View Full Version : 9X19mm Crimp Die vs. 9X19mm (combination) Seater/Crimp Die - Thoughts?
Like the title says.
I have an RCBS carbide die set in 9X19mm with a taper crimp plug for the seater die for my current Dillon 550C. All of my 9X19mm loads will be for semiautomatic pistols, so nothing odd.
Will I get any qualitative benefit from going with a dedicated crimp die in lieu of the combination die? Any safety issues? Yes, I've loaded and shot these before, with no apparent red flags/pressure signs as detected from the brass, just wondering if it's better to go with separate seater/crimp dies for this process.
Regards,
Pat
PracticalRifleman
01-23-21, 05:20
I prefer crimping as part of a separate step from seating. When you use the combination die, it is typically a roll crimp and reliant on the length of the brass. When loading mixed headstamps, the amount of crimp varies. I’d you use a taper crimp, there is enough wiggle room where all cases get a satisfactory crimp.
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lonestardiver
01-23-21, 08:48
9mm is going to be a taper crimp anyway since the cartridge headspaces on the mouth of the case. The benefit of having a separate crimp step is so that you can seat the bullet fully before crimping otherwise you are still seating while crimping is taking place which could shave the sides of the bullet.
Back in early '70s I did testing in 9mm Luger,.45 Auto, and.44 Mag. In all cases, groups were smaller when seating and crimping were separated. Of course, unless you are actually shooting for accuracy at 25 yards or more, it may not matter.
Testing also showed:
1) trimming.44 Mag cases for uniform crimp had no effect at 50 yards and group size was slightly smaller for mixed length (not statistically significant). Later, I repeated for.38 Spl in S&W M52 and again found trimming had no effect even at 50 yards.
2) trimming 9mm Luger cases hurt accuracy, I suspect due to increased head space gap. Groups with longest cases were slightly smaller than with shortest cases.
3) varying degree of crimp for all three cartridges had no significant effect on accuracy at 25 or 50 yards
4) with all three, accuracy was slightly smaller when COL minimized bullet to lede/rifling gap. All loads worked up from start load when COL was varied. Noticed no pressure effects from bullets being in contact with lede
5) Like every one else back then,.357 jacketed bullets and.358 lead bullets were standard for Reloading 9mm Luger. There were no.355 bullets on gun store shelves and only 130gn.356" FMJ for.38 super were available.
6) in.38 spl and.44 Mag,Redding Profile Crimp die gave best accuracy compared to any other roll crimp die I had.
I prefer crimping as part of a separate step from seating. When you use the combination die, it is typically a roll crimp and reliant on the length of the brass. When loading mixed headstamps, the amount of crimp varies. I’d you use a taper crimp, there is enough wiggle room where all cases get a satisfactory crimp.
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Not sure 'exactly' which RCBS dies OP has but my RCBS 9mm seater die does a taper crimp (if adjusted to do that). Not sure if they even make a 9mm die that does a roll crimp?
100% agree with your comments about brass length and how it relates to that crimp.
Most of my brass is Starline and they hold a damn tight tolerance on their lengths. Pretty much seat and crimp in one step on everything pistol if using that brand brass. If using mixed headstamp stuff I might be inclined to seat and crimp in two steps but...
I still use the same RCBS die to do both operations with. I see no need for an extra special die just to do crimping when I already have one that will do that. Some guys will claim they like the second (crimping die) die so they do not have to 'readjust' anything but personally - I am just not seeing the 'difficulty' in making that tiny adjustment to the dies I already have. No matter what if you switch bullet types / profiles you are going to have to readjust things anyway so how much time really got saved having an extra die???
I think the concerns about shaving bullets mentioned above are legitimate concerns if say loading lead or bullets with super thin jackets AND crimping the holy heck out of the rounds but otherwise - Not so much. Most of my pistol rounds I am only 'crimping' to remove the bell from the brass and iron things back out flat. May be called crimping but in reality it is not. Am not mashing any case mouths into any sort of canelure usually - The neck tension is holding the bullet in place well enough...
I prefer crimping as part of a separate step from seating. When you use the combination die, it is typically a roll crimp and reliant on the length of the brass. When loading mixed headstamps, the amount of crimp varies. I’d you use a taper crimp, there is enough wiggle room where all cases get a satisfactory crimp.
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This.
I don't believe safety is a concern with either the combination or seperate dies.
It does add a die change when you use a single stage press, kind of a pain. I use a turret press, so crimping seperately only adds a few seconds to each round. On a progressive press, I don't know if you would even notice.
Andy
PracticalRifleman
01-23-21, 09:56
Not sure 'exactly' which RCBS dies OP has but my RCBS 9mm seater die does a taper crimp (if adjusted to do that). Not sure if they even make a 9mm die that does a roll crimp?
100% agree with your comments about brass length and how it relates to that crimp.
Most of my brass is Starline and they hold a damn tight tolerance on their lengths. Pretty much seat and crimp in one step on everything pistol if using that brand brass. If using mixed headstamp stuff I might be inclined to seat and crimp in two steps but...
