Ideal self defense sights? (M&P)

[Magsz]

Hey guys, i added in the title that these sights would be going on an M&P but honestly, this is a rather generic question.

I would like to get some feedback from people who have fired far more rounds than i have, possibly under duress or in self defense. I am looking at purchasing some new sights for both my full size M&P and my M&P compact carry pistol.

As it currently stands, i am using XS big dots on the full size and the standard factory sights on the compact. I have blacked out the white dots on the compact and performed toddG's ghetto fabulous home made fibreoptic style front sight post modification. :D

I was thinking about going to a fiber optic front and a solid rear, ie no dots. I was wondering if this optic is suitable for self defense use or if they are purely"gamer" sights? How durable are these things and also, are they useful at all in low light situations? I am well aware of the fact that should i ever need to draw and fire my pistol in defense of my life or my loved ones it will most likely be during the night.

The reason behind my desire to change is because obam...wait..just kidding!

No, seriously, the reason why id like to try something different is because of the following findings at the range.

I am extremely precise with my compact which has the modified factory sights.

I am however, much faster with the XS sights. What i dont like about the XS sights is that i dont find them to be precise at all. Yes, ive watched the youtube video and no, i dont care. I am simply not a precise shooter with them.

I find it much easier to lay down groups with the modified factory sights than i do with the xs sights.

I also believe that i can train myself to be fast with factory sights but i cannot train myself to be precise with the XS sights.

So, having said all of this and given you guys the backstory behind my shortcomings. What can you fine gents recommend?

[Robb Jensen]

I highly recommend Warren night sights. I like the straight eight style and the mix style. The mix has a plain black rear sight and a green tritium dot w/white outline in the front sight. The straight eight has a yellow dot at 6 o'clock under the notch of the rear sight w/o a white outline and the front is just like on the mix.

http://www.warrentactical.com/

[Jay Cunningham]

I concur with Robb's recommendation. I would also recommend the Heinie sights.

[rob_s]

I highly recommend Warren night sights. I like... ...a plain black rear sight and a green tritium dot w/white outline in the front sight.

All my carry guns are setup this way, or with something of a close approximation (Warren or 10-8 rears).

Magsz, re: fiber optic fronts...
I put one on my girlfriend's Glock 19, along with the same Warren rear I use on mine. For competition use I LOVE this front sight! In bright daylight the thing glows like the dot from an Aimpoint and it is very clearly and easily visible.

In reduced light, however, it reverts back to being a basic black sight with a barely visible red dot in the middle. While not the end of the world, it doesn't actually help anything either.

[matthewdanger]

I have been using Warren Tac Sevigny Carry sights with the figure eight style trits on my Glocks. They are excellent - fast, crisp, accurate.

Heinies are great too, especially when the rear notch is opened up a bit.

I don't care for fiber optic sights very much due to durability issues. Granted, I haven't used many different brands but the fiber optic tubes seem to easily lost or broken.

[John_Wayne777]

Warren's 2 dot or 3 dot sights are what I run on my M&P's and Glocks. They are the best iron sights I've ever tried.

[rob_s]

I haven't broken my one single FO sight, but I always was concerned about the durability as well. In fairness the ones that I've seen "break" have been operator error like changing out the tube for another color and not seating it properly, or not installing the front sight correctly to begin with (which has nothing to do with the FO).

[mpardun]

I have a set of each and also like Lam's 10-8 with a triji front.

[Spleen]

Where can I send a pistol to have Warren sights installed?

[Gingerkid]

I really like my Ameriglo Operators... small yellow rear, with larger green front and white outline. Designed specifically for the M&P.

I don't have pictures with them on my M&P laying around, but here is Mr Bowie's website. I believe he'll install them free if you buy the sights from him.

http://bowietacticalconcepts.com/ameriglobowietacticalmandpSights.html

[Dedpoet]

I don't have pictures with them on my M&P laying around, but here is Mr Bowie's website. I believe he'll install them free if you buy the sights from him.

http://bowietacticalconcepts.com/ameriglobowietacticalmandpSights.html

He'll also install provided sights for free on a gun he is working on. One of mine is there now for trigger work and installation of a 10-8 rear and FO front that I provided and that's what he told me. Note his website lists a 16 week wait. We'll see how accurate that is.

[RWK]

Hey guys, i added in the title that these sights would be going on an M&P but honestly, this is a rather generic question.

I would like to get some feedback from people who have fired far more rounds than i have, possibly under duress or in self defense. I am looking at purchasing some new sights for both my full size M&P and my M&P compact carry pistol.

