View Full Version : Detroit 3 bailout - take 2
This is encouraging - maybe there is hope for them.
WASHINGTON (Dec. 2) - Detroit's automakers, making a second bid for $25 billion in funding, are presenting Congress with plans Tuesday to restructure their ailing companies and provide assurances that the funding will help them survive and thrive.
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., and Chrysler LLC would refinance their companies' debt, cut executive pay, seek concessions from workers and find other ways of reviving their staggering companies.
Some members of Congress have urged the Big Three executives to take major pay cuts as part of the deal. Chrsyler Chief Executive Robert Nardelli said he would work for $1 a year, and a similar commitment is expected from GM CEO Rick Wagoner. Ford plans to include a pay cut for Ford CEO Alan Mulally, although the size of the cut was not immediately available.
This is encouraging - maybe there is hope for them.....
Hope for them?
I say flush them down the toilet with the
rest of the bullshit.
Someone else will immediately buy those
companies, slap a different name on them
and get right back to work making a better
product.
All the bailout does is reward the idiots (CEOS and Unions) that
screwed it all up by keeping them in charge.
Maybe that's the purpose of the bailout?
The rich bailing out the rich?
If they stay in power nothing will ever change.
Give someone else a chance to produce a better
American auto at a cheaper price.
At least the new CEO's will know the penalty for failure!
If I had been making what some of these guys have been making over the last few years I would work for free also. Think about it. They get a bailout, possibly turn things around a little, the publics attention span is shorter than the time it takes to nuke Hot Pocket and in a few years when they leave the company, they get a 10 million dollar severance. I'll take that deal anyday of the week.
They said they'd take SALARIES of $1. They made no mention of stock options or other incentive compensation. A bunch of Ford options at $3.00 (current price = $2.86) would pay off well if the stock rises to $6.00 after a bailout.
Most of these guys have salaries of about $1-2 million. The Wall Street execs had salaries of less than a million, but made many times that with options and bonuses.
All of the Big-3 plans hinge on a recovery of the auto sales market by 2010. But that is probably wishful thinking on their part. IMO, one of the 3 needs to fail so the other two can survive.
IIRC, Nardelli got $20 million when he left Home Depot. He is not hurting. Good points about the options and other incentive comp.
Nathan_Bell
12-02-08, 12:42
The executive pay is a drop in the bucket of red ink these companies are spilling.
Unless the bailout allows them to shed useless resources and the like, they will be back next year.
Big three sell 11 million units sold per year, they are contractually obligated to pay for the ability to make 16 million units per year. Bad leases, bad supplier contracts, bad labor agreements. All are a bigger problem than paying these guys multi-millions.
Cannot find the site that had the write up of where all of the money is hemorraging from it was awe inspiring when you saw that they were losing 2 billion a month.
The "restructuring" they need is called Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
Littlelebowski
12-03-08, 22:05
This whole sordid affair has made me decide to avoid union made vehicles altogether.
This whole sordid affair has made me decide to avoid union made vehicles altogether.
Here's the list:
http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm
Funny how the Toyota Corolla and Tacoma are on there...
I agree that Chapter 11 is the only way. The status quo plus more money will not work. Any bailout will come with so many strings that the provisions will force them to make more bad business decisions.
But Congress knows best, and they will mandate something stupid like 20% hybrid sales by 2015, which means the hybrids will probably be heavily subsidized to reach that volume level and sell at a big loss. But then, CAFE created a similar problem already...
Heard Rush Limbaugh a while ago talking about how the reason congress wasn't going to fund the automakers was because they wouldn't agree to manufacture "green" cars anymore and instead produce/design more gas based vehicles.
Any truth to this claim? I wouldn't be surprised considering the left does have its environmentalist lobby groups to appease.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Hybrids cost a lot of money to develop and produce, and they have to be subsidized so the customer can afford them. Otherwise, the price increase cannot be offset by the fuel savings.
The reality is that hybrids take more energy to produce, maintain, and fuel over their lifetimes than gasoline cars. Yeah they get better fuel economy for the driver, but when you take total lifecycle energy costs into account (including safe disposal of nasty battery chemicals) they are losers.
Ah, but they sound so much better on paper, and make people feel like they are helping the problem. Like true democrats, what makes them feel good is more important than reality.
Hydrogen fuel cells are a nice idea, but the technology is years away, and I don't like the idea of filling my tank up with fuel that is -423 degrees F, and the most reactive (read explosive) element that exists. The logistics of such a fuel system on a national scale is so ludicrously expensive and dangerous compared to gasoline that it's laughable.
The lunacy that is Congress has continued to mandate lower fuel economy for decades. How? All those government mandated safety features and emissions controls add weight, which reduces fuel economy. And most of those new safety features are designed to protect people that won't wear their seatbelts. Properly used seatbelts are the most effective safety device available, and everything else only adds a marginal benefit if you wear your seatbelt. And the emissions controls are trying to make 99% clean vehicles into 99.5% clean vehicles.
The real solution is in direct injection, variable valve timing, adaptive cylinder shutoffs, and controlled dieseling in gas engines at light loads. No one seems to want to admit that the petroleum powered internal combustion engine is still the most economically viable choice for passenger vehicles. Why is this such a hard thing to admit?
It's like how we have taken almost 40 years of space shuttle silliness and the loss of 14 astronauts to finally get the government to admit what the Apollo engineers told them long ago - the most cost effective space vehicles are single use rockets. Reuseable shuttles sound good on paper but are hideously expensive to fly and refurbish.
GM heading to bankruptcy again?
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/arnold-ahlert/obamas-gm-success-story-headed-for-bankruptcy/
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LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-18-12, 16:01
Cant run your own company? Cant be successful? Dont worry, in the New America that doesnt matter! Personal responsibility and lessons learned be damned!
Oh, and I'll work for $1 a year too as long as I get to keep the perquisites and stock options that these CEO's will retain.
Milton Friedman, where you at bro?
Moose-Knuckle
08-18-12, 16:40
I thought the U.S. tax payers already bought and owned GM . . .:suicide:
****'em, I drive Toyota's anyway.
GeorgiaBoy
08-18-12, 17:16
I have yet to understand why so many people on this forum are so proud to drive Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans/ect.
For a forum so devoted to America, American Capitalism, Made in America, ect, it sure is surprising to see so much support to foreign companies.
I just don't get it.
I would rather support existing domestic companies and allow them to get back on track. Or be sold to new ownership and see the "big 3" rise up again. Toyota/Honda is never going to move its headquarters and ownership to America, and until they do they are still a foreign company supporting a foreign country. Only 12% of Toyota's employees are employed in the U.S.
I thought the U.S. tax payers already bought and owned GM . . .:suicide:
****'em, I drive Toyota's anyway.
No, Fiat got a huge chunk of stock as well as the auto unions. US govt got a minority position in stocks. They better not get another bailout to "protect the public interest" in shares. I would love to see the Unions left with a bankrupt company under their ownership.
I have yet to understand why so many people on this forum are so proud to drive Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans/ect.
For a forum so devoted to America, American Capitalism, Made in America, ect, it sure is surprising to see so much support to foreign companies.
