View Full Version : Pelham police chief indicted for involuntary manslaughter in boy's machine-gun death
SinnFéinM1911
12-04-08, 15:09
Mass Live Link (http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/pelham_police_chief_indicted_i.html?category=Crime+category=Westfield)
SPRINGFIELD - Pelham Police Chief Edward Fleury was indicted for involuntary manslaughter Thursday for his role in the death of an 8-year-old Connecticut boy who shot himself accidentally at a Westfield gun show in October.
Domenico Spano, of New Milford., Conn., indicted Thursday for involuntary manslaughter in the machine gun death of 8-year-old Christopher K. Bazilj, is shown in this October 2005 photo with his son Michael, then 12, at the Westfield Sportsman's Club's annual machine gun shoot.Also indicted for involuntary manslaughter was the Westfield Sportsman's Club, where the death occurred, and two other individuals, identified in court records as Carl Giuffre, of Hartford, and Domenico Spano of New Milford, Conn.
Fleury and the sportsman's club were each also indicted on four counts of furnishing a machine gun to a person under 18. ....
Click link to read rest...
WOW ! I can't believe it !!
SeriousStudent
12-04-08, 15:42
It's Massachusetts, and there is a district attorney involved. I believe it. I am curious as to when he is up for re-election.
It's a sad thing. Prayers sent (again) for the deceased child.
The range was clearly negligent in allowing an 8-year old to fire a FA micro Uzi without proper spotting. It has already been posted in various forums that proper FA training involves an initial mag load of only a few rounds, and that the spotter should stand alongside the shooter with his hand covering the weapon in such a way that he can take control if it starts to get away from the shooter.
Honestly, I don't know if that's really how it should be done, but it makes perfect sense. And the 8 year old was being supervised by a 15 year old minor.
But I don't know how responsible the police chief was, or the people that supplied the weapons.
Regardless of how you feel about gun rights, a little boy died because he was placed in a situation that he wasn't old enough or experienced enough to handle. This accident was completely preventable if basic safety precautions had been taken, and people had put a little thought into what they were doing beforehand.
CarlosDJackal
12-04-08, 16:12
I'm a bit confused, what was the Police Chief's role in this particular tragic incident? :confused:
Never mind, they made it sound in that poorly written article as if the Police Department had anything to do with the shoot. But as it turns out the Chief owned the company that co-sponsored the event.
SinnFéinM1911
12-04-08, 16:30
I'm a bit confused, what was the Police Chief's role in this particular tragic incident? :confused:
Never mind, they made it sound in that poorly written article as if the Police Department had anything to do with the shoot. But as it turns out the Chief owned the company that co-sponsored the event.
I have personally know the Chief (the one of the other person charged) for a few years and have attended this event for a couple as well. The Chief is the Sponsor of the event. The town he is Chief in is about a 25 minute drive from where this shoot was located.
I think this was more of a witch hunt then a legal case. Its a tragedy for everyone.
I have personally know the Chief (the one of the other person charged) for a few years and have attended this event for a couple as well. The Chief is the Sponsor of the event. The town he is Chief in is about a 25 minute drive from where this shoot was located.
I think this was more of a witch hunt then a legal case. Its a tragedy for everyone.
That's what I smell as well. If you can't figure out who to charge, charge everyone.
SingleStacker45
12-04-08, 18:14
So not only does he have to live with the guilt of the boy dying on his watch but now his career and the rest of his life will be in ruins too. What good does that do?
Mule
Well, if he broke laws and that directly led to the death of a child than he should be prosecuted, shouldn't he? If letting a minor shoot a FA weapon is illegal then he broke the law, right? I mean, we keep saying there are enough gun laws on the books and we should start enforcing the ones we have...
And even if he isn't criminally convicted, a civil lawsuit for gross negligence and wrongful death on the part of the range and the providers of the FA weapons would most likely be filed, and most likely won by the plaintiff. The burden in a civil suit is not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but the lesser standard of "the preponderance of the evidence". That means if there was a 51% chance his negligent actions led to the death, he is liable.
Go ahead, put a full auto Mini Uzi in the hands of an 8 year old and see if he can handle it. If he shoots himself or someone else, just say "oops, I feel really bad about it" and that will absolve you of accountability.
