View Full Version : Failure to pivot and adapt. Ruger vs. Browning, Winchester etc....
FlyingHunter
11-17-20, 18:38
In my younger years, the predominant rifles in the gun store were Winchester, Remington, and if you were in a different tax bracket Browning. I had humble beginnings and was only able to afford .22's and I was grateful to the local gun store for directing me to the Ruger 10/22 and later the Mark 1 pistol (disassembly was easy, reassembly was just short of rocket science). I find it interesting to reflect on what had to be pivotal business decisions that ultimately have left Remington bankrupt, Winchester and Browning rarely seen in the hands of current shooters, but Ruger seemingly still relevant. I'm aware of some serious early missteps that put Ruger squarely in the FUDD category but they had leadership evolution which adapted to current market preferences. This reminds of a smart business quote: The pessimist says the wind is blowing the wrong way, the optimist says hopefully it will change direction but leaders simply adjust the sails.
PracticalRifleman
11-17-20, 19:09
Browning seems to be in the hands of a great few hunters these days. I walk into the local stores and there are racks of Browning’s latest “Hell’s Canyon” or some other marketing name with fancy paint and a camouflage stock.
Winchester’s budget line is quite common around here, but the model 70 is rare.
700s were common up until the last month, but the 780 whatever budget bolt-action was everywhere.
But the biggest sellers seem to be Salvage, Mossberg, and whatever sub-$350 budget gun the sales guys are pushing at this time. Many guys order in Tikka, CZ, and Howa.
The guys with cash order Coopers, Christiansen Arms, and Weatherby Mark Vs.
It seems to me, the smart money is on thirty-year-old Remington 700 ADLs in the classifieds and used racks that can be had for $350-$400 that may need a trigger job, good cleaning, and a stock upgrade if anything. If it still won’t shoot, a new barrel still puts you under the expensive guns and you’ll end up with a superior rifle.
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Straight Shooter
11-17-20, 20:00
I have truly mourned the loss of Remington, for years. Its just a damned shame what they let themselves become.
The old store brand guns...Western Auto, Sears, JC Higgins , Springfield ect, were awesome.
I laughed at what you said about re-assembly of the Mark 1 Ruger pistol, it was indeed "rocket science"...until the day I became a "rocket scientist" & learned "the trick"...easy peasy ever since.
We adored the M700's in 22-250, .243, & 30-06 was King.
Savage's were WELL loved & sought after.
My first gun was a 10/22...back in about '73-'74. Learned to take it down by myself sans any manual, or other resource, which was just manuals at that time!
I consider the Ruger .22 pistols to be best on the market..Ive owned several. Had a Government Target Model that even to this day, was the single most accurate firearm I ever shot. That thing was unreal accurate.
We called the old red box Federal .22"s " dollar a box match ammo", because it .99 cents a box, was absolutely Match accurate for a few rounds..until the flyer came outta nowhere. Ive seen groups shot with that red box stuff that were simply unreal. Had a Marlin 2000 bolt target rifle that shot them into one hole waaay out there.
Always wondered why Ruger didnt improve the Mini-14.
Rugers were affordable- and after that curmudgeon Bill died, the company seemed to get better.
PracticalRifleman is correct...those 30 year old M700's are the stuff. I said in a recent thread here the old M700 Varmints were unreal accurate, as well as my old M788 24".243...I asked a Remington CEO at the NRA Convention back in 2005 why didnt they bring back the M788, & was it due to the FACT they were as accurate as the M700 for less money?
He laughed it off and just said something about "too expensive to manufactue today"...but all things being equal, it wasnt back then?
Brownins were rare in my TN neck of the woods. People bought a few when they came out with the gimmicky BOSS muzzle thingy, but that was a fad. I used a Winchester M88 lever in .243 for decades to kill many deer & varmints.
All these $2500-$3000 are a mystery to me.
People bought a few when they came out with the gimmicky BOSS muzzle thingy, but that was a fad.
I had forgotten about those. Wasn't the claim that you could adjust the barrel harmonics to get the best out of any kind of ammunition? If it actually worked it seems like a good idea. Was it bogus?
PracticalRifleman
11-17-20, 20:31
I had forgotten about those. Wasn't the claim that you could adjust the barrel harmonics to get the best out of any kind of ammunition? If it actually worked it seems like a good idea. Was it bogus?
Timers are a real thing and do work, but I don’t know if the BOSS does. Look at Erik Cortina.
