XS Sights?

[Blinking Dog]

Anyone have a negative reaction to XS Sights? I have read LAV's recommendation for Heine or Novak sights, but neither look like what I'm interested in. (Heine dots look small to me) I want a straight 8 kind of sight, but like a front sight that stands out. I especially like a tritium sight with a white outline for daylight use. The XS sight looks like it fits what I'm looking for but don't know anyone who uses them. So, anyone have a good or bad opinion?

[Jay Cunningham]

XS Big Dot sights have a degree of controversy surrounding them and have in the past led to heated debates.

[thopkins22]

I currently have a pair of 24/7 Big Dots on my G19. IM me your address and I'll send them to you as soon as I get a set from Warren Tactical.

The front sight is very easy to watch during recoil/reacquire for the next shot. However the rear sight allowed a lot of play in the groups. At night, I absolutely love the way the tritium aligns.

ETA: I'm ditching them because I shoot more accurately with regular pistol sights...but probably not faster.

[Magsz]

What hopkins said is right on the money.

I shoot very fast with my XS sights (at least fast for me, still definitely a beginner) but i do not shoot precisely.

Dont get me wrong, i can shoot groups but invariably i always tend to shoot tighter groups with my stock sight equipped M&P compact.

I recently started up a thread in regards to the ideal self defense sights simply because i was thinking to myself, what if i ever had to take a precise shot in a self defense scenario? Would i trust the xs sights to allow me to shoot where i need to?

Then again, i would imagine that most shooting in a self defense scenario is reactionary instead of deliberately aimed. Then again, i have no idea in this regard. Bah, i hate lacking knowledge. :/

[Blinking Dog]

XS Big Dot sights have a degree of controversy surrounding them and have in the past led to heated debates.

Sorry to pick a scab. I tried to search "XS Sights" on the forum but it didn't work.

In a nut shell, what is the controversy? That they're too big to be accurate?
I notice they have "big dot" and "regular dot" front sight styles. Maybe the "regular dot" addresses the issue?

[Blinking Dog]

I currently have a pair of 24/7 Big Dots on my G19. IM me your address and I'll send them to you as soon as I get a set from Warren Tactical.

The front sight is very easy to watch during recoil/reacquire for the next shot. However the rear sight allowed a lot of play in the groups. At night, I absolutely love the way the tritium aligns.

ETA: I'm ditching them because I shoot more accurately with regular pistol sights...but probably not faster.

Dude, you rock. IM sent.

I bought the Glock as an alternative to my 1911 when carrying the big gun isn't practical. I see it as a purely defensive gun so it sounds like the XS Sights will fit my needs.

By the way, did you install them yourself or do you need a gunsmith?

[thopkins22]

By the way, did you install them yourself or do you need a gunsmith?

I had a gunsmith do it, but it's not required.

XS Sight Install http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAahHP7z7so

[matthewdanger]

I had XS sights for a little while, as did a friend of mine. We both found that once we got serious about training we progressed to a point where we could get hits just as fast with more traditional sights (like Heinie or Warren Tac) as well as having the ability to be more precise. I guess I out grew the XS sights in a way.

[the_fallguy]

XS sights are definitely faster than standard sights when you're using a "flash sight picture" to shoot with, but I find them slower for accurate aimed fire.

Since I started doing more realistic scenario training along with a little force on force, I have changed my priorities concerning sights. I find that most of the time I never use the sights when things get out of hand (this situation holds pretty true for everyone that I train with as well). I focus on the "bad guy" and concentrate on moving off the X, and the sights just get overlooked. The exception so far is when I have to take an aimed shot, in which case I want the most precise sight picture I can get. For me that is a standard three dot tritium sight.

I have used both the standard dot and big dot 24/7 sights on my carry pistols. I think they are an excellent sight platform, depending on your needs and intended uses. They just don't seem to fit my needs very well anymore, so I am in the process of switching things back to the old three dot sights.

[Paul45]

I had the Big Dot on my G30. It was fast up close (15 yds). I did a test - Big Dot vs no sights - not much difference on speed or accuracy - I went to TFO's for the GREEN GLOW all the time. Just as fast, I can see them in low light and bright light and they are accurate at distances. They still work even when the green fiber falls out - the sight functions as a normal sight plus the night glow still works. They are good for old eyes. The only thing the they do not work well on is steel plates and targets painted dayglow green (Holloween match).

[Jason Burton]

I like the front sight to present the fastest sight picture without any loss of precision. I never found the XS sight to help with either of those requirements and I never saw the logic of a round top sight on a pistol.

The front sight being our last visual reference for the bullet, precision has always seemed paramount.

[oregonshooter]

I use to run only Heinie Straight Eights on my 1911 an G17.

I am a B-class IPSC shooter (LIM10) and Expert ESP IDPA shooter.

I haven't shot IPSC for a few years, but I shot the IDPA qual one month with a G17 with Heinies and a few months later with an HKP7 with bigdots on it.

This was the first match I had ever shot the gun and first time using the bigdots. I shot EXP in ESP where I was Markman "Sharp Shooter" a few months before with the G17/Heinie. I moved up rank by at least a 30% increase. No practice between quals, just a few matches!

I now shoot IDPA with the G17 and bigdots and am faster than I have been in the past 2 years. I was consistent with two other shoots every month trading 1,2,3 spots in the match. I can say that I can beat them on a much more consistent basis now.

IDPA does not reward excessive speed without accuracy like IPSC so just shooting faster at my level is not going to increase my ranking unless I maintain the precision.

At combat ranges and shooting on the move the bigdot is king. It's better than slide indexing because it's a more refined SP that does not take extra time, your brain uses the refined input of the BD automatically.

At 0-30yards they rule.
At 30-50yards they are slower.
In low light, they rule.

I have them on my AK also and it is blazing fast at 0-50 yards. Faster than the T-1 dot on it now, but the sight is new to me so I attribute the T1's slower speed to my unfamiliarity.

I'm hooked for the reason that they do everything a standard notch/post does but faster at real life ranges. I can shoot past 50 yards with them also but why? I can also make a head shot at 25yards pretty fast, but why would I? See my reasoning?

[ToddG]

XS sights tend to help two kinds of shooters:

Those who don't understand how to use their sights properly ... beginners who are still learning the basics of speed shooting may see a small hike in their performance but at the cost of their marksmanship fundamentals. Since the slow accurate marksmanship fundamentals are a lot more important to master at that stage than speed, it's a bad trade off.
Those whose vision has deteriorated to the point where focusing on a standard front post is no longer possible. For these folks, the best option is to use the smallest XS sight you are comfortable with (small dot if you can, big dot if you must) and a standard rear notch that has been widened to accommodate the wider front sight.


XS sights will let you shoot faster if you don't know how to use your sights properly. This is why you see so many shooters talk about how they used to use them but they don't seem to help anymore or, as matthewdanger put it earlier in the thread, "grow out of them."

