View Full Version : NEW SPR TROUBLE ON FIRST RANGE TRIP. UPDATE IN OP.
Straight Shooter
01-09-21, 19:35
Ok Gents- need help & advice.
Had a 20" rifle built by a local 'smith back in March I think. Took it to range next day, slow fired 60 rounds to check function, hung up a couple times in chambering, but was ok otherwise. Rifle was put in safe until 4JAN21.
You can find all the details of the rifle in the Custom forum under the title After 5 Years...the Precious.
So, had first class Match Ammo, several different brands of mags, from 10,20 & 30 rounds..all mags have been vetted in two other rifles for years.
Here is what happened. Upon first loading the first mag...failure to chamber, bolt lacked about 1/2 inch or so closing. Hit forward assist, closed bolt...CLICK. Took out the round, small indent on primer. This happened 3 times in a row.
Took out the National Match bcg..cleaned it thoroughly, then rifle would fire. BCG felt very sluggish. Was a cold windy day, and at this point was lubed with Ballistol after cleaning the bcg.
Several more FTF & FTF after this with several known mags & Match ammo from IMI & Black Hills.
So, ruling out mags & ammo...Im think the bcg is the culprit, but dont know how or why. I cannot give out accuracy results yet, due to the windy conditions of the day and my frustration at the moment with the gun.
So- advice & opinion needed here ,and thanks very much in advance.
UPDATE 10FEB21:
PROBLEM SOLVED.
Installed a David Tubb 42 coil Chrome Silicon recoil spring in rifle.
Hit the range this morning...rifle functions & runs now like a scalded ape. Did about 25 lock back tests on about 8 different type of mags..100%.
Chambered & fed 100% with 150 rounds. Threw all brass into a ballcap size area at 4:30 using MEN193.
Really tested the rifle as much as I could & am now satisfied that it was a weak, or simply not strong enough RS to run the bigger, heavier NM bcg. Recoil was brisk and snappy, chambering was very solid. So, I am happy now to move on to next step of accuracy testing- which I will report back on here whenever that happens.
To ALL who helped & made suggestions & ideas..except that one asshole in Texas...THANK YOU so much.
SHOUT OUT TO SOTAR-THANK YOU SIR!
Only downside to the todays range trip is I broke the FP on my Gen 4 G19..thats my main carry/SD gun too. Praise God it happened on the range..less than 50 rounds in. Got others to use while new FP's come in.
Do you have a “go/no gauge” to check headspace?
If the BCG feels sluggish it might be the new gas rings. I had to hand rack a new bolt a bunch to get it to finally work.
Try a different BCG?
Straight Shooter
01-09-21, 20:33
Do you have a “go/no gauge” to check headspace?
If the BCG feels sluggish it might be the new gas rings. I had to hand rack a new bolt a bunch to get it to finally work.
Try a different BCG?
No sir..no gauges. BUT..the rifle was professionally assembled & Mike at Criterion personally headspaced the bolt to the barrel, for what thats worth.
TOM....could be, but Ive never felt an AR this sluggish. Im really concerened to NM bcg is gonna have to go, but Ill wait & see. So far, the rifle has under 100 rounds.
Definitely bring a known good BCG for trouble shooting next time.
Check and lube the gas rings, keep a new BCG very well lubed for the first few hundred rounds.
Check gas tube alignment.
Check for hammer / carrier drag.
Straight Shooter
01-10-21, 06:23
Definitely bring a known good BCG for trouble shooting next time.
Check and lube the gas rings, keep a new BCG very well lubed for the first few hundred rounds.
Check gas tube alignment.
Check for hammer / carrier drag.
Good info- how do I check for hammer/carrier drag?
bamashooter
01-10-21, 08:34
While you haven't much to do, do this til you pass out:
Regularly lube the bcg and charge / dry fire a zillion times. Make sure the small gas rings remain wet. Every 25-30 or so remove the bcg and check for wear of its externals and within the upper.
With the lower, lightly lube the trigger assembly. Dry fire it a zillion times while either holding the hammer during movement or padding the rcvr where it would impact to prevent damage to the aluminum.
Hopefully, sooner rather than later, you'll notice a difference. If you do, execute a grin and keep doing for about another 10 minutes on each assembly.
The highest level of success can be achieved while doing this watching Bevis and Butthead or most any other funny cartoon.
Huntsville I see.
Remove the bolt from the carrier. Put the carrier back in and then check for excess drag pulling it back over the hammer. If the hammer can’t cock back fully it drags hard on the carrier.
If I had an AR professionally assembled, I'd spend very little time trying to fix it myself. He built it, so he (or she) should find the problem.
Since you should have at least one spare complete BCG, that's as far as I'd go with troubleshooting. If your spare BCG allows the rifle to run, then the problem will have been identified.
Ok Gents- need help & advice.
Had a 20" rifle built by a local 'smith back in March I think. Took it to range next day, slow fired 60 rounds to check function, hung up a couple times in chambering, but was ok otherwise. Rifle was put in safe until 4JAN21.
Upon first loading the first mag...failure to chamber, bolt lacked about 1/2 inch or so closing. Hit forward assist, closed bolt...CLICK. Took out the round, small indent on primer. This happened 3 times in a row.
Took out the National Match bcg..cleaned it thoroughly, then rifle would fire. BCG felt very sluggish. Was a cold windy day, and at this point was lubed with Ballistol after cleaning the bcg.
Several more FTF & FTF after this with several known mags & Match ammo from IMI & Black Hills.
So, ruling out mags & ammo...Im think the bcg is the culprit, but dont know how or why. I cannot give out accuracy results yet, due to the windy conditions of the day and my frustration at the moment with the gun.
So- advice & opinion needed here ,and thanks very much in advance.
By your post (and the other one) this is a Young "National Match BCG."
You do know there is no United States military or industry standard for National Match anything for the M16 and AR-15, correct? You bought into Young's snake-oil marketing. Their web site even states their carriers are NOT mil-spec.
Your other thread says you've got a BCM bolt in the carrier, so I'm going to assume (yes, I know about ass out of you-and-me) that something may be causing a sluggish interference-fit between your bolt and carrier. Does this have standard gas rings or a MacFarland coil? Is the bore of the bolt carrier under-sized? Is your parkerized bolt tail polished to fit the carrier bore hole? Did you lube it well? Did you break it in (parkerized bolt finish against chrome carrier bore)?
Does the gas tube bind on the gas carrier key on closing?
SOTAR did an examination of one of these BCG’s and found it to be out of spec dimensionally in areas that look important.
Straight Shooter
01-10-21, 13:43
Ok Gents, thanks for all the info- Ive got some bcg's to check rifle with. Let me try to do this & Ill get back to yall.
Sinister- didnt so much "fall" for it, as I researched it here & elsewhere for a year or more, even talked to a well known 'smith in Ohio that makes NM rifles for the USMC...he uses them. I was just trying to buy, what I thought, with my limited knowledge & money, to be the best bcg for accuracy. I am gonna get to work on this and post back here when I can,maybe today, but soon. Oh yes, yes, it is a Youngs NM. With standard BCM rings.Was lubed well & clean. Gun as of right now has under 100 rounds. the other questions I dont know.
Bamashooter..yep..Im in Huntsville. Bullet & Barrel did the assembly.