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Ruger is still kinda Fudd territory. BUT they are still relevant and selling well because...
> Ruger 10/22s are still pretty much unbeatable, and they haven't managed to destroy them a'la Remington and the 700/870 fiascos
> Their revolvers are still pretty great, and once again, they have managed to not totally destroy them
>Their semi-auto pistols, while bleh in the face of market saturation by superior guns near the same price point, are still at least generally usable, compared to the abortions Remington attempted to cash in on and compared to other similar offerings in the price bracket, and all the new CCW'ers will buy them as Black Friday specials.
> For some weird reason, the average buyer thinks the Ruger 556 AR is something special, and ARs are never not desirable, so they're still hanging in there with that market.
>Nobody gives a #$!+ about bolt guns anymore except hunters and precision shooters. The hunters (on average) don't give a crap about buying a serious gun they are going to drag through brush, shoot once at under 100yds, then their kid is going to drop out of the deer stand. The serious LR guys are going to order out. Hence the plethora of overpriced Brownings sitting around, and el-cheapo gun+scope 'gunshop specials' selling consistently. Well wouldn't you know, Ruger generally hits both of those markets, at least in price point.
> The Ruger PCC. The fullsize option is...fuddly, and the 'pistol' version looks like an overweight stolen-valor Sten gun wannabe. But they're selling...because 10/22s are awesome and it's pretty much a 9mm 10/22, and it makes people feel like a safe comfy investment, is generally pretty reliable, oh, and it takes Glock mags. :laugh:
The rest of the Ruger lineup is pretty much irrelevant. But that's kind of my point here... they could drop all the 'dead weight', and roll with the hot items that appeal to almost every shooting niche listed here, and still be viable as a company. They could even destroy themselves in a couple categories here, and still make enough stuff people want, to survive.
The other guys listed in the OP never hit those broad market cross-sections, produced only one or two well-known desirable products that have stood the test of time into the current age (which is starting to fade), and without demand for those...
So, I guess IMHO, it has less to do with 'adapting' and more to do with "not f***ing up your desirable items" with a side dish of "provide enough long-term-desirable items to keep yourself afloat", paired with a glass of "don't try to adapt if you suck at it". :laugh:
Grand58742
11-17-20, 20:59
I think those that diversified their lines during the sunset of the AWB were the ones that were able to continue forward. Facing facts, the AR market destroyed the bolt action realm to an extent as new calibers and options started coming out. Hunters learned they can (and do) use a form of the -15 or -10 platform for the job and have more flexibility for caliber changes that might have necessitated buying a complete new rifle before.
I don't necessarily count Browning into that area since they've been a "boutique" manufacturing division of FN since probably the early to mid 80s or so. People didn't buy Browning rifles, shotguns or HP pistols when cheaper Savage rifles, Remington and Mossberg shotties and Wonder-Nine pistols flooded the market. They bought the Browning name or bought a HP to customize it.
Winchester was a unique creature that stood on its name for far longer than maybe it should have. But I am glad FN bought the name and still has the products coming to market if only for the nostalgic value of a Model 70.
The path was simple though. Those that downsized the bolt action/hunting areas and moved manufacturing into market trends did far better than the ones who tried to be "traditional" and didn't evolve.
Companies like Ruger and CZ have adapted well and kept innovating. From bolt actions to ARs or modern sporting rifles to respectable defensive pistols in both wheel gun (in Ruger's case) and automatic variety, they have kept ahead of market trends and, more importantly, kept prices down for the most part. I think they both saw the sunset on the bolt action market coming down and started moving towards the modern sporting rifle at just the right time. They still offer quality in the bolt realm, but I doubt they are making as much money off that as they are the other areas.
Remington jumped into the MSR market far too late and their offerings were way pricier than they should have been. They focused more on the hunting aspect and didn't realize (or ignored) the market for regular shooters that wanted a cheaper AR. Folks weren't willing to pay over a grand for what they were offering just because Remington was on the receiver. That and not having a decent pistol line or failing out of the blocks like the R51. That should be a case study in how to completely destroy your credibility in the firearms world by hyping a product only to find it really, really sucks.
Kinda sad too since Remington really has weight in the firearms community over time.
Two more companies to add to your list are Mossberg and Savage. They are a unique position to sustain themselves, though I don't think the bolt action lines either offer will ever completely sustain them. There are markets they do well in (rimfire for example) and other product lines help sustain them, but they will have to start innovating soon else they will become the next victims of companies that are evolving.