I just don't get it.
I would rather support existing domestic companies and allow them to get back on track. Or be sold to new ownership and see the "big 3" rise up again. Toyota/Honda is never going to move its headquarters and ownership to America, and until they do they are still a foreign company supporting a foreign country. Only 12% of Toyota's employees are employed in the U.S.
Because we believe in the Free Market. While I don't drive a Toyota (too boring and pedestrian), Honda, or Nissan, I drive VW (etc) because for me they drive the best and are most enjoyable, and for me, all the VWs I've had, have been really reliable. And they are just fun. None of the US manufacturers have any cars that excite me at all. None. Nada.
I do drive a Dodge RAM 2500 Cummins. The big 3 are the only ones that sell real pickups with diesels in the US.
I think that most of the ones you questioned would say they support the US, but they support freedom and the free market more and the US auto manufacturers have not done anything to earn our business.
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JBecker 72
08-18-12, 17:32
I have yet to understand why so many people on this forum are so proud to drive Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans/ect.
For a forum so devoted to America, American Capitalism, Made in America, ect, it sure is surprising to see so much support to foreign companies.
I just don't get it.
I would rather support existing domestic companies and allow them to get back on track. Or be sold to new ownership and see the "big 3" rise up again. Toyota/Honda is never going to move its headquarters and ownership to America, and until they do they are still a foreign company supporting a foreign country. Only 12% of Toyota's employees are employed in the U.S.
I love Honda's because they work, they are cheap to own and maintain, and they have excellent resale value. I don't have the time or money to **** around with inferior shit just to be patriotic.
There is not a single American made motorcycle I would ever own, EVER!
The only thing Detroit get's right is trucks, their cars suck with the exception of a few high performance vehicles that I have no interest in. I would rather have a Honda S2000, Toyota Supra, Nissan GTR, Acura NSX etc if I wanted a high performance car.
The "restructuring" they need is called Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
This. Renegotiate with the UAW. That's the reason they were bailed out before so the UAW didn't have to. Kickbacks from Omao.
Didnt Omao just say GM was profitable again in a capaign speech or ad?
GeorgiaBoy
08-18-12, 18:24
I love Honda's because they work, they are cheap to own and maintain, and they have excellent resale value. I don't have the time or money to **** around with inferior shit just to be patriotic.
There is not a single American made motorcycle I would ever own, EVER!
The only thing Detroit get's right is trucks, their cars suck with the exception of a few high performance vehicles that I have no interest in. I would rather have a Honda S2000, Toyota Supra, Nissan GTR, Acura NSX etc if I wanted a high performance car.
The mantra that "Domestic cars are shit" is a long outdated belief that originated in the 80's and 90's when domestic cars WERE shit. People started buying up Hondas or Toyotas if they wanted a reliable car. Well, times have changed. This is 2012. Domestic cars (especially offerings buy GM and Ford) are getting excellent marks among auto reviewers. They simply aren't junk like they were 10 or 15 years ago. The newer cars are stylish, fresh, and are loaded with new and intersting options and features. The difference between a Ford Taurus or Chevy Impala and a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry are increasingly slim.
The mantra that "Domestic cars are shit" is a long outdated belief that originated in the 80's and 90's when domestic cars WERE shit. People started buying up Hondas or Toyotas if they wanted a reliable car. Well, times have changed. This is 2012. Domestic cars (especially offerings buy GM and Ford) are getting excellent marks among auto reviewers. They simply aren't junk like they were 10 or 15 years ago. The newer cars are stylish, fresh, and are loaded with new and intersting options and features. The difference between a Ford Taurus or Chevy Impala and a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry are increasingly slim.
Maybe to you. When I look at a Ford or GM I see a plain piece of crap no style and no heart and soul car with lousy interior. (btw, I see that in a Toyota too). Maybe the technology has caught up somewhat, but the heart and soul of the cars are still stuck in the "piece of crap" phase. They look like a cookie cutter car that tries to check off all the features lists they can without any real desire to put good design behind them. Frankly, they still suck. To me.
If they want my business, they will have to design cars that speak to me, that drive like I want them to drive, and stop the BS way of doing business that they do.
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JBecker 72
08-18-12, 18:30
The difference between a Ford Taurus or Chevy Impala and a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry are increasingly slim.
While the gap has narrowed, the fact is that the Camry and Accord are better built cars that statistically last longer, have a higher resale value and get better real world fuel economy.
I have yet to understand why so many people on this forum are so proud to drive Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans/ect.
For a forum so devoted to America, American Capitalism, Made in America, ect, it sure is surprising to see so much support to foreign companies.
I just don't get it.
I would rather support existing domestic companies and allow them to get back on track. Or be sold to new ownership and see the "big 3" rise up again. Toyota/Honda is never going to move its headquarters and ownership to America, and until they do they are still a foreign company supporting a foreign country. Only 12% of Toyota's employees are employed in the U.S.
cause a Toyota will outlast American made cars by a good length
take a look in any tough country Central America Africa Australia old Toyota PU are all over and no American iron lasts
I am not so rich or stupid to just dump money down the tubes
sad truth but for a long time most American cars were junk and many still are and some are now quite good ! funny though the good ones tend to be joint ventures with foreign auto makers ;)
many so called American cars are assembled in Mexico or overseas including China while Toyota and BMW Nisan etc... are assembled in USA :) go figure when a so called import is made here and our so called made here are imported !
I think its 7 out of 11 GM cars are not made in the US and forgot the % that are made in China !!! could be wrong on stats but its more than one thinks !!
so in your eyes a US company that sells out to foreign companies gives out its technology then fires US workers and starts over seas hires a ton of them starts up factories overseas is better than a company that comes here when they dont have to and hires US workers to build their cars?
so you are happier with the fat cat CEO based here but the workers are fired here and hired over seas ! sorry to me that is not a US company just cause the headquarters is !!! the headquarters is not where most America works !
when a Kentucky Toyota worker makes more than a GM union guy ? you have to wonder whats wrong with GM and its unions
The intelligent consumer doesn't have Stockholm syndrome or an infection with some psuedo nationalistic fervor that dictates vehicle purchases.
Choices are made to ensure getting to work on time, keeping the family safe, longevity expectations and a modicum of resale value.
GM choices historically blow in reliability and resale. Neither banks, insurance companies, auto manufactures or any other weak species is too big to fail.
It's not my job to inhibit natural selection.
Moose-Knuckle
08-18-12, 19:30
I have yet to understand why so many people on this forum are so proud to drive Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans/ect.
For a forum so devoted to America, American Capitalism, Made in America, ect, it sure is surprising to see so much support to foreign companies.
I just don't get it.
I would rather support existing domestic companies and allow them to get back on track. Or be sold to new ownership and see the "big 3" rise up again. Toyota/Honda is never going to move its headquarters and ownership to America, and until they do they are still a foreign company supporting a foreign country. Only 12% of Toyota's employees are employed in the U.S.
