View Full Version : SBR Accuracy
Press Check
12-01-20, 23:51
I've owned an 11.5" since 2014, and between shooting steel targets and taking courses, I have never sat down, put the rifle on a rest, and put together a group on paper until recently. I printed 3" groups at 50m, which I thought was acceptable, but just wanted to drop in and ask if I should expect more.
Barrel length does not affect accuracy, especially at 50m. Your groups are a smidge under 6 MOA, which most people would find unacceptable from an AR.
BUT there are many variables that can come into play. Optic/mount, rest, ammunition, ability, etc.
If the accuracy is acceptable to you, that is all that matters.
I refuse to own anything aside a pistol, shotgun, or sentimental piece, that will not hold 2moa.
At 100 yds, off a rest with irons and XM193, all the different barrel lengths I own - 10.3”, 11.5, 14.5”, 16” and 20” all will shoot pretty much the same - all averaging between 2MOA and 4MOA, with the real limiting factor being my eyesight, which is not very good.
The few times I’ve tried my 11.5” with better ammo, it has turned out groups in the 1MOA range.
At longer ranges bullets fired out of a short barrel are going to exhibit more drop and be more susceptible to wind, so they might appear to exhibit less accuracy but it’s really due to the lower velocity of the projectile, not short barrels being inherently less accurate.
I've owned an 11.5" since 2014, and between shooting steel targets and taking courses, I have never sat down, put the rifle on a rest, and put together a group on paper until recently. I printed 3" groups at 50m, which I thought was acceptable, but just wanted to drop in and ask if I should expect more.
Others already clarified the barrel length and accuracy thing so I’ll leave that alone. What was your setup though? 3” at 50 is not good, especially since the difference between 50 and 100 is often more than just double IME.
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^^Absolutely this.
What ammo?
My three SBR length pistols (10.3"/11.5") all shoot 2 to 2.5 MOA with 77 gr. OTM.
I would be completely dissatisfied with a 6 MOA shorty, I can do better at 100 yds. with most of my pistols/handguns.
Interesting how different people approach their carbines. The very first thing I do is get a good 100 yard zero and accuracy baseline before anything else.
Almost any decent barrel will shoot 2 MOA or so, like gajin said, with good ammo.
I've owned an 11.5" since 2014, and between shooting steel targets and taking courses, I have never sat down, put the rifle on a rest, and put together a group on paper until recently. I printed 3" groups at 50m, which I thought was acceptable, but just wanted to drop in and ask if I should expect more.
I've done the same with different rifles over the years, just went to check accuracy. These days I still do every once and a while, but experience has me check to ensure everything is clean and tight before I go.
In the past have shot 100 yard groups 1-2 MOA with irons then at one range session 4-5 MOA. Checked and cleaned everything to see what was wrong. One time rear BUIS was loose while another hanguard was loose. Not saying that's your issue, or you even have an issue, but worth a check before you go.
everready73
12-02-20, 10:00
Is that with a dot, or irons? Maybe try with a magnified optic, but 6 inches at 100 yards is not acceptable to me.
I would try some decent ammo as well. Even plinking ammo should shoot better than that from most guns.
If you determine it is the barrel Black River tactical makes some nice 11.5 barrels. Sionics as well but their inventory is spotty right now
My BA 11.5" will do 1.5" at 100yds with 62gr hpbt or 55gr hornady fmj and TAC powder. That is with my reloads. I have never shot ANY commercial ammo in the last 20 years. That is my absolute max I will allow any of my rifles. Same ammo in my bolt guns shoot a .75"-1" groups.
davidjinks
12-03-20, 11:04
Depending on the brand of M193 I am using, with my LE6933 I can hold roughly 2-2.5”. With MK262 and an LPVO I will hold 1.5-2”. Distance is 100 yards off a bench/bag for support.
PPU M193 is a more accurate round in the rifles I use, IMI and Federal M193 are meh at best.
I've owned an 11.5" since 2014, and between shooting steel targets and taking courses, I have never sat down, put the rifle on a rest, and put together a group on paper until recently. I printed 3" groups at 50m, which I thought was acceptable, but just wanted to drop in and ask if I should expect more.
3” at 50 yds from a bench sounds like either an eyesight or technique problem (no offense intended). To me that’s not very accurate, but if it’s only a home defense rifle that’s well within minute-of-man. My DD 10.3” will do about half that with decent ammo (62 BTHP handloads), but I’ve never put a LPVO on it and truly accuracy tested it. My dad’s 12.5” BCM is about the same (both setups have a red dot).
Torquetard
12-03-20, 17:50
I got a 10.5 that will shoot Red Army 223 into groups on steel @ 220 yards that I can cover with my fist .
I've owned an 11.5" since 2014, and between shooting steel targets and taking courses, I have never sat down, put the rifle on a rest, and put together a group on paper until recently. I printed 3" groups at 50m, which I thought was acceptable, but just wanted to drop in and ask if I should expect more.