Shooting fast while maintaining acceptable accuracy is in large part about understanding what an acceptable sight picture is. For traditional notch and post sights, you have the ability to get a very refined and precise sight alignment ... but it takes time. The trick is learning that you don't have to get that very refined and precise sight alignment to hit your target. Just like you don't have to drive exactly in the center of your lane while on the highway, shooting fast is about knowing how far you can veer without crashing.

Because the XS sights don't lend themselves as well to precision (the sight picture is by its nature "rougher") some folks find an immediate hike in speed ... basically, you can't tell how much you're veering in your lane but you know you're still in your lane.

The problem is that when accuracy is called for, it is harder to achieve. That doesn't mean it's impossible, it's just that you need to work harder and take more time to eek maximum precision out of the XS sights compared to a more traditional notch and post design.

Another seeming benefit of the XS sights is that, as thopkins22 pointed out, it can be easier to track in recoil and generally is easier to pick up. However, there are other options that provide similar results without the compromises ... and with practice you can track the front sight regardless of whether it's a Big Dot, Trijicon, or plain old black post.

Personally, I found that even after taking a month (and a few thousand rounds) of dedicated effort into using the XS sights I was no faster at close wide-open targets and significantly slower at distant or smaller targets. The same "roughness" of the sight picture that may give the sense that you can go faster also translates into much less visual feedback. The result is that you can jerk or pull shots without realizing it. Calling your shots with the XS sights is much harder than with a traditional system.

[John Frazer]

Another seeming benefit of the XS sights is that, as thopkins22 pointed out, it can be easier to track in recoil and generally is easier to pick up. However, there are other options that provide similar results without the compromises ... and with practice you can track the front sight regardless of whether it's a Big Dot, Trijicon, or plain old black post.



Though I admit I haven't tried these sights personally, I have a personal theory that there's also a degree of "selection bias" among people who have found them helpful.

That is, I suspect many XS users are going to the XS straight from factory sights. In many cases, this means they're going their straight from Glock factory sights, which have a fat front post and too-narrow rear notch. Naturally, that change would increase the shooter's speed.

Personally, my first aftermarket sights were Heinie Straight Eights. I chose them because the instructors I trained with all liked them, and they seemed like a superior type of night sight. I soon learned that having a narrower front post and/or wider rear notch also helps me shoot faster than with the factory sights, but can be very accurate when needed.

Notice that I said it helped me shoot "faster." Having watched Todd and others shoot very fast (in absolute terms) with similar designs, I am sure that my own deficiencies in speed (which Todd can attest to) are not due to having poor sights on my gun.

[ToddG]

JF -- You hit it squarely on the head, my friend. A thinner front sight in particular can be a real help in achieving speed without compromising accuracy.

On the one hand, you've got that "rougher" sight picture because it's harder to tell exactly where the front post is in relation (horizontally at least) to the rear notch. But because you have a smaller aiming point, like having a smaller MOA dot on a RDS, you get a simultaneous improvement in accuracy that compensates for the rougher picture. It's sort of a free picnic.

One reason so many people like u-notch rear sights is because the U-notch tends to be much narrower than a traditional square notch, and in combination with a narrow front sight can be very beneficial for maximizing accuracy. However, it doesn't tend to help most people with speed. (I've met a few people who claimed switching to the u-notch improved their speed, but invariably that switch in sight system also coincided with some increased training or a change in skill focus that had them practicing speed more ... )

[John Frazer]

JF -- You hit it squarely on the head, my friend.

At least I can hit SOMEthing. ;)

[oregonshooter]

Todd,
I must be the only exception to your theory. I switched to an unknown gun with a new sight and got increased speed at no loss of accuracy.

I went from the Heinie (favored sight) to the BIGDOT and gained speed without loss of accuracy at a level way beyond "basic shooter" which does not fit your profile of a BIGDOT user.

I also showed greater speed and same accuracy with the exact gun I had used the Heinies on a few months before.

I also learned the "sight continuum" from Brian Enos years before Gabe S. even new what it was and was still knocking "point shooting" at closer ranges.

I think you need to ad a "#3" user to your list that describes me and many others I believe.

3. Shooters that understand the sight continuum, have trained in point shooting, shoot at high speeds with accuracy but LIKE the bigdots better than traditional NP because it allows them to accept a SP that is "seeing what you need to see" more quickly than using a traditional NP which makes you evaluate a little longer if that SP is enough "seeing" to take the shot.


Make sense?

[Alpha Sierra]

Todd,
I must be the only exception to your theory. I switched to an unknown gun with a new sight and got increased speed at no loss of accuracy.

I went from the Heinie (favored sight) to the BIGDOT and gained speed without loss of accuracy at a level way beyond "basic shooter" which does not fit your profile of a BIGDOT user.

I also showed greater speed and same accuracy with the exact gun I had used the Heinies on a few months before.

I also learned the "sight continuum" from Brian Enos years before Gabe S. even new what it was and was still knocking "point shooting" at closer ranges.

I think you need to ad a "#3" user to your list that describes me and many others I believe.

3. Shooters that understand the sight continuum, have trained in point shooting, shoot at high speeds with accuracy but LIKE the bigdots better than traditional NP because it allows them to accept a SP that is "seeing what you need to see" more quickly than using a traditional NP which makes you evaluate a little longer if that SP is enough "seeing" to take the shot.


Make sense?

Makes perfect sense to me.

[ToddG]

oregonshooter -- I don't doubt for a minute you can shoot fast and accurately with the XS sights. My comments, however, were made based on my experience using the sights and dealing with others (students, associates, competitors, clients) since they were called Ashleys.

I'm pretty familiar with the "see what you need to see" concept ... in fact, I own the domain name seewhatyouneedtosee.com. :cool:

If they're working great for you, rock on. Get back to us in a year or two, I'll be very interested to see if you still think they're your best option.

[oregonshooter]

So the people you see "out growing" them are actually "shooters" and not "tourists?"

For competition the Heinies are definitely better when you start adding in 50 yard hits on a pepper popper, but for "realistic" defensive scenarios I feel the extra speed and especially the refined index for moving shots (you can't get that with a NP, you are using the FP only by then) is worth the trade off.

I guess you would have to define "out grow" before we could look at this more scientifically. I'd be interested in exactly what that means to the people using the term.

[ToddG]

oregon -- Yes, it's the serious shooters that I see transition away from them after a while. It helps some of them better understand sight tracking and the whole "see what you need to see" concept, but once they get that understanding the sight holds them back.

I agree with you that I wouldn't choose a sight system for a ccw/duty pistol based on its superiority at 50yd.

I'm not tracking -- bad pun, sorry -- on your "moving shots" comment. Whether you mean shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, or shooting moving targets while on the move, regular notch and post sights are certainly workable.

How many Bianchi Cups have been won with XS sights? Given the importance of the mover stage, one would assume that if the XS sights were really that big an advantage they'd be popular.