:lol:
A lot of "made in America" automobiles are not really made here at all. Canada is the single largest exporter of automobiles to date. The great "American" Chevy Camaro and Impala, Dodge Charger and Challenger and the Chrysler 300 are all made with pride by are neighbors in the Great White North. The Chrysler 300's V-8 is made in Mexico. Engines in the Chevrolet Equinox are from China. The Ford Fusion is assembled in Mexico. That's just a few.
But that damn "Jap" truck of mine that just keeps going and going was built by American's in San Antonio, TX.
My new to me 2011 Nissan Titan was made in Mississippi.
I had to buy it after my 04' F250 got 100k on the odometer and could not keep a spark plug in the motor.
I have another 05 F250 that is my work truck and its nearing 100k and on the way out, never ever again...
Belmont31R
08-18-12, 20:48
Domestic = UAW which is a no go.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
OK I was wrong not 7 out of 11 but 7 out of 10 of GM :) straight from the CEOs mouth !
Georgiaboy I suggest you watch this then get back to me how great GM is as a American company!
do your own research you will find its true what GM is doing with china etc..
GM distrubuting our technology and money to china ! and moving part of its technology dept over to china etc..
also how they have sold off some of its US companies to Chinese owners !
Our commitment to working in China, with China, and for China remains strong and focused on the future.” - Dan Akerson, CEO of GM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo&feature=player_embedded#!
Mauser KAR98K
08-18-12, 22:24
The only two domestic car companies I will buy from are Chrysler, and Lincoln. Here is why:
We have an '08 Dodge ram 1500 with the Hemi. By far this has been our best truck from Dodge. After 100,000 miles, we final HAD to replace the original spark plugs. New brakes and tie-rods are going in next Friday. We had to have the transmission rebuilt, that is because Firestone did a back-flush and fluid change, but not the filters. For some odd reason the tranny went. :confused: Our last Ram was a 98 and we sold it after we put 225,000 miles on it. Course, the transmission was rebuilt, had to put a new rear end on because of bad carrier barrings, and the catalytic converter went belly up (so the 318 got dual exhaust with Glass Packs. My dear mother went to work like it was NASCAR).
Our '97, which we traded three weeks ago (story later) had 215,000 miles on it. This is after a new air intake in order to replace the plastic thermostat housing the cracked and sprayed engine coolant on the engine. Other than spark plugs and brakes, it ran like a champ...actually like a Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor with one wide ass, but cushy suspension.
I traded it, and a boat for a used 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I am loving, and I have always wanted a Jeep (really a wrangler). I see a lot of older Jeeps driving around and I am hoping that the reliability of my '08 will be the same as the older ones.
At present, Ford is alive with the Fusion, Mustang and their trucks. Same with Chrysler, but with the Challenger line. GM has their Camero and again, their so called durable trucks. Yet, I so agree that most of the deans are cookie cutter cars, but even some of the imports are the as well (except for the German's of course).
So, what I am waiting for now, is the new Ford Aston Martin Rapid...I mean Fusion.
As for the bailouts. Chapter 11 could have done a lot folks much better.
Belmont31R
08-18-12, 22:39
The only two domestic car companies I will buy from are Chrysler, and Lincoln. Here is why:
We have an '08 Dodge ram 1500 with the Hemi. By far this has been our best truck from Dodge. After 100,000 miles, we final HAD to replace the original spark plugs. New brakes and tie-rods are going in next Friday. We had to have the transmission rebuilt, that is because Firestone did a back-flush and fluid change, but not the filters. For some odd reason the tranny went. :confused: Our last Ram was a 98 and we sold it after we put 225,000 miles on it. Course, the transmission was rebuilt, had to put a new rear end on because of bad carrier barrings, and the catalytic converter went belly up (so the 318 got dual exhaust with Glass Packs. My dear mother went to work like it was NASCAR).
Our '97, which we traded three weeks ago (story later) had 215,000 miles on it. This is after a new air intake in order to replace the plastic thermostat housing the cracked and sprayed engine coolant on the engine. Other than spark plugs and brakes, it ran like a champ...actually like a Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor with one wide ass, but cushy suspension.
I traded it, and a boat for a used 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I am loving, and I have always wanted a Jeep (really a wrangler). I see a lot of older Jeeps driving around and I am hoping that the reliability of my '08 will be the same as the older ones.
At present, Ford is alive with the Fusion, Mustang and their trucks. Same with Chrysler, but with the Challenger line. GM has their Camero and again, their so called durable trucks. Yet, I so agree that most of the deans are cookie cutter cars, but even some of the imports are the as well (except for the German's of course).
So, what I am waiting for now, is the new Ford Aston Martin Rapid...I mean Fusion.
As for the bailouts. Chapter 11 could have done a lot folks much better.
Sounds like a lot of problems for that year of of vehicle and the mileage.
100k is too long to go on spark plugs anyways. 100k mile mark to me, means you really need to start doing PM's like replacing belts, alternator and starter, water pump, ect when you get the time and money to do so. Also a new battery every 4-5 years doesn't hurt. All these things don't requite a lot of time or tools.
The shit I hate is thing like window motors and common problems these manufacturers try their best to not address. My drivers side window on my 350Z keeps sticking, and theres a shit ton of people online with the same problem. It seems like auto manufacturers try to delay a fix or bulletin as long as they can, and then hope as many cars as possible go off warranty as they can get.
The auto industry in the failed city of Detroit is a pestilence on the rest of the country, the unions are a vampiric special internist group that continue to pump money into the DNC.
Reap what you sow et al.
Talking of that POS industry in the past tense will be something I will enjoy telling my grandchildren about.
The Big Three are not so much auto companies but rather health insurance companies that also happen to make cars in addition to their pension and annuity business.
With any luck, after the 2012 elections the Gops will hold the Congress and the White House. And, Congress should be filled with a lot of Tea Party energy. Hopefully this time the Big Three will be allowed to file Chapter 11 and reorganize.
The intelligent consumer doesn't have Stockholm syndrome or an infection with some psuedo nationalistic fervor that dictates vehicle purchases.
Choices are made to ensure getting to work on time, keeping the family safe, longevity expectations and a modicum of resale value.
GM choices historically blow in reliability and resale. Neither banks, insurance companies, auto manufactures or any other weak species is too big to fail.
It's not my job to inhibit natural selection.
QFT
Having said that one thing I will give GM trucks is this. Their front bucket seats are fantastic. They are better than what I have in my current Ford. I so miss them from my 1500HD but that's about that. Then again my ford hasn't had 2 thermostats spontaneously go tits up and cost me two engines. The nice thing is that is a known issue ut GM won't recall or offer to repair their known defect. I haven't had to replace the cooling system in it, nor the power steering pump either. And my transmission at the same mileage isn't about to drop out either. So yeah, let GM die, but I want the designs to the bucket seats.
Now if only Toyota would make a 3/4 ton with the full rear cab and a standard bed I would be on that like white on rice.
The auto industry in the failed city of Detroit is a pestilence on the rest of the country, the unions are a vampiric special internist group that continue to pump money into the DNC.
Reap what you sow et al.
Talking of that POS industry in the past tense will be something I will enjoy telling my grandchildren about.
+1. Well said.