I agree the whole thing sucks, and before it's over his life and the lives of those around him will be ruined. I'll bet he sincerely regrets letting a lack of proper supervision cause the death of a little boy. But that's still not an excuse. This was not just a random accident, but a preventable death if people in charge had just shown a damn bit of common sense.
Don Robison
12-04-08, 18:55
The range was clearly negligent in allowing an 8-year old to fire a FA micro Uzi without proper spotting. It has already been posted in various forums that proper FA training involves an initial mag load of only a few rounds, and that the spotter should stand alongside the shooter with his hand covering the weapon in such a way that he can take control if it starts to get away from the shooter.
Honestly, I don't know if that's really how it should be done, but it makes perfect sense. And the 8 year old was being supervised by a 15 year old minor.
But I don't know how responsible the police chief was, or the people that supplied the weapons.
Regardless of how you feel about gun rights, a little boy died because he was placed in a situation that he wasn't old enough or experienced enough to handle. This accident was completely preventable if basic safety precautions had been taken, and people had put a little thought into what they were doing beforehand.
How do you feel about the dad not being charged?
Jesus fu@%&$g Christ!! As if the family and everybody hasn't suffered enough!!! It was a tragic accident. I'm sure that the boy's family and all who was involved is torn up over this and that should be punishment enough. Leave the fricken courts out of it!!:mad::mad:
How do you feel about the dad not being charged?
It depends on his level of knowledge about the situation. Clearly he shouldn't have selected a Mini Uzi for his son to shoot, and probably shouldn't have brought him there to shoot anything. If anything an 8 year old should have been nor more than a spectator. But if he was given no reason to believe there was a danger, it's possible he had no clue what could happen.
Let's say I pay a carnival worker to belt my kid in a ride and latch the door properly, and he fails to do so, or the ride has a mechanical failure, and my child falls out and is killed, should I be charged? I don't think so.
Now let's say my child is too small for the safety system to restrain him properly. Not being an expert on rides, I don't realize this and I ask the attendant to put him on the ride and buckle him in. The attendant fails to tell me the child is too small, and during the ride he slips out of the restraint and is killed. Am I responsible? Again, no.
Now, let's say there is a height restriction and my child doesn't meet it. I am aware of this and ask for him to be placed on the ride anyway. The attendant says nothing and the same thing happens. We are both responsible.
Last case, let's say the attendant tells me the child is too small, I insist he make an exception and he does. Same thing happens. We are both responsible.
The last two cases put questionable legal liability on the parent, because of deliberately ignored warnings. But I would venture to say that in most cases, only the carnival attendant would be held legally liable. It's is there responsibility to enforce their own safety rules.
theJanitor
12-04-08, 19:29
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=20824&highlight=dies
Don Robison
12-04-08, 19:35
It depends on his level of knowledge about the situation.
He brought his 8 year old to shoot machine guns he is no less responsible for what happened than those being charged, he is possibly bears more responsibility since he freely brought his kid.
IMHO, I think the charges are BS and a political move for the DA. This was a tragic accident that is being turned into a witch hunt of blame.
YMMV
He brought his 8 year old to shoot machine guns he is no less responsible for what happened than those being charged, he is possibly bears more responsibility since he freely brought his kid.
IMHO, I think the charges are BS and a political move for the DA. This was a tragic accident that is being turned into a witch hunt of blame.
YMMV
I wish this type of thing would never happen. It all comes down to the individual. Everyone on a range is a Range Safety Officer and can call "cease fire!!" if a safety violation is observed. God help those involved.
dog
Jesus fu@%&$g Christ!! As if the family and everybody hasn't suffered enough!!! It was a tragic accident. I'm sure that the boy's family and all who was involved is torn up over this and that should be punishment enough. Leave the fricken courts out of it!!:mad::mad:
This is as short-sighted a comment as one will find anywhere, ever. The negligence was almost beyond compare. That coming from someone who was shooting at 8. Thankfully, neither my father, nor the other adults around me, who did possess class III weapons, ever gave me one to fire. With a full clip no less!
Pathetic.
