View Full Version : 308 Tack Driver
I'm looking to pick up a new 308 gas gun. I had a SCAR 17 but was fortunate to unload it in the current climate for a nice profit. I never really fell in love with that gun. I was always looking for something with more accuracy. Although I could do sub MOA with GMM any other ammo was 1.5MOA at best. I understand that it was not intended for a DMR roll.
To start, I have no issue spending SR25 money. I am looking for a DMR type rifle - very accurate (.75MOA or tighter) but could roll into a battle rifle if needed. I am a .75 MOA shooter and can do .5 on good days. I would like a gun accurate enough to learn with.
In pretty much all instances I would build an AR15 to my spec but in the AR10 world I would prefer to buy a built gun.
My short list:
SR25 APC - gold standard but I dont know if the accuracy is there. I routinely hear 1-1.5 MOA but also hear of .66 test targets.
PredatOBR 7.62 - has the benefit of Switchblock like gas block, they used to be supper accurate, cant seem to get good recent intel but they still have a 6 month backorder.
V7 Harbinger - I have a custom Recce built with a V7 barrel and it is .5 MOA shooter. The Harbinger is too light in my opinion at 6.5lbs but it would be easy to add weight and it would be just awesome to have a gun with optics under 9lbs. Not a lot of data on his 308 barrels.
GAP 10 - this is something that gets mentioned over on the Hide a lot. Never seen one in real life and would need to see how much they weight but are supposed to be insanely accurate.
Build a gun - seems like you could throw together a solid AR10 with the right components and send it to someone like Steve at Citizen Arms and it would be a shooter. But then it is a franken gun that you would never get your money out of. There is never an issue selling a Knights or Larue gun for what you paid for it.
Guns I am not looking at:
The LMT MWS - its just too heavy once you add optics. Awesome gun but not what I am looking for
JP lrp-07 - these shoot lights out but I dont think they could be anything other than a bench shooter.
Thoughts? Any guns I am missing?
turnburglar
11-27-20, 12:44
I shoot an accurized AR match almost monthly in the heavy metal division. In fact tomorrow is the first time I am shooting the match with a 556 gun. A few of my observations:
1: 308 gas guns are hard to get better than 1.5 MOA. I had a savage MSR10 in 308 and showed my buddy who is a Green beret with 20 years in. He said their SR25's could never do better. It's not the the guns CANT shoot better than 1.5 moa, its just HARD to do with factory ammo. My other buddy who rocks a home brewed AR10 only shoots hand loads to get sub moa accuracy.
2: 6.5 really is better than 308. As soon as I switched from a 308 to a 6.5 MSR10, my groups shrunk. I could make 1.5 moa all day long with cheap Seller and bellot FMJ, and when I switched to hornady ELDM it could make 1 moa groups at will. I cant share pictures because of my shadow ban on imgur.
3: I had some serious issues dealing with savage. Even though my MSR10 is a tack driver now I will not recommend them as a brand. Out of your list I would personally roll my own, or go with the Larue kit. I have seen a Larue gun in person and it performed very well and the owner had PILES of ammo through it. The other off the rack gun I would l look at is a DDV7. I just have yet to actually meet a KAC owner that could brag about their group size, or do it on command.
I tend to stay away from anything that requires proprietary stuff as much as possible. That ruled out the Savage and S&W M&P10 for me (proprietary charging handle and BCG iirc), not sure about the Larue (never bothered to check to be honest) and things like the DPMS G2 (proprietary everything, not to mention it's a DPMS lol). The KAC has some proprietary parts (bolt and barrel extension, iirc) but in the case of the KAC the benefits are worth it.
IMHO, its very hard to be concerned with weight and get a AR10 gasser. They are beefy by nature. I have MWS in 308 and 6.5cm. My Colt CM is one of the lighter guns like KAC or DD, but its still hefty.
If MOA is a concern, I agree TurnB, the 6.5 is more inherently accurate in my extensive work with both. YMMV. Buy a KAC in 6.5 and celebrate greatness if you have the corn$$pile.