UAW ran the industry into the ground along with complicit CEOs. Then they rob bondholders of assets of GM with gangster politicians. And then get tens of millions of taxpayer "loans (wink)".
My 2003 Accord runs like a top and made in USA.
If I get the urge to support corrupt US corps and politicians I will buy another Honda made without UAW and mail a check to Obama, Frank and city council of Detroit.
They got bailed out once...and just like bailing out Wall St, it probably should'nt of happened, They go under this time, tough shit. I think they could build a good product, but as many have said, the UAW has to go..
I work as a pipefitter, and I've worked in both UAW plants(Ford) as well as Honda plants, One thing I'll never forget is, when hiring in on a Ford plant, we (pipefitters, as well as ALL construction workers)were told that we could not use the restrooms, lunchrooms, or vending machines in the lunchrooms, get caught and you'll get fired..Later I was talking with a local fitter, and asked why ford managment would'nt at least let us use the restrooms..He told me it was'nt Ford managment, but, rather the UAW... I said, "So, let me get this straight, they won't even let us in a lunchroom to get a candy bar without getting fired, and they want us to buy their products?" Yup, that's right..I was told They don't want you in there, they think we're a bunch of theives, They also think they should be building this addition(even though they don't know how)..I never forgot it..
A couple years later, I was working in a Honda plant in Marysville, It was in the middle of Oct,and we usually ate our lunch outside in the building we were working on, (no heat, and it was starting to get cool out) One day this guy from Honda's upper management came out and asked us why we were eating out here, and told us, we want you guys to come up and eat with us, in the cafateria, all of you are more than welcome to come up, use the restrooms, get a hot meal.. They treated us like gold...I never forgot that, either...
about a year and a half ago, I bought a new truck, GMC Serria 4x4, basically this will be used for hauling wood for my outside wood burner, my reasoning is, I plan on retiring in 2 yrs, and it'll just about paid off when I retire, and should last me quite awhile. I looked at Toyota's but could'nt find one that wasn't fully loaded, extended cab etc, and mostly over $35,000,I wanted a basic stripped down 4x4, and that's like finding hen's teeth, even on the Big 3 lots..So, I ended up with the GMC, simply because it had what I wanted, and it was priced right.. I don't think I'll have any problems with it for quite awhile.My Honda CRV (1999) has 211,000 miles on it, with few problems, and what few I've had, were simply parts that wore out.. But, the reality is, the UAW can go **** themselves, they ruined what could be a really good industry, and ran it into the ground.. When the last day comes, and they're all walking out to the parking lot kicking rocks for the last time, I wonder if any of them will figure out why..
CarlosDJackal
08-19-12, 09:51
Oh I get it. The "you didn't build that without the governent's help" statement that that idiot of a POTUS made was a reference to Chrysler and GM.
Now it all makes sense!!
CarlosDJackal
08-19-12, 10:10
I have yet to understand why so many people on this forum are so proud to drive Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans/ect.
For a forum so devoted to America, American Capitalism, Made in America, ect, it sure is surprising to see so much support to foreign companies.
I just don't get it.
I would rather support existing domestic companies and allow them to get back on track. Or be sold to new ownership and see the "big 3" rise up again. Toyota/Honda is never going to move its headquarters and ownership to America, and until they do they are still a foreign company supporting a foreign country. Only 12% of Toyota's employees are employed in the U.S.
My 2004 Honda Civic EX was made in Ohio (which is in America the last I checked); but my Dodge Charger R/T was made in Canada (which is not in America the last time I checked).
My Civic has more than 150k miles without any mechanical issues (the only issue I've had was caused by an incompetent mechanic). I get 36-42 MG with it and as far as I know, it was made in a non-union factory.
Unions like the UAW has ruined this country becausse of their greed and corruption. If given a choice between a car made in a non-union factory by a foreign company or a car made in a union factory by a US company; th choice is pretty easy. Loyalty to "American Made" products sometimes have to take a backseat to the quality of that product.
That being said, I wish Ford made a 4-door model that I liked when I bought the Charger. Unfortunately, the Taurus SHO and Crown Vic just didn't appeal to me. I do still root for the Detroit 3 in NASCAR races (well Detroit 2 since Dodge has withdrawn).
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-19-12, 11:23
I have yet to understand why so many people on this forum are so proud to drive Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans/ect.
For a forum so devoted to America, American Capitalism, Made in America, ect, it sure is surprising to see so much support to foreign companies.
I just don't get it.
I would rather support existing domestic companies and allow them to get back on track. Or be sold to new ownership and see the "big 3" rise up again. Toyota/Honda is never going to move its headquarters and ownership to America, and until they do they are still a foreign company supporting a foreign country. Only 12% of Toyota's employees are employed in the U.S.
I dont get why ANY American would think it is "American" to only buy American made products. We are free market capitalists, as least most or maybe now many of us are. We buy the best product available and reward hard work and ingenuity with our money. This in turn creates competition in industry and leads to better products from all competitors. If a competitor cant make a better product, then they die out and are eventually replaced by someone who will. To reward failing a failing business with subpar products simply because they are located in the US is more a form of socialism/nationalism than it is capitalism and freedom. If the US Auto Industry wishes to get out of the gutter, it needs to start making better cars that last longer and stop relying on bailouts to turn profits at the end of the year.
To cite my own reference point:
1993 Dodge Dakota: My first vehicle. Drove it from 30k to 200k. Had a fairly powerful V8 and a slim body which allowed me to pull our horse trailers and flat beds while still having an economical city truck as well. Replaced on my dime the transmission at about 150k, as well as many other small parts. Total cost of ownership was far too high.
2006 Jeep Wrangler: Bought this with 15k on it, certified from a Chrysler dealer. Clutch was gone at 33k, rear diff at 40k, sway bar at 45k, etc. Sold it after 4 years and was happy to see it go.
2006 Dodge Ram: Traded the Jeep for this. Got the 5.7l V8 Hemi. This was used with 46k on it in 2011. Advertised MPG is 13-17, actual is SUPPOSED to be about 12-16. I get 10-14, yay. AC has now taken a shit on me which is so fun for the summer, of course the damn Dodge dealership says its not their fault, fine.
After all of that, Ive almost sworn off US cars. This month I bought a 2008 Honda CRV with 38k on it for my wife. Its the first car Ive ever bought where I felt confident that it was going to last me a lifetime. In the next few months, I'll be selling my truck (at a loss) and buying a Subaru.
GeorgiaBoy
08-19-12, 13:28
You guys can buy whatever you all want, none of my business. But it still remains to hypocritical to me.
Also, the entire "my Honda/Toyota/Nissan/XYZ" was "Made right here in America" and my "GM/Ford/Chrysler" was made in "Mexico/Canada/China" is such a trivial argument.
Toyota, Honda, Ect. make cars they sell in America here because it is much cheaper than trying to export all of those cars across the Pacific. It is simply economically efficient. If they could make them in Japan without a loss in profits, I'd imagine they probably would. (Countries like Japan have VERY high national pride)
The same goes for companies like GM. They make vehicles in CHINA because it is more ECONOMICALLY EFFICIENT to produce them in the country they selling them in.
