest hit per capita. This suggests that while total lockdowns are B.S., so is doing nothing at all.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
turnburglar
11-18-20, 15:20
I'm opposed to total lockdowns, but the reality is there are serious metrics states will have to deal with. The U.S. today just had the highest daily Covid death toll in 6 months. Cases AND daily deaths are spiking across the country, as are hospitalization rates. States that earlier didn't bother to implement ANY Covid measures (like South Dakota) are now the hardest hit per capita. This suggests that while total lockdowns are B.S., so is doing nothing at all.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
Im not a disease specialist or even a MD type at all.
What I will say is that: "the data isn't matching the observations".
Why are we past 6 months into this 'pandemic' hitting our shores, and there isn't whole neighborhoods that have gone quiet?
People still want to put their kids into school, and go back to work.
Every person I actually know that has tested positive said it was far less than the flu on any other year.
Anyone I actually know that knows someone that has died of covid wasn't able to articulate past 'already frail constitution'. I have personally lost more family members to cancer (2) than covid (0) during this last year.
I'm just saying it feels like covid is just the regular flu that the media is playing chicken little over. If it really where serious we wouldn't even be discussing its validity at this point. We would all KNOW it was here and would be doing wild things to protect ourselves. If I was actually concerned I wouldn't even be living in a metro area. I'd be at my cabin in the woods, shooting all visitors on sight.
I'm opposed to total lockdowns, but the reality is there are serious metrics states will have to deal with. The U.S. today just had the highest daily Covid death toll in 6 months. Cases AND daily deaths are spiking across the country, as are hospitalization rates. States that earlier didn't bother to implement ANY Covid measures (like South Dakota) are now the hardest hit per capita. This suggests that while total lockdowns are B.S., so is doing nothing at all.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
total deaths almost up to what doctors kill for medical malpractice per year !
is it real yeah of course
are the numbers greatly inflated YEAH big time looking at flu numbers I guess this covid cured the flu cause the deaths of flu by cdc went to pretty much nothing and they are all being counted as covid now ! as we know many others are still being counted like car accident death OH CVID ! heart attack OH COVID and many are just flat out being counted without even testing some say %20 or more for this not even tested alone and the test numbers are bogus also as they are throwing away many etc...
obesity is killing more
smoking is killing more
doctors malpractice are killing more
I say this to put into perspective actual numbers will never be known just like china but instead of low our officials are faking on the high end ! China can control with fear and so does our its just the way they do it that is dif end outcome is the same ! keep people in check make them obey
With most service industry stuff it is no longer "in person" and that means more outsourcing and fewer employees working longer hours.
Anything food service has been pretty devastated. Anything fast food limited to drive through only means 2/3s of the employees have been let go. Anyone who waited tables probably hasn't worked in the last 6 months.
And everything else, limited hours are the norm. Did your walmart used to be 24 hour? Now they probably close at 10pm or sooner. Anything that used to be open until 9 or 10pm now closes at 6pm.
Suffice to say everyone who ran out and bought a big screen tv with their "covid" check is now probably regretting it unless they are one of those rare "essential workers" in one of the few industries not directly effected.
More people probably lost their jobs in 2020 and we may very likely hit an unemployment rate of 9.9 or higher as we saw in 2009 following the housing market crash. And I don't think another stimulus check is going to be anything more than a band aid on a gushing wound. Maybe that's why the Republicans didn't seem to try very hard to win the election.
Also concerned this could be a "new normal" for the next year or even two. And we thought 9-11 changed things in a big way.
It is the new normal until a high enough % of the population exposed to experience some level of heard immunity, and or, a viable vaccine exists that a enough % of the population has access to, that they're not having to worry about/focus on, med services being overwhelmed and unable to treat people. That's it in a nut shell, and I have little doubt that's a year, maybe two, dependent in some variables and Qs yet not fully answered, such as how long immunity lasts once exposed and so forth still being elucidated. Oh, an F China.
bottom line until the gov gets full compliance from us !
It is the new normal until a high enough % of the population exposed to experience some level of heard immunity, and or, a viable vaccine exists that a enough % of the population has access to, that they're not having to worry about/focus on, med services being overwhelmed and unable to treat people. That's it in a nut shell, and I have little doubt that's a year, maybe two, dependent in some variables and Qs yet not fully answered, such as how long immunity lasts once exposed and so forth still being elucidated. Oh, an F China.
Fauci has said NO even after vaccine
]Dr. Anthony Fauci said [/B]
“I would recommend to people to not to abandon all public health measures just because you’ve been vaccinated,” Fauci told CNN anchor Jake Tapper on “State of the Union.”
“Because even though for the general population it might be 90 to 95 percent effective, you don’t necessarily know for you how effective it is.”
Fauci has said NO even after vaccine
]Dr. Anthony Fauci said [/B]
“I would recommend to people to not to abandon all public health measures just because you’ve been vaccinated,” Fauci told CNN anchor Jake Tapper on “State of the Union.”
“Because even though for the general population it might be 90 to 95 percent effective, you don’t necessarily know for you how effective it is.”
You don't know how effective a vaccine is in the wild vs clinical trails until you know, and that may take (wait for it...) a year or two. You don't ignore other public health measures because a clinical finds benefits per se, you wait to see what real impact it has in the real world, take steps accordingly as data comes out, and assess. Knowing he's talking to the public, who generally have the common sense and critical thinking skills of a blender, probably trying to prevent people from simply dropping all public health measures due to some (seemingly) good news on vaccines.
Got a flu shot today (which interestingly enough appears to lower risk of covid, so win win), and that does not mean I will stop washing my hands more, taking high dose C, etc during this flu season.
He didn't help his credibility about lying about the value of masks trying to assure enough n95s existed for med pros (thanx Obama!), and such, but he's not just pulling this stuff from his a$$ either.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-18-20, 16:11
Fauci has said NO even after vaccine
]Dr. Anthony Fauci said [/B]
“I would recommend to people to not to abandon all public health measures just because you’ve been vaccinated,” Fauci told CNN anchor Jake Tapper on “State of the Union.”
“Because even though for the general population it might be 90 to 95 percent effective, you don’t necessarily know for you how effective it is.”
There are days that I wish Fauci‘s dad had doubled up on the condoms and pulled out.... just to make sure.
Grand58742
11-18-20, 16:11
Knowing he's talking to the public, who generally have the common sense and critical thinking skills of a blender, probably trying to prevent people from simply dropping all public health measures due to some (seemingly) good news on vaccines.
You're my boy, Will, but I tend to think politicians apply to that statement far, far, far, far more than the general public.
I'm opposed to total lockdowns, but the reality is there are serious metrics states will have to deal with. The U.S. today just had the highest daily Covid death toll in 6 months. Cases AND daily deaths are spiking across the country, as are hospitalization rates. States that earlier didn't bother to implement ANY Covid measures (like South Dakota) are now the hardest hit per capita. This suggests that while total lockdowns are B.S., so is doing nothing at all.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
You mean a nation filled with unhealthy people are taking the brunt of Mother Nature? Say it ain’t so.
If it only saves one life WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 16:25
total deaths almost up to what doctors kill for medical malpractice per year !
is it real yeah of course
are the numbers greatly inflated YEAH big time looking at flu numbers I guess this covid cured the flu cause the deaths of flu by cdc went to pretty much nothing and they are all being counted as covid now ! as we know many others are still being counted like car accident death OH CVID ! heart attack OH COVID and many are just flat out being counted without even testing some say %20 or more for this not even tested alone and the test numbers are bogus also as they are throwing away many etc...
obesity is killing more
smoking is killing more
doctors malpractice are killing more
I say this to put into perspective actual numbers will never be known just like china but instead of low our officials are faking on the high end ! China can control with fear and so does our its just the way they do it that is dif end outcome is the same ! keep people in check make them obey
People keep repeating that flu is gone but COVID hit after flu season. We are just at the beginning of flu season now, and the COVID-19 restrictions also prevent spread of influenza. This is why those that don’t know should listen more.
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People keep repeating that flu is gone but COVID hit after flu season. We are just at the beginning of flu season now, and the COVID-19 restrictions also prevent spread of influenza. This is why those that don’t know should listen more.
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And yet nobody cared to impose said restrictions during flu season ever prior to this... crazy. Think of the lives that could have been saved.
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People keep repeating that flu is gone but COVID hit after flu season. We are just at the beginning of flu season now, and the COVID-19 restrictions also prevent spread of influenza. This is why those that don’t know should listen more.
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when you compare the numbers in the CDC site from last say 5 years and this past year since Jan you can see the numbers have been doctored ? altered ? lied ? whatever you want to call it
people keep saying it was never around in flu season but its been around almost a year so what is it :) hahahahahah again flu is not like a one month killer ! do the research dig into the CDC database and you will see
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 16:42
And yet nobody cared to impose said restrictions during flu season ever prior to this... crazy. Think of the lives that could have been saved.
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Well, there were many restrictions in 1918, believe it or not, the first year of the influenza pandemic. Not that I agree with what is being done now....
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 16:44
when you compare the numbers in the CDC site from last say 5 years and this past year since Jan you can see the numbers have been doctored ? altered ? lied ? whatever you want to call it
people keep saying it was never around in flu season but its been around almost a year so what is it :) hahahahahah again flu is not like a one month killer ! do the research dig into the CDC database and you will see
You do understand the cases of COVID prior to March were not confirmed but EVERY patient with a respiratory illness gets tested for influenzas as part of a broad respiratory panel, right? Even in off-seasons.
I swear to God, the tinfoil is so strong on both sides, no wonder the public is confused.
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It is the new normal until a high enough % of the population exposed to experience some level of heard immunity, and or, a viable vaccine exists that a enough % of the population has access to, that they're not having to worry about/focus on, med services being overwhelmed and unable to treat people. That's it in a nut shell, and I have little doubt that's a year, maybe two, dependent in some variables and Qs yet not fully answered, such as how long immunity lasts once exposed and so forth still being elucidated. Oh, an F China.
You know, when this shit was initially getting big here (back in March) I recall hearing some talking head mention this could be an 18-month to 2-year ordeal. At the time I was like "No freaking way". Now I wonder if that wasn't accurate.
You do understand the cases of COVID prior to March were not confirmed but EVERY patient with a respiratory illness gets tested for influenzas as part of a broad respiratory panel, right? Even in off-seasons.
I swear to God, the tinfoil is so strong on both sides, no wonder the public is confused.
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have you looked inside the actual numbers in the CDC database ?
I am going to say you have not went on to their site and dug into the numbers
You do understand the cases of COVID prior to March were not confirmed but EVERY patient with a respiratory illness gets tested for influenzas as part of a broad respiratory panel, right? Even in off-seasons.
I swear to God, the tinfoil is so strong on both sides, no wonder the public is confused.
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The mantra is very much like the anti 2nd Amendment narrative and is essentially being pushed by the same people.
Should we buy in to their other crusades as well?
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 17:06
have you looked inside the actual numbers in the CDC database ?
I am going to say you have not went on to their site and dug into the numbers
You do realize that influenza isn’t a reportable disease, right? The estimated burden for 19-20 is 65 million illnesses and 62,000 deaths, which is average.
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Im not a disease specialist or even a MD type at all.
What I will say is that: "the data isn't matching the observations".
Why are we past 6 months into this 'pandemic' hitting our shores, and there isn't whole neighborhoods that have gone quiet?
People still want to put their kids into school, and go back to work.
Every person I actually know that has tested positive said it was far less than the flu on any other year.
Anyone I actually know that knows someone that has died of covid wasn't able to articulate past 'already frail constitution'. I have personally lost more family members to cancer (2) than covid (0) during this last year.
I'm just saying it feels like covid is just the regular flu that the media is playing chicken little over. If it really where serious we wouldn't even be discussing its validity at this point. We would all KNOW it was here and would be doing wild things to protect ourselves. If I was actually concerned I wouldn't even be living in a metro area. I'd be at my cabin in the woods, shooting all visitors on sight.Everyone I know who's had it, about 30 people from children to late 70s. Everyone but 3 didn't have anything major including several in their 60s. The 3 in their 70s....two were in the hospital for 2 weeks and one was in for a day and half.
That being said, I know someone who's 26 year old healthy neighbor died in a few days from diagnosis. Physically fit, no health problems, double pneumonia and dead!
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 17:11
Everyone I know who's had it, about 30 people from children to late 70s. Everyone but 3 didn't have anything major including several in their 60s. The 3 in their 70s....two were in the hospital for 2 weeks and one was in for a day and half.
That being said, I know someone who's 26 year old healthy neighbor died in a few days from diagnosis. Physically fit, no health problems, double pneumonia and dead!
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There have been a few here that died rather young from it. Some of the complications associated with it such as VTE, PE, and bacterial pneumonia. I had a young, healthy relative get a PE which could have very well been fatal.
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There have been a few here that died rather young from it. Some of the complications associated with it such as VTE, PE, and bacterial pneumonia. I had a young, healthy relative get a PE which could have very well been fatal.
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Ok so? Statistical insignificance is just that.
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You do realize that influenza isn’t a reportable disease, right? The estimated burden for 19-20 is 65 million illnesses and 62,000 deaths, which is average.