I still use the same RCBS die to do both operations with. I see no need for an extra special die just to do crimping when I already have one that will do that. Some guys will claim they like the second (crimping die) die so they do not have to 'readjust' anything but personally - I am just not seeing the 'difficulty' in making that tiny adjustment to the dies I already have. No matter what if you switch bullet types / profiles you are going to have to readjust things anyway so how much time really got saved having an extra die???
I think the concerns about shaving bullets mentioned above are legitimate concerns if say loading lead or bullets with super thin jackets AND crimping the holy heck out of the rounds but otherwise - Not so much. Most of my pistol rounds I am only 'crimping' to remove the bell from the brass and iron things back out flat. May be called crimping but in reality it is not. Am not mashing any case mouths into any sort of canelure usually - The neck tension is holding the bullet in place well enough...
On a progressive press you will perform all steps simultaneously in separate stations. Therefore having two dies is necessary if not doing crimp and seating in one station.
Shooting largely coated lead, it has been a problem for me attempting one operation; many times seeing shaved bullets or bulged cartridges that weren’t properly crimped/bell removed.
You’re right, 9mm is typically a taper crimp. I read the OP half awake this morning and was making a general statement.
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I never tried the combo die. Heard too many problem stories. I'm sure it could be made to work, but it strikes me that they should be separate based experience doing it separately.
On a progressive press you will perform all steps simultaneously in separate stations. Therefore having two dies is necessary if not doing crimp and seating in one station.
Shooting largely coated lead, it has been a problem for me attempting one operation; many times seeing shaved bullets or bulged cartridges that weren’t properly crimped/bell removed.
You’re right, 9mm is typically a taper crimp. I read the OP half awake this morning and was making a general statement.
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If I was shooting mostly coated (or plain) lead I would be doing it in two steps same as you.
In my experience - With quality jacketed bullets, brass that is fairly consistent in length, AND if you are going for minimal on the belling and crimping... Shaving and crushing only happen when the dies are not adjusted properly.
The more a guy tries to work (crimp) the case mouth beyond just ironing out the belling that was done - The more difficult it will be to get everything running smoothly in a single step with a single die. Your comments about the brass length / mixed headstamps and the amount of crimp applied were all spot on but become even MORE important as that die body gets turned down for more crimp than the bare minimum needed to iron out the belling that the other die did.
I like my RCBS 9mm dies. They make a special seater plug for the Speer Gold Dot 9mm bullets which cost nothing but an email. Same seater plug works like a champ with many other brands of 9mm HP I tend to use as well but not telling RCBS that...
https://i.imgur.com/3wFyIUU.jpg
I like the way they did the belling stems you get with many of their straight wall pistol dies. The tiny step before the major belling works well for me with the projectiles I like to use normally.
https://i.imgur.com/0hQAo5P.jpg
With my dies this was the difference in size between the steps (and my craptastic sketch of the shape due to not having a macro camera here right now):
https://i.imgur.com/7BsDBqD.jpg
The brass smears give a good tell of how that expander was adjusted and what it was doing to the brass it was used with in that session.
PracticalRifleman
01-23-21, 18:35
If I was shooting mostly coated (or plain) lead I would be doing it in two steps same as you.
In my experience - With quality jacketed bullets, brass that is fairly consistent in length, AND if you are going for minimal on the belling and crimping... Shaving and crushing only happen when the dies are not adjusted properly.
The more a guy tries to work (crimp) the case mouth beyond just ironing out the belling that was done - The more difficult it will be to get everything running smoothly in a single step with a single die. Your comments about the brass length / mixed headstamps and the amount of crimp applied were all spot on but become even MORE important as that die body gets turned down for more crimp than the bare minimum needed to iron out the belling that the other die did.
I like my RCBS 9mm dies. They make a special seater plug for the Speer Gold Dot 9mm bullets which cost nothing but an email. Same seater plug works like a champ with many other brands of 9mm HP I tend to use as well but not telling RCBS that...
https://i.imgur.com/3wFyIUU.jpg
I like the way they did the belling stems you get with many of their straight wall pistol dies. The tiny step before the major belling works well for me with the projectiles I like to use normally.
https://i.imgur.com/0hQAo5P.jpg
With my dies this was the difference in size between the steps (and my craptastic sketch of the shape due to not having a macro camera here right now):
https://i.imgur.com/7BsDBqD.jpg
The brass smears give a good tell of how that expander was adjusted and what it was doing to the brass it was used with in that session.
That’s the same die I use for applying my bell. I actually have the same set but have slowly swapped to a Redding competition seater and I’m also using the Redding crimp die. Buying the two I ended up with enough cost to justify the full set, and I prefer the Redding carbide sizing die, too.
I mostly shoot action pistol and end up with a lot of bulk mixed stamp, so our applications are a bit different. These days I’m afraid there will be more and more coated lead as components are so short.
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The more a guy tries to work (crimp) the case mouth beyond just ironing out the belling that was done - The more difficult it will be to get everything running smoothly in a single step with a single die.