I think this was more of a witch hunt then a legal case. Its a tragedy for everyone.
You hit the nail on the head. Bennett(went to school with his oldest son) is a PITA.
Because we distance ourselves from death as a collective society nowadays, (nursing homes, assisted living, hospitals, butchers, grocery stores etc.) we are designed to be extremely uncomfortable with the happening by itself, and more so with there being no one to blame.
People die. Sometimes tragically. People **** up. Sometimes really really bad. Not everyone has to go to jail for it every time. There are larger fish to fry, which by itself doesn't absolve the negligence or minimize the actions of those involved, but........ come on. Why not charge the city, and the county, then the state for letting something like this go on. From what I understand, it isn't like the father, chief etc are flippant about the ordeal. I'm confident they get what they did wrong.
The idea behind prison is rehabilitation right? I mean that's what is crammed down our throats everyday. I doubt that father, that chief, or those people will EVER forget this. I'd say a similar situation is likely to never happen again with those involved. Isn't that whats important?
The social stigma the father and those "responsible" are going to be facing will be sheer torture. Prison would actually shield him from that in a way.
My opinion is based upon what I know of the case, which is admittedly not much. If I'm missing some tremendous detail that any of you would think would cause me, a father and husband myself, to change my mind I welcome the information.
Hug your children men. I've lost a 7 year old niece already this year.
The idea behind prison is rehabilitation right? I mean that's what is crammed down our throats everyday. I doubt that father, that chief, or those people will EVER forget this. I'd say a similar situation is likely to never happen again with those involved. Isn't that whats important?
Of course, but you are still looking past the relevant facts.
As an avid shooter I will again say that this is reprehensible. Someone certainly could go to jail, both for their horrendous judgment as well as stupidity and disregard for the life of an innocent child. Tell me, does it take a rocket scientist to foresee trouble with an 8 year old firing a full auto Uzi pistol? Should mature, educated firearm enthusiasts even need to debate this point??
Hug your children men. I've lost a 7 year old niece already this year.
I hug my 5 year old son countless times each day, as each day with him is a gift.
God Bless your niece.
As much as I am against frivolous lawsuits especially as it relates to the 2nd amendment this was situation which could have been prevented and there was negligence involved. All of you guys screaming that it's wrong, or they have suffered are missing the point. There was a lack of supervision and they were irresponsible for not ensuring that a properly trained and QUALIFIED Range Safety Officer was on the line. Not a 15 year old child. Therefore they were negligent because this could have been prevented. We needn't wonder when people attack gun owners as irresponsible when stuff like this hapens.
Also, for those of you who live in that area are select fire weapons legal in Massachusetts?
SinnFéinM1911
12-05-08, 08:16
Also, for those of you who live in that area are select fire weapons legal in Massachusetts?
In Massachusetts the only way to own a "Select Fire Weapon", you need to apply for a "Machine Gun" license. Only the Chief of Police in that (you reside in) town/city can approve that. Not many (Chiefs) approve them at all; and even fewer are given out.
So my next question is; Was that Micro Uzi legal? I'll assume that since the one guy was a chief of police he was able to sign off on his own paperwork.
In Massachusetts the only way to own a "Select Fire Weapon", you need to apply for a "Machine Gun" license. Only the Chief of Police in that (you reside in) town/city can approve that. Not many (Chiefs) approve them at all; and even fewer are given out.
This whole situation is ****ed! Fluery is a great guy, he taught a few of my classes when I was in the academy. The city of Springfield (Which lies in hampden county and which Bennet is DA for) is so far ****ed it unreal. Violent crime is throught the roof, (mostly stabbings) and he is worried about this shit. It has been agreed upon but it really is a witch hunt, looking for blame some one for a bad situation. Soon enough we are going to see lawsuits that indicts the parents for not making the child wear a helmet when he/she cracks thier skull open on thier bicycle.
Im so ****ing sick of this State.
-DM-
So my next question is; Was that Micro Uzi legal? I'll assume that since the one guy was a chief of police he was able to sign off on his own paperwork.
So far the story goes is that one of the indicted from CT brought the Uzi and Fluery told him the whole thing was legal.