Ruger is still kinda Fudd territory. BUT they are still relevant and selling well because...
> Ruger 10/22s are still pretty much unbeatable, and they haven't managed to destroy them a'la Remington and the 700/870 fiascos
> Their revolvers are still pretty great, and once again, they have managed to not totally destroy them
>Their semi-auto pistols, while bleh in the face of market saturation by superior guns near the same price point, are still at least generally usable, compared to the abortions Remington attempted to cash in on and compared to other similar offerings in the price bracket, and all the new CCW'ers will buy them as Black Friday specials.
> For some weird reason, the average buyer thinks the Ruger 556 AR is something special, and ARs are never not desirable, so they're still hanging in there with that market.
>Nobody gives a #$!+ about bolt guns anymore except hunters and precision shooters. The hunters (on average) don't give a crap about buying a serious gun they are going to drag through brush, shoot once at under 100yds, then their kid is going to drop out of the deer stand. The serious LR guys are going to order out. Hence the plethora of overpriced Brownings sitting around, and el-cheapo gun+scope 'gunshop specials' selling consistently. Well wouldn't you know, Ruger generally hits both of those markets, at least in price point.
> The Ruger PCC. The fullsize option is...fuddly, and the 'pistol' version looks like an overweight stolen-valor Sten gun wannabe. But they're selling...because 10/22s are awesome and it's pretty much a 9mm 10/22, and it makes people feel like a safe comfy investment, is generally pretty reliable, oh, and it takes Glock mags. [emoji23]
The rest of the Ruger lineup is pretty much irrelevant. But that's kind of my point here... they could drop all the 'dead weight', and roll with the hot items that appeal to almost every shooting niche listed here, and still be viable as a company. They could even destroy themselves in a couple categories here, and still make enough stuff people want, to survive.
The other guys listed in the OP never hit those broad market cross-sections, produced only one or two well-known desirable products that have stood the test of time into the current age (which is starting to fade), and without demand for those...
So, I guess IMHO, it has less to do with 'adapting' and more to do with "not f***ing up your desirable items" with a side dish of "provide enough long-term-desirable items to keep yourself afloat", paired with a glass of "don't try to adapt if you suck at it". [emoji23]I think Ruger has decent entry level firearms for budget minded people or those who are not firearms enthusiasts.
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PracticalRifleman
11-17-20, 21:42
I think those that diversified their lines during the sunset of the AWB were the ones that were able to continue forward. Facing facts, the AR market destroyed the bolt action realm to an extent as new calibers and options started coming out. Hunters learned they can (and do) use a form of the -15 or -10 platform for the job and have more flexibility for caliber changes that might have necessitated buying a complete new rifle before.
I don't necessarily count Browning into that area since they've been a "boutique" manufacturing division of FN since probably the early to mid 80s or so. People didn't buy Browning rifles, shotguns or HP pistols when cheaper Savage rifles, Remington and Mossberg shotties and Wonder-Nine pistols flooded the market. They bought the Browning name or bought a HP to customize it.
Winchester was a unique creature that stood on its name for far longer than maybe it should have. But I am glad FN bought the name and still has the products coming to market if only for the nostalgic value of a Model 70.
The path was simple though. Those that downsized the bolt action/hunting areas and moved manufacturing into market trends did far better than the ones who tried to be "traditional" and didn't evolve.
Companies like Ruger and CZ have adapted well and kept innovating. From bolt actions to ARs or modern sporting rifles to respectable defensive pistols in both wheel gun (in Ruger's case) and automatic variety, they have kept ahead of market trends and, more importantly, kept prices down for the most part. I think they both saw the sunset on the bolt action market coming down and started moving towards the modern sporting rifle at just the right time. They still offer quality in the bolt realm, but I doubt they are making as much money off that as they are the other areas.
Remington jumped into the MSR market far too late and their offerings were way pricier than they should have been. They focused more on the hunting aspect and didn't realize (or ignored) the market for regular shooters that wanted a cheaper AR. Folks weren't willing to pay over a grand for what they were offering just because Remington was on the receiver. That and not having a decent pistol line or failing out of the blocks like the R51. That should be a case study in how to completely destroy your credibility in the firearms world by hyping a product only to find it really, really sucks.
Kinda sad too since Remington really has weight in the firearms community over time.