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again the reporting numbers from cdc over a few years to show what is normal if this does not look funny to you ?
two weeks as example
week 13
2020 No. of positive specimens 75
2019 No. of positive specimens 5,324
2018 No. of positive specimens 3,357
2017 No. of positive specimens 4,086
2016 No. of positive specimens 3,383
2015 No. of positive specimens 1,138
week 14
2020 No. of positive specimens 180
2019 No. of positive specimens 3,957
2018 No. of positive specimens 2,490
2017 No. of positive specimens 3,044
2016 No. of positive specimens 2,544
2015 No. of positive specimens 1,076
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 17:33
again the reporting numbers from cdc over a few years to show what is normal if this does not look funny to you ?
two weeks as example
week 13
2020 No. of positive specimens 75
2019 No. of positive specimens 5,324
2018 No. of positive specimens 3,357
2017 No. of positive specimens 4,086
2016 No. of positive specimens 3,383
2015 No. of positive specimens 1,138
week 14
2020 No. of positive specimens 180
2019 No. of positive specimens 3,957
2018 No. of positive specimens 2,490
2017 No. of positive specimens 3,044
2016 No. of positive specimens 2,544
2015 No. of positive specimens 1,076
Again, influenza isn’t NOT a reportable disease to the CDC. But let us examine the dates which you’re referencing:
22 March through 4 April. During this time, the shut-down of “non-essential” personnel has already taken place as well as “social distancing” and in-person learning has stopped. Additionally, people were literally afraid to seek primary care due to the hype. Elective surgeries had ceased, which believe it or not, catches a large portion of late-season influenza cases among asymptomatic patients.
There were no movie theaters, no indoor dining, no bowling, no public gatherings of any kind.
Why are you so hung up on this? If anything, it shows effectiveness. You keep yelling from the rooftops but you’ve not provided any sort of explanation. Your insinuation is downright asinine.
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 17:38
Ok so? Statistical insignificance is just that.
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WTF?
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You mean a nation filled with unhealthy people are taking the brunt of Mother Nature? Say it ain’t so.
If it only saves one life WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING
"Mother Nature" as in Dr. Mama-san in some incompetent ChiCom laboratory. This shit ain't naturally occurring.
Again, influenza isn’t NOT a reportable disease to the CDC. But let us examine the dates which you’re referencing:
22 March through 4 April. During this time, the shut-down of “non-essential” personnel has already taken place as well as “social distancing” and in-person learning has stopped. Additionally, people were literally afraid to seek primary care due to the hype. Elective surgeries had ceased, which believe it or not, catches a large portion of late-season influenza cases among asymptomatic patients.
There were no movie theaters, no indoor dining, no bowling, no public gatherings of any kind.
Why are you so hung up on this? If anything, it shows effectiveness. You keep yelling from the rooftops but you’ve not provided any sort of explanation. Your insinuation is downright asinine.
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Not sure about the double negative, but if the data is incomplete (and effectively meaningless) as it pertains to Honu's concerns, why does the same incomplete data suddenly become meaningful in bolstering your position?
WTF?
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I said what I said. 350,000,000 people in this country and panicking over literal statistical flukes does nothing but stoke the flames of sensationalist fear.
Stopping the spread was never the goal remember? But here we are almost a year later and this crap is still getting dragged out and we now have the intellectually compromised among us shrieking the loudest every-time there’s a new “positive” case. Because at some point it shifted from FLATTENING THE CURVE to whatever the present apocalypse trajectory is.
It’s stupid.
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 17:57
Not sure about the double negative, but if the data is incomplete (and effectively meaningless) as it pertains to Honu's concerns, why does the same incomplete data suddenly become meaningful in bolstering your position?
I said that it isn’t a reportable disease...not that it wasn’t meaningful, however, as I said before it would confirm literally what was going on in the world. Meanwhile, he’s foolishly insinuating that influenza cases were reported as COVID which is complete and utter nonsense.
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 18:02
I said what I said. 350,000,000 people in this country and panicking over literal statistical flukes does nothing but stoke the flames of sensationalist fear.
Stopping the spread was never the goal remember? But here we are almost a year later and this crap is still getting dragged out and we now have the intellectually compromised among us shrieking the loudest every-time there’s a new “positive” case. Because at some point it shifted from FLATTENING THE CURVE to whatever the present apocalypse trajectory is.
It’s stupid.
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You really aren’t taking what I said in context, are you? Preaching to the choir, man.
But keep in mind, the person that dies from a PE two weeks after COVID recovery isn’t a COVID death. Or the 58 year-old that has a debilitating stroke secondary to hyper-coagulation associated with COVID....their story isn’t told in the statistics.
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I said that it isn’t a reportable disease...not that it wasn’t meaningful, however, as I said before it would confirm literally what was going on in the world. Meanwhile, he’s foolishly insinuating that influenza cases were reported as COVID which is complete and utter nonsense.
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Why is it foolish exactly? As I mentioned earlier, the bulk of the people pushing this have also been the people pushing anti 2nd Amendment narratives and other attacks. It is rather easy to find where they are lying on their other initiatives so why would it be foolish to assume their typical behavior is what we are seeing here?
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 18:06
Why is it foolish exactly? As I mentioned earlier, the bulk of the people pushing this have also been the people pushing anti 2nd Amendment narratives and other attacks. It is rather easy to find where they are lying on their other initiatives so why would it be foolish to assume their typical behavior is what we are seeing here?
Apples to oranges. The dudes has a whole theory up in his head that is based in nonsense. When you hear the hooves, don’t think “zebra”, think “horse”.
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Apples to oranges. The dudes has a whole theory up in his head that is based in nonsense. When you hear the hooves, don’t think “zebra”, think “horse”.
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So you are saying the parties in question who have spent their lives lying to empower themselves have suddenly decided to straighten up, fly right, and be purely altruistic?
3 million people have died in this country since January.
Moreover for people who work in the healthcare industry healthy RNs, same as the rest of the population seem to be the exception to the norm.
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Hmmmm...is it the numbers that matter though, or the context?
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 18:34
So you are saying the parties in question who have spent their lives lying to empower themselves have suddenly decided to straighten up, fly right, and be purely altruistic?
Why do you think this is other than it seems? Seriously? The hospitals in this region have been overwhelmed. Do you think it is, somehow, rhetoric and those patients don’t actually exist?
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You mean a nation filled with unhealthy people are taking the brunt of Mother Nature? Say it ain’t so.
If it only saves one life WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING
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You have to think big picture. If covid depletes a region's CCU capacity, when your healthy ass gets hit by a drunk...well, covid just killed you too, in a round about way, because there is nowhere for you to get care.
Even those of us like myself who are anti-lockdown, etc. and feel people have a right to choose to gather, or not, etc. are telling you...storm's a coming. I personally dont care if anyone listens to me or not there. But I am laying it out as an explanation/datapoint.
Why is it foolish exactly? As I mentioned earlier, the bulk of the people pushing this have also been the people pushing anti 2nd Amendment narratives and other attacks. It is rather easy to find where they are lying on their other initiatives so why would it be foolish to assume their typical behavior is what we are seeing here?
Because what I see on the news actually does match what I see in person, once you take the sensationalism out of it. Yes the news oversells. Sex sells. Is what it is. They may list a 300# person as "healthy", because they dknf have diabetes yet or something, but it's still a strange flu that makes hospitals create entire wards for it, and keeps them full...
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 18:40
You have to think big picture. If covid depletes a region's CCU capacity, when your healthy ass gets hit by a drunk...well, covid just killed you too, in a round about way, because there is nowhere for you to get care.
Even those of us like myself who are anti-lockdown, etc. and feel people have a right to choose to gather, or not, etc. are telling you...storm's a coming. I personally dont care if anyone listens to me or not there. But I am laying it out as an explanation/datapoint.
How dare you care about health and our rights! It seems lime all want to force you to take one side or the other when both are wrong.
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How dare you care about health and our rights! It seems lime all want to force you to take one side or the other when both are wrong.
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Pretty much. One can be intellectually honest and also realize medical health is secondary to mental health or the right to make informed choices, for many. Like you say though, people are extremists and when you refuse to play their game, they lose their minds trying to force you into the role they desire for you.
Why do you think this is other than it seems? Seriously? The hospitals in this region have been overwhelmed. Do you think it is, somehow, rhetoric and those patients don’t actually exist?
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The groups(and many of the specific individuals) I have been lied to by for decades are at the front of this.
So far we have been treated to things like sitting down to dinner with family/any actual church attendance is going to kill everyone while riots and leftist political rallies of any size are stated to be 100% safe and as the IL judge mentioned earlier in the year an abortion clinic was safe, but getting a colonoscopy would kill thousands, and on and on.
So why should I believe them on this exactly? And since many of the same slogans are used, why do I need to believe their anti 2nd Amendment mantra as well?
The groups(and many of the specific individuals) I have been lied to by for decades are at the front of this.
So far we have been treated to things like sitting down to dinner with family/any actual church attendance is going to kill everyone while riots and leftist political rallies of any size are stated to be 100% safe and as the IL judge mentioned earlier in the year an abortion clinic was safe, but getting a colonoscopy would kill thousands, and on and on.
So why should I believe them on this exactly? And since many of the same slogans are used, why do I need to believe their anti 2nd Amendment mantra as well?
Because it's not just big government or political entities telling you this. I agree the lockdowns and so forth are politically driven, but covid is indeed real and wrecking shit.
Because what I see on the news actually does match what I see in person, once you take the sensationalism out of it. Yes the news oversells. Sex sells. Is what it is. They may list a 300# person as "healthy", because they dknf have diabetes yet or something, but it's still a strange flu that makes hospitals create entire wards for it, and keeps them full...
Not limited to the news. Why did the medical examiner feel the need to list a motorcyclist's cause of death as covid after the guy was smeared down a highway? In that case it was a news crew that shamed him into changing it and not his colleagues.
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 18:58
The groups(and many of the specific individuals) I have been lied to by for decades are at the front of this.
So far we have been treated to things like sitting down to dinner with family/any actual church attendance is going to kill everyone while riots and leftist political rallies of any size are stated to be 100% safe and as the IL judge mentioned earlier in the year an abortion clinic was safe, but getting a colonoscopy would kill thousands, and on and on.
So why should I believe them on this exactly? And since many of the same slogans are used, why do I need to believe their anti 2nd Amendment mantra as well?
You’re ignoring the forrest for the trees, aren’t you?
The hospitals are being overwhelmed and you’re here telling me it’s a lie when I’m in the thick of it. Lord help you.
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Not limited to the news. Why did the medical examiner fe the need to list a motorcyclist's cause of death as covid after the guy was smeared down a highway? In that case it was a news crew that shamed him into changing it and not his colleagues.
Not saying this is the case, but a good friend of mine had an MI and died. He totalled his car as a result.
Otherwise, you're arguing nuances. Covid is a real and pressing issue, and that's pretty much that. How we should deal with it, is where the debate comes in.
You’re ignoring the forrest for the trees, aren’t you?
The hospitals are being overwhelmed and you’re here telling me it’s a lie when I’m in the thick of it. Lord help you.
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I have been hearing the same themes with gun violence for awhile now. Similar solutions always get floated with that claimed problem as well.
Not saying this is the case, but a good friend of mine had an MI and died. He totalled his car as a result.
Otherwise, you're arguing nuances. Covid is a real and pressing issue, and that's pretty much that. How we should deal with it, is where the debate comes in.
I have known of people who had heart attacks while driving and then wrecked.
If that was the case and the motorcyclist had a giant covid attack then the medical examiner didn't need to suddenly develop the same mannerisms as a 5 year old who got in to the cookie jar when he was confronted about the cause of death, nor did he need to change the listed cause of death.
I am unaware of any valued .gov officials or trusted members of the medical or scientific communities that think there is any way to deal with it short of eliminating curtailing (on through to eliminating) liberties.
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 19:09
I have been hearing the same themes with him violence for awhile now. Similar solutions always get floated with that claimed problem as well.
Let’s pretend all the numbers are fake. Let’s pretend (and that takes lots of imagination) you’re right, how do you explain the overwhelmed hospital systems and how do you propose we solve it?
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Because it's not just big government or political entities telling you this. I agree the lockdowns and so forth are politically driven, but covid is indeed real and wrecking shit.
These are the same experts who think racism is the most critical public health crisis of our time so I don’t put a lot of stock in their expertise.
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Let’s pretend all the numbers are fake. Let’s pretend (and that takes lots of imagination) you’re right, how do you explain the overwhelmed hospital systems and how do you propose we solve it?
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Crack downs on non leftist groups meeting, bans on US citizens moving within the US combined with open borders, and bans on freedom of speech/thought seem to be some of the preferred ones.
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 19:15
These are the same experts who think racism is the most critical public health crisis of our time so I don’t put a lot of stock in their expertise.
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Let’s pretend you’re right.
How do you explain that the hospitals are overwhelmed and how do you solve it?
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 19:15
Crack downs on non leftist groups meeting, bans on US citizens moving within the US combined with open borders, and bans on freedom of speech/thought seem to be some of the preferred ones.
Thanks for being helpful.
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Let’s pretend all the numbers are fake. Let’s pretend (and that takes lots of imagination) you’re right, how do you explain the overwhelmed hospital systems and how do you propose we solve it?