There are PLENTY of domestic cars made right here instead of in Mexico or Canada. Besides that, most of the time cars are "made" in Mexico or Canada, they are mostly just being assembled. The motors, transmission, body, axles, ect. usually come from the U.S.
For example, every GMC/Chevrolet pickup is made in the U.S., except for the crew cab models. Their engines and transmissions are made in the U.S.
WATCH THIS VIDEO !!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo&feature=player_embedded#!
Our commitment to working in China, with China, and for China remains strong and focused on the future.” - Dan Akerson, CEO of GM
much of the stuff you buy HERE IS NOT MADE HERE !!!!
again 7 out of 10 are made elsewhere and not here !!!
if thats US made to you ? OK but you are also supporting a company that is outsourcing more and more to china !
its like saying I support obama %100 cause he is in the USA !!
pick and choose what you want to drive by where its made then ? thats fine but I pick and choose by my needs and wants and also reliability and who I support I wont support union auto workers or their fat cat big wigs anymore they are a major problem these days sadly
I will support the auto workers in Kentucky or other US plants by buying their products though :)
You guys can buy whatever you all want, none of my business. But it still remains to hypocritical to me.
Also, the entire "my Honda/Toyota/Nissan/XYZ" was "Made right here in America" and my "GM/Ford/Chrysler" was made in "Mexico/Canada/China" is such a trivial argument.
Toyota, Honda, Ect. make cars they sell in America here because it is much cheaper than trying to export all of those cars across the Pacific. It is simply economically efficient. If they could make them in Japan without a loss in profits, I'd imagine they probably would. (Countries like Japan have VERY high national pride)
The same goes for companies like GM. They make vehicles in CHINA because it is more ECONOMICALLY EFFICIENT to produce them in the country they selling them in.
There are PLENTY of domestic cars made right here instead of in Mexico or Canada. Besides that, most of the time cars are "made" in Mexico or Canada, they are mostly just being assembled. The motors, transmission, body, axles, ect. usually come from the U.S.
For example, every GMC/Chevrolet pickup is made in the U.S., except for the crew cab models. Their engines and transmissions are made in the U.S.
You guys can buy whatever you all want, none of my business. But it still remains to hypocritical to me.
Also, the entire "my Honda/Toyota/Nissan/XYZ" was "Made right here in America" and my "GM/Ford/Chrysler" was made in "Mexico/Canada/China" is such a trivial argument.
Toyota, Honda, Ect. make cars they sell in America here because it is much cheaper than trying to export all of those cars across the Pacific. It is simply economically efficient. If they could make them in Japan without a loss in profits, I'd imagine they probably would. (Countries like Japan have VERY high national pride)
The same goes for companies like GM. They make vehicles in CHINA because it is more ECONOMICALLY EFFICIENT to produce them in the country they selling them in.
There are PLENTY of domestic cars made right here instead of in Mexico or Canada. Besides that, most of the time cars are "made" in Mexico or Canada, they are mostly just being assembled. The motors, transmission, body, axles, ect. usually come from the U.S.
For example, every GMC/Chevrolet pickup is made in the U.S., except for the crew cab models. Their engines and transmissions are made in the U.S.
That's odd..the Trans. on my 2011 Serria was made in MEXICO!
The same goes for companies like GM. They make vehicles in CHINA because it is more ECONOMICALLY EFFICIENT to produce them in the country they selling them in.
What about the engines from China that GM is using in the US?
Di you know many of the parts in US made "foreign" marks are sourced in the US? The engines and transmissions usually aren't since they share engines and transmissions with their worldwide lineup of cars, but a lot of the smaller parts are. The label on a new car will show you the percentages. Supporting US workers making cars for Honda or Toyota or VW or BMW is supporting America and rewarding companies that build good products.
The fact is, most of the Big 3 Detroit companies' cars are crap. They are butt ugly, ride like a pregnant whale, and handle with mediocrity. And many of them wear out prematurely.
Yes, Japanese cars also have problems some times, but they tend to last a lot longer. (And no, I don't drive them -- I find Toyotas butt ugly, though they ride and handle much better than US car makers cars -- Hondas are better looking but don't really turn me on, Subaru has some distinctive looking cars but none of them handle like a German car to me, which is *for me* a decisive factor). And The Japanese cars also tend to ride better and handle better than detroit iron. And then there is the UAW factor as well.
Having said all that, I do try and avoid Chinese made products and would rather spend a little more to buy a non Chinese made product. I am talking every day household items etc. In most cases you don't have a choice, but when I do, I tend to buy American.
--
OK so we have companies like Toyota and Nissan BMW etc..
who do not need to make cars here but choose to for whatever reasons
so they bring jobs to the US
then we have so called US companies that dont need to outsource jobs but decide its better cheaper for them to move to China and Mexico and other countries to build things and give away our technology and move jobs over seas and then sell the companies that are here to China and put them under their control so the money that is so called built here tends to go over seas on top of it all ?
hmmmmm
I was an engineer at Ford. I left in 2007 when we realized that Ford took out a $23 bn loan and put everything up as collateral including the blue oval trademark.
I can assure u that the big issue was NOT the UAW but shortsighted management; management that was not technical, we're not "car guys" and we're driven by 1/4ly profits. The mantra was "minimal input, maximum short term profit."
There was little discipline in the engineering ranks, too.
It's STILL infected with non-car guys who are focused (pun intended) on profit margins more so than proper engineering.
They ALL treat the suppliers like feces mandating profit margins and there are a host of ethical issues I'll choose not to repeat.
It's a mess that needs cleaning but to allow them all to buy up the other two would be interminably stupid. If a nation chooses to be independent there are several things it MUST control:
(A) It's money supply
(B) It's borders
(C) It's manufacturing base
We control very little - a dying manufacturing base...
CarlosDJackal
08-19-12, 20:20
You guys can buy whatever you all want, none of my business. But it still remains to hypocritical to me.
Also, the entire "my Honda/Toyota/Nissan/XYZ" was "Made right here in America" and my "GM/Ford/Chrysler" was made in "Mexico/Canada/China" is such a trivial argument... blaah-blah-blah...
Then why did you bring it up in the first place? :rolleyes:
GeorgiaBoy
08-19-12, 20:30
Then why did you bring it up in the first place? :rolleyes:
Never said I cared what people bought. I said it didn't make much sense to me.
Belmont31R
08-19-12, 21:59
My 350Z was made in Japan, and I don't care. The Nissan 35 series engines are some of the top rated engines of any modern car, and I don't want to pay a UAW turd to make my car. Simple as that. I would also buy a made in the USA NON UAW made car. There are several plants outside of union run states who are making good cars, too.
Moose-Knuckle
08-20-12, 00:07
Ever heard the phrase "don't but a car made on a Monday or a Friday"?
I knew a guy who grew up in Detroit. When he was 18 him and his buddies would go to a titty bar just outside the gates of GM's plant. One of his buddies dad's would walk across the plant's parking lot and jump the fence to join the boys at the titty bar to get dances and his drink on all the while being clocked in at the plant. This happened several times a week. The UAW is a ****ing joke. Plant employees would routinely do shit to sabotage cars on the line. Placing metal parts loose in some inaccessible cavity in the auto body so it would rattle around and no mechanic would ever be able to locate the "problem".