Two more companies to add to your list are Mossberg and Savage. They are a unique position to sustain themselves, though I don't think the bolt action lines either offer will ever completely sustain them. There are markets they do well in (rimfire for example) and other product lines help sustain them, but they will have to start innovating soon else they will become the next victims of companies that are evolving.
While I often hunt with a semi-auto, that is not the norm in this area. From those I’ve seen at ranges zeroing or those I know at hunting camps, 70%+ shoot a bolt action and 20% use a lever-action and maybe 10% use a semi-auto.
In fact, when it comes to elk, I don’t think I’ve seen a single semi-auto in the mountains. Bolt-actions still do dominate the hunting world.
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I think Ruger has decent entry level firearms for budget minded people or those who are not firearms enthusiasts.
I have a good collection of Smith & Wesson revolvers, and I have a Ruger GP100 with a 6 inch barrel. A solid weapon I would not hesitate to use in a life or death situation - including as a club when I've used all six rounds.
I have a good collection of Smith & Wesson revolvers, and I have a Ruger GP100 with a 6 inch barrel. A solid weapon I would not hesitate to use in a life or death situation - including as a club when I've used all six rounds.I missed a good deal on a few used GP100s right before the lockdowns. I was tempted but not knowing what's going to happen I didn't want to just throw away that $325. Still have a 3in Security Six in 357 mag but that GP would have been a great beater to replace my highway patrolman
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I had forgotten about those. Wasn't the claim that you could adjust the barrel harmonics to get the best out of any kind of ammunition? If it actually worked it seems like a good idea. Was it bogus?
Similar idea (and cheap) so I may have to try one.
https://limbsaver.com/products/sharpshooter-x-ring-barrel-dampener
I have a good collection of Smith & Wesson revolvers, and I have a Ruger GP100 with a 6 inch barrel. A solid weapon I would not hesitate to use in a life or death situation - including as a club when I've used all six rounds.
I noticed this last week. The shortened ejector shroud gives a more streamlined look and still stronger than most others.
https://ruger.com/products/gp100/specSheets/1768.html
The best thing that ever happened to Ruger was the death of Bill Ruger. With him out of the way innovation and adjustments were allowed to take place. They changed from the budget hunting gun company to a modern relevant gun company. I’m a huge Browning fan but I’ve never cared for the A-bolt, and while they do have some innovative stuff they like to hold onto JMB’s legacy too much.
Grand58742
11-17-20, 23:42
While I often hunt with a semi-auto, that is not the norm in this area. From those I’ve seen at ranges zeroing or those I know at hunting camps, 70%+ shoot a bolt action and 20% use a lever-action and maybe 10% use a semi-auto.
In fact, when it comes to elk, I don’t think I’ve seen a single semi-auto in the mountains. Bolt-actions still do dominate the hunting world.
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Fair enough. I do think hunting as a sport is somewhat on the decline so I feel fewer rifles will be bought as a whole.
Didn't Ruger end up with part of Remington? IIRC there were like 7 different companies that carved up that pie. And really it isn't the end of Remington, just "under new management."
AwaySooner
11-18-20, 02:15
Another sad part is with Remington gone, AAC went under with them too. AAC hasn't been innovating the past few years under Remington, you literally can't find any muzzle devices if you build new guns for the last year or so. A lot of AAC customers like myself are stuck with 51t suppressors with no place to service if the ratchet goes to shit, and probably have to pay some custom shops to convert the mount.
Didn't Ruger end up with part of Remington? IIRC there were like 7 different companies that carved up that pie. And really it isn't the end of Remington, just "under new management."
Marlin, for sure. Was right on their home page.
Averageman
11-18-20, 07:11
Growing up, I saw one Browning .22, No Remington .22's and low and behold hundreds upon hundreds of Ruger 10-22's.
but I did hear that the quality of Remington had slipped and Browning's were very expensive.
When you manufacture anything you better be on the cutting edge, when you step back from that to rest on you laurels you become a footnote in history.
Growing up, I saw one Browning .22, No Remington .22's and low and behold hundreds upon hundreds of Ruger 10-22's.
but I did hear that the quality of Remington had slipped and Browning's were very expensive.
When you manufacture anything you better be on the cutting edge, when you step back from that to rest on you laurels you become a footnote in history.
Same here. 100s of 10-22s, a few Remington Nylon 66s but also tons of Marlin/Glenfields and a smattering of Savages, etc. One Browning SA22 semi auto.