[oregonshooter]

By "refined index on moving shots" I meant that when you are exploding off the line running at full speed away from the target to your 8-oclock or 4-oclock and trying to put good COM hits in at the same time, a NP traditional SP is not going to happen.

You will likely be using a slide index, but the BDots allow for a more refined slide index because you do use the shallow notch to get a rear/fp index. This gives me greater accuracy at rapid movement shots than using a slide index or FP only index.

That is where they shine the most IMO and where I expect my fight to happen on the streets. Others may expect their fight to happen some other way, and I'm not saying that anything can't happen on the street, but stats support my position.

Even if they don't, there is nothing MORE I need from sights in a defensive shooting than what the bigdots can give me. Nothing more that traditional NP will add to the package at self defense distances and 99% of expected scenarios based on actual shootings.

When that 1% 40yard head shot on a mall "active shooter" does come up.... I can still make the shot with my BDs and that fraction of a second delay to refine the coarser SP of the BDs than NP is not going to matter IMO.

What is making shooters "out grow" the bigdots in your opinion? Is it competition related only? Why would you think that James Yeager (a big proponent of them) has not out grown them?

PS. Enjoyed reading your website. I'll be timing myself in the FAST drill next chance I get.

[Jay Cunningham]

Why would you think that James Yeager (a big proponent of them) has not out grown them?

Because he sells them?

[oregonshooter]

Lame.

[Jay Cunningham]

Lame.

I agree.

[NCPatrolAR]

but stats support my position.

and


Even if they don't,


So which is it?

[oregonshooter]

Even if they don't in your opinion....

Stats can be twisted to support both sides of any argument was what I was implying before anyone else did.

Sorry for the confusion.

PS. the stats I was refering to are the 3/3/3 rules, that I don't believe in myself but the stats support them.

[NCPatrolAR]

meh...... enjoy your Big Dots. I tried those things and found they sucked compared to traditional sights. But to each their own.



Yeager and his NASCAR "Go big or go home" product placement.........who cares

[oregonshooter]

NCPatrolAR,

Care to explain what made you give them up? Where did you see their short comings the most and where do you see notch and post excelling past them?

[NCPatrolAR]

I found them to be less precise, due to the size of the dot, at all ranges that I was using them at. Sure I could put rounds on the target; but I prefer to being able to place the rounds exactly where I want them. Also, the large dot lead to me slowing my shots since I was unsure of exactly where the round would be impacting.

[oregonshooter]

Sounds like you are wanting a precision sighting system beyond bad breath distance and did not find any benefit in the SP during rapid movement shooting. Is that correct?

Did you do any testing between the two in the area of rapid movement while shooting? I've yet to see anyone be able to truly move as fast as they can and use the more refined SP of a NP sight.

Try this drill:

Starting in front of a target with gun concealed, at timer buzzer run to your 7-oclock direction as fast as you can, while drawing the gun and putting rounds on target until you get to 25 yards.

Do this with sights taped over, tradition NP sights, and BigDots.

What I found was as I stated before, is an increase in good hits using the bigdots, not a loss of accuracy, because at movement you are not using that refined NP sight picture anyway.

Did you test them against a timer in such a way?

If you are static and shooting then I would say the edge goes to the traditional NP also, but not eough to turn bigdot shots into misses IMO.

[NCPatrolAR]

I'm not interested in a sighting system that requires me to be running to my 7 or 5 o' clock to see a benefit. With a traditional sighting system, I more than capable of getting the exact hits that I need. I've found this to be the case through static drills, movement drills, Sim gun work, and runs through more dynamic scenerios.


And I'm not talking about the Big Dots always producing misses; just rounds not in the exact place I want them. I'm not in the "just put rounds somewhere on the bad guy" camp .

[oregonshooter]

Sounds like you are happy with your slide index shooting for dynamic movement, and do not want to give up accuracy (which the NP gives) for farther/harder shooting. Is that correct?

How exact are you putting your rounds on target in the described type of scenario? I'm talking 8" circle, you consistantly get a better group running max speed?

You said you are not interested in a system that requires dynamic movement to see an advantage over NP systems. I assume you mean at the sacrifice of a refined SP for distance shooting.

If that is the case, at what distance did you find the BigDot failing to hold to your standard of accuracy with movement and without?

[NCPatrolAR]

I'm not indexing off my slide; I'm using the sights. And I dont want to give up any accuracy; not just accuracy at distance. I found the Big Dots to be lacking in all ranges and situations that I used them; not just for distance work.

[oregonshooter]

Gotcha,

I've never been able to run (like this speed... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6SqlF-XiuU) and see a SP in a NP setup.

That video was using a slide index, not bigdots BTW, I get a tighter group with the bigdots, but those hits are not what I consider "throwing rounds" by any means.

Way too much bouncing for me. I've never seen anyone do it for that matter. Any chance you have a video of you doing this?

I'm wondering if we are talking different speeds maybe?

[ToddG]

By "refined index on moving shots" I meant that when you are exploding off the line running at full speed away from the target to your 8-oclock or 4-oclock and trying to put good COM hits in at the same time, a NP traditional SP is not going to happen.

You will likely be using a slide index, but the BDots allow for a more refined slide index because you do use the shallow notch to get a rear/fp index. This gives me greater accuracy at rapid movement shots than using a slide index or FP only index.

Setting aside the question of whether over-the-shoulder shots at a full run is a practical thing ...

I'm not sure why you assume notch & post sights won't work just as well in that instance. Maybe they don't work for you but finding the front sight is finding the front sight. If the sight is in the notch it's a hit, and if the sight is out of the notch it's a miss. A sight system that gives more leeway than that fails to provide the green-light / red-light I want before I press the trigger.


That is where they shine the most IMO and where I expect my fight to happen on the streets. Others may expect their fight to happen some other way, and I'm not saying that anything can't happen on the street, but stats support my position.

Can you please provide these stats? I've seen a lot of OIS videos and don't recall much "over the shoulder while running in the opposite direction" shooting. I've done quite a bit of FOF training and haven't seen that, either. It's contrary to the natural human startle/stress response which involves squaring up on the perceived threat.


When that 1% 40yard head shot on a mall "active shooter" does come up.... I can still make the shot with my BDs and that fraction of a second delay to refine the coarser SP of the BDs than NP is not going to matter IMO.

Have you actually timed your 40yd head shots with both notch & post and XS sights? I'd be very surprised if someone at your skill level was only a "fraction of a second" slower with the XS. But even if it is only half a second more, that's a lot of time for someone to pop into your line of fire, etc. in that scenario.

Though to be honest, if you think you can make a 40yd head shot with a pistol on someone in a chaotic crowded mall shooting without risking a miss or hitting someone who pops into your line of fire, you're a far better shooter than I am.


What is making shooters "out grow" the bigdots in your opinion? Is it competition related only? Why would you think that James Yeager (a big proponent of them) has not out grown them?