Anything beyond removing the remaining bell is just smashing the cartridge. While it's possible to seat and crimp in the same step, my experience is that it's much easier to do so in separate steps and the results are better. There's no time savings when running a progressive press, so separate taper crimping is a no-brainer.
The term taper crimp is really a misnomer. Debelling is more descriptive and would eliminate a great deal of confusion. If you ever read where someone tells you to apply a heavy or light taper crimp, that's a clue that they don't know what they're talking about. One should just turn down the taper crimp die enough to remove the remaining bell and that's it.
Anything beyond removing the remaining bell is just smashing the cartridge. While it's possible to seat and crimp in the same step, my experience is that it's much easier to do so in separate steps and the results are better. There's no time savings when running a progressive press, so separate taper crimping is a no-brainer.
The term taper crimp is really a misnomer. Debelling is more descriptive and would eliminate a great deal of confusion. If you ever read where someone tells you to apply a heavy or light taper crimp, that's a clue that they don't know what they're talking about. One should just turn down the taper crimp die enough to remove the remaining bell and that's it.
Not to mention that if you smash (heavy crimp some call it) too far - That lead is not going to spring back like brass would.
Very much agree that removing the bell is all that one 'should' be doing.
If nothing else, it is easier to set the seating and crimping separately, in different dies.
Thanks for a rewarding discussion, guys.
I have the same die set as DG23 and PracticalRifleman (posts 9 & 10 above), but I don't use the belling die as it's done in the same station as powder dispensing (Dillon 550C) for me.
Best,
Pat
Before I got a RL550B, I used the RCBS combo die for .40 S&W and .45 Auto. It certainly takes more time/effort to set up the die, but I had no issues. Unless you've got a powder check setup on you 550C, you might as well crimp separately. I'm not impressed with their sizing dies, but the Lee Factory Crimp dies seem to work pretty well.
If nothing else, it is easier to set the seating and crimping separately, in different dies.
This is my thinking...
It certainly takes more time/effort to set up the die, but I had no issues. Unless you've got a powder check setup on you 550C, you might as well crimp separately.
For decades I used a combined RCBS seat/crimp dies, and they worked well enough, but (1) adjustments were a PITA, and (2) it was constantly filling with bullet lube and crud, and cleaning it was a PITA.
I bought a set of Dillon dies a year or two ago, and they're fabulous. Adjustments are idiot-proof (and I'm a helluvan idiot), and cleaning out the seater is a 10-second job...
I sold my RCBS dies.
This is my thinking...
For decades I used a combined RCBS seat/crimp dies, and they worked well enough, but (1) adjustments were a PITA, and (2) it was constantly filling with bullet lube and crud, and cleaning it was a PITA.
I bought a set of Dillon dies a year or two ago, and they're fabulous. Adjustments are idiot-proof (and I'm a helluvan idiot), and cleaning out the seater is a 10-second job...
I sold my RCBS dies.
How is cleaning the Dillon dies faster?
Just curious. Do not have any Dillon dies to compare to.
I'm interested in hearing an answer to that, too. Sounds like a good option, if their other products are any indication.
Otherwise, I'll probably just adjust my RCBS die to seat without crimping.
How is cleaning the Dillon dies faster?
The actual seating or trim insert is held in place by a clip... Remove the clip, and the whole insert slides out for easy cleaning.
Replace the insert, put the clip back in, and the adjustments are all the same, too. Genius.
To clean the RCBS dies, I either had to remove the entire tool head to see inside, or dismantle the die (and lose all adjustments).
You beat me to it, I was just on Dillon's site and read about that. I agree, great idea and sounds like great execution, too.
How is cleaning the Dillon dies faster?
What is this die cleaning you speak of?? :D
What is this die cleaning you speak of?? :D
You obviously don't load lead bullets in pistol cartridges...
I've now gone mostly to coated (instead of lubed) bullets, but every couple hundred rounds I would get enough lube jammed up in the sizing die that it would actually change the OAL.
vicious_cb
01-26-21, 17:21
Combo sounds like a bad idea. Then again Im pretty anal about the crimp since I mostly load plated bullets. There is definitely a decrease in accuracy depending on how deep you are setting your crimp.
For all handgun reloading, pistol or revolver, I use a four die set.
1st die: size and decap.
2nd die: flare and expand
3rd die: seat bullet
4th die: crimp.
This requires the purchase of an additional seater/crimp die. I pull out the seater plug and use this fourth die for crimping only. It is one more step, but I prefer to keep the operations separate.
Dillon sells their crimp dies separately for the popular pistol calibers and for rifles I use the Lee Factory Crimp dies to apply a light taper. I do it like Uni-Vibe
For all handgun reloading, pistol or revolver, I use a four die set.
1st die: size and decap.
2nd die: flare and expand AND DROP POWDER
3rd die: seat bullet
4th die: crimp.
Me, too, but my RL550B bells the case while dropping powder at the 2nd stage...
This requires the purchase of an additional seater/crimp die.
Uh-uh... Dillon sells 3-die sets that cover stages 1, 3, and 4.
There's a universal powder die for #2, which only requires the correct "funnel" for each powder. Easy.