Andy
Straight Shooter
11-18-20, 08:07
As far as semi's went..it was either the 10/22 or the Marlin 60. Ive seen those Marlins shoot target rifle groups..and very very reliable.
The Marlin 336's Ive owned back in the eighties & ninties were superb. The very first group I ever shot with one after sighting in, was with Remington 150gr Core Lokt ammo and thre shots into a perfect cloverleaf at 100 yeards. Those Micro Groove barrels were simply awesome.
A couple of older gents had the supernatural Nylon 66's. You couldnt pull those rifles away from those guys with a team of Goverment mules.
Ive always wanted one.
Someone asked about the Browning BOSS...went it came out it was touted as The Second Coming almost...best thing since sliced bread & better than a shirt pocket. It was very, very MEH, as I recall. Didnt do a damned thing that ammo selection, handloading and/or just plain marksmanship wouldnt do..and the cost was a lot extry too. We all werent impressed. It went the way of the dodo after a not long while.
Someone else said the best thing that ever happened to Ruger was the death of Bill Ruger, and I 100% agree.. man he just "didnt get it" on some things.
I'm not that old and I wasn't born here but when I was old enough to buy firearms there were still a ton of classic "steel and wood" firearms. Both new and used. Lots and lots of used Remington pump action rifles. Obviously lever guns and surplus once turned into hunting rifles. In fact I don't remember much polymer in the handgun displays. I remember Sigs P series, S&W number guns, high-powers, Ruger P series, 1911s and of course Glocks. I know Sigmas were around back then too but I don't remember seeing them.
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Bill Ruger built an Incredibly successful business and designed some of the most universal Everyman guns of the 1950s-1980s.
He also introduced the Number 1 and I absolutely love my 45-70. My shoulder is less of a fan.
Ruger never really did get a Centerfire semi auto pistol right, with the exception of some designs they copied from someone else. I'm also not impressed by their ARS.
Andy
Regarding Marlin and their new production being done by Remington some years back, we heard the horror stories of poor workmanship. About a year after all that hoopla, I bought a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun with the big loop lever in 45-70 that was Remington produced. Fit and finish is fine and is a work horse of a rifle. I'm not a gun snob for the most part. If it can reliably send lead downrange, it works for me.
I believe the one best thing Ruger FINALLY started doing was making better barrels of better quality & twist! Some of their rifles were absolutely beautiful in looks and/or handling, like their light-weight M77 (IIRC?) sporter or their famous No 1 single shot. But my #1 in 223 had a horrible barrel of 1-in-14” twist with a throat waaaaaay out there, so groups were ‘meh’ at best, regardless of what else was done to improve the platform, e.g., bedding, trigger job, load optimization, etc.
And gawd ... early mini barrels were 1-minute-of-barn, provided you had a big enough barn!
Averageman
11-18-20, 10:05
Same here. 100s of 10-22s, a few Remington Nylon 66s but also tons of Marlin/Glenfields and a smattering of Savages, etc. One Browning SA22 semi auto.
Andy
Well if you were a first time buyer, or a young guy learning to shoot, a Ruger 10-22 owned that market.
How do people become Ford or Chevy fans? A great first experience with that particular brand. Meanwhile in the later 70's to date, the 10-22 is essentially that "great first experience".
Mean while your Remington's and Browning saw it happening at Ruger and sat on their hands. Even Bill Ruger didn't understand what he had in his hands for the most part.
Why aren't their dinosaurs? Failure to adapt.
lovetashoot
11-18-20, 11:35
I’ve been hunting with a Ruger M-77 30-06 since my dad gave me one thirty years ago. He’s had one since the early 80’s. Those rifles have fed his and my family for decades now. I know there are better ones out there, I bought a Kimber 8400 once, but I just love my Ruger. Eats cheap Core Lokt and Power Shok like a champ.
I think you all might like this guy's channel. His home must be a veritable museum of hunting rifles.
https://youtu.be/ZxcZZu-rFaQ
FlyingHunter
11-18-20, 20:11
Great comments M4C family. That first 10-22, at least for me evolved. I now own a custom version of a 10-22 made by by Kidd with Zeiss glass on top. It cost a couple bucks more than my first birch stocked and iron sighted 10-22, but the pleasure of the design lives on. One of my favorites.
It's interesting when companies have such a failure to launch. Someone mentioned the pitiful R51 pistol. Other examples include:
Colt got into bolt action hunting rifles actually made in Germany called JPSauer or Colt/Sauer.