Thank yall again.
UPDATE: Went ahead & stayed in today to look about this.
So, cleaned the rifle thorough..Marine clean. BCG was cleaned, and to whatever knowledge I have, inspected.
One reason I wanted the Youngs was the Hardchrome coating. Cleans up easy & nice. Without the BCM bolt in, put it in with the Fortis Hammer CH and check for gas tube alignment-perfect. Was also smooth otherwise- NO hammer drag at all.
Next, installed bolt...was not too tight, felt like it ought to. Lubed it a tad and worked it awhile-fellas it feels smooth like it ought to.
NOTE: Im NOT hung up on keeping this carrier if its the problem. But without SOTAR's expertise & gauges..aint no way I can tell good from bad. Next thing to do, is use different bcg's at the range...whenever that may be. But Ill definately do that.
Im gonna take the advice given and from time to time keep working the action awhile in mean time.
1168- I have seen that video. Id already long bought mine.
One odd thing about the bcg. I sent the bolt to Criterion for headspacing. Mike said "they couldnt headpace it to several barrels they tried because the bolt was too small.". So, He GAVE me the new BCM bolt & headspaced it for FREE.
Id love for SOTAR to get ahold of this thing just to see if its right or wrong inside.
So, thanks again for help & suggestions- keep any ideas coming.
I can imagine how frustrating it is, usually ARs pretty much just work.
Did the rifle hand-cycle more smoothly today than it did at the range? When you say its sluggish, do you mean when you fire it, hand-cycle it or both?
Is it possible the lube gummed up since March? You did say functioning was fine at that time, right?
Unless there is something obvious, I really would suggest returning it to Bullet and Barrel and asking them to fix it.
If you want to try shooting it again, using your headspaced bolt with another BCG may help troubleshooting.
One thing is for sure, once you get the glitch worked out, it should be a SHOOTER!
Andy
Straight Shooter
01-10-21, 16:35
I can imagine how frustrating it is, usually ARs pretty much just work.
Did the rifle hand-cycle more smoothly today than it did at the range? When you say its sluggish, do you mean when you fire it, hand-cycle it or both?
Is it possible the lube gummed up since March? You did say functioning was fine at that time, right?
Unless there is something obvious, I really would suggest returning it to Bullet and Barrel and asking them to fix it.
If you want to try shooting it again, using your headspaced bolt with another BCG may help troubleshooting.
Andy
I agree, AR's just pretty much work, shouldnt need to be broken in or messed with as long as everything is in spec.
The rifle did hand cycle more smoothly it seemed, today. The lube had in fact gummed up since March..but I cleaned the bcg well and it stil did it after a few more rounds. When I test fired it in March, I slow fired two mags, checking for eveything. It hung up then, a couple times, but all rounds fired amd cases looked & look, perfect.
It was very sluggish at the range, it was cold, but my other AR's ran like scalded cats, so it wasnt that.
Im gonna try to troubleshoot this thing, as a learning experiance mostly. MAybe in fact this one DOES need a break in, as suggested.
Ive got two ToolCraft carriers Ill try with the bolt next time, agan, whenever that may be.
Thanks for chiming in brother.
Sorry for your frustration. ARs usually just don’t work, as others have said. Look forward to hearing how you resolved this.
I agree with Andy, above. The BCM bolt was/is headspaced to your barrel and extension by the barrel manufacturer. If you have ANY other plain bolt carrier (commercial or GI) I'd use your known bolt and a carrier you know works in other weapons.
The alternate carrier shouldn't affect headspacing at all.
Straight Shooter
01-10-21, 19:45
I agree with Andy, above. The BCM bolt was/is headspaced to your barrel and extension by the barrel manufacturer. If you have ANY other plain bolt carrier (commercial or GI) I'd use your known bolt and a carrier you know works in other weapons.
The alternate carrier shouldn't affect headspacing at all.
Thank you sir. Could it be that the bcg just needs broken in? It would be the first time of me seeing that- but then again Ive never owned or ran a NM bcg, either.
SeriousStudent
01-10-21, 21:26
Thanks Sinister, much appreciated. It's always good to get your thoughts.
Does FTF in the context you used it mean failure to feed or failure to fire with the small indent in the primer you wrote about? I have seen countless SPR builds with super light triggers cause this. If you are referring to a failure to fire I’d be interested in what a standard hammer spring does.
What trigger are you using?
ViniVidivici
01-11-21, 11:02
I've seen an out of spec cam pin drag inside an upper, the square head was literally too wide. Might be worth looking at and measuring.
Straight Shooter
01-11-21, 20:53
Does FTF in the context you used it mean failure to feed or failure to fire with the small indent in the primer you wrote about? I have seen countless SPR builds with super light triggers cause this. If you are referring to a failure to fire I’d be interested in what a standard hammer spring does.
What trigger are you using?
I've seen an out of spec cam pin drag inside an upper, the square head was literally too wide. Might be worth looking at and measuring.
The bolt would hang up about a half inch from seating fully. Then ,when fully closed, would get a light strike. Im ruling out the trigger, as it is a drop in Velocity 3lb, and it is hitting plenty hard. Ive got two of these btw, one a 4lb, they are built like tanks % excellent.
Vin..thank you. Ive got calipers..whats the spec on that? I did not see any drag or wear as I can now recall, but Ill check this if I can get the spec.
ViniVidivici
01-11-21, 22:56
The bolt would hang up about a half inch from seating fully. Then ,when fully closed, would get a light strike. Im ruling out the trigger, as it is a drop in Velocity 3lb, and it is hitting plenty hard. Ive got two of these btw, one a 4lb, they are built like tanks % excellent.
Vin..thank you. Ive got calipers..whats the spec on that? I did not see any drag or wear as I can now recall, but Ill check this if I can get the spec.
Just measured a Colt and a PSA, they're both 0.3985.
Other thing could be (re: light strikes) the BCG, the part where you see the back of the firing pin when assembled, that area has a ledge inside of course. If it's not milled out to spec, the spool of the firing pin could be hitting it, keeping it from protruding through the bolt as far as it should.
Is there any corresponding "mushrooming" or witness marks on that part of the firing pin?
It shouldn't be hard to figure out what the problem or problems are. Did you use any used parts in this build? If so, which ones?
How come your gun smith didn't test fire it?
ViniVidivici made a good call and I was about to suggest that, but he beat me to it. Just get a flashlight and look inside the receiver. If the cam pin or anything else is dragging you'll see the scarred anodizing.
I'm personally allergic to running the bolt of one brand in another brand of carrier, unless I have to. If the Young NM bolt wouldn't headspace, I would have suggested sending the entire BCG back to Young with a terse note, and get my money back. They are the ones who don't stake their carriers either, right? Snake oil I think. The chamber is much more important than the bolt for accuracy. Just run a good BCG like BCM or Daniel Defense and call it a day. Cleaning is not that hard or necessary to do after every trip to the range. Chrome is not necessary. ARs are made to run dirty.