PB
weight should not be a concern here
KAC and LMT websites list roughly a pound between them. If a pound prevents you from looking at one vs another then stick to the 15. My 14yr old son shoots the mws standing. I will never understand this fascination with weight when 99% of the people shoot from a bench
weight should not be a concern here
KAC and LMT websites list roughly a pound between them. If a pound prevents you from looking at one vs another then stick to the 15. My 14yr old son shoots the mws standing. I will never understand this fascination with weight when 99% of the people shoot from a bench
Preach!
weight should not be a concern here
KAC and LMT websites list roughly a pound between them. If a pound prevents you from looking at one vs another then stick to the 15. My 14yr old son shoots the mws standing. I will never understand this fascination with weight when 99% of the people shoot from a bench
Weight is a concern here. I have a list of requirements. One of the requirements is I dont want a gun over 9lbs. Why would I sell one of the lightest weight 308s in the game to replace it with a heavy rifle that I am immediately going to put at least a 1.5lbs of optics on?
The gun will be used to shoot paper and shoot at distance but it will also be used for classes and I have absolutely no desire to carry a 12-13lb riffle around all day especially when I said I have the money to not be forced to do that.
Do you have any experience with any of the rifles listed? Anything else to add? Or are you just going to talk about the one gun that you have that doesn't fill my requirements and your 14yr old likes?
I shoot an accurized AR match almost monthly in the heavy metal division. In fact tomorrow is the first time I am shooting the match with a 556 gun. A few of my observations:
1: 308 gas guns are hard to get better than 1.5 MOA. I had a savage MSR10 in 308 and showed my buddy who is a Green beret with 20 years in. He said their SR25's could never do better. It's not the the guns CANT shoot better than 1.5 moa, its just HARD to do with factory ammo. My other buddy who rocks a home brewed AR10 only shoots hand loads to get sub moa accuracy.
2: 6.5 really is better than 308. As soon as I switched from a 308 to a 6.5 MSR10, my groups shrunk. I could make 1.5 moa all day long with cheap Seller and bellot FMJ, and when I switched to hornady ELDM it could make 1 moa groups at will. I cant share pictures because of my shadow ban on imgur.
3: I had some serious issues dealing with savage. Even though my MSR10 is a tack driver now I will not recommend them as a brand. Out of your list I would personally roll my own, or go with the Larue kit. I have seen a Larue gun in person and it performed very well and the owner had PILES of ammo through it. The other off the rack gun I would l look at is a DDV7. I just have yet to actually meet a KAC owner that could brag about their group size, or do it on command.
I appreciate the info. 6.5 is on list but I am currently sitting on a nice pile of 308 including a lot of GMM. In the current climate I dont want to get into another caliber if I dont have to.
6.5 may be one of the nice options about the Laure and its ability to swap barrels like the MWS (although its toolless on the Larue). I have read of a few getting custom 6.5 barrels for their Larue. He also sells the PredatOBR in 6.5 so an upper or getting a barrel from them may be possible in the future.
At the risk of getting push back...
One more plug for the LMT but with the mlock upper and lightweight barrel. If you don’t like the lightweight barrel from LMT you can send any barrel you prefer and send it here http://www.dwilsonmfg.com/ and he will convert to the mrp pattern. This should get you right at 9lbs or just below.
At the risk of getting push back...
One more plug for the LMT but with the mlock upper and lightweight barrel. If you don’t like the lightweight barrel from LMT you can send any barrel you prefer and send it here http://www.dwilsonmfg.com/ and he will convert to the mrp pattern. This should get you right at 9lbs or just below.
Do you own this config?
ETA - Would be interesting with something like a Proof barrel.
Lawnchair 04
11-28-20, 07:19
I’ve had my sights set on the Daniel defense line of AR10’s, from all the info I can gather they seem reliable and accurate at least the newer generation. May fit the profile you are looking for.
Weight is a concern here. I have a list of requirements. One of the requirements is I dont want a gun over 9lbs. Why would I sell one of the lightest weight 308s in the game to replace it with a heavy rifle that I am immediately going to put at least a 1.5lbs of optics on?
The gun will be used to shoot paper and shoot at distance but it will also be used for classes and I have absolutely no desire to carry a 12-13lb riffle around all day especially when I said I have the money to not be forced to do that.