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Maybe stop treating things like Bio level 4 and putting people out on leave after “exposure”.
I’m sure there’s no financial insensitive to maintaining a perpetual state of implosion either.
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Thanks for being helpful.
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Just repeating the mantra I hear multiple times a day that is the new normal.
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 19:18
Maybe stop treating things like Bio level 4 and putting people out on leave after “exposure”.
I’m sure there’s no financial insensitive to maintaining a perpetual state of implosion either.
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How is that going to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed?
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 19:19
Just repeating the mantra I hear multiple times a day that is the new normal.
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Your attitude discouraged people from taking rational positions that both maintains liberty and helps prevent collapse of the critical care units.
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How is that going to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed?
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Don’t know don’t care. With the fatality rate being as low as it is of they’re still fvcking things up then it sounds like the experts are severely lacking in competency.
ICUs we’re running on the ragged edge before Covid so that’s nothing new.
How about you tell us your grand plan
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PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 19:25
Don’t know don’t care. With the fatality rate being as low as it is of they’re still fvcking things up then it sounds like the experts are severely lacking in competency.
ICUs we’re running on the ragged edge before Covid so that’s nothing new.
How about you tell us your grand plan
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No, they weren’t on the ragged edge before. But when you get hit by a drunk driver and need a vent you’ll just have to die. Or when you have that heart attack. Or when your dad has a stroke. So on and so forth.
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@jpmuscle You think ICUs were this packed before Covid???? Bold statement, present the data from a credible source to backup this claim.,. You have been posting more and more unhinged nuggets lately and heading down some serious rabbit holes. If you really do think this is all make believe I highly suggest you try expand your circle of friends to include healthcare professionals who are dealing with this on the front lines every day. Several are here trying to provide context yet you continually and obstinately refuse to accept their input.
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Your attitude discouraged people from taking rational positions that both maintains liberty and helps prevent collapse of the critical care units.
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When this first lit off I thought maybe it was mostly to all legit and the crack downs on freedom of assembly, movement and so on came very early on so my "attitude" during that phase would have pleased you.
Then I start picking up on a few things like those making demands didn't abide by the same demands they made on others.
My dental appointment during that time frame got canceled and that was no big deal, but then I was hearing about things like colonoscopies getting cancelled which seemed like less of a good idea. Then it starts hitting the news that abortion clinics were open which is about an inch away from a colonoscopy so things started sounding like a crock of shit.
Any sort of peaceable assembly...weddings, funerals, cook outs, church services, and others became verboten. Not fun, but I could understand it. Since then, we have had riots and other massive leftists demonstrations that we are assured are safe as safe can be. Hell, there was an on premise gay sex club in operation for 2 months after everything else in Michigan got shut down and that only got closed because so many people were complaining for weeks.
I don't think me or my attitude have much to do with anything, but do feel free to come back and lecture me about the need for firearms safety initiatives in the coming months. Most of the wording should stay the same.
When this first lit off I thought maybe it was mostly to all legit and the crack downs on freedom of assembly, movement and so on came very early on so my "attitude" during that phase would have pleased you.
Then I start picking up on a few things like those making demands didn't abide by the same demands they made on others.
My dental appointment during that time frame got canceled and that was no big deal, but then I was hearing about things like colonoscopies getting cancelled which seemed like less of a good idea. Then it starts hitting the news that abortion clinics were open which is about an inch away from a colonoscopy so things started sounding like a crock of shit.
Any sort of peaceable assembly...weddings, funerals, cook outs, church services, and others became verboten. Not fun, but I could understand it. Since then, we have had riots and other massive leftists demonstrations that we are assured are safe as safe can be. Hell, there was an on premise gay sex club in operation for 2 months after everything else in Michigan got shut down and that only got closed because so many people were complaining for weeks.
I don't think me or my attitude have much to do with anything, but do feel free to come back and lecture me about the need for firearms safety initiatives in the coming months. Most of the wording should stay the same.
Well put. I work in the medical field and COVID is indeed real. That said, the hypocrisy of those dictating to us (like Der Fuhrer Newsome for instance) is enraging. If you are at risk, take precautions. Do not expect society to stop on a dime to protect YOU. Protect yourself. Have groceries delivered. Have family run errands for you. Don't expect the economy and people's lives to come to a screeching halt because YOU are at risk.
Make no mistake: I do NOT want to get this shit. I see it on an almost daily basis. Working at a hospital you see the worst of every ailment out there, COVID included ('cause a hospital is where you go!). If you are one of those it hits hard it can suck balls big-time. Yes, our COVID census is up again. Yet I do not see shutting down our country/economy again as the answer......unless killing it is the objective.
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 19:56
When this first lit off I thought maybe it was mostly to all legit and the crack downs on freedom of assembly, movement and so on came very early on so my "attitude" during that phase would have pleased you.
Then I start picking up on a few things like those making demands didn't abide by the same demands they made on others.
My dental appointment during that time frame got canceled and that was no big deal, but then I was hearing about things like colonoscopies getting cancelled which seemed like less of a good idea. Then it starts hitting the news that abortion clinics were open which is about an inch away from a colonoscopy so things started sounding like a crock of shit.
Any sort of peaceable assembly...weddings, funerals, cook outs, church services, and others became verboten. Not fun, but I could understand it. Since then, we have had riots and other massive leftists demonstrations that we are assured are safe as safe can be. Hell, there was an on premise gay sex club in operation for 2 months after everything else in Michigan got shut down and that only got closed because so many people were complaining for weeks.
I don't think me or my attitude have much to do with anything, but do feel free to come back and lecture me about the need for firearms safety initiatives in the coming months. Most of the wording should stay the same.
I love how you’re putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. If you’d read anything I’ve written you’d see some of us are concerned with liberty AND not overwhelming the system.
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@jpmuscle You think ICUs were this packed before Covid???? Bold statement, present the data from a credible source to backup this claim.,. You have been posting more and more unhinged nuggets lately and heading down some serious rabbit holes. If you really do think this is all make believe I highly suggest you try expand your circle of friends to include healthcare professionals who are dealing with this on the front lines every day. Several are here trying to provide context yet you continually and obstinately refuse to accept their input.
Before the last month the ICU at my wife's hospital (largest in Utah I believe) had Covid patients but it was quite manageable. And before Covid the ICU was NOT being run ragged and packed. It had occasional peaks where it would fill up for a few days but was rather normal. Now, for the last month, it is overflowing with Covid cases and is being run ragged.
Well put. I work in the medical field and COVID is indeed real. That said, the hypocrisy of those dictating to us (like Der Fuhrer Newsome for instance) is enraging. If you are at risk, take precautions. Do not expect society to stop on a dime to protect YOU. Protect yourself. Have groceries delivered. Have family run errands for you. Don't expect the economy and people's lives to come to a screeching halt because YOU are at risk.
This. Exactly this.
@jpmuscle You think ICUs were this packed before Covid???? Bold statement, present the data from a credible source to backup this claim.,. You have been posting more and more unhinged nuggets lately and heading down some serious rabbit holes. If you really do think this is all make believe I highly suggest you try expand your circle of friends to include healthcare professionals who are dealing with this on the front lines every day. Several are here trying to provide context yet you continually and obstinately refuse to accept their input.
I’ll get right on that dude.
I never said it wasn’t real but this sensationalist BS and draconian knee jerk stupidity is decimating far more lives for absolutely zero positive gain. And I’m sick of it.
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I love how you’re putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. If you’d read anything I’ve written you’d see some of us are concerned with liberty AND not overwhelming the system.
I’ll get right on that dude.
I never said it wasn’t real but this sensationalist BS and draconian knee jerk stupidity is decimating far more lives for absolutely zero positive gain. And I’m sick of it.
I happen to agree with your sentiments. We have passed the point where the damage that lock downs do to people and the economy have exceeded the good they are doing. The generational damage is horrific. If the elites want to decimate any vestiges of the middle and upper middle class, just keep it up. I think that's what they secretly want, because its easier to keep the little people under control when they depend on Big Government.
I have known of people who had heart attacks while driving and then wrecked.
If that was the case and the motorcyclist had a giant covid attack then the medical examiner didn't need to suddenly develop the same mannerisms as a 5 year old who got in to the cookie jar when he was confronted about the cause of death, nor did he need to change the listed cause of death.
I am unaware of any valued .gov officials or trusted members of the medical or scientific communities that think there is any way to deal with it short of eliminating curtailing (on through to eliminating) liberties.
Curbing liberty is the most effective way, technically, but that's not an acceptable path for me, personally.
I happen to agree with your sentiments. We have passed the point where the damage that lock downs do to people and the economy have exceeded the good they are doing. The generational damage is horrific. If the elites want to decimate any vestiges of the middle and upper middle class, just keep it up. I think that's what they secretly want, because its easier to keep the little people under control when they depend on Big Government.
Agreed. I think that there are two paths: accept limiting of freedom -or- accept that some healthy people will just die. Or accept a mix of that. I'm kind of a fan of mixing it. If your spouse has covid...maybe dont go to the movies even if you feel fine, for example. Or if you have or think you have it, maybe you should wear a mask if you must go out and get some food etc. Common sense shit, really.
I happen to agree with your sentiments. We have passed the point where the damage that lock downs do to people and the economy have exceeded the good they are doing. The generational damage is horrific. If the elites want to decimate any vestiges of the middle and upper middle class, just keep it up. I think that's what they secretly want, because its easier to keep the little people under control when they depend on Big Government.
I don’t buy that if left unchecked millions are going to die so yea it’s all sensationalist fear mongering.
The math and the immunity development works simply doesn’t support that historically. Has it and will it be a bumpy road? Sure, but this global warmingesque we’re all going to die in 5 years unless we do something dramatic RIGHT NOW, is pure idiocy.
And instead of pandering to stupidity we should be promoting as a society healthy lifestyles and habits. The present medical model is asinine insofar as financial incentives only really exist to stabilize the weak, ill and to leach off of them for as long as possible. You can’t make any money off of healthy people so it’s no wonder the industry is balls deep in this shit show.
Want to not die from Covid? Stop eating McDonald’s, sitting in the couch all day, and exercise.
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Curbing liberty is the most effective way, technically, but that's not an acceptable path for me, personally.
And that’s not an option and people need to stop talking like it’s the reasonable thing to consider doing.
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And that’s not an option and people need to stop talking like it’s the reasonable thing to consider doing.
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Different people have different values. My issue is when they begin to push those values onto others. Whatever YOUR personal rheostat is set on, is YOUR business. My goal is simply to educate and allow people to make their own decisions as best suits them.
Different people have different values. My issue is when they begin to push those values onto others. Whatever YOUR personal rheostat is set on, is YOUR business. My goal is simply to educate and allow people to make their own decisions as best suits them.
There’s a difference between people curbing their behavior of their own volition and government telling them what to do via decree.
Otherwise it’s the same public health legal construct nonsense that gets thrown around about gun control. Different context, same issue, both are bad for liberty. Nothing changed because of a virus.
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Positive infection rates are meaningless as metric.
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Here's another problem. Person I know tested positive so everyone in the house got tested, daughter had markers in her blood that indicated she already had C-19 but didn't realize it and she never showed any symptoms.
So that makes it a little more challenging. I had been under the impression that IF you get it, you'd damn sure know about it. But if a 20 something female can have and survive infection without even realizing it then we have an odd bug for sure.
Here's another problem. Person I know tested positive so everyone in the house got tested, daughter had markers in her blood that indicated she already had C-19 but didn't realize it and she never showed any symptoms.
So that makes it a little more challenging. I had been under the impression that IF you get it, you'd damn sure know about it. But if a 20 something female can have and survive infection without even realizing it then we have an odd bug for sure.
I've tested many people who were asymptomatic of showed very very minimal symptoms. That's part of the issue driving it. You may not know you have it and still kill someone deader 'n shit. A small percentage, to be sure, but in a country of hundreds of millions, with a healthcare system that operates on bare minimums at the front of the house, it is not only a real issue, but one that exposes many deep seated issues within the system itself.
There’s a difference between people curbing their behavior of their own volition and government telling them what to do via decree.
Otherwise it’s the same public health legal construct nonsense that gets thrown around about gun control. Different context, same issue, both are bad for liberty. Nothing changed because of a virus.
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Right, and I agree, but to deny that COVID is wrecking things is just ignorance. That is my interjection into this. Yes it's real, yes it's killing lots of people. Yes it's a huge political football and leverage tool, sadly.
I've tested many people who were asymptomatic of showed very very minimal symptoms. That's part of the issue driving it. You may not know you have it and still kill someone deader 'n shit. A small percentage, to be sure, but in a country of hundreds of millions, with a healthcare system that operates on bare minimums at the front of the house, it is not only a real issue, but one that exposes many deep seated issues within the system itself.
Yeah, this has lots of moving parts and it's more than "wear a mask" or "it's just fake news." It was being passed around the house unknown until the mother actually had symptoms and tested positive. She seems ok, seems like she will be ok but I guess it's been being passed around the house for over a month and somehow the other four members of the family managed to no get it so far.
People need to understand viruses behave like a virus and there are no hard and fast rules. We all know that guy who when the entire office would come down with the flu never even got the sniffles, but we also all knew that guy who if he even had the tiniest cough would wipe out the entire office except for that other guy.