-DM-
Ah ha. I must have missed that. So what we have is a guy who brought a Micro Uzi across state lines to a shooting event based upon the word of the Chief of Police. Am I the only one who sees something wrong here? I still fail how to see how this is a witch hunt. People acted irresponsibly (no line supervision) and an 8 year old child lost his life. In addition we have an idiot who brought his NFA weapon across state lines on the word of a Chief of Police.
Someone correct me if I am wrong. Are you not required to file paperwork with the BATFE prior to doing this? How many of you would be pissed off if some new legislation was introduced because of these idiots. If I am wrong here please let me know.
So far the story goes is that one of the indicted from CT brought the Uzi and Fluery told him the whole thing was legal.
-DM-
Am I the only one who sees something wrong here? I still fail how to see how this is a witch hunt.
No, you are certainly not the only one, as I agree with you 100%. This is holding people who should have known better responsible for their unbelievably stupid and irresponsible actions that led to the completely and totally needless death of a child.
Some here sound like they will start defending drunk drivers who kill because no one meant to hurt anyone and everyone feels real bad. Plus those involved have had their lives ruined anyway, so let it be.
Get a grip, folks. There was trouble written all over that scene. If I were there that day, I would have walked up to someone and asked what the hell was going on if I saw that child shooting that weapon while being "supervised" by another child. That's not great hindsight, it is a fact. No doubt about it.
SinnFéinM1911
12-05-08, 10:49
No, you are certainly not the only one, as I agree with you 100%. This is holding people who should have known better responsible for their unbelievably stupid and irresponsible actions that led to the completely and totally needless death of a child.
Some here sound like they will start defending drunk drivers who kill because no one meant to hurt anyone and everyone feels real bad. Plus those involved have had their lives ruined anyway, so let it be.
Get a grip, folks. There was trouble written all over that scene. If I were there that day, I would have walked up to someone and asked what the hell was going on if I saw that child shooting that weapon while being "supervised" by another child. That's not great hindsight, it is a fact. No doubt about it.
Go to KNOB Creek and you will have a weekends worth of work cut out for you.... SAME EXACT type of event...
Go to KNOB Creek and you will have a weekends worth of work cut out for you.... SAME EXACT type of event...
If you are implying that by going to this particular range/event, I would be witness to adults allowing children under 10 to fire machine pistols on a regular basis, supervised by young teens, then apparently there are lot's of stupid and negligent members there.
Wouldn't be my cup of tea.
SinnFéinM1911
12-05-08, 11:09
One thing that I didn’t see was the Waiver EVERYONE has to sign to get in. When I attended this event years ago, you had to sign one waiver ot get it and a completely different one to shoot. AND if you were under 18, your PARENT/GUARDIAN had to allow you to fire.
The one time that I went to Knob Creek I remember the waiver as well as the fact that they had numerous people on the line supervising. I really don't care if every machine gun shoot or gathering is ****ed up like a football bat. If we really care about our 2nd Amendment rights we will do what is right to ensure that others who are not so vigiliant screw it up for us.
One thing that I didn’t see was the Waiver EVERYONE has to sign to get in. When I attended this event years ago, you had to sign one waiver ot get it and a completely different one to shoot. AND if you were under 18, your PARENT/GUARDIAN had to allow you to fire.
So I just finshed watching a report an ABC40 out of Springfield, and it basicly said that there is more intrest in this story globly and nationly than it is here(mass).
I would hope that Fleury's lawyer gets a change of venue to ethier Berkshire or Franklin county IMHO.
I know I can't spell.
Another example of why Liberals are winning. We happily throw our own people under the bus in hopes of pleasing the other side. Whole bunch of bad decisions lead up to a tragedy, that's life, it happens everyday. Oh, wait I need to feel better, let's pass more laws and prosecute someone.
The law, if anyone is interested.