HK got into hunting rifles with the Model 770.
Smith and Wesson - anybody remember their rifles? The 1500...made in Japan. Perhaps an R51 vs Sigma debate could ensue? It's interesting that once upon a time many police carried some version of a S&W. What % of that market do they own now?
SIG is actually a pretty good example of adapting and meeting new customer preferences these days.
Adapt and overcome or get left behind.
PracticalRifleman
11-18-20, 20:23
Great comments M4C family. That first 10-22, at least for me evolved. I now own a custom version of a 10-22 made by by Kidd with Zeiss glass on top. It cost a couple bucks more than my first birch stocked and iron sighted 10-22, but the pleasure of the design lives on. One of my favorites.
It's interesting when companies have such a failure to launch. Someone mentioned the pitiful R51 pistol. Other examples include:
Colt got into bolt action hunting rifles actually made in Germany called JPSauer or Colt/Sauer.
HK got into hunting rifles with the Model 770.
Smith and Wesson - anybody remember their rifles? The 1500...made in Japan. Perhaps an R51 vs Sigma debate could ensue? It's interesting that once upon a time many police carried some version of a S&W. What % of that market do they own now?
SIG is actually a pretty good example of adapting and meeting new customer preferences these days.
Adapt and overcome or get left behind.
The S&W 1500 was actually made by Howa and sold with multiple brands on the same gun over the years including the Colt Lightning and Weatherby Vanguard. Solid rifle.
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.... It's interesting that once upon a time many police carried some version of a S&W. What % of that market do they own now?
SIG is actually a pretty good example of adapting and meeting new customer preferences these days....
I don't know; I think S&W is still doing a good job of hanging in there. Their M&P-15 rifles, while not amazing, are decent, popular on budget/entry civ market, and I'm sure some PDs out there are using them.
They are also still doing really well on the civ market with the M&P handgun line, and their revolvers are still great as far as I know. Do PDs still use their M&P semiauto handguns? IIRC there were a number a while back...
Regardless, they clearly don't need to pander to LE sales, as the civ market is more than keeping them afloat.
Because again, they make stuff people want and it's generally good to amazing. They didn't pull a Remington on their 2.0 M&Ps...
If I actually trusted SIG, I'd agree on that point; there is a LOT of potential in what they're putting out these days.
Grand58742
11-18-20, 23:38
If I actually trusted SIG, I'd agree on that point; there is a LOT of potential in what they're putting out these days.
I know a lot of people like to bag on Ron Cohen, but the man saved Sig from dying and yanked them into their pivot situation.
I know a lot of people like to bag on Ron Cohen, but the man saved Sig from dying and yanked them into their pivot situation.
But were they dying? I thought they were "steady/reliable" kinda like Glock. Did the 28 collector variants of the Legion P226 really save SIG? If they had some through more on the SIG 556 that was more 550 and less "goober gun" that alone would have put them heavy into black ink. How much are people dropping on those 553s?
SIG needs to decide if they are Tapco or HK.
grizzlyblake
11-19-20, 05:56
Sig's current situation bothers me more than seeing Remington go TU.
It wasn't long ago when I really revered them as king ding-a-ling for the old 556 and P226. If someone pulled either one of those out at the range you respected them.
Now it's just a million flavors of cheap Chinese garbage.
Grand58742
11-19-20, 06:53
But were they dying? I thought they were "steady/reliable" kinda like Glock. Did the 28 collector variants of the Legion P226 really save SIG? If they had some through more on the SIG 556 that was more 550 and less "goober gun" that alone would have put them heavy into black ink. How much are people dropping on those 553s?
SIG needs to decide if they are Tapco or HK.
I'm pretty sure they were in financial straits before he took over in 2004 since that's when Glock was really making a run and police agencies all over the country were switching from hammer fired pistols to Glock.
The thing is, yeah, he did add the Baskin Robbins 31 flavors to the legacy series. But he also did bring the 556 to market for them as well as pushing for the other 5.56 rifles to be produced. Along with a lot of other new products, trimming costs, overhead and making little design details in the Legacy series that improved it.
The difference in Remington and Sig was they did adapt to market conditions, kept pricing reasonable, made subtle changes to existing products that people liked (the SRT trigger and E2 grips were really good) and managed a turnaround. Now look at what they're doing.
Tapco? Really, brother?
PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 08:17
I'm pretty sure they were in financial straits before he took over in 2004 since that's when Glock was really making a run and police agencies all over the country were switching from hammer fired pistols to Glock.