Do you have any experience with any of the rifles listed? Anything else to add? Or are you just going to talk about the one gun that you have that doesn't fill my requirements and your 14yr old likes?
slowdowns sport, have owned or currently own just about every damn thing made. I'm a whore for platforms and a long history of using them in a variety of places and conditions. I think it's great to train and do the weekend warrior stuff but you'll be the odd man out as most are not doing classes run and gun with 308s and the 308 classes are less run and gun and more about the precision and position.
I'll reiterate what I said, if weight is a consideration, use another platform for intended purpose. To shoot paper and at distance, you don't want a lightweight set up and I'll add, if you are run and gunning with a lighter large frame AR, you will have more difficulty getting on target quickly due to recoil.
and yes, my 14 yr old who ways all of 105 shoots a 20 ss mws prone with no issues. He can also use the other mws with a much shorter barrel properly because he's been instructed on how. Learn to shoot properly before worrying about weight.
Your a stud as is your 14 yr old. But again nothing helpful in your posts.
Your a stud as is your 14 yr old. But again nothing helpful in your posts.
haha, no reading comprehension and pitiful attitude to boot. Sorry if you have reading comp issues and can't understand what's being said here. The problem with you is your snarky attitude and inability to understand that weight has very little to do with what your intended mission is here. Hell, I'll bet you're the kind of cat that when 'running and gunning' in your weekend ninja class, adds all kinds of $hit to make any weight savings on a rig negligible. You know the 'train how you fight' mantra. In all serious, if 1-2lbs is really that much of an issue then I suggest spending your money on a gym membership so that when you do 'run and gun' with a 308, it won't be a problem. Let's break this down again;
My short list:
SR25 APC - gold standard but I dont know if the accuracy is there. I routinely hear 1-1.5 MOA but also hear of .66 test targets. that's news to me and just about everyone that has them as these are considered very accurate and a non accurate one would be an exception. Not the gold standard for gassers but accurate and reliable.
PredatOBR 7.62 - has the benefit of Switchblock like gas block, they used to be supper accurate, cant seem to get good recent intel but they still have a 6 month backorder. head over to snipershide if you can't find intel on these which is odd since a simple google search yields a litany of results
V7 Harbinger - I have a custom Recce built with a V7 barrel and it is .5 MOA shooter. The Harbinger is too light in my opinion at 6.5lbs but it would be easy to add weight and it would be just awesome to have a gun with optics under 9lbs. Not a lot of data on his 308 barrels. too light for your intended purpose as you state and you want to add weight if needed. This is odd considering your choices here. As for the barrel, again head over to the hide or google search as the 308 barrels have the same rep. These are very good barrels
GAP 10 - this is something that gets mentioned over on the Hide a lot. Never seen one in real life and would need to see how much they weight but are supposed to be insanely accurate.outstanding accuracy but not light. Mine consistently shot .4-.6 with fgmm. these are the baseline for accuracy out of large frame ARs. Again, same as sr25 and lmt in weight class. Mine was temperamental with certain ammo and didn't like a lot of ammo
Build a gun - seems like you could throw together a solid AR10 with the right components and send it to someone like Steve at Citizen Arms and it would be a shooter. But then it is a franken gun that you would never get your money out of. There is never an issue selling a Knights or Larue gun for what you paid for it. if starting off building thinking about getting your money back in future sale then why even suggest this? Most people use their set ups as tools, shoot them a lot and don't build to sell. This is another things I'll never understand. Build it to your specs, accuratize it and enjoy it.
Guns I am not looking at:
The LMT MWS - its just too heavy once you add optics. Awesome gun but not what I am looking for 1lb difference between this and sr25 as stated. not an issue for most men
JP lrp-07 - these shoot lights out but I dont think they could be anything other than a bench shooter. hated mine, even more finicky with ammo that my GAP. Not more accurate than the mws or sr25 from my own experience but that may vary with rifle. Consistency is key and not sure JP is there. Very tight tolerances so bear that in mind . Mine liked a particular load a friend had made for me after we tested various ammo. One of the few rifles I do not regret selling and was one of my first so new production may be somewhat different but doubt it.
so back to original messaging, WEIGHT DOESN'T MATTER as weight absorbs recoil and depending on barrel length (you said run and gun) you may experience more of it with shorter lighter barrel and set up. If you are not 'running and gunning' more than bench and shooting for distance, lightweight matters little and per your own comment, 6.5lbs is too light and 9lbs is too heavy.
my recommendation is do a grendel or ARC
Food for thought, RE: reporting posts...