I'm not privy to nor interested in speculating on Yeager's motivations.

Do folks outgrow it because of competition? In a sense, that is one big motivator. The more seriously you get into competition, the more skilled your "opponents" will be and the harder the shooting problems you'll see. When you start to realize that everyone beating you is using a different type of sight and they all think it's superior, that's a clue.

Also, competitive shooters tend to be some of the more dedicated, serious practitioners when it comes to maximizing human performance with a pistol. As such, they work to achieve goals that are well beyond the typical ccw class or LE qualification.

The XS sights are working for you right now. There's nothing wrong with that, and no one here is calling you out because of it. Just understand that no one at a really high level -- in competition, SOF, SWAT, etc. -- is using them.

My guess (and please don't take this as a criticism, it's not meant that way) is the XS sights are helping you overcome a deficiency in your technique right now. Really, that's not a slam ... we all have deficiencies. If the XS sights are letting you track your sights better or get faster initial front sight acquisition, great. But once you internalize those skills, the benefit of the XS sights will diminish while the disadvantages will remain. That's the point at which you'll likely revert back to a more traditional sight picture.


PS. Enjoyed reading your website. I'll be timing myself in the FAST drill next chance I get.

Thanks! Be sure to post your results. We're always interested to hear how folks are doing on that particular drill. I've run a dozen buddies through a "coin attempt" over the past couple of weeks but so far no success.

[Robb Jensen]

Notch and post is 'the way' for iron sights, just ask TGO (The Great One, aka Rob Leatham) guess what he uses.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX_-0FnRUBg&feature=related

Sight alignment and trigger control are the most important things in good pistol shooting if you don't can't do either, nothing will help you.

Also see USPSAs current Limited champion SGT. Travis Tomasie of the USAMU (talk about SPEED and ACCURACY!)

http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/shooting.html?feedPID=vdVm7vpu7Wwhw_r0Lu85cQQt0fFcjTQ_

[jmart]

What was the distance there, two to four yards?

This is me (courtesy of Templar) at the recent Pennington Concealed Carry class: Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBPxbvvoj7M&feature=related)

I'd say the distance was twice as far away and the target was much smaller (5.5" circle). You'll have to take my word for it that I was using my notch & post sights.

Plenty of other guys at the class were doing just as well, again using normal sights.

Again, not trying to tell you that the sights aren't working for you. Just trying to make sure you don't fall into the trap of believing it's impossible for you to do as well (or better) with notch & post sights ... if not today, then sometime down the road.

edited to add:



Respectfully, I think it's a mistake to assume that either NCPatrolAR or I don't care about dynamic reactive shooting. The danger you're running into is that's a line a lot of the Big Dot marketeers use ... that the XS sights are more about 'fighting' and anyone who doesn't like them has a different shooting interest.

I agree 100% with your comments about assessing them. Get a timer, measure your hits. For the record, my opinion on the XS sights isn't borne solely from watching other shooters or reading about it online. :cool: Years ago I gave them a very honest try (putting thousands of rounds down range in a month with them on a Beretta 92G Vertec). I wanted them to be better. But what I found was that they didn't help my speed at close ranges, and they slowed me down substantially at longer distances or against tighter shots. The biggest annoyance for me, though, was that I wasn't getting the kind of visual feedback I wanted when shooting fast and up close (inside 10yd or so) ... it was much easier for me to jerk a shot because I wasn't getting the kind of red-light visual signal from the sights telling me it would be a miss.

A couple of questions:

When you analyze the shortcoming of the XS design, is there a single design feature that jumps out at you as being the culprit? Is it the dot front post or the shallow V rear?

When you used them previously, did you you the big dot front or the smaller dot front?

Does your opinion change when the scenario devolves to low light? Do you still believe notch and post has the edge in low light?

[varoadking]

Anyone have a negative reaction to XS Sights?

Compared to many of those that have chimed in on this subject, I'm a rank amature when it comes to speed shooting, but I've always seen them as a solution in search of a problem myself.

[ToddG]

When you analyze the shortcoming of the XS design, is there a single design feature that jumps out at you as being the culprit? Is it the dot front post or the shallow V rear?

I believe the rear sight is the primarily problem. As mentioned previously, it provides too little feedback during acquisition and sight press. The result is that it takes longer to guarantee accurate hits and you've got less indication of a bad hit.

A high-visibility front sight is a great thing, imho. I just choose to achieve it a different way that doesn't compromise on my marksmanship.


When you used them previously, did you you the big dot front or the smaller dot front?

They sent me both. The Big I used for about an hour and couldn't possibly work with for any kind of accuracy unless I was willing to slow way down, and it didn't do anything for my speed. The Normal/Small Dot was tolerable but after giving it an honest try (including using it at a major state championship) it clearly wasn't helping me up close even though it was hurting me on the distance/small shots.


Does your opinion change when the scenario devolves to low light? Do you still believe notch and post has the edge in low light?

I believe a laser is the way to go in low light, actually. But taking that out of the equation, yes, I feel like I do just fine in low light with my Warren 2-dot night sights.

And FWIW, the Ashley's (XS) I tried on the Vertec did have the tritium front & rear.

[PPGMD]

Because he sells them?

James Yeager supported XS Sights long before he started Tactical Response Gear. So his support is far from financial. Andy Stanford doesn't have a gear company, he doesn't receive any financial support from XS also support them (in fact he's the guy that convinced Jame Yeager to try them). So I think your comments are way off base.

I'm a fairly good shooter, but I've been giving XS Sights a try with my new Glock 19. Yes precision shots are harder, but I do notice a very small increase in speed over other night sights. I am moderately convinced, I am going to take a FOF course like proponents suggest before I make my final verdict on them.

Even if I find I like them they aren't the end all and be all of sights, I will still likely have Warren/Dawson (or similar) combination on my competition gun. In fact the only guns I think I will likely put them on are my carry guns.

[oregonshooter]

Setting aside the question of whether over-the-shoulder shots at a full run is a practical thing ...

Where did you get "over the shoulder from?" It was not from the video I linked to.





I'm not sure why you assume notch & post sights won't work just as well in that instance. Maybe they don't work for you but finding the front sight is finding the front sight. If the sight is in the notch it's a hit, and if the sight is out of the notch it's a miss. A sight system that gives more leeway than that fails to provide the green-light / red-light I want before I press the trigger.

When did I "assume" that NP would not work? Please show me the point in this thread that I said this? Is this your normal method of debate, to attribute false statements to your opposition?

My position has been based on my experience with Bigdots vs. Heinie Straight Eights.




Can you please provide these stats? I've seen a lot of OIS videos and don't recall much "over the shoulder while running in the opposite direction" shooting. I've done quite a bit of FOF training and haven't seen that, either. It's contrary to the natural human startle/stress response which involves squaring up on the perceived threat.