The thing is, yeah, he did add the Baskin Robbins 31 flavors to the legacy series. But he also did bring the 556 to market for them as well as pushing for the other 5.56 rifles to be produced. Along with a lot of other new products, trimming costs, overhead and making little design details in the Legacy series that improved it.
The difference in Remington and Sig was they did adapt to market conditions, kept pricing reasonable, made subtle changes to existing products that people liked (the SRT trigger and E2 grips were really good) and managed a turnaround. Now look at what they're doing.
Tapco? Really, brother?
Tapco is/was part of Remington...so...[emoji23]
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I’ve been hunting with a Ruger M-77 30-06 since my dad gave me one thirty years ago. He’s had one since the early 80’s. Those rifles have fed his and my family for decades now. I know there are better ones out there, I bought a Kimber 8400 once, but I just love my Ruger. Eats cheap Core Lokt and Power Shok like a champ.
I bought an all weather M77 MKII in 30-06 fairly recently, partly because my dad has owned one in 223 for years.
I replaced the trigger with a Rifle Basix unit, but my understanding is that a decent gunsmith can tune the factory triggers. The rifle needs nothing else besides a sling, optic, and ammo.
My '06 is certainly capable of hunting accuracy, 3 shot groups are under 1.5" consistently. My dad and plenty of others have proven the M77s reliable, and durable.
I honestly don't understand the folks who classify all Rugers and especially the M77s as "budget" guns.
My .223 Ruger American Rifle is built to a price, no question. It will not be as reliable or durable as the M77, but it's also much less expensive. It does have an acceptable trigger and groups under MOA with decent ammo.
Andy
PracticalRifleman
11-19-20, 08:44
I bought an all weather M77 MKII in 30-06 fairly recently, partly because my dad has owned one in 223 for years.
I replaced the trigger with a Rifle Basix unit, but my understanding is that a decent gunsmith can tune the factory triggers. The rifle needs nothing else besides a sling, optic, and ammo.
My '06 is certainly capable of hunting accuracy, 3 shot groups are under 1.5" consistently. My dad and plenty of others have proven the M77s reliable, and durable.
I honestly don't understand the folks who classify all Rugers and especially the M77s as "budget" guns.
My .223 Ruger American Rifle is built to a price, no question. It will not be as reliable or durable as the M77, but it's also much less expensive. It does have an acceptable trigger and groups under MOA with decent ammo.
Andy
I think the M77 still carries the budget stigma in part due to them being a cast receiver and much cheaper than the M70 and other Mauser clones with machined receivers. These days we make even cheaper guns like the Savage Axis and 10/110, Ruger American, Mossberg Patriot, etc.
The M77 is still cheaper than an M70, Kimber 84/8400, Dakota, CZ 550, etc.
Myself, I was given an M77 MK II as a birthday gift for my 12th birthday. I harvested 1-2 whitetails per year with it until I retired it for sentimental reasons when I was about 30. It wears the scars from hunting all those years, but is in great shape. I had it bedded and the barrel free-floated when I was 18. Later I fitted a Pachmeyer Decelerator and Timney trigger, but it is otherwise unmodified. The old Leupold Vari-X 3 sits proudly atop. I still shoot it from time to time and it still lands 3 rounds of 165 gr Partitions into .6-.7 MOA or five rounds into about 1.2 MOA.
Yes, the 77 is certainly a solid rifle and has stood the test of time, despite having been built to a price point. Ruger bas really improved them in the last few years with the changes with the “Hawkeye” and improved barrels.
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I have an old M77 3006 with a Red field scope. I traded my MAS 49/56 (from another thread) for it. At the time I was going minimalist and figured I'd get more use from a hunting rifle. Besides it's damn near impossible to find a left handed rifle
I don't really care if it's considered a budget rifle or if the scope is considered crap. This is not and was not meant to be a tactical rifle bought for the sole purpose of putting thousands of rounds down range.
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Grand58742
11-19-20, 09:42
Tapco is/was part of Remington...so...[emoji23]
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Well, Sig is still getting at it as opposed to Remington. Best thing that's happened to them was closing the German factory since their retarded export laws prohibited Sig from exporting into "conflict zones." That's why Cohen was charged by the German courts (later dismissed).
You hear very little about the Ruger American Pistol these days. It seems to have disappeared in the sea of polymer semiautos on the market.
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