Chapter 140: Section 130. Sale or furnishing weapons or ammunition to aliens or minors; penalty; exceptions
Section 130. Whoever sells or furnishes a rifle, shotgun or ammunition to any alien eighteen years of age or older who does not hold a permit card issued to him under section one hundred and thirty-one H or, except as provided in this section or section one hundred and thirty-one E, whoever sells or furnishes any alien or any person under eighteen years of age a rifle, shotgun, machine gun or ammunition, or whoever sells or furnishes to any person under 21 years of age a firearm or large capacity rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor shall have his license to sell firearms, rifles, shotguns, machine guns and or ammunition revoked and shall not be entitled to apply for such license for ten years from the date of such revocation and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000, or by imprisonment in a state prison for not more than ten years or by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two and one-half years, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Nothing in this section or section one hundred and thirty-one E shall be construed to prohibit a parent or guardian from allowing his child or ward, who has not attained age fifteen, the supervised use of a rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor, according to the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, nor from furnishing such child or ward, who has attained age fifteen, with a rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon or ammunition; provided, however, that said child or ward, being fifteen years of age or older, has been issued a valid firearm identification card or alien permit to possess a rifle or shotgun which is in his possession. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit an instructor from furnishing rifles or shotguns or ammunition therefor to pupils; provided, however, that said instructor has the consent of a parent or guardian of a pupil under the age of eighteen years.
Another example of why Liberals are winning. We happily throw our own people under the bus in hopes of pleasing the other side.
This is nothing more than blind loyalty. Liberals can in fact legitimately bash us as a result of this reckless stupidity. I would never want to be lumped in with such negligent people, and I would never stand by their decisions.
Whole bunch of bad decisions lead up to a tragedy, that's life, it happens everyday. Oh, wait I need to feel better, let's pass more laws and prosecute someone.
Ridiculous. The exact same logic used to justify any form of criminal negligence. Even more so a DWI fatality.
I would expect a hell of a lot better from my fellow firearm enthusiasts, not to mention my fellow parents.
This is nothing more than blind loyalty. Liberals can in fact legitimately bash us as a result of this reckless stupidity. I would never want to be lumped in with such negligent people, and I would never stand by their decisions.
Ridiculous. The exact same logic used to justify any form of criminal negligence. Even more so a DWI fatality. Probably why they passed the law in the first place, to prevent this result.
I would expect a hell of a lot better from my fellow firearm enthusiasts, not to mention my fellow parents.
Well, that's a little ridiculous. They carry that mantra everywhere they go. "IN THE NAME OF SAFETY!!"
I've already shared my opinion, but this just struck me as funny coming from a fellow firearms enthusiast.
EDIT. I didn't see your question posed to me in the other response. My apologies.
No your right, it certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee problems with an 8 year and an UZI. However, it does take superhuman powers to keep your eyes on your children 100% of the time. I'm borderline paranoid when it comes to my daughter and even I lose sight of her every now and then. Now again, this is showing my ignorance on the case, was the father in the vicinity of the child? Did he see this happen with his own eyes?
Safetyhit, I suppose you support bans on hunting by minors as well. A little boy was just killed in a hunting accident the other day.
I'm not saying people in Mass should break their silly laws, but I'm sure not going to support their silly laws myself as some here seem to be. I also like the clever use of DUI.:rolleyes: I know another group with tactics such as those.
Safetyhit, I suppose you support bans on hunting by minors as well.
Nope. I started hunting at age 10 with a side-by-side 410 shotgun. Would you relate the manageability of my 2 shot 410 to that of a machine pistol? I wouldn't, and I suspect many others here wouldn't either. That regardless of whether they are for or against prosecution.
I'm not saying people in Mass should break their silly laws, but I'm sure not going to support their silly laws myself as some here seem to be. I also like the clever use of DUI.:rolleyes: I know another group with tactics such as those.
Silly laws? The boy is dead for the exact reason they enacted that or similar laws. Take the blinders off, my friend.
I can't believe I have to explain the reckless stupidity of this needless tragedy to experienced gun owners. It never ever should have happened that way. If a capable adult was firmly holding the weapon with the boy, then this almost certainly never would have transpired. Even that would seem like a bit much to me for an 8 year old, but not nearly as bad as having one child supervise another younger child.
Come on, guys. You must know how horribly negligent this particular instance was. We, as a gun community, can't just dismiss anyones negligence simply because we believe in the same cause. It will cause a lack of credibility, and it's wrong.