I hate to ask this but did you try more than one magazine? Does the BCG drive home with no magazine in it? Or does it hang up? Its possible the carrier could be dragging on the magazine. The carrier should drive home with no drag if there is no magazine. Gas rings and a bolt should not be able to stop a carrier, even when the rings are new. BTW Ballistol is not a good oil for a BCG. It needs more viscosity. SLIP 2000 works very well, but there should be grease on the bearings of the carrier, the cam pin, and some grease on the gas rings and bearing. ARs like to be well lubed. Oh, and make sure the charging handle is lubed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bOT_d60LM
What buffer weight are you running? Not enough spring or buffer weight can cause problems. Minimally, if its a Carbine buffer tube it should be an H1 (says H on it), maybe run an H2. Check the length of the spring too. (look up the spec online) If its a bad spring, buy a good quality spring made by Sprinco. Its unlikely that buffer weight is the problem, but the spring? Possibly. Unless the weight is a carbine buffer weight (no mark), then, for sure, I would suggest getting an H1.
If you are running a rifle buffer tube make sure it has the correct spring and buffer, otherwise leave that alone for now. Just make sure the spring is the right length.
Ok, so a light primer strike can also be caused by a firing pin that is too short or an obstruction/goop in the bolt. Just make sure that the firing pin is extending out of the bolt to adequately strike the primer. And that it slides easily in the bolt. I don't know what the measurement is for the protrusion of the firing pin, you can look it up, but eye ball it first.
Try looking at all those possibilities before taking anymore steps.
SOTAR lubing may-be a little excessive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTpWfjVFfEU
The bolt would hang up about a half inch from seating fully. Then ,when fully closed, would get a light strike. Im ruling out the trigger, as it is a drop in Velocity 3lb, and it is hitting plenty hard. Ive got two of these btw, one a 4lb, they are built like tanks % excellent.
Vin..thank you. Ive got calipers..whats the spec on that? I did not see any drag or wear as I can now recall, but Ill check this if I can get the spec.
Dude BCG’s are so cheap, just toss it and buy a new one. I’m still leaning toward a light hammer spring as well. Every chintzy trigger I’ve seen, even expensive ones, do this. Throw a mil-spec trigger and BCG in there and see what happens. This is what happens when we buy products that solve problems we never had.
Straight Shooter
01-12-21, 08:54
Scottsbad-
I appreciate the time it took to write that. Let me quickly answer your questions, as I am pooped from work last night.
Gunsmith fired the rifle, it worked. I then fired 60 rounds myself, it hung up a couple times. Sat in a safe all year until 4JAN.
Im gonna measure to FP & Bolt cam when I get a moment.
Carrier WAS greased as you said when problems occured. I used Ballistol to clean it again, then lubed it with it cause its what I had at hand. Ballistol has fine for me for decades, but I do use better stuff otherwise.
Mags were old, proven ones of different make, some Ive used over 10 years..mags werent the issue.
Ch was greased. And my 'smith staked the carrier key before 1st round was fired.
It has a Rifle buffer. Ive been wondering if the Recoil Spring is involved in this also somehow.
Give me some time to do the measurements, Ill check back when I do.
Thanks again for the post.
Straight Shooter
01-12-21, 09:02
Dude BCG’s are so cheap, just toss it and buy a new one. I’m still leaning toward a light hammer spring as well. Every chintzy trigger I’ve seen, even expensive ones, do this. Throw a mil-spec trigger and BCG in there and see what happens. This is what happens when we buy products that solve problems we never had.
Are you aware this was a new build, from parts amassed over a few years?
Where are you finding these "so cheap" bcg's? The one in my rifle was $200 a couple years ago. aint "tossing" shit.
Are you also aware this is a rifle meant for precision shooting? I wont be "throwing a mil-spec trigger in there" at all.
You are also WRONG about the Velocity trigger. If YOU havent used one-how the hell can you call it "chintzy"?
IF all this needs is a good breaking in- good, Im fine with it. Rifle wasnt ever gonna be used for SD or in life or death anyway.
IF the bcg winds up being the problem, Ill use one of the several I have in then.
Mags were old, proven ones of different make, some Ive used over 10 years..mags werent the issue.
If they are 10 years old, and getting a lot of use, are the springs getting worn out?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Just measured a Colt and a PSA, they're both 0.3985.
.400 +/- .001
Are you aware this was a new build, from parts amassed over a few years?
Where are you finding these "so cheap" bcg's? The one in my rifle was $200 a couple years ago. aint "tossing" shit.
Are you also aware this is a rifle meant for precision shooting? I wont be "throwing a mil-spec trigger in there" at all.
You are also WRONG about the Velocity trigger. If YOU havent used one-how the hell can you call it "chintzy"?
IF all this needs is a good breaking in- good, Im fine with it. Rifle wasnt ever gonna be used for SD or in life or death anyway.
IF the bcg winds up being the problem, Ill use one of the several I have in then.
Well, I’m a master class shooter, an OIF Veteran with a B4ASI(I know a little bit about precision shooting), I own a shooting instruction company, and up until this point I’ve never heard of velocity triggers. You’d think if they were popular in any meaningful way, I would have seen a single one, somewhere. I had to google them. They’re chintzy shit. I don’t know about the BCG, but I haven’t seen a match or a fight won due to a modified BCG. It’s unneeded.
You don’t have to be a dick about it or get emotionally invested because you paid for it. More money doesn’t mean more better. Just put a normal BCG in it and any trigger that is a known quantity with a full power hammer spring in it and see what happens. All of these things are cheap.
If you’re in Texas PM me and I’ll show you that it’s possible to shoot a milspec trigger in a precision setting. There’s a million reasons why you’re going to miss before the trigger.
They’re fairly popular. If you instruct dudes that use personally owned weapons, you’ll probably encounter one at some point. I have no input on whether they are any good or not.
Well, I’m a master class shooter, an OIF Veteran with a B4ASI(I know a little bit about precision shooting), I own a shooting instruction company, and up until this point I’ve never heard of velocity triggers. You’d think if they were popular in any meaningful way, I would have seen a single one, somewhere. I had to google them. They’re chintzy shit.
They’re fairly popular. If you instruct dudes that use personally owned weapons, you’ll probably encounter one at some point. I have no input on whether they are any good or not.
Yeah I was racking my brain, but I’ve never seen one. I shoot 50+ matches a year- SPR, IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge, Two Gun. 5 or so run and guns across the country- everyone needs to try these, they’re awesome -but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one.
I guess they make several models, I just don’t think the trigger, especially the trigger weight, is anywhere near the top of the list of modifications you need to shoot well. Anytime I see failure to fire or feed it’s either:
1. Gas- adjustable or loose block
2. Lube
3. Some fancy and light trigger
I generally believe you start messing with the gun when it’s the gun that’s holding you back. In my case, it’s almost always me holding me back, with the exception of sights or grip enhancing products on pistols.
Scottsbad-
I appreciate the time it took to write that. Let me quickly answer your questions, as I am pooped from work last night.
Gunsmith fired the rifle, it worked. I then fired 60 rounds myself, it hung up a couple times. Sat in a safe all year until 4JAN.
Im gonna measure to FP & Bolt cam when I get a moment.
Carrier WAS greased as you said when problems occured. I used Ballistol to clean it again, then lubed it with it cause its what I had at hand. Ballistol has fine for me for decades, but I do use better stuff otherwise.
Mags were old, proven ones of different make, some Ive used over 10 years..mags werent the issue.
Ch was greased. And my 'smith staked the carrier key before 1st round was fired.