First off, the stats I was talking about were FBI shootings that you are well familiar with I'm sure, check their website for the download. More importantly I was making implication that most shootings will not be beyond short range and well within the ability of the BigDot system. Did you not understand my 3/3/3 comment earlier? The other point I made immediately after that comment was that stats can be twisted to fit any outcome you want and the implication was that I don't trust them anyway, even if they support my argument.




Have you actually timed your 40yd head shots with both notch & post and XS sights? I'd be very surprised if someone at your skill level was only a "fraction of a second" slower with the XS. But even if it is only half a second more, that's a lot of time for someone to pop into your line of fire, etc. in that scenario.

Now we are getting somewhere. No I have not. As stated earlier, my "speed" increase without loss of accuracy was based on a standards test (IDPA classifier) using a new weapon with the Bigdots and then my old one with them. It's on the first page.


Though to be honest, if you think you can make a 40yd head shot with a pistol on someone in a chaotic crowded mall shooting without risking a miss or hitting someone who pops into your line of fire, you're a far better shooter than I am.

The specifics of the shot were not given beyond the range and target size, you are adding your own "vision" of such a shot to my statment. Please don't do that, it confuses people.

You can't hit a 6" non-moving target at 40 yards taking your time? Would I want to make that shot, no.




Do folks outgrow it because of competition? In a sense, that is one big motivator. The more seriously you get into competition, the more skilled your "opponents" will be and the harder the shooting problems you'll see. When you start to realize that everyone beating you is using a different type of sight and they all think it's superior, that's a clue.

You are missing the point. This sighting system is not about competition which I believe I stated earlier.


Also, competitive shooters tend to be some of the more dedicated, serious practitioners when it comes to maximizing human performance with a pistol. As such, they work to achieve goals that are well beyond the typical ccw class or LE qualification.

Did you read any of my post? I gave you my IDPA/IPSC level.

A Grandmaster is a master of economy of motion, and the competition arena allows for the most minute speed advantage to distinguish this. You can easily build more realistic scenarios that takes the advantage away from that very focused skill set and have A-class shooters beating GMs. I've done it more than once and so have many other lower classed shooters. What is your IPSC/IDPA ranking?




The XS sights are working for you right now. There's nothing wrong with that, and no one here is calling you out because of it. Just understand that no one at a really high level -- in competition, SOF, SWAT, etc. -- is using them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "calling out" but you have stated that if they are working for me it is only because I have a deficiency that does not allow me to use a NP to its full capability. You conveniently made the argument that only an inexperienced shooter and people with poor eyesight will benefit from them, then when someone challenges that claim (like myself and others have before here) you claim they are only seeing improvement over the NP because they don't know how to use the NP correctly.

Makes for a tightly argument don't it? LOL


My guess (and please don't take this as a criticism, it's not meant that way) is the XS sights are helping you overcome a deficiency in your technique right now. Really, that's not a slam ... we all have deficiencies. If the XS sights are letting you track your sights better or get faster initial front sight acquisition, great. But once you internalize those skills, the benefit of the XS sights will diminish while the disadvantages will remain. That's the point at which you'll likely revert back to a more traditional sight picture.

Once again, I know how to track NP, I know how to shoot at speed without sights or using a slide index. The point is that the BigDot with it's shallow-v rear apeture, allows a refined tracking that you will not, can not get from a NP.

You are fooling yourself if you think that you can run at full speed (your video is far from it) and have that NP front post aligned at all inside a notch rear apeture. It is not happening. You are using your front post only.

You can test it easily by putting tape of the rear notch. Which set of runs gives you a better group and at same speed? They are likely the same, because you are using the same index (front post only) on both runs.


What was the distance there, two to four yards?

0-10yards it was marked on the ground and that was the range we were shooting all day. That mean you were shooting you "drive-by drill" at 20 yards? You didn't' mention the distance, looked like 7 yards to me.


I'd say the distance was twice as far away and the target was much smaller (5.5" circle). You'll have to take my word for it that I was using my notch & post sights.

At that speed and on a smooth flat surface doing the "shuffle" I believe you.



Respectfully, I think it's a mistake to assume that either NCPatrolAR or I don't care about dynamic reactive shooting. The danger you're running into is that's a line a lot of the Big Dot marketeers use ... that the XS sights are more about 'fighting' and anyone who doesn't like them has a different shooting interest.

I don't think it's an either/or situation. They are both tools IMO. I realize the shortcoming of the BigDot but feel that they makeup for them in areas that the NP fails. A "feeling" that will soon be put to the timer, beyond that on the IDPA classifier that it was already.



I agree 100% with your comments about assessing them. Get a timer, measure your hits.

I'm going to be doing a 400 round count test with both and my shooting partner may do it also for comparison. I'll be posting the test requirements on the forum shortly and asking for suggestions.



For the record, my opinion on the XS sights isn't borne solely from watching other shooters or reading about it online. :cool: Years ago I gave them a very honest try (putting thousands of rounds down range in a month with them on a Beretta 92G Vertec). I wanted them to be better. But what I found was that they didn't help my speed at close ranges, and they slowed me down substantially at longer distances or against tighter shots. The biggest annoyance for me, though, was that I wasn't getting the kind of visual feedback I wanted when shooting fast and up close (inside 10yd or so) ... it was much easier for me to jerk a shot because I wasn't getting the kind of red-light visual signal from the sights telling me it would be a miss.

You tested them by using a common test and recorded the times, or shot them for a while and did not like them? I'd like to see the test results if you still have them?

Inside 10 yards you should be shooting off index IMO and visual (tracking sights) is less of an issue than timing recoil.


I believe the rear sight is the primarily problem. As mentioned previously, it provides too little feedback during acquisition and sight press. The result is that it takes longer to guarantee accurate hits and you've got less indication of a bad hit.

I think this is your biggest problem with them. You are trying to use them like a NP. They will never be such.

Have you trained with or read DR. Middlebrooks at all?

Another controversial person, but he has the goods. For the guy that posted about the "Great One" I'm sure you are away that DR. beat the great one more than once? He also shoots with a slide index beyond most peoples abilities. If he shoots a sightless gun better than you or I, I would bet that he can shoot one with BigDots better also.

Would you tell him that his ability to do so is because they are compensating for his deficiency? LOL

I'll leave it at that as I can see from this post and previous ones that you have made up you mind. If you are game, we should both do the test I'll be posting soon and see how the numbers fall. I think they will tell a lot more about what is really happening then guesses and preconceived notions will.

[sff70]

I have no dog in this fight.

If a different tool makes a accomplishing my goals more efficient and effective, and it's murphy proof, then I want to be using it.

Thus, I've shot a XS big dot equipped G35, a G23, and a G27 to see what kind of results I could get with them.

In my own unscientific testing, I found that FOR ME, they didn't work as well as NP sights (Heinie, Novak).

My 2 cents.