Without getting retarded about it, I'm trying to do my due diligence. I'm only going into a crowded Wal Mart if I absolutely have to, otherwise I try and shop other places at off hours. I wear a mask (shemegh actually) just so everyone else "feels safe" than out of any belief that it's going to actually protect me. I wear work gloves for my actual protection.
@jpmuscle It doesn’t prey on just the weak or infirmed. Marine Corps Gunny friend of mine, marathon runner, Mormon—max PT score for twenty years, face down on vent three weeks. He can’t walk 20ft without stopping to breath. Another buddy, Army, max PT, cross fit extremist—lost 40lbs of muscle in three weeks, was on vent for one and oxygen for two, needs help to get off couch three months later. Two family friends over 70, not obese—died within a week. Family member/nurse with diabetes has had it twice and kicked her ass sideways both times. Family member paramedic twice minor symptoms. Two of my best friend’s 20 somethings had it, no symptoms. Spouting off like this is just culling the herd and **** everybody is why this disease is exploding right now. This is not a joke, it’s not made up, the virus itself is not political. I’m for keeping things open, not locking down—but if you are going to be a super spreader on purpose and you kill people because of pride, ignorance or stupidity that’s on you and you should be held accountable. Nobody knows for sure how their immune system is going to react to this thing until they catch it. If wearing the mask reduces the chances of spreading this thing by 1%, that’s one person in a hundred that might get to have Christmas with their family next year. Why not support that? This isn’t bump stocks, pistol braces or 1$ per round ammo tax. This is maybe helping to not have someone drown in their own bodily fluids by wearing a stupid ****ing mask until we’re vaccinated. 1% spread across 300 million people is the population of Iowa not drowning face down on a ventilator. If you can’t get onboard with that—you are the one with a problem. Be a grown ass man and own doing the right thing because it’s the right thing and not because you had to be told to do it.
@jpmuscle It doesn’t prey on just the weak or infirmed. Marine Corps Gunny friend of mine, marathon runner, Mormon—max PT score for twenty years, face down on vent three weeks. He can’t walk 20ft without stopping to breath. Another buddy, Army, max PT, cross fit extremist—lost 40lbs of muscle in three weeks, was on vent for one and oxygen for two, needs help to get off couch three months later. Two family friends over 70, not obese—died within a week. Family member/nurse with diabetes has had it twice and kicked her ass sideways both times. Family member paramedic twice minor symptoms. Two of my best friend’s 20 somethings had it, no symptoms. Spouting off like this is just culling the herd and **** everybody is why this disease is exploding right now. This is not a joke, it’s not made up, the virus itself is not political. I’m for keeping things open, not locking down—but if you are going to be a super spreader on purpose and you kill people because of pride, ignorance or stupidity that’s on you and you should be held accountable. Nobody knows for sure how their immune system is going to react to this thing until they catch it. If wearing the mask reduces the chances of spreading this thing by 1%, that’s one person in a hundred that might get to have Christmas with their family next year. Why not support that? This isn’t bump stocks, pistol braces or 1$ per round ammo tax. This is maybe helping to not have someone drown in their own bodily fluids by wearing a stupid ****ing mask until we’re vaccinated. 1% spread across 300 million people is the population of Iowa not drowning face down on a ventilator. If you can’t get onboard with that—you are the one with a problem. Be a grown ass man and own doing the right thing because it’s the right thing and not because you had to be told to do it.
People only give a **** about what they give a **** about, and **** 'em, is the mindset you have to adopt, really, is what I've found. I just try to live my life.
Here's another problem. Person I know tested positive so everyone in the house got tested, daughter had markers in her blood that indicated she already had C-19 but didn't realize it and she never showed any symptoms.
So that makes it a little more challenging. I had been under the impression that IF you get it, you'd damn sure know about it. But if a 20 something female can have and survive infection without even realizing it then we have an odd bug for sure.I believe it was said that the majority of people....80 something percent won't even know. And it's not just a 20 something female. Guy that owns my building is in his 60s. Relatively healthy, plays tennis, tries to stay active more or less, not overweight...etc.. but used to be a heavy heavy smoker for 20 some years. The way he explained it was when he would wake up he would light a cigarette and never touch the lighter again until the next morning. He got sick and only found out because his wife got the sniffles and went to get tested. She was positive and so was he. Her sniffles went away in a few days and he had zero symptoms. I wouldn't say she's obese but she's a rather rectangular woman
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~SNIP~
This is maybe helping to not have someone drown in their own bodily fluids by wearing a stupid ****ing mask until we’re vaccinated. 1% spread across 300 million people is the population of Iowa not drowning face down on a ventilator. If you can’t get onboard with that—you are the one with a problem. Be a grown ass man and own doing the right thing because it’s the right thing and not because you had to be told to do it.
You absolutely nailed one of the reasons we are in our current situation. Covid spreads when people are moving around the country, gathering in groups with folks outside their households, and failing to perform personal sanitation BECAUSE they believe masks are some sort of magic talisman.
If you think 1% is an issue, how do you feel about the 5% who will not be protected from Covid from the vaccine? That's over 15 million people at risk IF everyone in the US is vaccinated.
I wear a mask on the chance it may prevent my catching Covid. I don't lose my mind when I see people who don't.
We need to accept the fact that Covid is not going away and stop regarding any and all Covid related restrictions as temporary. Covid is NEVER going away. We will just have a majority of people who are resistant to it either from vaccine or from catching it.
Andy
ChattanoogaPhil
11-19-20, 07:19
If you think 1% is an issue, how do you feel about the 5% who will not be protected from Covid from the vaccine? That's over 15 million people at risk IF everyone in the US is vaccinated.
The 1% or 5% might be high-risk individuals but if most people get vaccinated (as you suggest above) then the virus will have a difficult time finding a host resulting in near zero spread. The high-risk individuals will be at very low risk of contracting Covid. Herd immunity.
You're my boy, Will, but I tend to think politicians apply to that statement far, far, far, far more than the general public.
Goes without saying! We can count on one hand the politicians with two working neurons sadly, but that's another issue.
You do understand the cases of COVID prior to March were not confirmed but EVERY patient with a respiratory illness gets tested for influenzas as part of a broad respiratory panel, right? Even in off-seasons.
I swear to God, the tinfoil is so strong on both sides, no wonder the public is confused.
Quoted and in bold for truth. It's been disheartening to see otherwise intelligent people go down that path hook line and sinker.
There's no conspiracy. What there has been is a lot of incompetence, politicization, ignorance, and polarization via TDS, that's lead to a cluster F we are all paying for now. When this crap is finally over, there will be a lot of fingers pointed and most of them will be right.
Note the actual sci/med members with real expertise, docs and other med pros actually working in the trenches, who were very helpful in the beginning, seem to be obtaining from commenting lately, and that's a damn shame. I found it very useful to get here their opinions on various topics, studies, reports coming out, etc.
@jpmuscle You think ICUs were this packed before Covid???? Bold statement, present the data from a credible source to backup this claim.,. You have been posting more and more unhinged nuggets lately and heading down some serious rabbit holes. If you really do think this is all make believe I highly suggest you try expand your circle of friends to include healthcare professionals who are dealing with this on the front lines every day. Several are here trying to provide context yet you continually and obstinately refuse to accept their input.
We have a handful of them here who were of great value who seem to be abstaining from commenting these days, no doubt tired of the nonsense and their info being ignored. I know various working with covid patients and such, and many posting on this topic don't have a clue what they're talking about. Normally M4C is excellent at keeping people in their lane, but this one has taken on a life of it's own unfortunately. These threads are not M4Cs finest moments and the mods doing the best they can, the legit SME's appear to be tired of it and no longer responding, and a small group of members who have not gone down the rabbit hole to hold the line, and are losing.
I think we can all agree the covid event was handled badly, mostly due to timing/TDS/politicization of the response, but we are here now and will have to account for the rest at another time.
Note, from the beginning I was trying to discuss a more rational approach to the covid containment and such, so I'm not in any way agreeing with how it went:
Covid-19: Who Is Fact Checking The Fact Checkers? (https://medium.com/@willbrink/covid-19-who-is-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers-c1fb4ef96773)
Averageman
11-19-20, 09:43
It's ridiculous, you get to a certain age and we expect you to act with a certain level of individual rights, responsibilities and freedoms.
I honestly don't need your policies to guide my life, really, most of us have a handle on it, we've not gotten sick, go away, leave us alone. Please.
Now that I've said all that, let me explain, your Leadership in this has pretty much sucked.
We have a handful of them here who were of great value who seem to be abstaining from commenting these days, no doubt tired of the nonsense and their info being ignored. I know various working with covid patients and such, and many posting on this topic don't have a clue what they're talking about. Normally M4C is excellent at keeping people in their lane, but this one has taken on a life of it's own unfortunately. These threads are not M4Cs finest moments and the mods doing the best they can, the legit SME's appear to be tired of it and no longer responding, and a small group of members who have not gone down the rabbit hole to hold the line, and are losing.
I think we can all agree the covid event was handled badly, mostly due to timing/TDS/politicization of the response, but we are here now and will have to account for the rest at another time.
Note, from the beginning I was trying to discuss a more rational approach to the covid containment and such, so I'm not in any way agreeing with how it went:
Covid-19: Who Is Fact Checking The Fact Checkers? (https://medium.com/@willbrink/covid-19-who-is-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers-c1fb4ef96773)
Exactly. If Covid wasn’t a political football for the ComDems we would all be in a much better position now. But they totally destroyed any reasonable conversation and dissemination of information that no one really knows what to believe.
It's ridiculous, you get to a certain age and we expect you to act with a certain level of individual rights, responsibilities and freedoms.
I honestly don't need your policies to guide my life, really, most of us have a handle on it, we've not gotten sick, go away, leave us alone. Please.
Now that I've said all that, let me explain, your Leadership in this has pretty much sucked.
This.
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@jpmuscle It doesn’t prey on just the weak or infirmed. Marine Corps Gunny friend of mine, marathon runner, Mormon—max PT score for twenty years, face down on vent three weeks. He can’t walk 20ft without stopping to breath. Another buddy, Army, max PT, cross fit extremist—lost 40lbs of muscle in three weeks, was on vent for one and oxygen for two, needs help to get off couch three months later. Two family friends over 70, not obese—died within a week. Family member/nurse with diabetes has had it twice and kicked her ass sideways both times. Family member paramedic twice minor symptoms. Two of my best friend’s 20 somethings had it, no symptoms. Spouting off like this is just culling the herd and **** everybody is why this disease is exploding right now. This is not a joke, it’s not made up, the virus itself is not political. I’m for keeping things open, not locking down—but if you are going to be a super spreader on purpose and you kill people because of pride, ignorance or stupidity that’s on you and you should be held accountable. Nobody knows for sure how their immune system is going to react to this thing until they catch it. If wearing the mask reduces the chances of spreading this thing by 1%, that’s one person in a hundred that might get to have Christmas with their family next year. Why not support that? This isn’t bump stocks, pistol braces or 1$ per round ammo tax. This is maybe helping to not have someone drown in their own bodily fluids by wearing a stupid ****ing mask until we’re vaccinated. 1% spread across 300 million people is the population of Iowa not drowning face down on a ventilator. If you can’t get onboard with that—you are the one with a problem. Be a grown ass man and own doing the right thing because it’s the right thing and not because you had to be told to do it.
Spare me the sanctimony.
But but but ... if it saves just one life it’s all worth it right? [emoji849]
As for the experts there are plenty that advise the opposite of what’s being espoused here so the professionals can’t even agree on the most basic aspects of this circus.
But by all means keep getting your hackles up if you want.
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Averageman
11-19-20, 10:38
When faced with the choice of Freedom or Safety, I will choose freedom.
Please feel free to hide away in your own home if that is what you choose, otherwise step off.
People only give a **** about what they give a **** about, and **** 'em, is the mindset you have to adopt, really, is what I've found. I just try to live my life.
Oh no, I ABSOLUTELY give a **** about people. So much so I want them to be free to make informed choices about how they live they’re own ******* lives. Crazy huh? Goddamn individualism and freedom of choice is terrifying isn’t it?
If all it takes is a public health apocalypse by decree to completely do away with that autonomy and half the country clamoring for more out of fear I’d say we have a lot bigger problems as a nation.
But that’s nothing new.
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Just remember, when you go into a business, it's their property, their rules. Kind of like going into someone's home as a guest. You show respect and attempt to abide by the rules of the house. That all ends for me when I am outside, in the open air, whether a parking lot, park or the Great Wide Open out here. Enclosed spaces not owned by me I play by the rules, or don't go into. Pretty simple.
Just remember, when you go into a business, it's their property, their rules. Kind of like going into someone's home as a guest. You show respect and attempt to abide by the rules of the house. That all ends for me when I am outside, in the open air, whether a parking lot, park or the Great Wide Open out here. Enclosed spaces not owned by me I play by the rules, or don't go into. Pretty simple.
And that’s fine well and good.
But that’s a stark contrast to private businesses turning around and being forcefully mandated to comply with arbitrary local/city/state edicts or face monetary fines and/or closure.
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When faced with the choice of Freedom or Safety, I will choose freedom.