It has a Rifle buffer. Ive been wondering if the Recoil Spring is involved in this also somehow.
Give me some time to do the measurements, Ill check back when I do.
Thanks again for the post.
You are welcome. No need to respond.
Without having the rifle in my hands, I can't do much more. Sometimes trouble shooting requires feeling the rifle's operation.
The only other thing I can think of right now is to make sure the rifle is not short stroking, because of a gas leak or mis-aligned gas block. Usually, when the rifle is short stroking you get a different set of problems, but you can check by looking for carbon around the gas key, gas block, gas tube for carbon just to make sure.
I still feel like something is wonky with the buffer spring, or that the BCG is dragging excessively on something. Try a different BCG too, but that's all I can offer.
Yes, good BCGs are suddenly hard to find. I use BCM, Daniel Defense, Colt, or LMT.
I was looking around last night, and was amazed to find that BCM is out of stock on everything, and I mean every major component. Uppers, out of stock, every single upper is marked OOS. Bud's gun shop, every AR is sold out. Rifle Gear, every modern sporting rifle in 223 and 7.62 Nato sold out.
The panic buying has doubled down.
I suggest keep the chest thumping qualifications out of the thread.
I suggest keep the chest thumping qualifications out of the thread.
Dude, no one is “chest thumping”. After someone was emotionally speaking down to me I was establishing, in two sentences, that I was not some dude that walked out of Academy with an M&P yesterday. That it might be possible for people without a yellow name or who post thousands of times a year to also have objective experience, facts, and data to contribute to the site.
This is why this site has become 10-15 people fellating each other in every thread and why this thread exists. Where a dude piece meals a weird gun together, has a simple issue, and folks spend 30+ posts dissecting it and arguing with him about it.
This site is the internet gun equivalent of Texas. A bunch of folks standing around yelling, “DON’T MESS WITH TEXAS! HA!” While they gladly take insane property tax increases and watch the state turn blue-er by the second as it is infiltrated by Californians. It’s just incestuous at this point.
back to troubleshooting...
We have a known good bolt. We have known good magazines. We have a BCG that we cannot vouch for.
Isn't the obvious next step what Sinister was getting at-- swap the criterion-headspaced bolt into another carrier and check function? You have other carriers, right? You said you can feel the BCG hanging up, right? Can you reproduce this hanging up feeling with another BCG and the same bolt?
Does the suspect BCG slide freely in the upper with the bolt removed? Do you still feel the "hanging up" feeling without the bolt in?
The light primer strikes I would ignore for now until you identify the source of the feed issues and "hanging up" as it's possible that resolving one will resolve the other.
You can remove the BCG and check for free firing pin travel in the BCG and that the cam pin rotates correctly to allow removal and insertion of the firing pin.
And it is true that "national match" it purely a marketing term. If you value the chrome finish, I'd suggest you can find DD carriers and other chrome carriers out there for the $$$ if you look hard.
Straight Shooter
01-13-21, 19:35
Dude, no one is “chest thumping”. After someone was emotionally speaking down to me I was establishing, in two sentences, that I was not some dude that walked out of Academy with an M&P yesterday. That it might be possible for people without a yellow name or who post thousands of times a year to also have objective experience, facts, and data to contribute to the site.
This is why this site has become 10-15 people fellating each other in every thread and why this thread exists. Where a dude piece meals a weird gun together, has a simple issue, and folks spend 30+ posts dissecting it and arguing with him about it.
This site is the internet gun equivalent of Texas. A bunch of folks standing around yelling, “DON’T MESS WITH TEXAS! HA!” While they gladly take insane property tax increases and watch the state turn blue-er by the second as it is infiltrated by Californians. It’s just incestuous at this point.
MODS- OP here. Im good, please close this.
MODS- OP here. Im good, please close this.
I for one would be very interested in what the prob was. Helps me learn. Please let us know in another thread if this one goes away.
OP, the thread is still open if you would like it to be. You may notice a slight thread change above.
Straight Shooter
01-13-21, 21:02
THANK YOU, SIR. Lets leave it open please!
Straight Shooter
01-13-21, 21:04
I for one would be very interested in what the prob was. Helps me learn. Please let us know in another thread if this one goes away.
Thanks for your interest Tom..its why Im gonna troubleshoot this myself, to learn.
Only thing, dont when my next range trip is gonna be to sort this out. I will definately update this then.
I hope my "weird gun" that I "piecemealed together" will soon be up & running. :D;)
Every rifle is “piecemeal”— that’s the whole point of interchangeable parts. Otherwise we’d all be dealing with the hand-fit process that 1911 lovers consider art and some us consider obsolete.
I work with parts where tolerances are held to under plus/minus 5 microns. A human hair is typically 100-150 microns thick.
With modern CNC machining centers, holding under a thousandth in most dimensions is cake. Tolerances stacking will not cause fitment issues or function issues.
Think about it this way. In any assembly made of parts there are only three kinds of defects: either the part is improperly designed, part is improperly made, or it’s improperly assembled.
Buying reputable mil spec parts all but rules out bad design or manufacture, leaving only assembly.
In this case, we know assembly is pretty simple and not likely wrong, which leaves only a part that is poorly made or designed.
Straight Shooter,
The Young NM carrier body has larger the milspec dimensions so it fits in the upper with tighter clearances. The idea is to reduce play and increase in precision. According fo the guys on the National Match forum, it does nothing to help precision. The carrier is designed to float inside the upper. Less clearance means the carrier is less tolerant of residue, debris and gummed up lube.
Bolt not going into battery when hitting the bolt release is one symptom of a bad recoil spring.
When you get this sorted out, you should get 500 to 1000 rounds of trouble free shooting before experiencing empty cases getting caught in the action. I'll save you trouble and tell you now, THAT problem will be the extractor spring. The fix is to install a new spring from Colt or Sprinco.
Straight Shooter
01-16-21, 07:39
Straight Shooter,
The Young NM carrier body has larger the milspec dimensions so it fits in the upper with tighter clearances. The idea is to reduce play and increase in precision. According fo the guys on the National Match forum, it does nothing to help precision. The carrier is designed to float inside the upper. Less clearance means the carrier is less tolerant of residue, debris and gummed up lube.
Bolt not going into battery when hitting the bolt release is one symptom of a bad recoil spring.
When you get this sorted out, you should get 500 to 1000 rounds of trouble free shooting before experiencing empty cases getting caught in the action. I'll save you trouble and tell you now, THAT problem will be the extractor spring. The fix is to install a new spring from Colt or Sprinco.
SOLID info- thank you MistWolf. I knew the carrier had 30% larger surface contact inside...and is i think either half an ounce, or a full ounce heavier, to help with dwell time. Again- I had a long conversation with a gent Id bet an RC & Moon Pie you would know, & he uses them in Match rifles, as well as few other others who recommended them. Also "supposed" to keep bolt in more alignment when seated. My thinking at the time, was if it is any better why not? Still remins to be seen tho.
GREAT info on the extractor spring, to which I have been wondering...the spring had an insert and donut- I removed the donut, figured the rifle gas system didnt need both. Right, or wrong?
Secondly, even tho it is a new Aero Precision spring...I feel/felt this MAY play into it also...it just doesnt feel "right".
Having said that- what Wolff or Sprinco spring would you recommend?