YMMV

[NCPatrolAR]

A couple of questions:


When you used them previously, did you you the big dot front or the smaller dot front?

I started off using a Big Dot with the shallow V rear. When those didnt work out; I switched to a small dot wth a 10-8 rear sight that Dave Berryhill opened up for me. That didnt work out either.



Does your opinion change when the scenario devolves to low light? Do you still believe notch and post has the edge in low light?


For me; NP sights in an "8" format are the way to go in lowlight.

[NCPatrolAR]

James Yeager supported XS Sights long before he started Tactical Response Gear. So his support is far from financial. Andy Stanford doesn't have a gear company, he doesn't receive any financial support from XS also support them (in fact he's the guy that convinced Jame Yeager to try them). So I think your comments are way off base.



I believe you see numerous people bringing up the Yeager/Big Dot/money in the pocket thing for several reasons. One, the constant, over the top "selling" of XS products. Two; when a discussion about sights is instantly moved from a "fighting" forum to a "competition" forum when sights other than Big Dots are mentioned. Or when posts saying that Big Dots arent effective are either mocked and/or deleted; one might tend to get the impression that there is more than just a preference for the sights.


Might just be me though. :rolleyes:

[ToddG]

Where did you get "over the shoulder from?" It was not from the video I linked to.

Nor did that video show someone shooting at targets to the 5 or 7 o'clock positions. That was your description, and based on other posters' comments I'm not the only one who took it that way.


When did I "assume" that NP would not work? Please show me the point in this thread that I said this? Is this your normal method of debate, to attribute false statements to your opposition?

How about this statement: By "refined index on moving shots" I meant that when you are exploding off the line running at full speed away from the target to your 8-oclock or 4-oclock and trying to put good COM hits in at the same time, a NP traditional SP is not going to happen. (emphasis mine) That's post #22 on this thread.

oregonshooter, I have tried to be polite and mature while discussing this with you. I'd ask you calm down and do the same.


My position has been based on my experience with Bigdots vs. Heinie Straight Eights.

My position has been based on my experience with the XS sights vs. Trijicon vs. Meprolight vs. Heinie vs. Warren vs. Novak vs. I can't even count how many others, both in my hands and the hands of countless competitive, LE, and mil shooters.


First off, the stats I was talking about were FBI shootings that you are well familiar with I'm sure, check their website for the download.

You made a comment, after bring up the whole issue of shooting towards your 8 o'clock or 4 o'clock, that "Others may expect their fight to happen some other way, and I'm not saying that anything can't happen on the street, but stats support my position." Again, it's clear I wasn't the only person who read this to mean you had some statistics showing that people shot to their rear as a normal response.


More importantly I was making implication that most shootings will not be beyond short range and well within the ability of the BigDot system.

By that argument (and the 3/3/3 thing) one could as easily state that most shootings will be well within the ability of most people to index shoot. Depending on the circumstances, I'm probably not bringing my gun up to eye level with an attacker that is less than 10' away from me. I'd practically be handing him the gun.


The specifics of the shot were not given beyond the range and target size, you are adding your own "vision" of such a shot to my statment. Please don't do that, it confuses people.

You referenced an active shooter at the mall. If you think that will be a static wide-open shot, I'd humbly suggest you are the one that is adding a "vision" to the scenario. I'm quite confident most people understand that such an incident will not involve non-moving targets without numerous innocent people in front of, beside, and behind it.


You can't hit a 6" non-moving target at 40 yards taking your time? Would I want to make that shot, no.

Hitting a 6" non-moving target at 40yd with all the time in the world has no bearing on whether I think I could make a 40yd head shot during an "active mall shooter" incident. If you wanted to talk about making a static 40yd head shot with no time limit, that's what you should have said.

In an "active mall shooter" context, time is going to be a factor -- which was the point I made -- and so the extra time it takes to make an accurate long-range shot with the XS sights puts you further behind the power curve.



You are missing the point. This sighting system is not about competition which I believe I stated earlier.

You can't have it both ways, oregonshooter. You've repeatedly used your IDPA Classifer scores as demonstration that the sights are working better for you, as well as the fact that you are now winning your local club matches.

Furthermore, this whole "not about competition" thing is such a ridiculous red herring. Sights are sights. Shooting is shooting. The idea that one sighting system is inferior for everything in the world except shooting bad people under extreme stress is marketing hoopla. Heck, it's like the ammo companies that say, "Our ammo doesn't do well in gelatin tests but it has a magic property that causes it to stop bad guys in ways you just can't measure."

I'll say again: not a single military SOF unit (or any .mil entity at all, come to think of it), SWAT team (or any LE entity at all, come to think of it), or top-ranked competitive shooter I've ever dealt with uses XS sights. Continuing to fall back on the competition thing is just smoke.

The guy who designed the sights I use (Scott Warren) is not only a many-times national IDPA champion but also the head firearms instructor for a national asset counter-terrorism "SWAT" team. How many entries has the guy who developed the XS Big Dot done?


Did you read any of my post? I gave you my IDPA/IPSC level.

I thought competition wasn't an issue?


A Grandmaster is a master of economy of motion, and the competition arena allows for the most minute speed advantage to distinguish this. You can easily build more realistic scenarios that takes the advantage away from that very focused skill set and have A-class shooters beating GMs. I've done it more than once and so have many other lower classed shooters.

Would these "more realistic scenarios" involve things like static 40yd head shots? :cool:

Yes, you can purposely design a stage that minimizes some of the skills a GM has by removing things like setups, transitions, etc. Again, though, this is a red herring. It has nothing whatsoever to do with sights or how the GM shoots. Look at the standards stages at any major USPSA or IDPA match. It's not the A- or EX-class shooters who are winning those. Shooting is shooting.


What is your IPSC/IDPA ranking?

I've been a Master-class IDPA shooter for about 9 or 10 years. I think I got my third M-class rating in '04. If it's worth anything to you, my personal best on a legitimate Classifier (at a formal match) is 80.85, shooting my M&P9.


I'm not sure what you mean by "calling out" but you have stated that if they are working for me it is only because I have a deficiency that does not allow me to use a NP to its full capability.

And that's a fact. Sorry if you feel like, as an EX-class IDPA shooter, you have no deficiencies in your shooting technique.


You conveniently made the argument that only an inexperienced shooter and people with poor eyesight will benefit from them, then when someone challenges that claim (like myself and others have before here) you claim they are only seeing improvement over the NP because they don't know how to use the NP correctly.

Correct.

Again, this is why you don't see any top level shooters, whether by "top level" we mean mil, LE, or competition, using XS sights. Honestly, do you think you and Yeager have come upon some secret the rest of us just haven't heard about yet? Do you honestly think that well-funded .mil and SWAT units haven't had multiple opportunities to assess XS sights and found them wanting?


Once again, I know how to track NP, I know how to shoot at speed without sights or using a slide index. The point is that the BigDot with it's shallow-v rear apeture, allows a refined tracking that you will not, can not get from a NP.