Please feel free to hide away in your own home if that is what you choose, otherwise step off.
Yep. ^This^
Anyone who is so afraid, just stay in your home and ask the Feds to take care of you, decide what price you're willing to pay for a perceived "safety".
I will be living my life.
Just remember, when you go into a business, it's their property, their rules. Kind of like going into someone's home as a guest. You show respect and attempt to abide by the rules of the house. That all ends for me when I am outside, in the open air, whether a parking lot, park or the Great Wide Open out here. Enclosed spaces not owned by me I play by the rules, or don't go into. Pretty simple.
Absolutely.
However, those same businesses should have a choice of how they want to conduct their business without the Feds or Staties levying fines and pulling liquor licenses and closing them down.
If a business mandates a mask, I respect their decision and wear one or don't go in. If they don't mandate them I don't wear them.
Freedom and Liberty is pretty simple shit, I don't know why so many people F it up so much.
Averageman
11-19-20, 12:47
Absolutely.
However, those same businesses should have a choice of how they want to conduct their business without the Feds or Staties levying fines and pulling liquor licenses and closing them down.
If a business mandates a mask, I respect their decision and wear one or don't go in. If they don't mandate them I don't wear them.
Freedom and Liberty is pretty simple shit, I don't know why so many people F it up so much.
When they ask you to wear a mask, does that mean the Americans with Disabilities Act is no longer applicable?
Can you actually mandate or are you going out on to some legal limb for which you haven't a clue?
When they ask you to wear a mask, does that mean the Americans with Disabilities Act is no longer applicable?
Can you actually mandate or are you going out on to some legal limb for which you haven't a clue?
Fun fact, in my state if you go to the gym and are playing tennis you don’t have to wear a mask because even if you’re over 70 like everyone I see on the court is, Covid won’t attack and kill you if you have a tennis racket in your hand.
We must DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE EVEN IF IT SAVES JUST ONE LIFE, unless you’re playing tennis with a bunch of geriatrics then it’s fine.
But damn you if you want to have Christmas with your family.
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When they ask you to wear a mask, does that mean the Americans with Disabilities Act is no longer applicable?
Can you actually mandate or are you going out on to some legal limb for which you haven't a clue?
Legally you can refuse to wear a mask and posit a medical condition as the reason. If they ask you to explain the condition or question you about it- you can discuss your HIPPA rights and tell them to speak to your attorney if they'd like to push the matter further.
I went that route many times and people STFU and walked away quick.
It became more of a hassle to have this conversation over and over again and deal with moronic D-Bags following zee order's from zee führer throughout stores and restaurants, so I now wear the mask or don't go in.
I've been frequenting places that don't follow the mask orders and giving them my money as a reward for their decision to allow people to choose as they see fit.
Fun fact, in my state if you go to the gym and are playing tennis you don’t have to wear a mask because even if you’re over 70 like everyone I see on the court is, Covid won’t attack and kill you if you have a tennis racket in your hand.
We must DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE EVEN IF IT SAVES JUST ONE LIFE, unless you’re playing tennis with a bunch of geriatrics then it’s fine.
But damn you if you want to have Christmas with your family.
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Don't forget restaurants where you have to wear a mask when walking in and out and while not at your table, but then when you sit down to eat you have a magical bubble of protection from the Rona and can take the mask off!!!!
It makes all the sense in the world!
And that’s fine well and good.
But that’s a stark contrast to private businesses turning around and being forcefully mandated to comply with arbitrary local/city/state edicts or face monetary fines and/or closure.
Well here's the latest from New Mexico. Effective this past Monday, we are on lockdown. Big box stores like Wal-Mart/Sam's Club, etc. have a 25% max capacity or 75 people, whichever is less. We are told that 75 people limit includes employees. That would leave very few employees in an average Wal-Mart. Everything is now closing down at 10pm as well. I was in Santa Fe last night and saw lines of people waiting outside of Wal-Mart. They are being allowed to have in-store shopping because of groceries.
One chain of stores, the Christian based Hobby Lobby has been limited to the same 75 person rule. Since they don't sell food and other items, the governor said effective today (19 Nov 20) that Hobby Lobby has to shut down. As of this time right now (12:32pm) the Hobby Lobby stores are defiant and have remained open. May be an interesting case to watch. I support them whole heartedly. All of this crap is all over the place. In some States, 5 people can gather for Thanksgiving, but 30 people can attend a funeral. We intend to defy the State anyway....there will be 11-15 here for Thanksgiving and that includes some ranch hands and the foreman and his family.
Well here's the latest from New Mexico. Effective this past Monday, we are on lockdown. Big box stores like Wal-Mart/Sam's Club, etc. have a 25% max capacity or 75 people, whichever is less. We are told that 75 people limit includes employees. That would leave very few employees in an average Wal-Mart. Everything is now closing down at 10pm as well. I was in Santa Fe last night and saw lines of people waiting outside of Wal-Mart. They are being allowed to have in-store shopping because of groceries.
One chain of stores, the Christian based Hobby Lobby has been limited to the same 75 person rule. Since they don't sell food and other items, the governor said effective today (19 Nov 20) that Hobby Lobby has to shut down. As of this time right now (12:32pm) the Hobby Lobby stores are defiant and have remained open. May be an interesting case to watch. I support them whole heartedly. All of this crap is all over the place. In some States, 5 people can gather for Thanksgiving, but 30 people can attend a funeral. We intend to defy the State anyway....there will be 11-15 here for Thanksgiving and that includes some ranch hands and the foreman and his family..64358
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.64358
Yeah...once you leave two-lane blacktop, it's 16 miles of very remote and lonely dirt road to get here. We know you're coming long before you get here......
Diamondback
11-19-20, 14:08
All of this crap is all over the place. In some States, 5 people can gather for Thanksgiving, but 30 people can attend a funeral. We intend to defy the State anyway....there will be 11-15 here for Thanksgiving and that includes some ranch hands and the foreman and his family.
"What?! We're just holding a memorial service for our beloved pet turkey! Ol' Tom was a treasured member of the ranch family... *sniffle*"
Oh no, I ABSOLUTELY give a **** about people. So much so I want them to be free to make informed choices about how they live they’re own ******* lives. Crazy huh? Goddamn individualism and freedom of choice is terrifying isn’t it?
If all it takes is a public health apocalypse by decree to completely do away with that autonomy and half the country clamoring for more out of fear I’d say we have a lot bigger problems as a nation.
But that’s nothing new.
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Which is to say...my statement absolutely is accurate for you. You dont care, you gone do you, lol!
I do agree that freedom is first, but covid is indeed real and people need to have good information to make the best choices for themselves.
Which is to say...my statement absolutely is accurate for you. You dont care, you gone do you, lol!
I do agree that freedom is first, but covid is indeed real and people need to have good information to make the best choices for themselves.
Riddle me this. Where do emergency powers assigned and taken by decree end?
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Riddle me this. Where do emergency powers assigned and taken by decree end?
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I'm not a lawyer. Ask one for a more comprehensive and accurate answer. CJ107 was as far as I went down that path, and that was 14 years ago.
PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 17:10
Repeating mantras such as “Rona won’t get you at your table or on the tennis court” is willful ignorance of the intention of risk mitigation.
Now if it’s constitutional, moral, or if there efficacy to the practice is another story.
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Diamondback
11-19-20, 17:20
Riddle me this. Where do emergency powers assigned and taken by decree end?
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When either the Legislatures get pissed and clawback their power with veto-proof majorities or the courts start turning these wannabe-Gauleiters over their knees and spanking 'em.
Or when enough voters get pissed and shove Recalls through. Until one of those three happens, though...
I'm not a lawyer. Ask one for a more comprehensive and accurate answer. CJ107 was as far as I went down that path, and that was 14 years ago.
But HE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING IF IT SAVES JUST ONE LIFE, the consequences of said something being a total afterthought evidently.
Trump got you a vaccine in record time for a novel virus which is something that has never been done before, ever, so what more do you want?
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Repeating mantras such as “Rona won’t get you at your table or on the tennis court” is willful ignorance of the intention of risk mitigation.
Now if it’s constitutional, moral, or if there efficacy to the practice is another story.
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Because it’s not about risk mitigation. If it were why aren’t state legislatures firing up the checkbooks and burning through tax dollars to ensure anyone anywhere can get a mask at a moments notice? Or delivered to their homes?
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 17:30
Because it’s not about risk mitigation. If it were why aren’t state legislatures firing up the checkbooks and burning through tax dollars to ensure anyone anywhere can get a mask at a moments notice? Or delivered to their homes?
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Why would that be, according to you, the only means of risk mitigation? Why do you believe in an all or none approach?
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Business_Casual
11-19-20, 17:32
Why would that be, according to you, the only means of risk mitigation? Why do you believe in an all or none approach?
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He’s just pointing out that it is political and has nothing to do with safety, whatever safety is.
PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 17:35
He’s just pointing out that it is political and has nothing to do with safety, whatever safety is.
Except we do know things such as staying 6 feet apart and reducing congestion do reduce transmission.
The question isn’t what works, like so many want to poke holes in, the question is “should we do it”?
When one says or insinuates such obviously wrong or dense statements, it doesn’t move the pendulum their direction.
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Except we do know things such as staying 6 feet apart and reducing congestion do reduce transmission.
The question isn’t what works, like so many want to poke holes in, the question is “should we do it”?
When one says or insinuates such obviously wrong or dense statements, it doesn’t move the pendulum their direction.
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You seem to have a real challenging time discriminating the difference in terms of legitimacy between organic (alleged) best practice standards and those levied down by decree by hyper-partisan .gov entities under the guise of morally superior public health policies.
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 17:44
You seem to have a real challenging time discriminating the difference in terms of legitimacy between organic (alleged) best practice standards and those levied down by decree by hyper-partisan .gov entities under the guise of morally superior public health policies.
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Actually, I have a very strong grasp of efficacy in this situation having read a significant amount of literature. It does seem, however, you’ve got a problem overcoming your personal biases and preconceived notions.
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platoonDaddy
11-19-20, 17:48
Friends grandson is a 'plebe' at West Point and restricted to the campus. Of course the civilian dining hall workers are off Thanksgiving, therefore they will make box meals for the 4K plus cadets for Thanksgiving. What a crock of shit.
In my time, I was stationed in the wilderness and still received a GREAT MEAL on Thanksgiving.
How frigign sad.
.
Actually, I have a very strong grasp of efficacy in this situation having read a significant amount of literature. It does seem, however, you’ve got a problem overcoming your personal biases and preconceived notions.
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Correct, I’m biased against BS and fear.
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 17:54
Correct, I’m biased against BS and fear.
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So please, expert it epidemiology, what did I say that was BS or fear-based?
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But HE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING IF IT SAVES JUST ONE LIFE, the consequences of said something being a total afterthought evidently.
Trump got you a vaccine in record time for a novel virus which is something that has never been done before, ever, so what more do you want?
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Ummmm....Trump didn't get shit...or do you mean this the same way Obama meant that he got Bin Laden? I am truly impressed with the vaccine news I'm reading so far though. 90-95% efficacy is near unheard of, and so soon. If it's not BS, I am truly in awe!
Ummmm....Trump didn't get shit...or do you mean this the same way Obama meant that he got Bin Laden? I am truly impressed with the vaccine news I'm reading so far though. 90-95% efficacy is near unheard of, and so soon. If it's not BS, I am truly in awe!
Yea you’re right. Trump had nothing to do with that whole warp speed rigamarole and cutting through all the bureaucratic red tape to get a viable vaccine approved. Lol jokes on me
[emoji849]
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You seem to have a real challenging time discriminating the difference in terms of legitimacy between organic (alleged) best practice standards and those levied down by decree by hyper-partisan .gov entities under the guise of morally superior public health policies.
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All of the draconian BS I've seen handed down is actually effective at stopping covid spread, except that they, too, are pandering. To truly be effective you can't let people dine out. That's stupid. Mask up to walk in, mask off to eat? No. You shut the restaurant down. But they know that's a no-go, so we get milquetoast compromises that drastically reduce the effectiveness of the initial plan and just look dumb.
...is the cure worth the side effects? That's the raging debate. We all know exactly how to cure covid infections...but is it morally right? Is it going to produce worse outcomes than covid would? That is the debate.
PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 18:03
All of the draconian BS I've seen handed down is actually effective at stopping covid spread, except that they, too, are pandering. To truly be effective you can't let people dine out. That's stupid. Mask up to walk in, mask off to eat? No. You shut the restaurant down. But they know that's a no-go, so we get milquetoast compromises that drastically reduce the effectiveness of the initial plan and just look dumb.
...is the cure worth the side effects? That's the raging debate. We all know exactly how to cure covid infections...but is it morally right? Is it going to produce worse outcomes than covid would? That is the debate.
There is the problem. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about and looks foolish to those that do. Then he wonders why we lose the argument with the nanny-state crowd. Being ignorant and pretending to have the answers is seen right through by those in the middle.
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All of the draconian BS I've seen handed down is actually effective at stopping covid spread, except that they, too, are pandering. To truly be effective you can't let people dine out. That's stupid. Mask up to walk in, mask off to eat? No. You shut the restaurant down. But they know that's a no-go, so we get milquetoast compromises that drastically reduce the effectiveness of the initial plan and just look dumb.