Ive had a Sprinco in my LMT carbine over 10 years now & she is/has been 101% dead nuts reliable.
I also use Wolff in handguns & another rifle...so I like them both.
Any recommends appreciated- and THANK YOU for the info, again.
BCM uses a "stronger than standard" extractor spring in their bolts and I agree with removing the donut. My BCM midlength has been flawlessly reliable without the o-ring for thousands of rounds, clean, dirty, hot, and cold.
Colt and Sprinco make the "best" extractor springs. Sprinco was the easiest for me to find, so that is what I bought. I replace the extractor springs on my Toolcraft and PSA bolts before I fire them (even on the midlength I got from you). The Colt and Sprinco springs don't use the o-ring either.
EDIT - I don't know why I typed such a long post when nothing I said is news to you (you know a good bit more about ARs than I do).
Andy
Straight Shooter
01-16-21, 10:04
BCM uses a "stronger than standard" extractor spring in their bolts and I agree with removing the donut. My BCM midlength has been flawlessly reliable without the o-ring for thousands of rounds, clean, dirty, hot, and cold.
Colt and Sprinco make the "best" extractor springs. Sprinco was the easiest for me to find, so that is what I bought. I replace the extractor springs on my Toolcraft and PSA bolts before I fire them (even on the midlength I got from you). The Colt and Sprinco springs don't use the o-ring either.
Andy
I have done that on my PSA middy too Andy- Im big on quality springs & as I said have used Wolff & Sprinco for many years now.
I have zero worrries on the bolt..and so far I cant find a damn thing wrong with the carrier. More firing needed and will do as I am able. No rush. Going to check Sprinco to see what recoil spring I need today.
BTW- hows that PSA doing?
Im up to or at over 1750 rounds on mine and its been a 100% delight.
I have done that on my PSA middy too Andy- Im big on quality springs & as I said have used Wolff & Sprinco for many years now.
I have zero worrries on the bolt..and so far I cant find a damn thing wrong with the carrier. More firing needed and will do as I am able. No rush. Going to check Sprinco to see what recoil spring I need today.
BTW- hows that PSA doing?
Im up to or at over 1750 rounds on mine and its been a 100% delight.
I'm hoping your rifle will just "shoot in" and I suspect it will.
My son and I took his PSA out, fired and zero'ed it (with a M-BUS rear) without issue and it is a smooth shooter. I am really a fan of the 16" midlength platform. My son is happy with it, and of course that is the main thing.
Andy
Straight Shooter
01-16-21, 10:41
I'm hoping your rifle will just "shoot in" and I suspect it will.
My son and I took his PSA out, fired and zero'ed it (with a M-BUS rear) without issue and it is a smooth shooter. I am really a fan of the 16" midlength platform. My son is happy with it, and of course that is the main thing.
Andy
Of course, that IS the main thing. Im so glad brother. I STILL cnt find the dang rear sight I had on that at one time...beats me where it is.
And I too, am really thinkin it will indeed shoot in, cant wait to see what itll do...for a "weird rifle" that was "piecemealed together".
Last I checked the Colt extractor spring was the only properly engineered upgrade. Worth sourcing if you feel the need, but you really shouldn’t “need” it on a rifle.
Last I checked the Colt extractor spring was the only properly engineered upgrade. Worth sourcing if you feel the need, but you really shouldn’t “need” it on a rifle.
What the design flaw in the BCM extractor spring kit?
Last I checked the Colt extractor spring was the only properly engineered upgrade. Worth sourcing if you feel the need, but you really shouldn’t “need” it on a rifle.Could you expound on this a bit, please? I know that the Colt gold spring is good to go, but I've also read that so is the BCM one. I've read that the Sprinco may actually be the best as it far outlasts all others.
Third vote for "more info please"
My understanding is that the Colt and Sprinco are very similar in performance. According to my uncalibrated finger and eyeballs, my BCM springs are stronger than the mystery springs included with PSA and Toolcraft BCGs but the Sprinco springs are stronger yet.
Andy
It’s not about who makes the strongest, it’s about not exceeding spring engineering stress limits. Above those limits spring life can go down significantly.
There is no room in the space available to put the spring you would want in there. The Colt is basically as much as you can fit within that stress limit.
That’s about the extent of what I got from knowledgeable sources, I have not run the numbers myself.
So the justification for the statement is something like “a big name I respect said so.”
I had higher hopes.
Spring calculations are not that complicated. You are welcome to get a engineer to tell you how spring stress works if you don’t believe me.
You can do the stress calculations yourself, there are free calculators available online. You only need a few measurements off the spring.
I dont think anyone is doubting Colt engineered the springs correctly, just asking for empirical evidence supporting the statement that they are the only ones to do so.
Andy
Third vote for "more info please"
My understanding is that the Colt and Sprinco are very similar in performance. According to my uncalibrated finger and eyeballs, my BCM springs are stronger than the mystery springs included with PSA and Toolcraft BCGs but the Sprinco springs are stronger yet.
Andy
This has been my understanding also, concerning the 4 coil Sprinco specifically. Whereas the 5 coil Sprinco is stiffer. The difference between the Colt and the 4 coil Sprinco being that the Sprinco has a MUCH MUCH longer service life, in the 100s of thousands versus 5-10k for the Colt. Is that right?
As I said, it’s not hard to do yourself. Somebody I trust enough to properly measure a spring had a few different ones to work with. This was years ago and I don’t recall what specific “extra power” springs he had.
That info has kept me running, without any problems, a Colt gold or standard rifle with o-ring. I have never seen a viton o-ring come apart and I suspect it’s standard rubber ones that do but I replace them regularly anyway.
I’m not looking to disparage anyone’s favorite manufacturer, just passing on some knowledge I picked up that at least some of the “extra power” springs are not properly engineered.
By your post (and the other one) this is a Young "National Match BCG."
You do know there is no United States military or industry standard for National Match anything for the M16 and AR-15, correct? You bought into Young's snake-oil marketing. Their web site even states their carriers are NOT mil-spec.
Your other thread says you've got a BCM bolt in the carrier, so I'm going to assume (yes, I know about ass out of you-and-me) that something may be causing a sluggish interference-fit between your bolt and carrier. Does this have standard gas rings or a MacFarland coil? Is the bore of the bolt carrier under-sized? Is your parkerized bolt tail polished to fit the carrier bore hole? Did you lube it well? Did you break it in (parkerized bolt finish against chrome carrier bore)?
Does the gas tube bind on the gas carrier key on closing?
HEY NOW, I resemble that remark!
I bought a rifle several years ago with a Youngs carrier, bought it reasonably, has a Shilen barrel on it....it was built as a Prairie Dog killer originally. I did replace the funky PSG1 pistol grip, the Magpul PRS stock (with a UBR) and the old school free float tube with a BCM KMR-Alpha but other than that, it's been a superb rifle. Very accurate and not terribly picky about loads honestly...
Since there is no standard for the term NM, I think it's just been semi-accepted because over the decades some really zoot high power rifle/ Camp Perry shooters started using this type barrel, trigger, free float set up, maybe something like some good gunsmith's idea of a blue printed BCG etc. etc. The idea just sort of trickled down to the masses
There are, in fact, National Match standards and drawings for the M1903 rifle, the M1911A1 pistol, the M1 rifle, and the M14 rifle. You can find GI parts with the Army drawing number stamped on them as required per contract specifications.