As it currently stands, i am using XS big dots on the full size and the standard factory sights on the compact. I have blacked out the white dots on the compact and performed toddG's ghetto fabulous home made fibreoptic style front sight post modification. :D

I was thinking about going to a fiber optic front and a solid rear, ie no dots. I was wondering if this optic is suitable for self defense use or if they are purely"gamer" sights? How durable are these things and also, are they useful at all in low light situations? I am well aware of the fact that should i ever need to draw and fire my pistol in defense of my life or my loved ones it will most likely be during the night.

The reason behind my desire to change is because obam...wait..just kidding!

No, seriously, the reason why id like to try something different is because of the following findings at the range.

I am extremely precise with my compact which has the modified factory sights.

I am however, much faster with the XS sights. What i dont like about the XS sights is that i dont find them to be precise at all. Yes, ive watched the youtube video and no, i dont care. I am simply not a precise shooter with them.

I find it much easier to lay down groups with the modified factory sights than i do with the xs sights.

I also believe that i can train myself to be fast with factory sights but i cannot train myself to be precise with the XS sights.

So, having said all of this and given you guys the backstory behind my shortcomings. What can you fine gents recommend?

I use Heinie StraightEight's: https://www.heinie.com/cart/product_info.php?products_id=171&osCsid=98dbd40ee8a73b52398bf3aa9e06b51a. I've also used them on Glocks for several years. Very quick to to acquire a sight picture and the M&P sights are the same height as the factory S&W sights. I do not like fiber optic sights - seen and been told of too many breakages, inserts falling out, etc.

[DM-SC]

I haven't broken my one single FO sight, but I always was concerned about the durability as well. In fairness the ones that I've seen "break" have been operator error like changing out the tube for another color and not seating it properly, or not installing the front sight correctly to begin with (which has nothing to do with the FO).

I've been running the a Dawson FO front sight on my G34 for 7-8 years...still using the original FO rod.

This is my IDPA gun. It's been shot the snot out of, banged into too many stage props to count and, it's been dropped on the ground (empty gun during a stage where we shot our primary dry and then switched to a provided revolver)!

[Magsz]

One of the things that ive read about Dawson Precision sights is that IF the FO rod falls you you can still use the rest of the steel construction as a rudimentary front post. Is that true?

I think at this point i may put some "gamer" sights, ie an FO front onto my full size M&P9 since i dont carry that and ill go with either the warren or the henie combos.

I dont know if this has any bearing on anything but i want to ask anyway. I am nearsighted, very...nearsighted. Will either of these sights suit my shooting ability better or does it not even matter? I know, thats a strange questions.

Thanks for the help thus far guys.

[rob_s]

One warning on the Warrens...

I put them on my Glock car gun. The reason I have a Glock in the car is that it's cheap and doesn't rust. The warrens, however, DO rust and I opened up the center console one day to find a nice brown powder on the sight. Not blaming the product, just be sure of what your needs are and be sure to keep up with oiling them. They are not as rust-proof as the rest of the gun they are on in my case.

[Magsz]

Rob,

I live down here in South Florida as well so rust is a pretty big issue. Im currently looking at getting my M&P's refinished because they tend to rust if i dont oil them every single day.

Thanks for the heads up, i will definitely take that into consideration.

[NCPatrolAR]

Each of my personal M&Ps have a factory front tritium sight and one of Dan Burwell's rear sights with a single tritium insert.

[theblackknight]

I really like my Ameriglo Operators... small yellow rear, with larger green front and white outline. Designed specifically for the M&P.

I don't have pictures with them on my M&P laying around, but here is Mr Bowie's website. I believe he'll install them free if you buy the sights from him.

http://bowietacticalconcepts.com/ameriglobowietacticalmandpSights.html

Ill 2nd these! I Have the green on green classic set. The wider rear sight notch is great for speed.

[98z28]

They don't come out until February, but Ameriglo's Pro Glo front sight for the M&P with a 10-8/Heinie/Burwell/Warren/etc. rear (I prefer the straight eight style set-up with a single tritium in the rear) could be a real winner. Mimmicks ToddG's setup (which I really like), but hopefully in a more permanent way.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=20370

[Magsz]

98, you are referring to the ameriglo front that wont be out until February?

[98z28]

Yes, sorry for the confusion. The Ameriglo Pro Glo front sight for the M&P is supposed to be released Feb. 2009, not 2008. That is the sight I am referring to.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm not a sight snob. What comes with them is plenty good enough. I just black out the dots on the rear sight. I am old school and I want 100% focus on the front sight when precision is required.

For most of the use that I need my M&Ps, no sights are necessary. Point shooting will get it done.

[rob_s]

I'm not a sight snob.