Some of that is reported to have taken place. I never witnessed such antics, though. I've got my gripes with the UAW but they are not the "source" of the Big Three's discontent.
Moose-Knuckle
08-20-12, 00:22
Some of that is reported to have taken place. I never witnessed such antics, though. I've got my gripes with the UAW but they are not the "source" of the Big Three's discontent.
Absolutely, the UAW is just one cog in the wheel.
Belmont31R
08-20-12, 00:38
Absolutely, the UAW is just one cog in the wheel.
http://youtu.be/XVmKyJXHXRE
I have yet to understand why so many people on this forum are so proud to drive Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans/ect.
For a forum so devoted to America, American Capitalism, Made in America, ect, it sure is surprising to see so much support to foreign companies.
I just don't get it.
Blanket statement and straw man argument.
You guys can buy whatever you all want, none of my business. But it still remains to hypocritical to me.
Also, the entire "my Honda/Toyota/Nissan/XYZ" was "Made right here in America" and my "GM/Ford/Chrysler" was made in "Mexico/Canada/China" is such a trivial argument.
Never said I cared what people bought. I said it didn't make much sense to me.
I think it's a much more trivial argument to say that this forum is devoted to American Capitalism, etc. yet buys foreign when the foundation of capitalism is a free market to choose whatever you want to buy instead of forcing yourself to support the UAW by buying "American." That really doesn't make sense to me.
Big 3 cars that have good residual value, look good (my personal taste), have relatively low maintenance costs, and get good gas mileage don't exist.
Those four requirements for me are very easy to find in foreign made vehicles.
Edmunds reports that Lincoln beat rivals Cadillac, Lexus and Toyota in US Customer Satisfaction Index with a score of 90% compared to Lexus (89%) and Buick and Subaru (87%).
This survey is a reflection of the customer being SATISFIED not necessarily absolute quality, per se, as emotion will play a role.
Lincoln also unseats Porsche in J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study. Apparently, the Porsche 911 had the fewest problems in the industry.
This was reported in May of this year and coincides with Porsche's new 991 which replaces the phenomenal 997.
I don't put too much value in these rankings but...
Good news just the same.
A good website is:
www.thetruthaboutcars.com
Lots of auto engineers comment after the articles - including me from time to time.
I grew up in a family that bought nothing but Amercian cars. I dont think it was because my parents were the "buy American" type, but it just happened that way. I dont remember my parents having any significant problems with their cars until after year 2000. I believe thats when the big3 really dropped their quality and skated by on their loyal customer base.
My mother bought a 2005 Pontiac Sunfire that was the biggest piece of shit I have ever seen. When she finally got rid of it at 60k miles it hardly ran. All the guages in the dashboard were broken or way off. The transmission was rough and about to blow up. The fuel system would leak on top of the engine and when we brought it to Chevy they told us it was common and they werent going to fix it under warranty.
My wifes friend had a mid 2000s Chrysler Sebring. When she finally got rid of it at 80k miles it had a new engine and was on its third transmission. I had another friend who had their Sebring transmission replaced at 30k miles.
On the other hand my mother in law is still driving the Honda Civic she bought in 1997. It has somewhere around 160k miles on it and it still runs strong. Its never had a major problem. My bropther in law has a 2003 Honda Civic with 170k+ miles on it that runs great.
My 2006 Subaru WRX went over 100k miles without a single mechanical problem that I didnt cause. There was one time when I ran over a construction plate that was covering a hole in the street. The plate popped up, caught onto a flange on my exhaust and ripped it off the car at the turbo. Car was fine and only needed a new exhaust. That car was stock 224hp and 235lbtq. At 20k miles it went to 310hp and 420lbtq. That drivetrain ran perfect with a 50 percent increase in power and almost double the torque. That car was raced alot and did several runs off road. It was even jumped a couple times.
It seems that in the last few years that the big 3 have pulled their heads out of their ass some and are starting to invest in their vehicles. Ford in particular seems to be really gunning to be taken serious again and its showing in their cars.
I drive Chevy at work. The Impalas are not taking to the life of a police car very well and are falling apart. The Tahoes are doing very well as police cars and actaully get better gas mileage than the Impalas. But when I sit in the Tahoe I cant see why it s a 35 thousand dollar car for a base model.
it seems some people love lincolns like they do their kids and they can do know wrong
had a buddy like that ? it was his ultimate luxury car for some odd reason no other car was ever as good even though the ones he had always had issues like door handles falling off window issues etc.. seats coming apart after 100k etc..
Edmunds reports that Lincoln beat rivals Cadillac, Lexus and Toyota in US Customer Satisfaction Index with a score of 90% compared to Lexus (89%) and Buick and Subaru (87%).
This survey is a reflection of the customer being SATISFIED not necessarily absolute quality, per se, as emotion will play a role.
Lincoln also unseats Porsche in J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study. Apparently, the Porsche 911 had the fewest problems in the industry.
This was reported in May of this year and coincides with Porsche's new 991 which replaces the phenomenal 997.
I don't put too much value in these rankings but...
Good news just the same.
it seems some people love lincolns like they do their kids and they can do know wrong
had a buddy like that ? it was his ultimate luxury car for some odd reason no other car was ever as good even though the ones he had always had issues like door handles falling off window issues etc.. seats coming apart after 100k etc..
I'm a fan of Porsche and BMW Motorsport brands not Lincoln.
Don't read too much into my posts; I posted that to quell the "it's all crap crowd" though I still maintain a healthy case of "what's it like 5 years from now?"
I'm a fan of Porsche and BMW Motorsport brands not Lincoln.
Don't read too much into my posts; I posted that to quell the "it's all crap crowd" though I still maintain a healthy case of "what's it like 5 years from now?"
But it doesn't quell the "it's all crap crowd"
#1 Lincoln is a very minor marque in the US car industry and the results aren't shared with its parent, Ford
#2 I think that these are not long term satisfaction studies, but initial satisfaction or quality studies.
#2 I don't think people buy Porsche because they last forever and don't need repairs ;)
---
I understood ya :) was just more confirming how for some reason lincoln folks seem to ignore their car falling apart yet still satisfied
Strange for sure
I'm a fan of Porsche and BMW Motorsport brands not Lincoln.
Don't read too much into my posts; I posted that to quell the "it's all crap crowd" though I still maintain a healthy case of "what's it like 5 years from now?"
Chad and Honu, you're both correct.
Ford HAS gotten better; they've ALL gotten better. The Japanese entry-level cars have been decontented somewhat but the reliability is still there.
CS Data is just that: satisfaction with the vehicle and is the source behind the extended oil changes, believe it or not: don't have to come in, cannot officially complain...
Yep, the data is 30, 60 or 90 day data.
What I find funny is seeing a Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc. with an Obama 2012 sticker on it. Seems a little hypocrtical to me. If someone who drives a foreign car supports Obama, IMO that would mean they supported the auto bailout. How come they don't by a GM, Chrysler or Ford then?
Chad and Honu, you're both correct.