At the National Matches at Camp Perry the Army would give out booklets so that civilians and other gunsmiths could make guns to meet NM standards to pass inspection at Camp Perry and other Excellence-in-Competition matches.
The Army stopped supporting the National Matches in 1968. The Army Materiel Command did not and does not have standardized parts or dimensions for National Match M16s, M9s, M11s, or M17s and 18s. Weapons and ammo must now meet the rules in Civilian Marksmanship Program rules for service rifle and service pistol competition, but there are no military standard drawings.
https://www.employees.org/~beetle/nationalmatch/gvtmatch3.JPG
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/aUIAAOSwNSxVEdh~/s-l400.jpg
https://www.1911addicts.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.1911addicts.com/attachments/img_1690-jpeg.500759/
https://www.dupagetrading.com/wp-content/uploads/cm/IMG_43883.JPG
https://interarmstx.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/image_1492678017_1949306608-1.jpg
https://www.m14forum.com/attachments/001-jpg.439524/
https://www.nicolausassociates.com/images/1966NMPistol-Cover.jpg
https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/776_HighpowerRules-646x1024.jpg
I guess the 15/16 just missed the boat on the whole NM specs thing.
Last I checked the Colt extractor spring was the only properly engineered upgrade. Worth sourcing if you feel the need, but you really shouldn’t “need” it on a rifle.
This sounds like excrement to me. There are thousands of BCM rifles and uppers, not too mention BCM BCGs out there. I've never heard a complain about BCM extractors, or extractor springs.
I think you should offer up some engineering based explanations that we can verify or at least consider. Perhaps an article or white paper. Or are you just barking something that sounds like, "only Colt has the TDP" therefore, only Colt can make them to spec. Because I've never heard that that Colt is the only company that engineers them properly. In fact, I've read that the Sprinco extractor springs are superior to Colt's copper colored springs.
.
Frankly, it doesn't matter to me, that much, I just use Sprinco or BCM. They just work without a doughnut, very reliably, and that's all I care about. It just bugs me when people make statements unless they can explain the reasoning.
It’s not about who makes the strongest, it’s about not exceeding spring engineering stress limits. Above those limits spring life can go down significantly.
There is no room in the space available to put the spring you would want in there. The Colt is basically as much as you can fit within that stress limit.
That’s about the extent of what I got from knowledgeable sources, I have not run the numbers myself.
That is very thin and really doesn't address the question.
Spring calculations are not that complicated. You are welcome to get a engineer to tell you how spring stress works if you don’t believe me.
You can do the stress calculations yourself, there are free calculators available online. You only need a few measurements off the spring.
That's ridiculous. Materials, heat treatment, dimensions, design goals, spring manufacturing all have something to do with the compression strength, MTBF/spring fatigue, loss of spring strength.... Stress calculations are going to be pretty damn dependent on materials, design, manufacture specifics.
Maybe you can get some real information, I'd be happy to hear why your statement is true.
As I said, it’s not hard to do yourself. Somebody I trust enough to properly measure a spring had a few different ones to work with. This was years ago and I don’t recall what specific “extra power” springs he had.
That info has kept me running, without any problems, a Colt gold or standard rifle with o-ring. I have never seen a viton o-ring come apart and I suspect it’s standard rubber ones that do but I replace them regularly anyway.
I’m not looking to disparage anyone’s favorite manufacturer, just passing on some knowledge I picked up that at least some of the “extra power” springs are not properly engineered.
Its not about favorite manufacturer, its about truth. I'd be happy to know that Colt extractor springs are the "end all" of extractor springs. If it was true, I'd buy a few for backup. I think I have one right now, so I'd buy more. But for the price they are ridiculous. I could change out my BCM or Sprinco extractor springs twice as often or more for the cost of a Colt spring at Brownnell's.
It just bugs me when people make statements unless they can explain the reasoning.
Likewise, which is why I challenged it as diplomatically as knew to.
Stress calculations are going to be pretty damn dependent on materials, design, manufacture specifics.
That info is exactly what you put in the calculator. And you would know you just need a few measurements off the spring, and the material if you bothered to look at one.
The stress should not exceed a certain percentage of the tensile strength, and this is something the calculator will spit out. It’s not rocket science.
I gave the “buy a Glock and 6920" answer based on my basic understanding of springs and info I got from a reputable source back when I was in the industry. I would not run an "extra power" spring without checking the stress because of what I learned. I also have not found the need to run any yet.
Colt designed their own spring that was an M4 upgrade, but it stopped short of many of the aftermarket, and Crane used an o-ring when they needed more tension for the Mk18.
Straight Shooter
01-24-21, 00:54
Gentlemen- God bless yall for the info & questions & back & forth so far. NO ONE has yet crossed the line, but PLEASE, lets continue to be civil & LEARN from one another-THANK YOU ALL for your help.
QUESTION: I had a thought hit me yesterday...since the NM bcg is bigger & heavier, would an "extra power" recoil spring help in any way?
What about the Tubb RS? Or, any other yall might recommend? I did not see a EP RIFLE RS on the Sprinco page. Thoughts on this please.
I wouldn't add a stiffer spring. Yes, a stiffer spring will retard unlocking/extracting a little, but once your bolt group compresses and hits the end of the extension the spring is going to expand and slam that carrier forward faster, which may cause it to out-run your magazine spring trying to push cartridges up into the feedway.
I like Tubb flat springs.
Straight Shooter
01-24-21, 01:18
I wouldn't add a stiffer spring. Yes, a stiffer spring will retard unlocking/extracting a little, but once your bolt group compresses and hits the end of the extension the spring is going to expand and slam that carrier forward faster, which may cause it to out-run your magazine spring trying to push cartridges up into the feedway.
I like Tubb flat springs.
THANK YOU.
After posting this- I saw the excellent thread here on springs. I liked the reviews of the 42 coil Tubb spring, and was considerng it already when I saw your fast response. Should I try the 36 or 42?
THANK YOU.
After posting this- I saw the excellent thread here on springs. I liked the reviews of the 42 coil Tubb spring, and was considerng it already when I saw your fast response. Should I try the 36 or 42?
My take away from lysander's posts in that thread is that buffer weight has MUCH more influence than spring weight. I would experiment with Tubb's Carrier Weight System, if I were you.
I think the 42-coil is for AR-10s/SR-25s. Maybe the short ones are for 300 Blackout? I don't remember specifically, but don't over-spring.
I used the Tubb weight for years in my National Match (yes, to shoot at Camp Perry) M16s. The two-piece set-up wasn't so much a pain in the backside as it was annoying to have the tungsten insert, then the steel sleeve fall out when stripping the rifle for cleaning. I solved that by using an XH buffer.
Straight Shooter
01-24-21, 08:56
I think the 42-coil is for AR-10s/SR-25s. Maybe the short ones are for 300 Blackout? I don't remember specifically, but don't over-spring.
I used the Tubb weight for years in my National Match (yes, to shoot at Camp Perry) M16s. The two-piece set-up wasn't so much a pain in the backside as it was annoying to have the tungsten insert, then the steel sleeve fall out when stripping the rifle for cleaning. I solved that by using an XH buffer.