Nope. I started hunting at age 10 with a side-by-side 410 shotgun. Would you relate the manageability of my 2 shot 410 to that of a machine pistol? I wouldn't, and I suspect many others here wouldn't either. That regardless of whether they are for or against prosecution.
Silly laws? The boy is dead for the exact reason they enacted that or similar laws. Take the blinders off, my friend.
I can't believe I have to explain the reckless stupidity of this needless tragedy to experienced gun owners. It never ever should have happened that way. If a capable adult was firmly holding the weapon with the boy, then this almost certainly never would have transpired. Even that would seem like a bit much to me for an 8 year old, but not nearly as bad as having one child supervise another younger child.
Come on, guys. You must know how horribly negligent this particular instance was. We, as a gun community, can't just dismiss anyones negligence simply because we believe in the same cause. It will cause a lack of credibility, and it's wrong.
I don't think anyone is arguing negligence was absent. At least I'm not.
Nope. I started hunting at age 10 with a side-by-side 410 shotgun. Would you relate the manageability of my 2 shot 410 to that of a machine pistol? I wouldn't, and I suspect many others here wouldn't either. That regardless of whether they are for or against prosecution.
Silly laws? The boy is dead for the exact reason they enacted that or similar laws. Take the blinders off, my friend.
I can't believe I have to explain the reckless stupidity of this needless tragedy to experienced gun owners. It never ever should have happened that way. If a capable adult was firmly holding the weapon with the boy, then this almost certainly never would have transpired. Even that would seem like a bit much to me for an 8 year old, but not nearly as bad as having one child supervise another younger child.
Come on, guys. You must know how horribly negligent this particular instance was. We, as a gun community, can't just dismiss anyones negligence simply because we believe in the same cause. It will cause a lack of credibility, and it's wrong.
Many multiples of children/adults are killed at the hands of careless hunters compared with idiots doing stupid stuff at MG shoots. Certainly we must change this, for the children. Don't you agree? I'm not seeing how one isolated act of negligence is greater than multiple acts of negligence every year by hunters. Clearly children can be saved by simple outlawing hunting. Do you disagree that children will be saved by outlawing hunting?
Do you disagree that children will be saved by outlawing hunting?
Again, the example of the safety comparison between a 2 shot 410 and a machine pistol? Not relevant to you??
But OK, you win. There should be no legal ramifications for allowing an 8 year old to fire a machine pistol while being supervised by a 15 year old. Fortunately, I have more sense than to continue down this ridiculous road.
And it doesn't require exceptional intelligence to see that if as many 8 year olds were out firing machine pistols while improperly supervised as there are minors hunting, then there would be a lot more dead 8 year olds. The comparison is very weak and idealistic.
hatt,
You are forgetting just a few things. It is the law of the state regardles of how silly you think it is. And for the record as far as I know it applies only to machine guns and not hunting weapons. It has zero to do with the children and everything to do with not giving the other side any more additional ammunition to further their cause. So I guess you have no problem with gun onwers being reckless and therefore subjecting us to more undeserved scrutiny.
Many multiples of children/adults are killed at the hands of careless hunters compared with idiots doing stupid stuff at MG shoots. Certainly we must change this, for the children. Don't you agree? I'm not seeing how one isolated act of negligence is greater than multiple acts of negligence every year by hunters. Clearly children can be saved by simple outlawing hunting. Do you disagree that children will be saved by outlawing hunting?
You guys carry on then. It appear two people were charged for simply bringing MGs to the shoot. I wonder what the story is with that. Clearly they should have been constantly staring at their guns and are deserving of felonies and potential long term jail sentences because they were not. People who bring guns to any sort of shoot and let other people shoot them better beware.
Also indicted for involuntary manslaughter was the Westfield Sportsman's Club, where the death occurred, and two other individuals, identified in court records as Carl Giuffre, of Hartford, and Domenico Spano of New Milford, Conn.
Hampden District Attorney William M. Bennett said Giuffre and Spano supplied the machine guns used at the sportman's club, but he said Fleury had assured them the action was legal.
You guys carry on then. It appear two people were charged for simply bringing MGs to the shoot. I wonder what the story is with that.
So do I. But that is not where my issue lies, anyway. Personally, I would blame those directly responsible, not those in-directly responsible.