...is the cure worth the side effects? That's the raging debate. We all know exactly how to cure covid infections...but is it morally right? Is it going to produce worse outcomes than covid would? That is the debate.
And if you or anyone else even remotely onboard with supporting that BS you’re a disgrace of an American citizen.
There is no debate. Some measures are simply outside the bounds of permissible, doable, let alone constitutional in our country, full stop.
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Yea you’re right. Trump had nothing to do with that whole warp speed rigamarole and cutting through all the bureaucratic red tape to get a viable vaccine approved. Lol jokes on me
[emoji849]
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It's not even approved yet. Also, trump or no trump, of the trial literature is correct, thanking trump is about as sensible as thanking the sun God for a sunrise. It's happening regardless.
There is the problem. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about and looks foolish to those that do. Then he wonders why we lose the argument with the nanny-state crowd. Being ignorant and pretending to have the answers is seen right through by those in the middle.
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Sure thing dude. [emoji1303].
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 18:08
Sure thing dude. [emoji1303].
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What is your profession?
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 18:10
And if you or anyone else even remotely onboard with supporting that BS you’re a disgrace of an American citizen.
There is no debate. Some measures are simply outside the bounds of permissible, doable, let alone constitutional in our country, full stop.
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And here we are with over 1/3 of the country supporting it, 1/3 opposed, and 1/3 in the middle. Here you are calling medical professionals and epidemiologists stupid. Do you think you’ll win the argument in such a way?
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And if you or anyone else even remotely onboard with supporting that BS you’re a disgrace of an American citizen.
There is no debate. Some measures are simply outside the bounds of permissible, doable, let alone constitutional in our country, full stop.
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A lot of it isn't unconstitutional. That said, I've always been a fan of freedom>safety. Like I said before, I am just providing commentary from my viewpoint.
What is your profession?
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One of those pesky ones where oath of service and the constitution actually matter.
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And here we are with over 1/3 of the country supporting it, 1/3 opposed, and 1/3 in the middle. Here you are calling medical professionals and epidemiologists stupid. Do you think you’ll win the argument in such a way?
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Ok and? All the ones who speak out against the partisan group think get nuked and censored so your point?
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 18:37
One of those pesky ones where oath of service and the constitution actually matter.
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So why don’t you stay in that lane and talk about the “should we” and “is it legal” rather than pretending you know anything about epidemiology?
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 18:38
Ok and? All the ones who speak out against the partisan group think get nuked and censored so your point?
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Maybe stay in your lane and quit repeating baseless nonsense and you won’t be one of them.
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So why don’t you stay in that lane and talk about the “should we” and “is it legal” rather than pretending you know anything about epidemiology?
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Because when your “should we” nonsense turns into “we must” you should expect push back.
Besides isn’t for the other thread? Pretty sure this one is different subject matter.
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 18:41
Because when your “should we” nonsense turns into “we must” you should expect push back.
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You’re the one sitting with your head in the sand saying measures don’t work, when the overwhelming body of research says they do. When you’re so obviously wrong with point one, why would anybody listen to you when it comes to point two? Credibility matters. You’re making a fool of yourself.
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You’re the one sitting with your head in the sand saying measures don’t work, when the overwhelming body of research says they do. When you’re so obviously wrong with point one, why would anybody listen to you when it comes to point two? Credibility matters. You’re making a fool of yourself.
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Neat.
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 18:43
Neat.
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I rest my case. The SMEs are laughing at you. You’ve had enough rope to hang yourself and you’re actually hurting your mission.
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I rest my case. The SMEs are laughing at you. You’ve had enough rope to hang yourself and you’re actually hurting your mission.
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Good thing I’m not wasting my time on here seeking internet validation demanding people conform their lives to how I see fit.
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PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 18:48
Good thing I’m not wasting my time on here seeking internet validation demanding people conform their lives to how I see fit.
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I don’t think anybody is demanding conformity. But spreading blatant misinformation is juvenile.
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I don’t think anybody is demanding conformity. But spreading blatant misinformation is juvenile.
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This. I could not care less whether people are safe or not. I just dont want them being unsafe due to lies. Freedom of choice means accurate information to make that choice.
@mods you are letting fringe individuals drag this board into a cesspool and at this point, mandatory SSO reporting for some of the views shared. This is not the “start a revolution” forum. GD was closed once, maybe it needs to go away again for a while.
So we had a lockdown 6 months ago. It went longer than the advertised "two weeks" in most places (to include TN). Yet here we are again with a resurgence. The virus didn't go away and is not going to go away. The question was asked if the cure was worse than the disease. So you wreck the greatest economy in the world, and the virus is still there lurking afterwards. Sure, the vaccines will help once they come on line. Then we may start to see a receding spread. However, if you essentially destroy the economy it doesn't just pop right back to where it was.
Instead, a failed economy ushers in something that will NEVER go away and has ramifications far exceeding what COVID will do; in fact, nothing short of a highly contagious Ebola-type scourge could inflict the kind of long-term damage that instituting socialism would. Yes, we on this site may be "enlightened" and swear we'd tough it out and persevere through an uber Great Depression but I will guaran-freaking-tee you the vast majority of our idiotic population would be begging and clamoring for .gov to come to the rescue.
Prudence is the key. Lockdowns didn't go swimmingly well the first time with temporary and dubious "success" at combatting the virus but sure as hell kicked this economy in the balls, and it still hasn't recovered......but COVID did.
@mods you are letting fringe individuals drag this board into a cesspool and at this point, mandatory SSO reporting for some of the views shared. This is not the “start a revolution” forum. GD was closed once, maybe it needs to go away again for a while.
How open-minded of you. I am not going to get into the back-and-forth bickering but are you really suggesting that a forum be censored? Don't we accuse the Left of doing that? You, PR, And WS6 have voiced your opinions and JPM has voiced his. Isn't that what this forum is for?
So we had a lockdown 6 months ago. It went longer than the advertised "two weeks" in most places (to include TN). Yet here we are again with a resurgence. The virus didn't go away and is not going to go away. The question was asked if the cure was worse than the disease. So you wreck the greatest economy in the world, and the virus is still there lurking afterwards. Sure, the vaccines will help once they come on line. Then we may start to see a receding spread. However, if you essentially destroy the economy it doesn't just pop right back to where it was.
Instead, a failed economy ushers in something that will NEVER go away and has ramifications far exceeding what COVID will do; in fact, nothing short of a highly contagious Ebola-type scourge could inflict the kind of long-term damage that instituting socialism would. Yes, we on this site may be "enlightened" and swear we'd tough it out and persevere through an uber Great Depression but I will guaran-freaking-tee you the vast majority of our idiotic population would be begging .gov to come to the rescue.
Prudence is the key. Lockdowns didn't go swimmingly well the first time with temporary and dubious "success" at combatting the virus but sure as hell kicked this economy in the balls, and it still hasn't recovered......but COVID did.
Taiwan solved the problem with a lockdown. Thing was, theirs was utter and complete and very robust in tracing etc. Ergo, it wasn't very long either. That cannot and would not fly here in America. It did and does work though, it's just not in line with our ideology. People pushing for lockdowns need to understand that and to accept that even if a government lockdown is issued, it will be ineffective and just waste manpower and damage lives far worse than covid, imo.
What I see is ideological clash with reality. Eggheads in the lab know a lockdown would work. They just cannot accept that it can't be functionally implemented. Many people opposed to lockdowns do everything they can to discredit then, because of this perverse need to "be morally right", they ignore the cases like Taiwan, so that they dont have to say "a body count is required. I accept this.". And so round and round we go with the "draconian measures won't work" and "you're heartless and need to stay home" rhetoric from either side.
Then there's those of us who are just watching and throwing our .02 in because **** it, why not? Lol
Taiwan solved the problem with a lockdown. Thing was, theirs was utter and complete and very robust in tracing etc. Ergo, it wasn't very long either. That cannot and would not fly here in America. It did and does work though, it's just not in line with our ideology. People pushing for lockdowns need to understand that and to accept that even if a government lockdown is issued, it will be ineffective and just waste manpower and damage lives far worse than covid, imo.
What I see is ideological clash with reality. Eggheads in the lab know a lockdown would work. They just cannot accept that it can't be functionally implemented. Many people opposed to lockdowns do everything they can to discredit then, because of this perverse need to "be morally right", they ignore the cases like Taiwan, so that they dont have to say "a body count is required. I accept this.". And so round and round we go with the "draconian measures won't work" and "you're heartless and need to stay home" rhetoric from either side.
Then there's those of us who are just watching and throwing our .02 in because **** it, why not? Lol
Taiwan is also MUCH smaller than the U.S. But you're right, a Taiwan-type lockdown won't fly here. [I know I'm gonna take flak for this analogy, but.....] Same as the gun control argument: in a society 100% completely without guns you will see gun violence plummet. As an American and enjoying the freedoms we have, would you want to live in the previously mentioned society? Paraphrasing the famous quote, "There is a price for liberties". (or something to that effect)
@mods you are letting fringe individuals drag this board into a cesspool and at this point, mandatory SSO reporting for some of the views shared. This is not the “start a revolution” forum. GD was closed once, maybe it needs to go away again for a while.
Ah yes, the freedom loving crowd are basically nazis and should be censored for hate speech card because I don’t like what they say.
Very original.
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Yeah...once you leave two-lane blacktop, it's 16 miles of very remote and lonely dirt road to get here. We know you're coming long before you get here......
Reminds me of this story out of the smokies.
https://zerogov.com/2017/01/24/quill-rose-and-the-quiet-insurrection-by-john-meyers/
"Seymour Calhoun, son of the famous Granville Calhoun recounted a story of Rose being barricaded on his homestead by federal revenue enforcers. Quill reportedly came out with hands in the air at the demands of the revenue officers. Quill said he would go with them, but the officers would not make it home alive as his brother Jake has already set ambushes on the trail out and is set to waylay the party if anyone attempted to do any arresting that day. After studying about the most pragmatic course of action to take, the revenue men bought a gallon of whiskey from Quill and bid him good day and hurried back to their base at Bryson City hoping they would not be cut down on the road."
Taiwan solved the problem with a lockdown. Thing was, theirs was utter and complete and very robust in tracing etc. Ergo, it wasn't very long either. That cannot and would not fly here in America. It did and does work though, it's just not in line with our ideology. People pushing for lockdowns need to understand that and to accept that even if a government lockdown is issued, it will be ineffective and just waste manpower and damage lives far worse than covid, imo.
What I see is ideological clash with reality. Eggheads in the lab know a lockdown would work. They just cannot accept that it can't be functionally implemented. Many people opposed to lockdowns do everything they can to discredit then, because of this perverse need to "be morally right", they ignore the cases like Taiwan, so that they dont have to say "a body count is required. I accept this.". And so round and round we go with the "draconian measures won't work" and "you're heartless and need to stay home" rhetoric from either side.
Then there's those of us who are just watching and throwing our .02 in because **** it, why not? Lol
It’s weird how those same eggheads don’t speak up and vehemently promote draconian initiatives like banning McDonald’s and other fast food establishments in an effort to curb the obesity and diabetes epidemic facing this country. As those otherwise preventable issues costs more lives annually than Covid ever will.
Make it about a virus and things turn into pure idiocy.
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Reminds me of this story out of the smokies.
https://zerogov.com/2017/01/24/quill-rose-and-the-quiet-insurrection-by-john-meyers/
"Seymour Calhoun, son of the famous Granville Calhoun recounted a story of Rose being barricaded on his homestead by federal revenue enforcers. Quill reportedly came out with hands in the air at the demands of the revenue officers. Quill said he would go with them, but the officers would not make it home alive as his brother Jake has already set ambushes on the trail out and is set to waylay the party if anyone attempted to do any arresting that day. After studying about the most pragmatic course of action to take, the revenue men bought a gallon of whiskey from Quill and bid him good day and hurried back to their base at Bryson City hoping they would not be cut down on the road."
"Copperhead Road"
It’s weird how those same eggheads don’t speak up and vehemently promote draconian initiatives like banning McDonald’s and other fast food establishments in an effort to curb the obesity and diabetes epidemic facing this country. As those otherwise preventable issues costs more lives annually than Covid ever will.
Make it about a virus and things turn into pure idiocy.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's asking a lot. I'd just like them to actually come out and admit that diet and exercise make a huge difference. And to post what people die from when they die. Hearing a 25 year old died scares people. Hearing a 25 year old obese alcoholic died is a completely different story
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Out of curiosity, has there been research concerning any of the extreme cases being psychosomatic considering the play up?
Out of curiosity, has there been research concerning any of the extreme cases being psychosomatic considering the play up?
If you get hit hard with COVID I don't think there are any psych issues involved with the clinical symptoms. Those hit hard end up being a train wreck to varying degrees. Does a positive attitude help? Sure, it can't hurt, but it is what it is.
If you get hit hard with COVID I don't think there are any psych issues involved with the clinical symptoms. Those hit hard end up being a train wreck to varying degrees. Does a positive attitude help? Sure, it can't hurt, but it is what it is.
I understand some get very sick and some die, but I do have to wonder if any of the play up doesn't play a role with the experience of the...more impressionable? Mental stress can have an impact on the body and there is a major focus on the extreme negative outcomes rather than the average.