I use the Lee Factory Crimp dies to apply a light taper.
Please explain what you mean by "light taper crimp".
Please explain what you mean by "light taper crimp".
I adjust the die so it is just lightly crimping -- the die is not honking adjusted down hard... Not sure what the intent of the question is or from what angle so not sure what to address.
I adjust the die so it is just lightly crimping -- the die is not honking adjusted down hard... Not sure what the intent of the question is or from what angle so not sure what to address.
I genuinely am curious what you mean by lightly taper crimping. I've heard that and heavy taper crimp and am at a loss to understand what is meant by either. The point of taper crimping is to remove the remaining flare from the belling step. The point isn't to help hold the bullet. When I setup a taper crimp die, I turn it down enough to completely remove the remaining flare, but no more. Anything more and I'd just be smashing the cartridge. So, there's nothing light or heavy about it. The die is just turned down far enough to do the job, no more and no less. I'm not saying that what you're doing is wrong or produces unsatisfactory results. I'm just curious what you mean.
The point of taper crimping is to remove the remaining flare from the belling step. The point isn't to help hold the bullet. When I setup a taper crimp die, I turn it down enough to completely remove the remaining flare, but no more.
Right. I adjust the crimp so that the mouth of the case is right back to SAAMI-spec or so... IIRC, for .40S&W, spec is 0.423, and I'm crimping to 0.422. I used to do even less, but the chambers of my S&W 610 are tight.
So, there's nothing light or heavy about it. The die is just turned down far enough to do the job, no more and no less.
This might be a transfer/relic from reloading for revolvers, which is a different ball of wax, and in which a "heavy" crimp IS used to retain bullets...
Loading .38Spl, I'll sometimes actually wind up crimping a hair over a wadcutter or into the "crimp groove" of a bullet.
This might be a transfer/relic from reloading for revolvers, which is a different ball of wax, and in which a "heavy" crimp IS used to retain bullets...
I think that's exactly where the confusion comes from. The term taper crimp is a misnomer. It's not really a crimp. It's just debelling.
I genuinely am curious what you mean by lightly taper crimping. I've heard that and heavy taper crimp and am at a loss to understand what is meant by either. The point of taper crimping is to remove the remaining flare from the belling step. The point isn't to help hold the bullet. When I setup a taper crimp die, I turn it down enough to completely remove the remaining flare, but no more. Anything more and I'd just be smashing the cartridge. So, there's nothing light or heavy about it. The die is just turned down far enough to do the job, no more and no less. I'm not saying that what you're doing is wrong or produces unsatisfactory results. I'm just curious what you mean.
Taper crimp is not just for "de-belling". Taper crimp is to adjust/increase the neck tension. LOTS of calibers that have no belling are "crimped" using a taper crimp. Look at all the rifle crimp dies that offer taper crimp. In most cases you are not belling those at all.
The taper crimp is used to do one or more of a few things -- increase the neck tension, even out or normalize the neck tension, "de-bell", etc. One reason to increase neck tension is for auto-loading rifles where you want to make sure the bullet does not get pushed in at all due to the action of loading (or firing for heavy recoiling calibers).
So adjusting your taper crimp die to touch your case and then turning it a fraction of a turn will apply a light crimp or "pushing in" of the brass to the bullet. This is most useful on those rifle rounds that have a cannelure, but even ones without a very light one will even out the neck tension or slightly increase it (you don't want to physically dig-in to the bullet obviously).
For rifle rounds shot from bolt or single shot guns this is less of an issue.
Taper crimp is not just for "de-belling". Taper crimp is to adjust/increase the neck tension. LOTS of calibers that have no belling are "crimped" using a taper crimp. Look at all the rifle crimp dies that offer taper crimp...
You're talking rifle rounds for semi-autos. We're talking pistol rounds.
AFAIK, for semi-auto pistol rounds, neck tension should be set by sizing the case, NEVER by crimping. The "crimp" really is just for "de-belling."
Again, revolvers and semi-auto rifles are different...
You're talking rifle rounds for semi-autos. We're talking pistol rounds.
AFAIK, for semi-auto pistol rounds, neck tension should be set by sizing the case, NEVER by crimping. The "crimp" really is just for "de-belling."
Again, revolvers and semi-auto rifles are different...
If you want to limit it to pistol rounds, I would suggest that a light crimp for the purpose of making sure you have enough neck tension to keep the bullet from dislodging on loading is still a valid reason. I did a bunch of reading on this last night on the web and there is a variety of opinion. But a self-loading pistol can be quite violent on the round as it goes up into the chamber. I still set my 9mm and other similar rounds for the taper crimp die to touch the case and then lower the die a slight amount more. Not much but just a little. YMMV.
So adjusting your taper crimp die to touch your case and then turning it a fraction of a turn will apply a light crimp or "pushing in" of the brass to the bullet.