Well whether it was acceptable or not would depend upon what ammo you used, what sights you used, and and how well you can hold it still in rest.
bamashooter
12-04-20, 06:52
I've owned an 11.5" since 2014, and between shooting steel targets and taking courses, I have never sat down, put the rifle on a rest, and put together a group on paper until recently. I printed 3" groups at 50m, which I thought was acceptable, but just wanted to drop in and ask if I should expect more.
Just depends on what you expect from yourself. Some may find it fine if especially considering it that would be the maximum range at which you'd expect to engage a target. I would want more; especially benched and supported. My pistols range from 8.5" - 11.5". All 5.56 and one 300 blk. Prism scopes, red dots, 2 hard sights only All zeroed at 50m with a rest. Not a whole bunch of effort to group quarter-size (25 cent piece). I personally feel the primary contributor to the decent accuracy is the assorted trigger upgrades. I'm a pretty decent shot but a really good trigger can make a big difference.
Same deal with my carbines. I have one 20" scoped with a 4-12. It's zeroed at 100m. Mostly between a nickel and a quarter. All of these are with basic 55 or 62 grain ammunition. Primarily PMC X-TAC stuff.
ViniVidivici
12-05-20, 21:32
OP, you should expect more out of the gun.
What kind of ammo, what rest/position?
Put some match grade ammo in, get into a good prone supported w/ sandbags, take your time, get in the bubble, apply those 4 fundamentals and see what it can do at 100.
It's probably just a case of you not being used to shooting it this way. Shortys can be a little jumpy, when you're going for groups.
I have a cheap as dirt BCA 11.5" 1/8 with 1,000 ends through it that'll do under 3 MOA with my hand loads, and hit a B8 every time at 200yd. With irons.
All about the ammo and applying the fundamentals, all things being equal.
If I were the OP I’d definitely try it at 100yds and compare. It’s not uncommon for me to shoot groups at 100 yds that are, relatively speaking, better than what I shoot at 50yds, particularly when I’m shooting with irons. Not sure why this occurs but it does. Maybe a case of “aim small, miss small”?
It could just be garbage ammo. I tested some “AR 5.56 INDEPENDENCE” 55gr ammo in MGL in one of my carbines. It shoots good 69-77gr stuff at ~1.25-1.5 MOA. Hornady 55gr grows to ~3 MOA. Not the best, but fine for its role. I only use 55gr for training anyway. The Independence ammo though, a whopping 7 MOA.
Buy or load some nice ammo and I bet it shoots better. It's hard to shoot just about any barrel with good ammo and do 6MOA.
PB
It could just be garbage ammo. I tested some “AR 5.56 INDEPENDENCE” 55gr ammo in MGL in one of my carbines. It shoots good 69-77gr stuff at ~1.25-1.5 MOA. Hornady 55gr grows to ~3 MOA. Not the best, but fine for its role. I only use 55gr for training anyway. The Independence ammo though, a whopping 7 MOA.
I'm no SME but I would guess this. I have a MCX that for whatever reason hates federal xm193. prints like OP stated 3" at 50. but if i feed it anything else its great, sub 1.5" at 100y with mk262 or other nice loads in the heavier weights.
morbidbattlecry
12-06-20, 20:55
I've owned an 11.5" since 2014, and between shooting steel targets and taking courses, I have never sat down, put the rifle on a rest, and put together a group on paper until recently. I printed 3" groups at 50m, which I thought was acceptable, but just wanted to drop in and ask if I should expect more.
Who made the barrel? The ammo? What optic? Who made the gun in general? This is 2020 and every retard in the world can through the cheapest parts together then wonder why it doesn't shoot.
In general shorter barrels tend to be more accurate because they are stiffer.
Press Check
12-06-20, 21:33
The gun is a BCM Recce 11, although I don't think it was called a Recce 11 when I purchased it.
The only thing that's changed is the rail from the KMR to MCMR, and the trigger is a Geissele SD-E. Atop sits an Aimpoint T2, the ammo is handloaded (24gr H335, Hornady 55gr V-Max), and the gun was rested on a Caldwell bag.
ViniVidivici
12-06-20, 22:30
Wow. If someone handed me that gun, barring anything wierd with it, I'd expect 2, maybe 3 MOA at worst, with good ammo.
I know 24.5 gr of H335 is what I load for my 55 gr stuff (Hornady SP).
I'm assuming your 24 gr is the result of a work up, in another gun?
Shoot it at 100, and try a different, known match grade load. Some guns are picky, but I would say that combo should be shooting tighter than 3" at 50 yards.
The gun is a BCM Recce 11, although I don't think it was called a Recce 11 when I purchased it.
The only thing that's changed is the rail from the KMR to MCMR, and the trigger is a Geissele SD-E. Atop sits an Aimpoint T2, the ammo is handloaded (24gr H335, Hornady 55gr V-Max), and the gun was rested on a Caldwell bag.