Yes sir- I knew the 42 coil was to be for .308, but several here & elsewhere report using them in 5.56 guns to great effect.
Wondering while at Camp Perry- did you see any using the NM bcg? Thoughts on that?
I am def gonna order a Tubb Spring. When I do & can get to the range to test, can I safely assune that if it will workk with M193, its good to go with the heavier stuff? Dont want to have to use my Match ammo for testing too much if possible.
I saw one or two, but people normally put the extra money into ammo, barrels, spotting scope, travel and accommodation, and match fees.
I don't see the advantage of a zoot carrier when I can get a few for the same price (i.e., back-up gun, uppers, or spare).
Straight Shooter
01-24-21, 10:13
I saw one or two, but people normally put the extra money into ammo, barrels, spotting scope, travel and accommodation, and match fees.
I don't see the advantage of a zoot carrier when I can get a few for the same price (i.e., back-up gun, uppers, or spare).
I appreciate your response, thank you again.
Extra power recoil springs are mainly used to bandaid over gassed carbines. I’m not a fan there and there just shouldn’t be any need with a rifle.
The longer the gas system the more potential for different powder burn rates to impact bolt speed and function. PMC bronze way back in the day is a great example if you want to dig in the archives.
A test for good cyclic rate test that doesn’t take a lot of ammo:
1) Keep your ammo as cold as you will be shooting. If you are building a coyote gun in the summer to use in the winter, put your ammo in a cooler with dry ice.
2) Do a lock back test (one round in each mag), but hold the gun loosely and an inch or two off your shoulder. Repeat a few more times and if it reliably locks back you are good with that ammo.
...I've never heard a complain about BCM extractors, or extractor springs...
You haven't been paying attention to all the "double feed" with "my new BCM upper" posts. We haven't had any in a while, but some time back, there were quite a few. When the extractor spring was replaced, the problem went away. Anecdotal, yes. But a noticeable pattern that would be foolish to ignore.
I believe the development of the M4 spring is talked about in the book Black Rifle II. In the evolution to the AR family of weapons from the first AR15 to the M4, the extractor spring had to be upgraded twice. Once when they changed to a higher energy powder and again after the M4 began having extraction issues when used for duty beyond its original intent as a simple PDW.
Years ago, I came across a forum thread discussing the extractor spring and O ring. One post came up by someone who was involved with correcting issues with the AR FOW said the O ring was an interim fix. It was only necessary because of the difficulties of getting the .mil to add the then new Colt spring to the system. The reason given for not adopting the new spring was to avoid adding a new NSN for what is essentially the same part. They finally resolved the problem by approving the new spring for use in the M16 as well as the M4 and obsoleting the old spring from the system. I don't recall who the poster was and I believe the thread was on ar15.com and was old when I stumbled across it.
What I do know is, I've personally replaced several failed extractor springs and advised others online to do the same using the Colt M4 spring. The failed springs were sourced from PSA, generic brand BCGs, BCM and Colt. Only one of the springs needing replacement was a Colt M4 spring and it was in my personal AR. The rest were PSA, BCM and generic.
I remember it as a suspected bad batch of BCM springs and I swear I also remember the "o-ring" being an interim fix.
I know for a fact you better eat your Wheaties if you want to use the o-ring with the updated Colt or Sprinco spring.
Andy
ViniVidivici
01-25-21, 19:15
I have a newer BCM extractor spring kit, still in the bag...spring, insert, AND o-ring.
What's the consensus on using the o-ring with it off the bat? Why is it included?
I have a newer BCM extractor spring kit, still in the bag...spring, insert, AND o-ring.
What's the consensus on using the o-ring with it off the bat?
If an extractor spring needs an O ring, the spring needs to be replaced.
If an extractor spring needs an O ring, the spring needs to be replaced.
Kinda like belts and suspenders.
I use 'em because they're cheap insurance (on a carbine). Out of sight, out of mind.
Some of the major mission-stopping failures I've had were from the simplest things. An internally-fogged ART-II scope on an M-21 sniper rifle; a broken M9 locking block; an M4 bolt cracked in half; an Eotech that wouldn't hold zero; and an M16 extractor pin broken in half.
THANK YOU.
After posting this- I saw the excellent thread here on springs. I liked the reviews of the 42 coil Tubb spring, and was considerng it already when I saw your fast response. Should I try the 36 or 42?
Did you score that 42 yet? If so, any updates on it's use?
Ok Gents, thanks for all the info- Ive got some bcg's to check rifle with. Let me try to do this & Ill get back to yall.
Sinister- didnt so much "fall" for it, as I researched it here & elsewhere for a year or more, even talked to a well known 'smith in Ohio that makes NM rifles for the USMC...he uses them. I was just trying to buy, what I thought, with my limited knowledge & money, to be the best bcg for accuracy. I am gonna get to work on this and post back here when I can,maybe today, but soon. Oh yes, yes, it is a Youngs NM. With standard BCM rings.Was lubed well & clean. Gun as of right now has under 100 rounds. the other questions I dont know.
Bamashooter..yep..Im in Huntsville. Bullet & Barrel did the assembly.
Thank yall again.
UPDATE: Went ahead & stayed in today to look about this.
So, cleaned the rifle thorough..Marine clean. BCG was cleaned, and to whatever knowledge I have, inspected.
One reason I wanted the Youngs was the Hardchrome coating. Cleans up easy & nice. Without the BCM bolt in, put it in with the Fortis Hammer CH and check for gas tube alignment-perfect. Was also smooth otherwise- NO hammer drag at all.
Next, installed bolt...was not too tight, felt like it ought to. Lubed it a tad and worked it awhile-fellas it feels smooth like it ought to.
NOTE: Im NOT hung up on keeping this carrier if its the problem. But without SOTAR's expertise & gauges..aint no way I can tell good from bad. Next thing to do, is use different bcg's at the range...whenever that may be. But Ill definately do that.
Im gonna take the advice given and from time to time keep working the action awhile in mean time.
1168- I have seen that video. Id already long bought mine.
One odd thing about the bcg. I sent the bolt to Criterion for headspacing. Mike said "they couldnt headpace it to several barrels they tried because the bolt was too small.". So, He GAVE me the new BCM bolt & headspaced it for FREE.
Id love for SOTAR to get ahold of this thing just to see if its right or wrong inside.
So, thanks again for help & suggestions- keep any ideas coming.
Still having problems with this rifle?
Straight Shooter
02-07-21, 17:58
Hello SOTAR!
HUGE fan sir.
Well, since Ive been unable to get to the range, yes, Im sure rifle will still malf.
Man, Ive been relly wanting to get your opinion on some things. First, if I wanted you to do an exam of my Young NM bcg..how would I go about that? Second- thoughts on those in general.
I actually loaded up yesterday for the range with different bcg's, springs ,mags And ammo...only to get there and find several rabbit hunters nearby, then eventually right behing the berm. They had some little fellers with them, so i wasnt going to be "that guy" & ruin a good hunt.
So, Lord knows when Ill get a chance again. Ive already done several of your "checks"..all good on those.
ANY thoughts appreciated. And THANK YOU for asking.
Hello SOTAR!
HUGE fan sir.
Well, since Ive been unable to get to the range, yes, Im sure rifle will still malf.