If you want to limit it to pistol rounds, I would suggest that a light crimp for the purpose of making sure you have enough neck tension to keep the bullet from dislodging on loading is still a valid reason. I did a bunch of reading on this last night on the web and there is a variety of opinion. But a self-loading pistol can be quite violent on the round as it goes up into the chamber. I still set my 9mm and other similar rounds for the taper crimp die to touch the case and then lower the die a slight amount more. Not much but just a little. YMMV.
"Touch the case and a bit more" seems really imprecise to me... I hate to be that kind of geek, but I adjust mine to make my rounds meet spec (measured with a calipers) and/or pass a "plonk" test.
And yes, semi-auto pistols are hard on rounds, and bullet set-back is potentially disastrous, but AFAIK the fix is proper neck tension by sizing in station #1, not crimping in station #4.
"Touch the case and a bit more" seems really imprecise to me... I hate to be that kind of geek, but I adjust mine to make my rounds meet spec (measured with a calipers) and/or pass a "plonk" test.
And yes, semi-auto pistols are hard on rounds, and bullet set-back is potentially disastrous, but AFAIK the fix is proper neck tension by sizing in station #1, not crimping in station #4.
Didn't you screw up your neck tensioning with the belling action? You sized it (and got whatever your die gave you) at station 1. At station 2 (assuming a Dillon RL 550) you belled it a little. So you just messed up whatever station 1 did. Where else are you going to correct this?
Taper crimp is not just for "de-belling". Taper crimp is to adjust/increase the neck tension. LOTS of calibers that have no belling are "crimped" using a taper crimp. Look at all the rifle crimp dies that offer taper crimp. In most cases you are not belling those at all.
We have a fundamental disagreement here. Taper crimping for semiauto pistol cartridges is just for debelling. If you turn down the taper die more than necessary to just remove the bell, you're just smashing the cartridge. When removed from the die, the brass case will spring back more than the lead core bullet. As a result, case tension can actually be decreased by turning the taper crimp die down too much. Look at the inside of a taper crimp die. It's actually smooth. If you don't have enough tension between the bullet and case to prevent the bullet from setting back in the case, then something is wrong. Most likely the cases isn't sized enough (happened to me with a Hornady 40S&W die) or the bullet diameter isn't large enough (happened to me with some IMI 40S&W bullets) or a combination of the two. Fix the problem. Don't bypass it and try to resolve the problem by smashing the cartridge.
There are actually some 9mm bullets that have rebated bases, so it's not necessary to bell the cases. Zero Bullet Company makes a 147gr rebated base that's my favorite 9mm bullet. Because I don't have to bell the cases in order to start seating the bullet, I don't have to use a taper crimp die.
https://static-cdn.ammunitiontogo.com/media/catalog/product/cache/10/image/500x/7ba5e9f67dd04e79a3b6f83c7a514bb4/f/e/fe47e992732118782e0ca671a8700dd3_2.jpg
As for semiauto rifles, those are not taper crimp dies in spite of what the manufacturers might call them. Most are roll crimps which are the same as used on revolver cartridges and some are like the Lee Factory Crimp Dies for bottle necked rifle cartridges. Both types are designed to press the case mouth in to the bullet (cannelure typically) in order to help hold the bullet.
All that said, this is reloading theory. If what you're doing provides safe quality reloads, by all means continue to do what works for you.
Didn't you screw up your neck tensioning with the belling action? You sized it (and got whatever your die gave you) at station 1. At station 2 (assuming a Dillon RL 550) you belled it a little. So you just messed up whatever station 1 did. Where else are you going to correct this?
No...
Station one sizes down the top 2/3rds of the case.
Station two bells only the case mouth... Maybe the top 1mm or or 1/16" or so. (As little as necessary to enable seating without shaving the bullet.) The rest of the case, especially the sides of the case, stays sized.
Station three seats a bullet in the case, and the tension is the insides of the case on the cylindrical part of the bullet.
Station four merely de-bells the case mouth, and doesn't touch the lower part of the case.
vicious_cb
01-28-21, 16:16
No...
Station one sizes down the top 2/3rds of the case.
Station two bells only the case mouth... Maybe the top 1mm or or 1/16" or so. (As little as necessary to enable seating without shaving the bullet.) The rest of the case, especially the sides of the case, stays sized.
Station three seats a bullet in the case, and the tension is the insides of the case on the cylindrical part of the bullet.
Station four merely de-bells the case mouth, and doesn't touch the lower part of the case.
?
Im not sure what dies you have in your station 3 & 4 but my stage 3 seats and removes the bell and my station 4 crimps the neck. This is a standard factory Dillion 4 die set.
No...
Station one sizes down the top 2/3rds of the case.
Station two bells only the case mouth... Maybe the top 1mm or or 1/16" or so. (As little as necessary to enable seating without shaving the bullet.) The rest of the case, especially the sides of the case, stays sized.
Station three seats a bullet in the case, and the tension is the insides of the case on the cylindrical part of the bullet.
Station four merely de-bells the case mouth, and doesn't touch the lower part of the case.
This did not address what I said. The 9mm is not straight walled. It is a tapered case. When you bell it, you just messed up the neck tension at the point where you belled it (obviously not the rest of the case -- but remember this is tapered so the case mouth area is the most important).