If the above is what some meant by witch hunt, I will say that maybe there is validity there.
SinnFéinM1911
12-05-08, 15:18
Just for Shits and Giggles, what do all of you think is the correct age to fire these types of weapons ?
I think it was already pointed out that there may have been an issue with the legalities of bringing the weapon into the state.
I guess you just don't get it. Here is an excerpt from the RSO letter that I received while in the military. maybe this will help.
As an RSO you are expected to carry out your duties diligently and professionally. You are reminded that as a Range Safety Officer it is your responsibility to ensure that all pre-fire inspections have been carried out, that all range safety procedures are set in place, all range hazards have been identified and corrected, and that only authorized personnel are present on the range. In addition it is your responsibility to ensure that all ammunition is accounted for and that the correct type of ammunition is present for training. Safety is paramount during all range training. Take your responsibility seriously to ensure safe and productive training is accomplished. You shall maintain this qualification while assigned to this Command or until otherwise rescinded.
You guys carry on then. It appear two people were charged for simply bringing MGs to the shoot. I wonder what the story is with that. Clearly they should have been constantly staring at their guns and are deserving of felonies and potential long term jail sentences because they were not. People who bring guns to any sort of shoot and let other people shoot them better beware.
It would depend on the child. I know a few 15 year olds that act like 10 year olds. My 13 year old is responsible and I would let him shoot it. But, I would also be right there with him ensuring that he knew exactly what was happening.
Just for Shits and Giggles, what do all of you think is the correct age to fire these types of weapons ?
I have mixed feeling about this. If people are charged for negligence that is fair and reasonable to me, although I understand that the father, as well as the 15 year old supervising, were not charged and it seems to me both were as negligent as the Chief of Police, who owns the club, the club and two individuals who brought the mini-Uzi to the range, who were charged.
But a quote from the DA bothers me.
A Micro Uzi is made by and for the Israeli Armed Forces and is intended to meet the operational needs of Israeli Special Forces," Bennett said, noting that the weapon has a rate of fire of 20 to 25 rounds per second. "It is not a hunting weapon.
What relevance does that have? It worries me that he will have an anti-gun agenda. I think whoever made the decision to let an improperly supervised young boy shoot is negligent. Did the owners of the Uzi make the decision, or allow it? They should be charged if they did that, not just for bringing the Uzi.
Automatic weapons are legal, with the appropriate permits, in Mass. They apparently brought in Uzi legally. There is, I think if I read the story right, a law that prohibits minors from accessing a machine gun in Mass, and maybe that is the law but I don't think charging them for that, if that is the charge, is right.
I think it was already pointed out that there may have been an issue with the legalities of bringing the weapon into the state.
I guess you just don't get it. Here is an excerpt from the RSO letter that I received while in the military. maybe this will help.
As an RSO you are expected to carry out your duties diligently and professionally. You are reminded that as a Range Safety Officer it is your responsibility to ensure that all pre-fire inspections have been carried out, that all range safety procedures are set in place, all range hazards have been identified and corrected, and that only authorized personnel are present on the range. In addition it is your responsibility to ensure that all ammunition is accounted for and that the correct type of ammunition is present for training. Safety is paramount during all range training. Take your responsibility seriously to ensure safe and productive training is accomplished. You shall maintain this qualification while assigned to this Command or until otherwise rescinded.
Bro, please put me on ignore or something. You keep bringing up all this legal stuff and yet have advocated breaking the law on at least TWO different activities because THEY don't know. I don't recall any charges brought forth for illegal machine guns and state lines and other nonsense.
Dude, WTF are you talking about?
Bro, please put me on ignore or something. You keep bringing up all this legal stuff and yet have advocated breaking the law on at least TWO different activities because THEY don't know. I don't recall any charges brought forth for illegal machine guns and state lines and other nonsense.
exitinyourhead
12-05-08, 18:15
Just for Shits and Giggles, what do all of you think is the correct age to fire these types of weapons ?
I think the proper question is... How many parents are qualified to make this decision?