Man, Ive been relly wanting to get your opinion on some things. First, if I wanted you to do an exam of my Young NM bcg..how would I go about that? Second- thoughts on those in general.
I actually loaded up yesterday for the range with different bcg's, springs ,mags And ammo...only to get there and find several rabbit hunters nearby, then eventually right behing the berm. They had some little fellers with them, so i wasnt going to be "that guy" & ruin a good hunt.
So, Lord knows when Ill get a chance again. Ive already done several of your "checks"..all good on those.
ANt thoughts appreciated. And THANK YOU for asking.
That's very kind of you. I appreciate the kind words.
I'm in a holding pattern for regulator work due to my backlog but I can make an exception for you.
If you want to send the upper, BCG, or the entire gun I can take a look at whatever you wish to send.
I would prefer to help you remotely before you send it as much as possible to save you time and money. Sending me a gun can get expensive between shipping and labor. I would need test ammo if you sent the upper or entire gun. I have a test trap for live fire testing.
If you shoot me a message here I can give you shipping options.
Straight Shooter
02-07-21, 18:17
That's very kind of you. I appreciate the kind words.
I'm in a holding pattern for regulator work due to my backlog but I can make an exception for you.
If you want to send the upper, BCG, or the entire gun I can take a look at whatever you wish to send.
I would prefer to help you remotely before you send it as much as possible to save you time and money. Sending me a gun can get expensive between shipping and labor. I would need test ammo if you sent the upper or entire gun. I have a test trap for live fire testing.
If you shoot me a message here I can give you shipping options.
I will PM momentarily..thank you.
everready73
02-08-21, 08:35
That's very kind of you. I appreciate the kind words.
I'm in a holding pattern for regulator work due to my backlog but I can make an exception for you.
If you want to send the upper, BCG, or the entire gun I can take a look at whatever you wish to send.
I would prefer to help you remotely before you send it as much as possible to save you time and money. Sending me a gun can get expensive between shipping and labor. I would need test ammo if you sent the upper or entire gun. I have a test trap for live fire testing.
If you shoot me a message here I can give you shipping options.
Awesome to have such a resource here!
Straight Shooter
02-08-21, 10:14
Did you score that 42 yet? If so, any updates on it's use?
I did Tom...but as I told SOTAR...I loaded up everything to take to the range this past Saturday..had several springs, bcgs, and the new Tubb 42 coil. It is a very difficult thing for me to get to the range lately.
I get there, and there is a group on the adjoining property rabbit huting...several dogs, and I see some young boys with them. They were less than 100 yards away, and eventually made their way behind the berm...they never saw me.
So, Im not gonna ruin some little fella's hunt, coulda been their first time, & Im an old rabbit hunter myself...so I just sat there awhile, listened to the dogs, and left.
After installing that spring..I tell you it feels mighty "interesting" & I am looking forward to trying it out. I WILL update when I do.
I did Tom...but as I told SOTAR...I loaded up everything to take to the range this past Saturday..had several springs, bcgs, and the new Tubb 42 coil. It is a very difficult thing for me to get to the range lately.
I get there, and there is a group on the adjoining property rabbit huting...several dogs, and I see some young boys with them. They were less than 100 yards away, and eventually made their way behind the berm...they never saw me.
So, Im not gonna ruin some little fella's hunt, coulda been their first time, & Im an old rabbit hunter myself...so I just sat there awhile, listened to the dogs, and left.
After installing that spring..I tell you it feels mighty "interesting" & I am looking forward to trying it out. I WILL update when I do.
I look forward to your update. I'm thinking of getting a 42 for my fixed stock rifle length AR, and running a couple of 36's in my carbines. Wondered what you thought of the 42 before I pull the trigger. Can't mess up a guys hunt, that's for sure.
If I had an AR professionally assembled, I'd spend very little time trying to fix it myself. He built it, so he (or she) should find the problem.
Since you should have at least one spare complete BCG, that's as far as I'd go with troubleshooting. If your spare BCG allows the rifle to run, then the problem will have been identified.
This.
Straight Shooter
02-10-21, 12:23
UPDATE IN OP.
Read your update. Any comments on the feel of the rifle? Any change in felt recoil?
Straight Shooter
02-10-21, 13:11
Read your update. Any comments on the feel of the rifle? Any change in felt recoil?
Tom,
The rifle felt exactly like a 20" should. Felt recoil MAY have been just a tad, a tad more than normal..but Ive not fired another 20" rifle in so long to compare it to. As I said, everything felt brisk & snappy as it should.
Of course- Ive got a lot a shooting to do with this rifle coming up. But if she keeps on like this Im satisfied.
I am glad you got it sorted out.
Andy
Straight Shooter
02-12-21, 06:31
I am glad you got it sorted out.
Andy
Thanks Andy..and on the first try, too! Rare for me.
I will be trying out my newly assembled AR-9 tomorrow. You picked a better weekend for shooting by far!
Andy
Straight Shooter
02-12-21, 07:13
I will be trying out my newly assembled AR-9 tomorrow. You picked a better weekend for shooting by far!
Andy
Throw some pics up brother- what kind is it?
And yes, I went to our church in TN..out in a GORGEOUS spot, I just sit there awhile before shooting sometime. We have a range, a climbing/rappel tower/ropes course. So blessed to be able to shoot in private.
Fill us in how that runs..Id love to have one myself.
Throw some pics up brother- what kind is it?
And yes, I went to our church in TN..out in a GORGEOUS spot, I just sit there awhile before shooting sometime. We have a range, a climbing/rappel tower/ropes course. So blessed to be able to shoot in private.
Fill us in how that runs..Id love to have one myself.
Hopefully I will snap some pics at the range. Its a FM Products Glock-mag lower with a Shockwave Blade Stealth and an upper I put together with a Spinta bolt, KAK (not KAC) 11" barrel, 10" ALG keymod rail and "sport" upper sans dust cover or FA.
I put the upper together quite some time ago to find it just was not reliable with Endomags (bolt compatability). Hopefully it runs well with the dedicated pistol cal lower.
Andy
Straight Shooter
02-12-21, 09:49
Hopefully I will snap some pics at the range. Its a FM Products Glock-mag lower with a Shockwave Blade Stealth and an upper I put together with a Spinta bolt, KAK (not KAC) 11" barrel, 10" ALG keymod rail and "sport" upper sans dust cover or FA.
I put the upper together quite some time ago to find it just was not reliable with Endomags (bolt compatability). Hopefully it runs well with the dedicated pistol cal lower.
Andy
BEST O' LUCK!
So glad to hear of the success with the 42 coil. I believe it has a broader operating envelope than some other springs because it has more preload without a huge increase in area under the curve. It’s very “linear” . Jury’s still out on durability for me but I think the verdict is in on performance.
Straight Shooter
02-13-21, 14:18
So glad to hear of the success with the 42 coil. I believe it has a broader operating envelope than some other springs because it has more preload without a huge increase in area under the curve. It’s very “linear” . Jury’s still out on durability for me but I think the verdict is in on performance.
Just as an aside- Ive used the same RED CS Sprinco RS in my LMT carbine for over 10 years & Lord knows how many thousands of rounds.
Has been ABSOLUTELY 100% in all aspects since day one. Supposed to be a "lifetime" spring & so far it is.
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