I am bowing out of this. I am not an expert. I've loaded 9mm and 40 S&W for years applying a slight taper crimp (as I outlined before) and it has worked for me.
There is no way, without expensive equipment, for you to just de-bell using your die. You don't know exactly what the brass was sized to and the neck tension was before the belling to get back to it. Adjusting your crimp die to touch the case and then lowering the die another slight bit, maybe 1/8 turn, will lightly "taper crimp" it and provide a more uniform neck tension.
YMMV and all that.
Im not sure what dies you have in your station 3 & 4 but my stage 3 seats and removes the bell and my station 4 crimps the neck. This is a standard factory Dillion 4 die set.
I'm using Dillon's pistol dies, three in a set...
The "seat" die in station #3 (on a RL550) only seats the bullet. It doesn't de-bell.
The "crimp" die on station #4 de-bells.
This did not address what I said. The 9mm is not straight walled. It is a tapered case. When you bell it, you just messed up the neck tension at the point where you belled it (obviously not the rest of the case -- but remember this is tapered so the case mouth area is the most important)...
There is no way, without expensive equipment, for you to just de-bell using your die. You don't know exactly what the brass was sized to and the neck tension was before the belling to get back to it. Adjusting your crimp die to touch the case and then lowering the die another slight bit, maybe 1/8 turn, will lightly "taper crimp" it and provide a more uniform neck tension.
YMMV and all that.
I think you're still talking rifle cartridges... Straight-walled pistol cartridges don't have "neck" tension, because they don't have necks.
(9mm IS "straight-walled" in the sense that it's not a bottle-neck case like .30 Mauser or .357SIG...)
It's not the case mouth holding the bullet, it's the bullet deeper in the case.
But yes, YMMV, and if what you're doing works for you, then who am I to judge?
vicious_cb
01-28-21, 16:55
I'm using Dillon's pistol dies, three in a set...
The "seat" die in station #3 (on a RL550) only seats the bullet. It doesn't de-bell.
The "crimp" die on station #4 de-bells.
Not sure how your cartridges look but there is def no bell after stage 3.
PracticalRifleman
01-28-21, 16:57
Definitely no neck on a 9mm. But when you bell the case mouth, that is only a small part of the portion of the case that is sized.
However, yes you do need to have bullet tension to keep the bullet from dislodging from inertia during the feeding process and the force of the slide slamming home. I’d you do not have enough tension, you can create extreme pressure spikes that could cause damage to the pistol and injury the user.
If you load a case into the chamber 3 times and it grows, perhaps a little more “crimp” isn’t a bad thing. If not, you’re doing fine.
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Not sure how your cartridges look but there is def no bell after stage 3.
We're talking pistol rounds, right?
Next reloading session (this weekend), I'll shoot a photo...
perhaps a little more “crimp” isn’t a bad thing.
See Bret's excellent explanation, above, why more crimp IS a bad thing and actually results in less tension and more setback...
PracticalRifleman
01-28-21, 17:04
We're talking pistol rounds, right?
Next reloading session (this weekend), I'll shoot a photo...
See Bret's excellent explanation, above, why more crimp IS a bad thing and actually results in less tension and more setback...
I’ve read it. And it sounds nice. Except that isn’t always the case.
For instance, I just pulled out some factory gold dots and found the first 0.004” of the case to be 0.001” smaller than the the rest of the case which the bullet rests before tapered sidewall restarts.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210128/de9a1cd65f83d4dce24f362dd96ebd8f.jpg
0.376” for the first 0.004” then the “taper” is 0.380”.
I guess Speer Gold Dots are creating “dangerous” situations.
Or perhaps 0.004” doesn’t damage a bullet.
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For instance, I just pulled out some factory gold dots and found the first 0.004” of the case to be 0.001” smaller than the the rest of the case which the bullet rests before tapered sidewall restarts.
0.376” for the first 0.004” then the “taper” is 0.380”.
I guess Speer Gold Dots are creating “dangerous” situations.
Or perhaps 0.004” doesn’t damage a bullet.
That's interesting...
2¢:
1. I'm not sure 0.004" is enough to matter (or even measure consistently).
I'd be interested to see a pulled bullet, and whether the jacket is marked by the mouth of the case. (I bet it's not.)
2. Speer is starting with cases that are sized waaay tight, and that's what's holding the bullet in position, not an extra 0.004" crimp...
Look closely, and you can see that the case is slightly hourglass shaped: Wider at the base, narrow in the middle, and then wider again around the bullet, where the bullet has stretched the case.
vicious_cb
01-28-21, 19:21
That's interesting...
2¢:
1. I'm not sure 0.004" is enough to matter (or even measure consistently).
I'd be interested to see a pulled bullet, and whether the jacket is marked by the mouth of the case. (I bet it's not.)
2. Speer is starting with cases that are sized waaay tight, and that's what's holding the bullet in position, not an extra 0.004" crimp...
Look closely, and you can see that the case is slightly hourglass shaped: Wider at the base, narrow in the middle, and then wider again around the bullet, where the bullet has stretched the case.