What caused my curiosity was recalling story(linked below) I read about in high school, sensations from amputated limbs, pain killer addiction via the mind creating pain that is no longer there, and (one of my favorites) old women in poor health when their prostate starts causing them problems after hearing of the symptoms from a human that actually has one.
https://www.deseret.com/2004/1/5/19804683/strange-but-true-loud-drips-can-scare-you-to-death
I understand some get very sick and some die, but I do have to wonder if any of the play up doesn't play a role with the experience of the...more impressionable? Mental stress can have an impact on the body and there is a major focus on the extreme negative outcomes rather than the average.
What caused my curiosity was recalling story(linked below) I read about in high school, sensations from amputated limbs, pain killer addiction via the mind creating pain that is no longer there, and (one of my favorites) old women in poor health when their prostate starts causing them problems after hearing of the symptoms from a human that actually has one.
https://www.deseret.com/2004/1/5/19804683/strange-but-true-loud-drips-can-scare-you-to-death
Maybe nonexistent for diagnosed Covid cases but there has absolutely been an uptick in mental health and substance abuse related diagnoses, hospitalizations, and deaths. So the second and third order affects are impacting a ton more people than just the China flu is.
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It’s weird how those same eggheads don’t speak up and vehemently promote draconian initiatives like banning McDonald’s and other fast food establishments in an effort to curb the obesity and diabetes epidemic facing this country. As those otherwise preventable issues costs more lives annually than Covid ever will.
Make it about a virus and things turn into pure idiocy.
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Acute vs. Chronic, and psychological effects of both. There is no mystery.
Maybe nonexistent for diagnosed Covid cases but there has absolutely been an uptick in mental health and substance abuse related diagnoses, hospitalizations, and deaths. So the second and third order affects are impacting a ton more people than just the China flu is.
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Maybe...maybe not...it will be decades before we know the 2nd and 3rd order of effects, but I am inclined to agree that ultimately, they may well lower quality of life as a whole vs covid, in many ways.
If you get hit hard with COVID I don't think there are any psych issues involved with the clinical symptoms. Those hit hard end up being a train wreck to varying degrees. Does a positive attitude help? Sure, it can't hurt, but it is what it is.
There are. It's a thing. Not in all cases obviously, but covid psychosis is a thing. Here is literature on it, and, anecdotally, I agree that it exists, to some degree or another, but that it is also hard to separate it from icu psychosis or simply a reaction to diagnosis and symptoms/treatment or isolation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7236749/
Acute vs. Chronic, and psychological effects of both. There is no mystery.
But a life, is a life, is a life.... if we can save even one it’s worth it.
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But a life, is a life, is a life.... if we can save even one it’s worth it.
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Ummm...huh?
Maybe if it were...4 lives...you'd be more incensed?
I seem to recall a ton of angst from you about Benghazi.
Maybe we can agree that we need to do our due diligence, within the frameworks of our constitution, to protect ourselves and those around us...whether in a war on terror or a war on sickness and death from a virus.
Tell me, if you could prevent benghazi by having worn a mask and washing your hands and a little social distancing...would ya?
I'm not even implying you or anyone should do anything...except to understand and accept fact and data and experience. I'm sharing some good ideas, backed by personal experience and lab data, but I'm certainly not advocating you follow this, that's up to you, but please, spare me your clinically uninvolved 3rd party rhetoric.
Ummm...huh?
Maybe if it were...4 lives...you'd be more incensed?
I seem to recall a ton of angst from you about Benghazi.
Maybe we can agree that we need to do our due diligence, within the frameworks of our constitution, to protect ourselves and those around us...whether in a war on terror or a war on sickness and death from a virus.
Tell me, if you could prevent benghazi by having worn a mask and washing your hands and a little social distancing...would ya?
I'm not even implying you or anyone should do anything...except to understand and accept fact and data and experience. I'm sharing some good ideas, backed by personal experience and lab data, but I'm certainly not advocating you follow this, that's up to you, but please, spare me your clinically uninvolved 3rd party rhetoric.
Im aggravated over the hypocrisy of it all and the total lack of perspective relative to other leading but otherwise preventable causes of death in this country.
But the crux of the matter is the demonization of persons not going along with the group think based edicts and being excoriated for refusing to comply with knee jerk mandates, as if opposing them suggests an egregious lack of empathy or love for our fellow man when it’s literally the complete opposite.
Individualism is more important than collectivism as far as I’m concerned, period. Want to wear a mask? Fine. Don’t want to? Fine. Government getting involved and decimating private enterprise or otherwise trying to dictate individual choice is a no go.
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Averageman
11-19-20, 23:08
Ummm...huh?
I'm not even implying you or anyone should do anything...except to understand and accept fact and data and experience. I'm sharing some good ideas, backed by personal experience and lab data, but I'm certainly not advocating you follow this, that's up to you, but please, spare me your clinically uninvolved 3rd party rhetoric.
Just speaking for myself;
As soon a Fauci did the whole "Mask, No Mask", I tuned out, only to occasionally pop up to take another look. Guess what it didn't get any better from the MSM.
My Son and I started seeing this last November, spoke about it at Christmas and adjusted our lives and moved on. Part of that adjustment was losing weight, taking vitamins and exercise.
I don't wear a mask, I drink four or so beers a day and I spend more time than I should sitting down, but honestly, I'm not worried.
Anybody wanting to have an honest and sincere conversation with me about wearing a mask, COVID-19 or how I might infect others, might want to go personally deliver a kick to Dr Fauci's nut sack first, because due to his BS, all of that is Static now to a lot of us.
It went political immediately, it's still a political football and it will remain so for likely another year.
If you want an honest Scientific opinion, you can't allow it to be funded by political dollars, if you want a Scientific opinion you have to fund it with .gov money.
Im aggravated over the hypocrisy of it all and the total lack of perspective relative to other leading but otherwise preventable causes of death in this country.
But the crux of the matter is the demonization of persons not going along with the group think based edicts and being excoriated for refusing to comply with knee jerk mandates, as if opposing them suggests an egregious lack of empathy or love for our fellow man when it’s literally the complete opposite.
Individualism is more important than collectivism as far as I’m concerned, period. Want to wear a mask? Fine. Don’t want to? Fine. Government getting involved and decimating private enterprise or otherwise trying to dictate individual choice is a no go.
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I c an get on board with that.
Just speaking for myself;
As soon a Fauci did the whole "Mask, No Mask", I tuned out, only to occasionally pop up to take another look. Guess what it didn't get any better from the MSM.
My Son and I started seeing this last November, spoke about it at Christmas and adjusted our lives and moved on. Part of that adjustment was losing weight, taking vitamins and exercise.
I don't wear a mask, I drink four or so beers a day and I spend more time than I should sitting down, but honestly, I'm not worried.
Anybody wanting to have an honest and sincere conversation with me about wearing a mask, COVID-19 or how I might infect others, might want to go personally deliver a kick to Dr Fauci nut sack first, because due to his BS, all of that is Static now to a lot of us.
I am suspicious Fauci et al said no masks just so hospitals could stock up before people panic bought them all. Just my hunch. I'm not a fan of Fauci. Ivory tower bitch, imo
Averageman
11-19-20, 23:25
I am suspicious Fauci et al said no masks just so hospitals could stock up before people panic bought them all. Just my hunch. I'm not a fan of Fauci. Ivory tower bitch, imo
People were delivering personal stocks of masks they had at home to medical facilities for goodness sakes.
Now, I'm pretty sure that you just can't show up with PPE at a Hospital or Clinic give them a dozen boxes of gloves and masks and they are going to actually use them.
People were delivering personal stocks of masks they had at home to medical facilities for goodness sakes.
Now, I'm pretty sure that you just can't show up with PPE at a Hospital or Clinic give them a dozen boxes of gloves and masks and they are going to actually use them.
A lot of us spent the money to buy Airboss etc for work. I just said **** it I'll die, whatever, tbh. Not spending my own money on PPE. I'm past giving a **** and never was one for moral superiority or guilt arguments. So if they run out, whatever. No mask for me I guess. I just want others to have ability to make informed choices. That's all. You won't find me in the bathroom making whiny tictocs.
This thread has certainly turned into a catfight.
The facts are pretty clear - Covid is surging in the US and Europe again. The spread in India has not slowed and is accelerating after Diwali. Latin America is not looking too good and North Africa is being reported as a new hot spot.
We are tired of restrictions, lockdowns, isolation, and politicization of the pandemic.
Unfortunately, the holidays will accelerate the spread and drive greater restrictions. No matter what their political leaning, people are booking flights and fueling their cars to visit friends and family on the other side of the country or the world.
Increased spread of COVID will drive shutdowns.
We won't see the end of restrictions until vaccines are widely available and enough people are immunized to cause isolated pockets of COVID. Unfortunately, we are probably looking at April/May before COVID starts to be contained and June/July to begin returning to normal, whatever the new normal is.
Andy
This thread has certainly turned into a catfight.
The facts are pretty clear - Covid is surging in the US and Europe again. The spread in India has not slowed and is accelerating after Diwali. Latin America is not looking too good and North Africa is being reported as a new hot spot.
We are tired of restrictions, lockdowns, isolation, and politicization of the pandemic.
Unfortunately, the holidays will accelerate the spread and drive greater restrictions. No matter what their political leaning, people are booking flights and fueling their cars to visit friends and family on the other side of the country or the world.
Increased spread of COVID will drive shutdowns.
We won't see the end of restrictions until vaccines are widely available and enough people are immunized to cause isolated pockets of COVID. Unfortunately, we are probably looking at April/May before COVID starts to be contained and June/July to begin returning to normal, whatever the new normal is.
Andy
Sensible analysis. I agree.
ChattanoogaPhil
11-20-20, 05:23
During the Covid task force press briefing yesterday Fauci was preaching no lockdowns required and CDC Redfield was advocating to keep schools open.
Business_Casual
11-20-20, 06:33
So we had a lockdown 6 months ago. It went longer than the advertised "two weeks" in most places (to include TN). Yet here we are again with a resurgence. The virus didn't go away and is not going to go away. The question was asked if the cure was worse than the disease. So you wreck the greatest economy in the world, and the virus is still there lurking afterwards. Sure, the vaccines will help once they come on line. Then we may start to see a receding spread. However, if you essentially destroy the economy it doesn't just pop right back to where it was.
Instead, a failed economy ushers in something that will NEVER go away and has ramifications far exceeding what COVID will do; in fact, nothing short of a highly contagious Ebola-type scourge could inflict the kind of long-term damage that instituting socialism would. Yes, we on this site may be "enlightened" and swear we'd tough it out and persevere through an uber Great Depression but I will guaran-freaking-tee you the vast majority of our idiotic population would be begging and clamoring for .gov to come to the rescue.
Prudence is the key. Lockdowns didn't go swimmingly well the first time with temporary and dubious "success" at combatting the virus but sure as hell kicked this economy in the balls, and it still hasn't recovered......but COVID did.
Except the only place everyone went was the grocery store. How come all the workers there aren’t dead? We didn’t get mask mandates until well after the lock down started. Also, what does “cases” mean? If the PCR test is flawed, there is no reason to count cases. Help me understand what virus 🦠 is impacting us?
Im aggravated over the hypocrisy of it all and the total lack of perspective relative to other leading but otherwise preventable causes of death in this country.
But the crux of the matter is the demonization of persons not going along with the group think based edicts and being excoriated for refusing to comply with knee jerk mandates, as if opposing them suggests an egregious lack of empathy or love for our fellow man when it’s literally the complete opposite.
Individualism is more important than collectivism as far as I’m concerned, period. Want to wear a mask? Fine. Don’t want to? Fine. Government getting involved and decimating private enterprise or otherwise trying to dictate individual choice is a no go.
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And any .gov/.med/.biz alliance has frequently had some issues when it comes to who actually benefits vs. who gets to lose.
PracticalRifleman
11-20-20, 08:45
Im aggravated over the hypocrisy of it all and the total lack of perspective relative to other leading but otherwise preventable causes of death in this country.
The other leading causes of death are predictable and consistent and not leading to a shortage of ICU beds. It isn’t so much that we must keep everybody alive, or in the instances you keep referencing—protect people from themselves, but when an ICU has a 50 bed capacity and it’s full with COVID patients on vents, when you get T-boned by a drunk driver, you’re going to die. Dad’s treatable heart-attack becomes fatal, and your wife’s ruptured appendix kills her because there are no vents to use to operate.
I suppose we could completely reverse course and turn medical practice upside down and we could collectively refuse to treat COVID patients, who want to be treated, because they have comorbidities. Then we get into playing god and refusing service. Perhaps that becomes the precedent and we start refusing other patients to. And then COVID death rates can climb from 1% to 10 or 15%. Currently, of COVID cases requiring hospitalization, 30-40% require critical care.
People really like to tout the sub-1% death rate, but remember, it is only so low because people are working their ass off to keep them alive. It requires an amazing amount of resources. The same is true of all diseases. But here we are, the hospital systems are being overwhelmed and you want to talk about political rhetoric. Kind of reminds me of college kids protesting war and bashing soldiers who are there protecting their right to do so.