Ford HAS gotten better; they've ALL gotten better. The Japanese entry-level cars have been decontented somewhat but the reliability is still there.
I don't doubt that the Big 3 are better cars now than they were 20 years ago or whenever, at least on an absolute scale. They still pale compared to the competition... And most are butt-ugly :D And are still made by the UAW
--
What I find funny is seeing a Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc. with an Obama 2012 sticker on it. Seems a little hypocrtical to me. If someone who drives a foreign car supports Obama, IMO that would mean they supported the auto bailout. How come they don't by a GM, Chrysler or Ford then?
At least for the BMW, it makes perfect sense. The more well off feel guilty about being well off, so they want GOVERNMENT to do something about it. (i.e., take your money and mine to give to the welfare slackers and everyone else sucking at the teet instead using their own money for charity)
--
At least for the BMW, it makes perfect sense. The more well off feel guilty about being well off, so they want GOVERNMENT to do something about it. (i.e., take your money and mine to give to the welfare slackers and everyone else sucking at the teet instead using their own money for charity)
--
American cars also aren't kool enough for them.
What I find funny is seeing a Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc. with an Obama 2012 sticker on it. Seems a little hypocrtical to me. If someone who drives a foreign car supports Obama, IMO that would mean they supported the auto bailout. How come they don't by a GM, Chrysler or Ford then?
Some of my extended family fit this! They got all worked about Al Gore and global warming. What have they done since? Bought new Mazda sports car, ski boat, Lexus, two cruises, upgraded to bigger and flatter screens in TV room and each bedroom, etc.
Meanwhile I am still driving my 1995 van, 2003 Accord and still have just the same one TV for the last 12 years. Even though I could easily afford new toys.
Global warming scares them but not as much as not having the latest luxury.
Some of my extended family fit this! They got all worked about Al Gore and global warming. What have they done since? Bought new Mazda sports car, ski boat, Lexus, two cruises, upgraded to bigger and flatter screens in TV room and each bedroom, etc.
Meanwhile I am still driving my 1995 van, 2003 Accord and still have just the same one TV for the last 12 years. Even though I could easily afford new toys.
Global warming scares them but not as much as not having the latest luxury.
There was an article I read a few years ago, ironically enough written by a hard core enviro group, that said the majority of people like this (lib. celebrities, politicians, Al Gore, etc.) feel like they can get away with this behavior because they have done one or two little things to make themselves feel better about the "work" they've done.
Al Gore lives in what a 5,000 square foot mansion or two? His monthly power bill alone could feed me for a year. Anyway, he's opened the worlds eyes to global warming so he's all good in his own mind.
People like this buy one hybrid or install a solar panel and it's then OK for them to buy three Hummers because they did that one little feel good thing. Ain't that a freakin' peach?
You guys can buy whatever you all want, none of my business. But it still remains to hypocritical to me.
Also, the entire "my Honda/Toyota/Nissan/XYZ" was "Made right here in America" and my "GM/Ford/Chrysler" was made in "Mexico/Canada/China" is such a trivial argument.
Toyota, Honda, Ect. make cars they sell in America here because it is much cheaper than trying to export all of those cars across the Pacific. It is simply economically efficient. If they could make them in Japan without a loss in profits, I'd imagine they probably would. (Countries like Japan have VERY high national pride)
The same goes for companies like GM. They make vehicles in CHINA because it is more ECONOMICALLY EFFICIENT to produce them in the country they selling them in.
There are PLENTY of domestic cars made right here instead of in Mexico or Canada. Besides that, most of the time cars are "made" in Mexico or Canada, they are mostly just being assembled. The motors, transmission, body, axles, ect. usually come from the U.S.
For example, every GMC/Chevrolet pickup is made in the U.S., except for the crew cab models. Their engines and transmissions are made in the U.S.
But the "foreign" cars quite often use more american made parts. So if its american made, and american assembled, VS foriegn made and foreign assembled... which is actually putting more $ in our economy?
Or is it about the feelings it gives you?
All that said, I drive an 05 acura tsx, got it for $8k. Only thing close was some shitty saturn with destroyed interior or a grand am:rolleyes:. Your money just goes farther with the other makes sometimes.
Also, GM isnt an American company anymore, its a UAW company.
Also, GM isnt an American company anymore, its a UAW company.Hunh?
Hunh?
I think he is referring to the after bailout GM. Fiat got a large chunk of GM stock and another large chunk was given to the UAW. And US Treasury bought $85 million of shares First claim bondholders were shafted in lieu of foreign and socialist interests. This not how an American publicly held company is supposed to be handled.
Most large US corps are that in name only. In truth they are multi-national corps (MNC), or beyond any national allegiance or interest. The largest percentage of GM sales and manufacturing is now in China. Perhaps some top executives are US citizens, but their thinking and decisions have little to do with that and the US operations is now more of a subsidiary of the MNC.
Fiat didn't get any GM stock. Fiat took over Chrysler as part of THEIR bailout.
I think he is referring to the after bailout GM. Fiat got a large chunk of GM stock and another large chunk was given to the UAW. And US Treasury bought $85 million of shares First claim bondholders were shafted in lieu of foreign and socialist interests. This not how an American publicly held company is supposed to be handled.
Most large US corps are that in name only. In truth they are multi-national corps (MNC), or beyond any national allegiance or interest. The largest percentage of GM sales and manufacturing is now in China. Perhaps some top executives are US citizens, but their thinking and decisions have little to do with that and the US operations is now more of a subsidiary of the MNC.
Thanks for the correction. I forgot about Chrysler! So for GM it was US taxpayers buying stock at inflated levels and UAW being handed free stock. Didn't the UAW even get controlling interest in shares as well?
Belmont31R
08-25-12, 17:03
Thanks for the correction. I forgot about Chrysler! So for GM it was US taxpayers buying stock at inflated levels and UAW being handed free stock. Didn't the UAW even get controlling interest in shares as well?
The whole thing was handled completely out of norm with bankruptcy norms. They basically told first in line bond holders to **** off, and gave the company to the UAW and the Federal government. Not to mention the non-UAW workers pensions were taken away while UAW workers were not.
They are also claiming the "bail out" [under tarp] was repaid. If you remember they got TARP money, and then once Obama took office they got several billion as well. What they did is paid the TARP money back with Obama bail out money, and then they put commercials on the air saying they repaid the "loans". The Obama money was basically buying shares in GM which gave them a shit ton of money. Now...if we as tax payers through the government sold the shares we have right now it would be a HUGE loss of billions of dollars because GM stock price has gone down.
The whole thing is so ****ed up I'm surprised to see so many people still chomping at the bit to buy Government/UAW Motors vehicles. They shafted the legitimate bond holders, and non unionized workers, and Obama got the UAW a huge portion of the company as well the government. Its really not much different than buying a government produced car in the old USSR.
I'd never personally buy a Chyrsler, Ford, or GM vehicle. We have a Jeep Liberty right now which was gifted to us, and its the worst vehicle I've ever had. We are waiting on the title to come in the mail so we can get rid of it. They have shitty warranties, sell substandard cars, and I'm not interested in supporting a socialist union nor a socialist executive branch.