They are crimped, look at these factory pull downs. Remember these are plated bullets, the jackets are thinner and softer. I load a ton of plated bullets and my station 4 crimp isnt deep enough to gouge the jacket like these but its plenty strong enough to take a couple of hard whacks from a kinetic puller.
Im guessing factory Gold Dots have an aggressive crimp to prevent catastrophic bullet set back esp when you can trust your average cop to re-chamber a bullet a dozen times...
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmrbullets.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2F9mm-124-GD-HP-Pld.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1
PracticalRifleman
01-28-21, 19:34
That's interesting...
2¢:
1. I'm not sure 0.004" is enough to matter (or even measure consistently).
I'd be interested to see a pulled bullet, and whether the jacket is marked by the mouth of the case. (I bet it's not.)
2. Speer is starting with cases that are sized waaay tight, and that's what's holding the bullet in position, not an extra 0.004" crimp...
Look closely, and you can see that the case is slightly hourglass shaped: Wider at the base, narrow in the middle, and then wider again around the bullet, where the bullet has stretched the case.
0.004” is quite easy to measure with even mediocre equipment. I can replicate this measurement consistently.
I’ve pulled them before, and you can certainly see a crimp line. It isn’t significant, but it’s certainly there.
Of course, cases are usually hourglass shaped to some extent, but the first few thousands at the case mouth is smaller than the rest of the top of the hourglass, which indicates intentional crimping...and it’s repeated with all the rounds I have on hand and is consistently around 0.003-0.004”.
I’m quite certain Speer is indeed crimping self-defense ammunition. I think I have some Federal around I could measure as well. If I recall, it also looks intentionally crimped.
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They are crimped, look at these factory pull downs. Remember these are plated bullets, the jackets are thinner and softer.
All those lines show is that too much taper crimp has been applied which resulted in the bullets being deformed. This does not equate to a better hold on the bullet versus the taper crimp die being turned down just enough to remove the bell.
Bottom line: If one relies on a taper crimp to help prevent bullet setback, then they're doing something wrong. Proper sizing and seating produces enough tension between the bullet and case to prevent setback.
PracticalRifleman
01-28-21, 21:26
Why, would you speculate, is Speer and Federal doing it with their duty loads?
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vicious_cb
01-28-21, 21:53
Why, would you speculate, is Speer and Federal doing it with their duty loads?
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Do you trust some cop not to chamber the same round a dozen times?
PracticalRifleman
01-28-21, 22:07
Do you trust some cop not to chamber the same round a dozen times?
That was the suggestion I made earlier. And if if were problematic to lightly crimp rounds, wouldn’t we have seen problems with crimped duty rounds? Instead they tend to be some of the most accurate and consistent loads on the market.
Crimping isn’t a problem; over-crimping is a problem. Perhaps some have had experience only with over-crimping.
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vicious_cb
01-28-21, 22:50
That was the suggestion I made earlier. And if if were problematic to lightly crimp rounds, wouldn’t we have seen problems with crimped duty rounds? Instead they tend to be some of the most accurate and consistent loads on the market.
Crimping isn’t a problem; over-crimping is a problem. Perhaps some have had experience only with over-crimping.
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Depends on the bullet. My plated bullets are easily deformed from crimping, I havent hacksawed one to compare to a Gold Dot but my guess is they are pretty similar. Something like an HST, with its thick jacket and cannalure, probably isnt going to deform even with a heavy crimp.
I set my die to crimp enough without deforming the bullet but strong enough where I can smash the nose of the bullet with my hands into concrete without any bullet setback.
I think you're still talking rifle cartridges... Straight-walled pistol cartridges don't have "neck" tension, because they don't have necks.
(9mm IS "straight-walled" in the sense that it's not a bottle-neck case like .30 Mauser or .357SIG...)
It's not the case mouth holding the bullet, it's the bullet deeper in the case.
But yes, YMMV, and if what you're doing works for you, then who am I to judge?
No I am not talking rifles.
Yes pistol cases have "necks". Even if the case is straight. The neck is the part below the case mouth where the bullet seats. No, 9mm are not straight walled cases. They are tapered. Unlike most other pistol rounds. Rifle cases with a shoulder are called "bottle neck" cases, because the neck is narrower than the rest of the cases.
I also dislike the case forming ring on the Lee pistol crimp die. Their rifle crimp die is tits though.
I appreciate the poster who said they use a second seat/crimp die, using one die to seat and one to crimp. I have two sets of dies for 38/357 and the Lee crimp die just got replaced.
Andy
I set my die to crimp enough without deforming the bullet but strong enough where I can smash the nose of the bullet with my hands into concrete without any bullet setback.
When pressing my loads as hard as I can on my workbench, the bullets do not setback prior to taper crimping. If they do, then I know that I don't have adequate tension between the case and bullet.
If you look at a loaded cartridge and can just see where the bottom of the bullet is inside the case, that's ideal because you know that there is adequate tension between the case and bullet.
I also dislike the case forming ring on the Lee pistol crimp die. Their rifle crimp die is tits though.