I've let my children shoot, but my hand is always on the weapon and they get one round at a time. This is with one child at a time. One on one supervision with physical contact by an adult (me) at all times. Just because some parent thinks his 8 year old can shoot a machine gun (maybe they insist their own child is 8 but is mature like a 20 year old) doesn't mean that child can do it.
I'm not sure it's ever a good idea to tell somebody how to raise their children but there are a bunch of parents out there doing a really horrible job at it. This guy thought his 8 year old could shoot a automatic mini uzi without a problem by himself and he was, sadly, incorrect.
I don't really have an issue with arrests or lawsuits. As far as I'm concerned, justice anymore only serves the interests of those making the charges, and not about right and wrong. We have to be more responsible as gun owners and parents. I can argue with anybody all day that guns rights are important vs. criminals obtaining and using guns. When somebody throws an argument with this as content it's a little bit more difficult. Speaking of difficult, somebody mentioned previously how hard it was to get a law enforcement official to sign off on a permit for full auto. I'll bet it doesn't get any easier after this. If we don't police ourselves and our children, the government will GLADLY do this for us.
Prayers for the family. It's always sad to hear of a child dying before he has a chance to make his own decisions and create his own destiny. Especially when he doesn't get the chance because somebody made a poor decision who's responsibility it was to keep that child safe.
You guys carry on then. It appear two people were charged for simply bringing MGs to the shoot. I wonder what the story is with that. Clearly they should have been constantly staring at their guns and are deserving of felonies and potential long term jail sentences because they were not. People who bring guns to any sort of shoot and let other people shoot them better beware.
I wasn't going to post in here because this is borderline discussion and more of argument. anyways the bold print in your statement is an absolute. If these guys weren't aware or unconcerned with who was shooting their weapons they shouldn't have them and SHOULD be held accountable. I was at a range this week where a guy was letting his wife just dump mags and let me tell you, after she shot a box of ammo on the table and the carrier that holds the target, I honestly almost shit my pants. not to mention it was like an 8'' barrel dumping 7.62 and the rounds seamed hot so it was dangerous and had anyone been harmed I would have expected him to be charged for negligence.
Not everyone has to go to jail for it every time.
I agree. People make mistakes and sometimes execute poor judgement. Often times there are circumstances, like drugs or alcohol, that clearly put a person in what I would consider a state of criminal negligence.
But sending someone to prison for simply having poor judgement with no harm intended, I have mixed feelings. Part of me wants the people punished, part of me says it's a horrible, horrible accident and the best thing that can come out of it is that we all learn so hopefully it doesn't happen again.
My 8 year old is responsible on the range, but he's a small guy and I wouldn't let him shoot anything full auto. I just recently started putting more than one round in the magazine.
Overall, it just sucks for everyone involved.
Don Robison
12-05-08, 20:45
Ah ha. I must have missed that. So what we have is a guy who brought a Micro Uzi across state lines to a shooting event based upon the word of the Chief of Police. Am I the only one who sees something wrong here? I still fail how to see how this is a witch hunt. People acted irresponsibly (no line supervision) and an 8 year old child lost his life. In addition we have an idiot who brought his NFA weapon across state lines on the word of a Chief of Police.
Someone correct me if I am wrong. Are you not required to file paperwork with the BATFE prior to doing this? How many of you would be pissed off if some new legislation was introduced because of these idiots. If I am wrong here please let me know.
After reading that they had a 15 year old acting as the safety observor/line supervision I agree with you that this thing is screwed up on many levels. When I made my first comments I wasn't aware of that piece of information that has since been reported. I do still feel that the father bears a great portion of the responsibility. I would never let my kids be supervised on a range by a 15 year old kid.
Don Robison
12-05-08, 20:50
It would depend on the child. I know a few 15 year olds that act like 10 year olds. My 13 year old is responsible and I would let him shoot it. But, I would also be right there with him ensuring that he knew exactly what was happening.
Same here, I had my girls on the range with me when we were doing team morale shoots and let them shoot anything they could field strip and reassemble. Right or wrong that was always my criteria with them. If they weren't interested enough to learn how to clean it and see how it worked, they weren't interested enough to shoot it.
My oldest never showed much interest, but my youngest shot nearly everything we did.
I can't read today....
I was under the impression the father was being charged.. My fault.
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