Red dots aren’t great for grouping but you should definitely be able to print better groups between a T-2 and SD-C. How many rounds through it?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The gun is a BCM Recce 11, although I don't think it was called a Recce 11 when I purchased it.
The only thing that's changed is the rail from the KMR to MCMR, and the trigger is a Geissele SD-E. Atop sits an Aimpoint T2, the ammo is handloaded (24gr H335, Hornady 55gr V-Max), and the gun was rested on a Caldwell bag.
OP, the process of elimination will help your troubleshooting.
Switch to factory ammo for the time being. 55gr Wolf Gold is probably adequate, cheapish, and available.
You don’t mention if you have other ARs or rifles. What kind of groups are you getting with them? Can you ask a buddy to shoot your BCM and see if he has the same results?
Finally, inspect the rifle, particularly the upper, to see if anything is loose, worn or broken.
...
In general shorter barrels tend to be more accurate because they are stiffer.
Shorter barrels have the potential to be more accurate because they are stiffer given equal profiles.
But the problem is that some companies don’t put enough effort and care in the bores in their short barrels, because they figure most people would only use them at short distances. Obviously, not all manufacturers, and the trend is going away as short barrels have become more popular and people expect more out of them.
Buy or load some nice ammo and I bet it shoots better. It's hard to shoot just about any barrel with good ammo and do 6MOA.
PB
This.
FYI OP if you have 'mil spec' ammo their specifications are:
SS109/m855: 4MOA
m193: 2MOA
So probably not the upper if you're shooting those rounds and not exceeding the specified accuracy.
whoreticulture
01-02-21, 23:14
lwrc 10.5 with a nightforce 4-14x50 I can get
4 inch groups at 330meters easy
55grain fmj of whatevers
3" tight with 75gr hornady
I have a bunch of builds and individual barrels that John Noveske made when he was around, or at least they were made under his guidance while he was alive. The short barrels are as accurate as the longer barrels from everything I can tell.
Shoot it at 100, and try a different, known match grade load. Some guns are picky, but I would say that combo should be shooting tighter than 3" at 50 yards.
Shoot it at 100 with off the shelf ammo and a known good mounted scope, then let someone else do the same. There are just too many variables with home cooked ammo and a RDO.
vicious_cb
01-03-21, 14:09
Here is a bit of advice about accuracy: Ignore people talking about their group sizes on the internet. Its akin to people talking about their dick size, everyone is a sub MOA stud on the internet.
Your first hint of bullsh*t is people talking about shooting 1-2 MOA with M193. If someone like Molon can't get M193 to group better than 3 MOA then you can imagine the validity of random people on the internet.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/MOLON/Attack%20of%20the%20M193%20Clones_files/e4ckmi2y36.jpg
Here is a bit of advice about accuracy: Ignore people talking about their group sizes on the internet. Its akin to people talking about their dick size, everyone is a sub MOA stud on the internet.
Your first hint of bullsh*t is people talking about shooting 1-2 MOA with M193. If someone like Molon can't get M193 to group better than 3 MOA then you can imagine the validity of random people on the internet.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/MOLON/Attack%20of%20the%20M193%20Clones_files/e4ckmi2y36.jpg
100% yes.
Guys claiming to get submoa with their generic ammo is garbage. Ammo manufacturers are not supplying premium ammo and pretending its range fodder.
Molon's data is wonderful as it is statistically relevant with true n of 10 data points, repeated 3 times each, and aggregated. I love his dedication to providing true valid expectations for a given load and rifle combination. When applied, I quickly realized that I don't own any rifle that is truly MOA and my shooting and reloading precision requires fine tuning. The bottom line? Shoot more than 3 or 5 rounds. Do it multiple times. Evaluate with an unbiased eye.
Molon's data is wonderful as it is statistically relevant with true n of 10 data points, repeated 3 times each, and aggregated. I love his dedication to providing true valid expectations for a given load and rifle combination. When applied, I quickly realized that I don't own any rifle that is truly MOA and my shooting and reloading precision requires fine tuning. The bottom line? Shoot more than 3 or 5 rounds. Do it multiple times. Evaluate with an unbiased eye.
Keeping track of group averages over time is good. But you can get rather good approximations of larger groups by extrapolating from 3 or 5 shot groups. Larue posted this a while ago and I’ve found it is a pretty good predictor of dispersion over larger sets of shots.
https://i.ibb.co/BGD8nCZ/D628-BDA7-9-C8-E-4-E7-C-8722-F0-D632739-C46.jpg
Here is a bit of advice about accuracy: Ignore people talking about their group sizes on the internet. Its akin to people talking about their dick size, everyone is a sub MOA stud on the internet.
Your first hint of bullsh*t is people talking about shooting 1-2 MOA with M193. If someone like Molon can't get M193 to group better than 3 MOA then you can imagine the validity of random people on the internet.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/MOLON/Attack%20of%20the%20M193%20Clones_files/e4ckmi2y36.jpg
Absolutely, unequivocally the most accurate statement I have seen on the erronet in a long time. Should be a sticky.
Cheers, Steve
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