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Except the only place everyone went was the grocery store. How come all the workers there aren’t dead? We didn’t get mask mandates until well after the lock down started. Also, what does “cases” mean? If the PCR test is flawed, there is no reason to count cases. Help me understand what virus 🦠 is impacting us?
Unless you are speaking rhetorically I think we're in agreement.
People were delivering personal stocks of masks they had at home to medical facilities for goodness sakes.
Now, I'm pretty sure that you just can't show up with PPE at a Hospital or Clinic give them a dozen boxes of gloves and masks and they are going to actually use them.
The GF has made hundreds of masks at this point which were needed by a large PD close by, shipped off to a mil base, Indian reservation, and hospitals, all asking for masks. PPE seems to have gotten way better for most, but requests still happening.
The other leading causes of death are predictable and consistent and not leading to a shortage of ICU beds. It isn’t so much that we must keep everybody alive, or in the instances you keep referencing—protect people from themselves, but when an ICU has a 50 bed capacity and it’s full with COVID patients on vents, when you get T-boned by a drunk driver, you’re going to die. Dad’s treatable heart-attack becomes fatal, and your wife’s ruptured appendix kills her because there are no vents to use to operate.
I suppose we could completely reverse course and turn medical practice upside down and we could collectively refuse to treat COVID patients, who want to be treated, because they have comorbidities. Then we get into playing god and refusing service. Perhaps that becomes the precedent and we start refusing other patients to. And then COVID death rates can climb from 1% to 10 or 15%. Currently, of COVID cases requiring hospitalization, 30-40% require critical care.
People really like to tout the sub-1% death rate, but remember, it is only so low because people are working their ass off to keep them alive. It requires an amazing amount of resources. The same is true of all diseases. But here we are, the hospital systems are being overwhelmed and you want to talk about political rhetoric. Kind of reminds me of college kids protesting war and bashing soldiers who are there protecting their right to do so.
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Considering the plethora of false positives, false negatives , and misleading/lying being done on listing cause of death as well as tracking of where cases allegedly track back to, why should we believe any of it without question?
For the comparison at the end, there have been numerous instances where municipalities have violated freedom of speech and other rights. I can find where the victim has hired an attorney to argue on their behalf, some doing it pro bono, but I have honestly not seen a member of the US military (in any official capacity at least) become involved. I am interested in that though so please link me to the story.
Steve Shannon
11-20-20, 09:25
The other leading causes of death are predictable and consistent and not leading to a shortage of ICU beds. It isn’t so much that we must keep everybody alive, or in the instances you keep referencing—protect people from themselves, but when an ICU has a 50 bed capacity and it’s full with COVID patients on vents, when you get T-boned by a drunk driver, you’re going to die. Dad’s treatable heart-attack becomes fatal, and your wife’s ruptured appendix kills her because there are no vents to use to operate.
I suppose we could completely reverse course and turn medical practice upside down and we could collectively refuse to treat COVID patients, who want to be treated, because they have comorbidities. Then we get into playing god and refusing service. Perhaps that becomes the precedent and we start refusing other patients to. And then COVID death rates can climb from 1% to 10 or 15%. Currently, of COVID cases requiring hospitalization, 30-40% require critical care.
People really like to tout the sub-1% death rate, but remember, it is only so low because people are working their ass off to keep them alive. It requires an amazing amount of resources. The same is true of all diseases. But here we are, the hospital systems are being overwhelmed and you want to talk about political rhetoric. Kind of reminds me of college kids protesting war and bashing soldiers who are there protecting their right to do so.
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Very well explained. Thank you.
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PracticalRifleman
11-20-20, 09:27
Considering the plethora of false positives, false negatives , and misleading/lying being done on listing cause of death as well as tracking of where cases allegedly track back to, why should we believe any of it without question?
For the comparison at the end, there have been numerous instances where municipalities have violated freedom of speech and other rights. I can find where the victim has hired an attorney to argue on their behalf, some doing it pro bono, but I have honestly not seen a member of the US military (in any official capacity at least) become involved. I am interested in that though so please link me to the story.
You can’t see the forest for the trees. Rhetoric is irrelevant. Rome is burning and you’re here talking about smoke detectors failing.
THE HOSPITALS ARE AT MAX CAPACITY! It doesn’t matter if there are false positives or false negatives.
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You can’t see the forest for the trees. Rhetoric is irrelevant. Rome is burning and you’re here talking about smoke detectors failing.
THE HOSPITALS ARE AT MAX CAPACITY! It doesn’t matter if there are false positives or false negatives.
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You used rhetoric as an appeal to emotion, not me.
Out of curiosity, why have the pharmaceutical companies sought and received indemnification if their vaccines and up harming anyone?
The other leading causes of death are predictable and consistent and not leading to a shortage of ICU beds. It isn’t so much that we must keep everybody alive, or in the instances you keep referencing—protect people from themselves, but when an ICU has a 50 bed capacity and it’s full with COVID patients on vents, when you get T-boned by a drunk driver, you’re going to die. Dad’s treatable heart-attack becomes fatal, and your wife’s ruptured appendix kills her because there are no vents to use to operate.
I suppose we could completely reverse course and turn medical practice upside down and we could collectively refuse to treat COVID patients, who want to be treated, because they have comorbidities. Then we get into playing god and refusing service. Perhaps that becomes the precedent and we start refusing other patients to. And then COVID death rates can climb from 1% to 10 or 15%. Currently, of COVID cases requiring hospitalization, 30-40% require critical care.
People really like to tout the sub-1% death rate, but remember, it is only so low because people are working their ass off to keep them alive. It requires an amazing amount of resources. The same is true of all diseases. But here we are, the hospital systems are being overwhelmed and you want to talk about political rhetoric. Kind of reminds me of college kids protesting war and bashing soldiers who are there protecting their right to do so.
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That’s my entire point. There is zero moral equivalency because some lives are in fact more equal than others and as you stated with respect to “predictability” people sleep easier if deaths (no matter how preventable” follow some sort of plan. That’s hypocrisy.
But these are the same people proclaiming we must do something about gun control if it saves just one kids life from a school getting shot up.
And yet These are also the same people who have ended the lives of tens of MILLIONS via abortion and did/do so gleefully because a woman’s right to choose and it’s her body her choice is more important than dead children.
And now here we are doing the same song and dance because if we can save just one life from Covid it’s worth any and all draconian lockdown or mask mandate BS.
That doesn’t fly.
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ChattanoogaPhil
11-20-20, 09:50
According to this tracking site the number hospitalized has been rising dramatically in the last few weeks. Oct 19, 38,000. November 19, 81,000. Record high.
https://covidtracking.com/data/national
PracticalRifleman
11-20-20, 09:53
You used rhetoric as an appeal to emotion, not me.
Out of curiosity, why have the pharmaceutical companies sought and received indemnification if their vaccines and up harming anyone?
No, no rhetoric. Those are the facts. We have critical care units that are overwhelmed. Period. In my region there are zero critical care beds available. In fact, they are in the process of converting non-critical care beds without central monitoring into critical care beds. This means those beds are down during the conversion.
ER beds are being used for critical care and they have started setting up tents outside the hospital for ER patients.
Talking about false-positives and pharmaceutical companies doesn’t solve anything. You and JP have yet to collectively provide a coherent acknowledgment of the issue at hand, nor have you offered any sort of solution.
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Business_Casual
11-20-20, 10:01
No, no rhetoric. Those are the facts. We have critical care units that are overwhelmed. Period. In my region there are zero critical care beds available. In fact, they are in the process of converting non-critical care beds without central monitoring into critical care beds. This means those beds are down during the conversion.
ER beds are being used for critical care and they have started setting up tents outside the hospital for ER patients.
Talking about false-positives and pharmaceutical companies doesn’t solve anything. You and JP have yet to collectively provide a coherent acknowledgment of the issue at hand, nor have you offered any sort of solution.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201120/3eb75b1954a1c06e0aa7df57556dd7c5.jpg
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Interesting, they didn’t confirm your story.
https://www.sehealth.org/
No, no rhetoric. Those are the facts. We have critical care units that are overwhelmed. Period. In my region there are zero critical care beds available. In fact, they are in the process of converting non-critical care beds without central monitoring into critical care beds. This means those beds are down during the conversion.
ER beds are being used for critical care and they have started setting up tents outside the hospital for ER patients.
Talking about false-positives and pharmaceutical companies doesn’t solve anything. You and JP have yet to collectively provide a coherent acknowledgment of the issue at hand, nor have you offered any sort of solution.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201120/3eb75b1954a1c06e0aa7df57556dd7c5.jpg
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False positives and other issues need to be talked about since they are being used to justify trampling of liberties.
Once again, why did pharma seek and receive indemnity on this? Anyone else worrying about being remotely financially stable is selfish so that seems an odd move from one of the members off the altruistic side.
PracticalRifleman
11-20-20, 10:07
That’s my entire point. There is zero moral equivalency because some lives are in fact more equal than others and as you stated with respect to “predictability” people sleep easier if deaths (no matter how preventable” follow some sort of plan. That’s hypocrisy.
But these are the same people proclaiming we must do something about gun control if it saves just one kids life from a school getting shot up.
And yet These are also the same people who have ended the lives of tens of MILLIONS via abortion and did/do so gleefully because a woman’s right to choose and it’s her body her choice is more important than dead children.
And now here we are doing the same song and dance because if we can save just one life from Covid it’s worth any and all draconian lockdown or mask mandate BS.
That doesn’t fly.
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You really aren’t listening, are you? It seems you’re using this discussion to air your distaste of unrelated political positions. This has nothing to do with abortion or gun control. Stop trying to muddy the waters.
I want you to read the following carefully, walk away, think about it for two or three days, and then respond:
All the other sick people don’t rush to the hospital in such a way that overwhelms they system. The system is being overwhelmed. Are you suggesting “tough luck” and ignore the problem?
Having COVID doesn’t and should not preclude you from care. Hospitals treat on first come, first serve. The patient can and should direct their care. Are you suggesting, for whatever twisted reason in your head, hospitals ration care? Are you suggesting we, as a society, stop treating patients wanting and needing care “just in case” others may need treatment?
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PracticalRifleman
11-20-20, 10:10
False positives and other issues need to be talked about since they are being used to justify trampling of liberties.
Once again, why did pharma seek and receive indemnity on this? Anyone else worrying about being remotely financially stable is selfish so that seems an odd move from one of the members off the altruistic side.
Again, the hospital system is failing as we speak. False positives have zero bearing on that. Numbers don’t matter...we are out of critical care beds.
Dirty little secret for you, there is an equal likelihood of a false negative, since you’re so caught up on irrelevant information.
How about I set your house on fire, prohibit your from calling 911 and talk about how crummy your smoke detectors are? That’s what you’re doing here.
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PracticalRifleman
11-20-20, 10:12
Interesting, they didn’t confirm your story.
https://www.sehealth.org/
https://www.kfvs12.com/2020/11/16/southeasthealth-sets-up-tent-treat-non-emergency-non-covid-patients/
You mean if they don’t acknowledge it on their webpage means it isn’t happening? [emoji23]
Funny, it’s in the paper, on the news and was confirmed by those I know working there.
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Again, the hospital system is failing as we speak. False positives have zero bearing on that. Numbers don’t matter...we are out of critical care beds.
Dirty little secret for you, there is an equal likelihood of a false negative, since you’re so caught up on irrelevant information.
How about I set your house on fire, prohibit your from calling 911 and talk about how crummy your smoke detectors are? That’s what you’re doing here.
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Why don't you want to touch the question about the health care industry not wanting to potentially face the fate many other businesses have already taken the brunt of? Does that mean if they hadn't been endemnified and couldn't turn a major profit on this they were willing to die out of spite?
Business_Casual
11-20-20, 10:23
https://www.kfvs12.com/2020/11/16/southeasthealth-sets-up-tent-treat-non-emergency-non-covid-patients/
You mean if they don’t acknowledge it on their webpage means it isn’t happening? [emoji23]
Funny, it’s in the paper, on the news and was confirmed by those I know working there.
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Ah, my friend said so. I see.
PracticalRifleman
11-20-20, 10:25
Why don't you want to touch the question about the health care industry not wanting to potentially face the fate many other businesses have already taken the brunt of? Does that mean if they hadn't been endemnified and couldn't turn a major profit on this they were willing to die out of spite?
What are you even talking about? What does your statement have to do with being out of beds and not being able to treat sick patients?
The last day I worked, we began tearing down walls and eliminated the decon area to expand the COVID ward at my institution. Every bed with central monitoring had an ICU COVID+ patient in it as well as half a dozen without central monitoring. The ER was full, 3/4 of them being COVID+, another 20+ waiting to make it to the ER, and not a single ICU bed between Memphis and Saint Louis empty.
The house is on fire. Instead of putting out the fire, you’re here talking about the smoke detector and the blaming the wiring.
Why don’t you try being helpful for a change? Why don’t you try to address the actual problem threatening our country? Even if we assume all your bullshit is true, it still doesn’t solve the problem.
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PracticalRifleman
11-20-20, 10:26
Ah, my friend said so. I see.
So you’re going to tell me the news article is a lie, driving by it I don’t actually see it, and my colleagues there are lying?
Good strategy. Go back to your Alex Jones, dude.
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