You also have to remember the Toyota "run away car" fiasco the government was perpetuating at the same time as they gave themselves and the UAW controlling stake in GM.
I'd much rather buy a foreign car either made here or not than keep supporting our current socialist policies and the UAW. I can buy a Tundra, and its made a couple hours away in the USA with non-union American workers. That sounds a lot "American" than supporting the UAW and the Federal government which, as I said, shafted the bond holders and non-UAW employees.
The rest if the WORLD is Socialist. I fail to see your logic. That said I have always liked German and then Japanese cars - sports car and sports sedans.
Y'all WHOLLY FORGET the Internationalist Bankers goal of each nation being nothing more than a state with a centralized Global Gov't in which THEY rule by International NGOs. This plan didn't start with Obama, Bush, Clinton or Reagan... It has been pursued since BEFORE there was a USA and I ain't gonna stop until we, the people of the USA regain control of our gov't and the rest of the world following suit.
The entities that control this nation - NOT this Admin - are dictating things/advising the Admin and just as few here "get it" few in this (and previous) Admins see the Big Picture.
I you want and can afford a Nissan GT-R, Porsche, BMW, Lexus or Audi go for it. But to refuse a US car company (a much as a TNC is nowadays) "because of the UAW" is a bit "flighty" to me.
Belmont31R
08-25-12, 21:13
The rest if the WORLD is Socialist. I fail to see your logic. That said I have always liked German and then Japanese cars - sports car and sports sedans.
Y'all WHOLLY FORGET the Internationalist Bankers goal of each nation being nothing more than a state with a centralized Global Gov't in which THEY rule by International NGOs. This plan didn't start with Obama, Bush, Clinton or Reagan... It has been pursued since BEFORE there was a USA and I ain't gonna stop until we, the people of the USA regain control of our gov't and the rest of the world following suit.
The entities that control this nation - NOT this Admin - are dictating things/advising the Admin and just as few here "get it" few in this (and previous) Admins see the Big Picture.
I you want and can afford a Nissan GT-R, Porsche, BMW, Lexus or Audi go for it. But to refuse a US car company (a much as a TNC is nowadays) "because of the UAW" is a bit "flighty" to me.
I'm not sure you understand what I wrote. The government had the normal bankruptcy policy excluded so the bond holders and non-unionized workers got the shaft while giving GM to the UAW and the FedGov.
Normally the bond holders would be paid first because the bonds were backed up with collateral. Instead these guys were told to FO while Obama and the UAW took over the company. If you were a GM employee, and not part of the UAW your pension was taken away. There were several brands which were subsidiaries of GM, and if they were non union they lost of pensions.
I'm not sure why you call that flighty. Out of all the interests in GM's case it was only the FedGov and the UAW who came out with anything. Somehow if you were UAW your pension was guaranteed, and if you were not it went bye bye.
As I said I can buy a Tundra which is made by a non UAW plant a couple hours away. Sounds more "American" to me regardless of which brand is put on the tail gate.
I found this interesting (but a side track from the topic at hand)
-
Chrysler Mulls Ram Production Boost as 1500 Cuts Fuel Use - Businessweek
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-24/chrysler-mulls-boost-to-ram-pickup-output-as-1500-cuts-fuel-use
--
The whole thing was handled completely out of norm with bankruptcy norms. They basically told first in line bond holders to **** off, and gave the company to the UAW and the Federal government. Not to mention the non-UAW workers pensions were taken away while UAW workers were not.
They are also claiming the "bail out" [under tarp] was repaid. If you remember they got TARP money, and then once Obama took office they got several billion as well. What they did is paid the TARP money back with Obama bail out money, and then they put commercials on the air saying they repaid the "loans". The Obama money was basically buying shares in GM which gave them a shit ton of money. Now...if we as tax payers through the government sold the shares we have right now it would be a HUGE loss of billions of dollars because GM stock price has gone down.
The whole thing is so ****ed up I'm surprised to see so many people still chomping at the bit to buy Government/UAW Motors vehicles. They shafted the legitimate bond holders, and non unionized workers, and Obama got the UAW a huge portion of the company as well the government. Its really not much different than buying a government produced car in the old USSR.
I'd never personally buy a Chyrsler, Ford, or GM vehicle. We have a Jeep Liberty right now which was gifted to us, and its the worst vehicle I've ever had. We are waiting on the title to come in the mail so we can get rid of it. They have shitty warranties, sell substandard cars, and I'm not interested in supporting a socialist union nor a socialist executive branch.
You also have to remember the Toyota "run away car" fiasco the government was perpetuating at the same time as they gave themselves and the UAW controlling stake in GM.
I'd much rather buy a foreign car either made here or not than keep supporting our current socialist policies and the UAW. I can buy a Tundra, and its made a couple hours away in the USA with non-union American workers. That sounds a lot "American" than supporting the UAW and the Federal government which, as I said, shafted the bond holders and non-UAW employees.
On top of all that, (maybe this was brought up earlier) chevy is pushing and investing massive amounts of $ in the volt - a $40k electric car - real good for the average working man.:rolleyes:
So our tax $ is invested in chevy, and they use chevy to push their hippy green agenda which, even though people will rally behind it, when its their turn to put their money in - they sing a different tune. So they are once again putting themselves into bankrupcy, but now that the government forced you to invest - they are destroying YOUR wealth. Why would I support that!?
Belmont31R
08-25-12, 22:38
On top of all that, (maybe this was brought up earlier) chevy is pushing and investing massive amounts of $ in the volt - a $40k electric car - real good for the average working man.:rolleyes:
So our tax $ is invested in chevy, and they use chevy to push their hippy green agenda which, even though people will rally behind it, when its their turn to put their money in - they sing a different tune. So they are once again putting themselves into bankrupcy, but now that the government forced you to invest - they are destroying YOUR wealth. Why would I support that!?
If you look at the number of tax breaks, grants, and loans given to GM to produce the volt its about 250k per vehicle. This is the "green" initiative sponsored by the government. Introduce sub par products at huge expense, and subsidize the shit out of it with tax dollars. Obama has burned up billions of tax dollars on "green" companies who went bankrupt.
FWIW I have the same lamentation with "ethanol", and think farm subsidies or requirements to supply ethanol laced gas is just as bad. The same with sugar tariffs so now all our stuff is made with corn based HFCS's.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-26-12, 23:59
Just wanted to facebook status update. Gave the ol middle finger to GM and Chrysler, sold my Ram, and bought a Subaru Forester today. For the first time I feel satisfied after a car purchase.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Image1.jpg
Havnt seen anything, but I just heard on the radio chevy is recalling 250k vehicles. Seems relevant to this thread.
They shut down production again on the Volt for another month for the 2014 Imp.
I'm looking too buy a newer truck. Only GM 2009 nothing newer than that.Silverado or Sierra too replace my 2006 Silverado. Not buying GM or Dodge with bailout money. Leaves Ford F150 maybe or Tundra. My cousin is getting 19.5 in city driving with his 2011 F150 Eco Boost. Since I don't see any German pickups. And Mack does not build any.
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