If the gouge is valid, just because it’s not what you wanted to hear doesn’t mean it violates policy.
Failure2Stop
11-30-20, 09:01
SR25 APC - gold standard but I dont know if the accuracy is there. I routinely hear 1-1.5 MOA but also hear of .66 test targets.
KAC requires a 1.1 MOA or better confirmation with 175 or 168gr match ammo for an APC to go out the door. The ACC (lightweight hammer forged chrome lined barrel) must meet 1.5 MOA or better.
Getting the barrel worn in a little and maintained well will improve average dispersion in both. Common user experience after break-in and finding what ammo the gun like puts APC's at around 0.8 average.
KAC requires a 1.1 MOA or better confirmation with 175 or 168gr match ammo for an APC to go out the door. The ACC (lightweight hammer forged chrome lined barrel) must meet 1.5 MOA or better.
Getting the barrel worn in a little and maintained well will improve average dispersion in both. Common user experience after break-in and finding what ammo the gun like puts APC's at around 0.8 average.
... and that would be with the option of going through different available ammo if limited to production rounds.
Handloads might get you closer, quicker.
OP can want perfection and expect it to cost and weigh nothing. I want to be the Queen of England, but I'm not expecting to be this lifetime.
... and that would be with the option of going through different available ammo if limited to production rounds.
Handloads might get you closer, quicker.
OP can want perfection and expect it to cost and weigh nothing. I want to be the Queen of England, but I'm not expecting to be this lifetime.
I think I need to clarify. Several years ago I shot a OBR 7.62. It was a .5 MOA rifle. I was amazed. This was a gun back before Larue started to make their own barrels. I had looked into them but the wait time was too long and I didn't want to spend that much cash. At the time it seemed awesome to get that level of accuracy out of a gas gun. I have talked with a few builders in the last year and they have said that in the last few years larue barrels have been inconsistent. Its a total mixed bag with 1.75 MOA with match down to below .5. Their point being, it's not worth the wait or money if you get one of the crappy barrels.
I was given the scar for work I did for a client. I asked for a SR25, instead he gave me a scar with a KDG rail and Geissele trigger. It was a nice gun and performed well. With GMM it was sub moa rifle and with m80 it was 2-3 moa. Perfectly acceptable for what it is. Never really liked the gun. The recoil is a little weird. Its very clacky and the ergo are kind of bulky. During the current climate I was able to sell it for far more than a new gun. It had a bunch of mags, spare parts, and a little ammo in the deal.
So now I am on the hunt for a replacement. The scar was a lightweight rifle. I would like something in that same weight range but in an ar10 platform. I need it to handle gas well as I will shoot it suppressed and unsuppressed. The Larue does this with their switchblock like gas block. The SR does this being properly ported and have been told it solid unless you are using a can with a ton of back pressure.
I may hunt with it in the future but currently being on the east coast I primarily use 300 blk but have take a whitetail with the scar. I would also like the option to throw a 6.5 upper on it in the future.
So I am looking for a lightweight gun that is not over gassed that is hopefully more accurate than the scar with match ammo. SR seems to fit that bill as does the Larue but to get any recent data on the newer (especially after the divorce when Larue opened the door to quick money making) PredatOBR is difficult.
Clubmanager
12-11-20, 10:34
I have never held one or know about the accuracy but POF supposedly has the lightest AR10’s out there. I have an LMT MWS and shoot standing no problem. I think you should reconsider your position vis a vis the brand offerings. Love mine; have had PWS MK216 (an amazing weapon especially for the money) and SCAR17s so my sample size is admittedly slim.
Still, with the MWS I was hitting plates at 340 yards in the cold/wind from a shaky tripod with relative ease out of the 16” barrel. Just sayin’
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