The rear "v" of the XS system is anything but refined, that's the major problem.

Read what you wrote. First you say you know how to do it with "NP" sights, then you state the XS gives you something you "can not (sic) get from a NP." Well, I can get it from a "NP." So can lots of other folks. This is a clue. Sorry if you've decided to take it so personally.


You are fooling yourself if you think that you can run at full speed (your video is far from it) and have that NP front post aligned at all inside a notch rear apeture. It is not happening.

I didn't say my video was running at full speed, did I? It was the speed I felt comfortable moving where I could guarantee getting fast multiple hits in a 5.5" circle at about 6-8yd. Sorry if I didn't do well enough for you. :cool:

Where can we see that video of you running full speed and making hits at 25yd as you suggested in your earlier post?


You are using your front post only.

And you know this how exactly?

Now if what you meant is that you would only be using your front post under those circumstances, I'm willing to believe you. Again, that gets back to the skill thing.


0-10yards it was marked on the ground and that was the range we were shooting all day. That mean you were shooting you "drive-by drill" at 20 yards? You didn't' mention the distance, looked like 7 yards to me.

I watched that video multiple times. At what point do you think the shooter was anywhere NEAR 10yd from the target???


I don't think it's an either/or situation. They are both tools IMO. I realize the shortcoming of the BigDot but feel that they makeup for them in areas that the NP fails for me.

Fixed that for you.


You tested them by using a common test and recorded the times, or shot them for a while and did not like them? I'd like to see the test results if you still have them?

I had them on a gun that I shot extensively for 4-6 weeks, including a major match I flew cross-country to attend. I shot standard drills not to mention literally dozens of practice sessions. My rough estimate would be that I probably shot somewhere between 3,000 and 4,000 rounds through the gun in that time.

That was probably about seven years ago. I'd like to think I've learned quite a bit more about shooting, especially shooting fast under stress, since then. But even back then, it was very clear to me that I was not getting a measurable improvement from the XS sights, while there were definite drawbacks.

I don't have the raw data any more, I'm sorry. I did post it on the 'net at the time.

The major issues were all related to the lack of refinement available from the rear sight. At speed, I was more likely to drop a shot because it was harder to track and call the shots precisely; at distance, it took much more time to guarantee everything was lined up perfectly.


Inside 10 yards you should be shooting off index IMO and visual (tracking sights) is less of an issue than timing recoil.

Timing recoil? Shooting fast is about following your sights and working within acceptable visual feedback. If you are just "timing recoil" then your sights don't matter at all. "Timing recoil" is not the proper way to shoot fast and will eventually lead to the kind of plateau I mentioned previously ... the one where someone might think XS sights are better until they more properly learn how to track their sights. :rolleyes:


I think this is your biggest problem with them. You are trying to use them like a NP. They will never be such.



Have you trained with or read DR. Middlebrooks at all?

I know D.R., and there's a huge difference between beating Rob Leatham at an IDPA match or two and suggesting you know more about shooting than Rob Leatham. Since I was at those matches, I might just know a bit about what we're talking about.


If he shoots a sightless gun better than you or I, I would bet that he can shoot one with BigDots better also.

So because you want it to be so, with no evidence whatsoever, you assume it is so.

Here's a question for you, dude: does Middlebrooks use XS sights? :cool:


I'll leave it at that as I can see from this post and previous ones that you have made up you mind. If you are game, we should both do the test I'll be posting soon and see how the numbers fall. I think they will tell a lot more about what is really happening then guesses and preconceived notions will.

You get me a set of XS sights for an M&P and I'll happily perform any realistic test you want. I can even get hold of a complete spare slide so I can swap top-ends and do the tests side-by-side. Contrary to your supposition (and the position of so many other XS true believers), I'm not the antichrist just because I don't like them. Hard as it may be for you to accept, a whole lot of really knowledgeable, experienced, highly-trained shooters have given them a fair chance and found them lacking.

I'm happy to do so again.

[oregonshooter]

Todd,

There are too many twisting in your last post and no point in addressing them all, since I find you are not listening to what I have to say, but more interested in supporting your firmly held position.

You are a master at shooting and passive aggressive behavior, I'll give you that. I won't be buying your a new set of sights BTW. :p

That is me shooting, and the 10 yards was marked on the ground as I stated. Because you don't understand the affects of camera DOF you are calling me a liar? wow.

Now I see why Alpha gave up on this discussion in a previous thread, and I agree with him that you are very condescending at times.

-Later

[John_Wayne777]

:rolleyes:

Jumping the shark yet again.

I don't see any "distorting" going on in Todd's posts, bro.

If that was you shooting in the video...well...there's no way you were starting at 10 yards from the target. Perhaps at maximum distance (when you were off camera) you were 10 yards out, but the majority of the shots were closer than that...and the hits weren't that spectacular.

[Business_Casual]

Now I see why Alpha gave up on this discussion in a previous thread, and I agree with him that you are very condescending at times.

Buddy, don't go away mad; just go away.

M_P

[ToddG]

oregonshooter -- Since I've repeatedly said that I believe you when you say the sights are working better for you, I'm not really sure what else you want from me here. It sounds like you'll accept nothing short of total capitulation ... you take anything else as a close-minded affront. Given that I have quite a lot of experience and knowledge forming my opinion, I'm not just going to say "wow you're right" because you want me to.

I even offered to accept your challenge to compare the two side by side, using a methodology you create.

You made a large number of sometimes unconnected comments in your previous post. I responded to it point by point. If that makes my response "twisting" then let's take one specific point at a time. You pick.

And for the record, yes, I can be very condescending at times. It's a cross I've learned to bear. However, for future discussions -- and this applies to everyone in the thread -- making personal attacks is against the forum rules.

edited to add: And I just watched the video again. The shooter begins one step from the target and takes (generously) at most six steps backpedaling. There is no way that went past seven yards. And DOF in photography/videography has nothing to do with how far away something appears, it is a term of art relating to the area (in terms of distance) from the lens that is in focus. Given the tiny aperture on the video camera under harsh light, your depth of field was close to infinite and created no distance optical illusions.

[oregonshooter]

:rolleyes:

Jumping the shark yet again.

I don't see any "distorting" going on in Todd's posts, bro.

If that was you shooting in the video...well...there's no way you were starting at 10 yards from the target. Perhaps at maximum distance (when you were off camera) you were 10 yards out, but the majority of the shots were closer than that...and the hits weren't that spectacular.

Dude... reading is your friend. Use the search function on the page and you will see I said 0-10. How do you expect to understand what someone is saying when you can't read what they are writing?

[oregonshooter]

modern_pirate ,

Your comment is against the rules of the forum.

[oregonshooter]

Todd,

I was there. It ended at 10 yards. Roger Phillips was the instructor, he can tell you it ended at 10 yards. I remember because we made a point of looking.