I completely agree. The Lee FCD for straight walled pistol cases is simply a substitute for doing it right to begin with. If you have to post size a cartridge, then something is wrong. The Lee FCD for bottle necked rifle cartridges is an improvement over the more common roll crimp.
PracticalRifleman
01-29-21, 09:14
Tension between the case and bullet is fixed with a given die. 9mm sizers aren’t like rifle sized where bushings can be utilized to make subtle changes.
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Tension between the case and bullet is fixed with a given die.
All else being equal, yes. However, everything else is not always equal. I'll elaborate on the situation that I touched on before. I'd been reloading 40S&W for over ten years using the same Hornady sizing die. To this point, I never had a setback issue, but I always tested each batch by pushing on the bullet to see if I could force a setback. Then one day I made 50 and I found that I could push the bullet in by pressing the cartridge on my reloading table. I was perplexed because I had not changed anything in my procedure. Then I got to measuring. It turns out that the IMI bullets I was using measured 0.4000" to 0.4005" in diameter. This is about 0.0005" to 0.0010" smaller than is typical. But I had used them before without issue. I then measured the Remington brass that I was using. It was about 0.0005" thinner than the Speer and Winchester brass that I'd also been using. However, I'd used this same Remington brass successfully in the past without issue. Then of course there was the Hornady sizing die that I'd been using from my start. So I called Hornady because they've always been helpful. They had me measure the diameter of the carbide sizing ring. I was spot on with what they said it should be. They told me that the smaller diameter bullets combined with the thinner brass was causing the issue. Of course I was thinking that perhaps the carbide sizing ring in their die was just not small enough. So, I ordered a sizing die from Redding. When I got it I measured the diameter of the carbide sizing ring and found it to be 0.001" less than the Hornady. I then was able to use the Redding sizing die to load the IMI bullets in the Remington brass. When tested, the bullets didn't setback. In all it was the thinner brass, slightly smaller diameter bullets and the Hornady sizing die that combined to produce inadequate neck tension. If only one of these had been different, it's unlikely that I would have encountered the problem. I could have tried to mask the issue by turning my taper crimp die down too much or by using a Lee FCD to post size the cartridges which may or may not have worked to one degree or another. However, I was able to permanently solve the problem by understanding it and adjusting one of the variables. Was there something wrong with the Remington brass, IMI bullets or Hornady sizing die? No. It's just that the combination of all three didn't work. Now that I'm using the Redding die to size, I'm less likely to encounter a setback problem going forward.
PracticalRifleman
01-29-21, 19:00
Or for instance, a mild taper crimp solves the issue without creating problems. But back to what I was saying, the only way to change tension is to get a new die. It’s a shame we don’t have adjustable dies like we do with rifles.
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Coal Dragger
02-07-21, 04:29
I refuse to use a seating die for pistol or rifle that also serves to apply a taper crimp or roll crimp. I have two presses, a Dillon XL 650 and a Redding T7 which allows me a luxurious number of stations in the tool head for a separate crimp die. For any of my loading for semiautomatic pistols or rifles I apply a taper crimp that is appropriate for the projectile.
For example lightly jacketed, plated, or polymer coated pistol bullets get a very light crimp. Enough to remove case mouth belling from prior powder charging, and give just a smidge more tension at the case mouth. Before I start running a batch I pull the bullets to ensure just the slightest mark on the bullet and no jacket, lead, or polymer costing is being shaved off.
Bullets with heavier jackets and no cannelure get the same mild taper crimp, nothing to be gained going any heavier and just makes for increased effort of the press handle.
Any bullet with a cannelure I will adjust the crimp die to move the crimp into contact with the cannelure. Most duty ammo I’ve ever purchased where the bullet has a cannelure is made this way, both rifle and pistol and with few exceptions isn’t that much harder of a crimp, we’re talking less that 1/4 turn of the crimp die. That buys you a round that will put up with a lot more administrative loading and unloading, as well as just generally rough handling.
The only exception is for ammunition that is capable of generating serious recoil. Especially hard kicking revolvers. I load for .454 Casull, and full power loads with heavy for caliber bullets need a very heavy crimp. If you don’t do this there is a good chance you’ll end up with a tied up gun as your first couple of shots turn your revolver into a kinetic bullet puller. In my Speer manual there is a specific procedure outlined on how to use a taper crimp die to very slowly and very carefully push your brass fully into the cannelure of their Gold Dot Deep Curl bullet. I have yet to get any pull on these and as an added bonus the heavy crimp improved accuracy for me, probably made a more consistent ignition event for the 30.0gr of H110 since that powder doesn’t appreciate low pressure combustion chambers like a bullet moving too soon from the primer or very initial powder burn. I’ve read similar instructions for dangerous game rifles for the same reasons on combustion and bullet set back due to heavy rounds slamming into the front of the magazine under recoil as the rest of the gun comes back.
I’m not sure why everyone is arguing about this aspect, use some common sense and adjust your crimp according to your projectile and purpose. As an added bonus a separate crimp die makes doing that way easier. Also makes setting up your seating die way easier and more consistent.
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