Thereby implying that everyone else that posted in the thread is? :confused:

[Spooky130]

I'm not a sight snob. What comes with them is plenty good enough. I just black out the dots on the rear sight. I am old school and I want 100% focus on the front sight when precision is required.

For most of the use that I need my M&Ps, no sights are necessary. Point shooting will get it done.

I thought the same thing until I went to a Vickers class and shot at night for the first time. It is a little challenging, to say the least, to hit something at night without some form of aiming reference, even with the techniques Vickers teaches. After that I bought myself some night sights - and have thought about the Crimson Trace grips as well.

Spooky

[ToddG]

Quick answer: Warren 2-dot (dot over dot, aka "Straight 8" which I think is TM'd by Heinie) with some day-glow orange tape surrounding the tritium dot on the front sight. See here. (http://pistol-training.com/archives/376)

Typical windbag answer:

Fiber optic sights are not ideal for anything that may involve low light shooting. They're cool as can be when it's bright but between their fragility and their invisibility in low light, I'd say no for a carry/defense/duty gun.

I'm not a fan of the "front dot only" approach. While it works great in normal lighting and works pretty well in a lot of low light situations, there are some light environments where it simply won't work. Range conditions, even during low light practice, simply do not replicate the kind of variable degrees of light and shadow that might exist as you move around. It's quite possible that your target may not be in the same light as you. In situations where light is coming from weird angles or there is very little ambient light having just a front dot might not be enough. For example, have a really strong light shining on your face in an otherwise dark environment, but from an angle that it won't also light up your sights ... the front dot only doesn't work very well. Folks who opt for the 1-dot approach tend to do so because they claim it improves their daylight shooting (less "distraction" on the rear sight).

Most people will get the best precision in low light using a 3-dot sight system. With three dots, you get both vertical and horizontal verification of your sight alignment.

However, when you start to incorporate speed into the mix, the 3-dot system starts to show some weaknesses. It can take time to get everything lined up properly and the fact is that the more precision a sight system allows, the more time a lot of people spend trying to get that much precision even when it's not needed (this is the true secret to why some people think the XS big dot is "faster"). Also, on most stock night sights, the rear sights are as powerful as the front so you've got two bright lights closer to your eyes than the one light on your front sight ... this can range anywhere from "distracting" to "I can't find my front sight" depending on the sights, sight radius, ambient lighting, shooter skill level, and probably to some extent eyesight as well.

That's why the 2-dot (one front, and one at the 6 o'clock position on the rear) night sights are popular with a lot of people. With the Warrens, for instance, the rear dot is smaller, dimmer, and a different color ... it's essentially impossible to get the dull orange rear dot mixed up with the bright green front dot. You get a reasonable amount of visual verification of sight alignment, especially horizontal alignment. You will see more vertical stringing than with 3-dot sights (in general) but the speed and intuitive acquisition offset that imho.

As for why Warrens compared to other similar 2-dot setups, the notch design is unique in providing both sharp edges for alignment while having a wide enough square-style (but not truly square) notch for maximizing speed; and, the outer profile of the sights provides a better view of down range.

(as an fyi, Warren made a change to their finish vendor in mid-'08 due to the problems people were reporting about corrosion)

[Alpha Sierra]

[
Folks who opt for the 1-dot approach tend to do so because they claim it improves their daylight shooting (less "distraction" on the rear sight).
It's not a claim. It is a fact, for me at least.

[Alpha Sierra]

It is a little challenging, to say the least, to hit something at night without some form of aiming reference

Which is why I train and practice point shooting as part of the tool box.

[John_Wayne777]

In situations where light is coming from weird angles or there is very little ambient light having just a front dot might not be enough.


Indeed.

When I started using Warren sights there were no night sights available for the M&P. As soon as he released rear night sights I ditched the flat black sights and upgraded.

I could make hits without the rear sight having any tritium in it, but there was a lot of guess work involved. The rear tritium dot is a MUCH better way to go.



However, when you start to incorporate speed into the mix, the 3-dot system starts to show some weaknesses. It can take time to get everything lined up properly and the fact is that the more precision a sight system allows, the more time a lot of people spend trying to get that much precision even when it's not needed (this is the true secret to why some people think the XS big dot is "faster"). Also, on most stock night sights, the rear sights are as powerful as the front so you've got two bright lights closer to your eyes than the one light on your front sight ... this can range anywhere from "distracting" to "I can't find my front sight" depending on the sights, sight radius, ambient lighting, shooter skill level, and probably to some extent eyesight as well.


The Warren three dots might be an exception to that, in my opinion. He uses two subdued tritium dots in the rear and that draws your eye naturally to the brighter and bigger front sight. I haven't seen a speed disadvantage using the Warren arrangement, but I'm not a speed demon with a handgun anyway.