What was your distance to those 5.5" driveby targets. It did look like 7 yards to me.

You made your conclusions 9-10 years ago if I read your post correctly. I doubt you care to re-evaluate them or you would have done so.

I will be re-evaluating the sights and there need or hinderance to what I want a set of sights to do for me in the near future (see this thread did do something!) but I'll ask one more clarification of you since you diagnosed the problem "the BigDots working because of my deficiency in shooting", what is the deficiency?

[NCPatrolAR]

Looking at that video; I do a very similar drill. I start about one foot away with a holster pistol. On the buzzer or at the fire command, I immediately start to back away (using a toe-heel roll) motion while drawing and putting rounds on the threat. I use both hands on the gun though. I do this to simulate being on a traffic stop and having to put rounds through a window in order to hit the suspect.

[John_Wayne777]

Dude... reading is your friend. Use the serch function on the page and you will see I said 0-10. How do you expect to understand what someone is saying when you can't read what they are writing?

My reading comprehension is just fine.

The general point being made is that you weren't doing the majority of that shooting at 10 yards...you were shooting fast at a big target at fairly close range. The results on the target weren't impressive.

If you had a nice tight cluster of shots dead center of the A zone shooting at that speed while moving, that would be another story. As it stands there's nothing in that video that shows earth shattering performance. There's nothing remarkable in that video, in that most of the people in this thread could probably do just as well or BETTER on the same drill using traditional sights.

Todd was shooting at a SMALLER target than you were...and I guarantee all his hits were kept within that acceptable zone, indicating that he was seeing enough of his sights to properly index the weapon and was properly manipulating the trigger, firing 5 shots in under 2 seconds. Five shots that were all within a target that appears to be smaller than the A zone of an IDPA target and that were probably grouped very closely together. Precision and speed....with NP sights.

On a general forum etiquette note, I'd suggest switching to decaf.

[ToddG]

oregon -- To quote a good friend of mine, you're testing my skills, dude.

First, don't make fun of a member's reading comprehension and then call out another member because you think he's breaking the rules. Let the Red Names (mods & staff) handle enforcement of the rules, please.

Second, I've asked Staff to remove the infraction points because, while you did violate the rules, you were also certainly right that I can be a condescending prick (my words, not yours) and I'd rather us continue to have an intelligent discussion than have you run out. Just, again, please keep the discussion to facts & opinions about the sights and shooting techniques rather than opinions about other people on the board.

Third, I have no doubt that the marking line on the range was at 10yd. If you went from 1yd to 10yd in six small backwards steps, I'd have to see that in person to believe it. Rather than tell me what you remember, go back and look at the video yourself. Do you really think you were 10yd (thirty feet) from the target?

Yes, I would guess the targets in the video of me were at about 7yd. I'm pretty sure I said "6-8yd" earlier. This of course doesn't account for lateral distance.

Fourth, I'm sorry if the opinion I drew years ago (I'd guess it was about seven years ago, give or take) is invalid for you because I do not go back and re-evaluate the sights on a regular basis. Though I did in fact offer to do exactly that, at my own expense in terms of time and ammo, if you send me a set of the sights.

Finally, without watching you shoot I couldn't diagnose a specific problem but from what you've described it sounds to me like you've reached a pretty common plateau in your shooting. You understand marksmanship fundamentals (can hit a small target at a good distance given time) and you are starting to make the gun go faster. But although you can recite things like "see what you need to see" and "sight continuum" you haven't really internalized what those things mean and do, so you are relying in part on rhythm (your comment about "timing recoil") and probably increasingly good recoil management skills to make the shots land where you want really fast up close. The Big Dot sights seem to make this easier because you're more aware of them in your peripheral vision, but they're not really playing any major role in aiming the gun (again, the "timing recoil" comment supports that).

I think there are enough folks on this board who have seen me shoot -- both up close & fast as well as at distance, in matches, even force-on-force -- that I've got a bit of credibility here. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass.

Not a single person here has told you to take the XS sights off your gun. No one has called you names or attacked you for using them. A bunch of people with more experience than you have told you they've tried them and found, in the long run, that notch & post sights of various conditions work better. If you believe you know better, have at it. I promise, you're not hurting my feelings. But if you want to continue to debate the pros & cons, expect others to do the same.

[oregonshooter]

Finally, without watching you shoot I couldn't diagnose a specific problem but from what you've described it sounds to me like you've reached a pretty common plateau in your shooting. You understand marksmanship fundamentals (can hit a small target at a good distance given time) and you are starting to make the gun go faster. But although you can recite things like "see what you need to see" and "sight continuum" you haven't really internalized what those things mean and do, so you are relying in part on rhythm (your comment about "timing recoil") and probably increasingly good recoil management skills to make the shots land where you want really fast up close. The Big Dot sights seem to make this easier because you're more aware of them in your peripheral vision, but they're not really playing any major role in aiming the gun (again, the "timing recoil" comment supports that)


Now that was constructive. I would tend to agree with you on most points.

Thank you for removing the "insult" demerit. I was about to ask you in PM if you truly felt I insulted you. I have not taken your harshness as insulting and would hope we both have thicker skin than that. I will be learning to phrase my questions and statements in a more diplomatic way in the future.

I still do not think you are getting my point, but it does not seem that this method of communication is going to change that.

I really do not agree with your stance that BigDots only work for the under-trained but we will agree to disagree.

I was not trying to impress anyone with the video posted. The main purpose of the video was to show the speed of movement I'm talking about, which is a little faster than the video. Your comparison video illustrated to me that we are not talking same "speed/accuracy" ratios and is what I believe is the biggest problem with our comparisons the sights.

I'll be interested to here what tests you feel are "street" worthy (another topic) and your explanation for them if you chose to participate in the thread.

As for not pointing out forum rule violations, I will leave that to you. I get tired of people coming into threads with nothing to add but "yeah what he said!" or "just go away!"

Even if you don't agree with me, at least I tried to make my point and create discussion on the topic.

[Blinking Dog]

Now I feel bad for starting this thread. Makes me feel like a kid watching his parents fight. :(

[oregonshooter]

Haha, I'm glad you did.

The only thing that results from not questioning your methods is complacency and dogma. I'd rather find out I'm wrong than to continue blindly.

[Sam]

What is this video that's everyone is talking about? among all the three pages of b.s. I can't find it.

How about a fresh link please.

[NCPatrolAR]

page 2, post #35.

[Sam]

Thanks Milfmasta.

[ToddG]

I really do not agree with your stance that BigDots only work for the under-trained but we will agree to disagree.

I'm not suggesting they don't work ... your shooting demonstrates they can work. I'm saying that they are not the best choice, and that if you have some of the shooting issues I indicated, the Big Dot is going to hinder your advancement rather than speed it up.


I'll be interested to here what tests you feel are "street" worthy (another topic) and your explanation for them if you chose to participate in the thread.

I'll pop over and read it, for sure.